Do you think self defense laws should be updated to also allow people to defend their businesses and property against looters?

[ADFSDF1996]

Self defense laws vary by country and state but most self defense laws technically allow you to defend yourself and your family from aggressors. While the castle doctrine does technically allows a person to themselves, their family and also their property from home invaders. People still get in trouble for upholding the castle doctrine especially in “donkey” states. “Elephant” states tend to be slightly more lenient when it comes to self defense laws including the castle doctrine but even then, defending property and or businesses are not usually considered “acceptable” reasons for self defense by the authorities.

Arguably the main reason why these riots have gotten so bad is because many places don’t allow people to defend their stores. Yes there are technically (on paper) laws that also allow people to defend their property but again, these laws are rarely rarely respected by the authorities since defending property or businesses aren’t considered acceptable reasons for self defense by the authorities especially in “donkey” states.

It’s also worth mentioning that self defense doesn’t always mean lethal force, self defense can also be non lethal (tasers, pepper spray, martial arts etc)

So do you think self defense laws should be updated to also allow people to defend their businesses and property?

Disclaimer: Always respect the laws of the area you’re in, even if you don’t agree with them.

Food for thought:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/residents-guard-south-philly-target-to-protect-from-looters.amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/george-floyd-protesters-in-brooklyn-guard-target-store-against-looters-2020-5%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/06/01/santa-monica-owner-defends-his-store-with-guns-amid-looting/amp/

https://popularmilitary.com/fake-news-report-crops-footage-of-diverse-armed-americans-guarding-businesses-to-push-redneck-narrative/

Updates

+1 y

This was meant to be a poll, oh well.

[MrWolf]

What i think this whole thing is out of hand. I'm looting and that brutality. That ain't right.

Of course all lives matter no one ever said they don't.

But this stuff i mean the world is watching. Atacking even random people on the street minding their own business. Children are getting hurt. Atacking passing cars and whater and by the protesters who are protesting against violence. This some weird shit.

Now you wana arm yo'self wasn't the wild west enough fo yo all.

By all means do what you think is right but keep that shit in America. Insted of actually solving it yo made it worse. And i mean is bad really bad.

I kept hearing people who are protesting against the police asking for help from police. Yo make yo mind.

Damm Strongest Country in the world yeah right.

That thing should been peaceful.

Using a man's death like that shame on yo all.

And to think i had some respect for American people.

Defend yo self seriously. And then if you kill somebody by a mistake because it's gonna happen. Yo all have to live with it.

Yo all doomed.

[youknowbetter]

In my state there is a castle doctrine law. That is if someone crosses the threshold uninvited (and breaking and entering you are legally justified to use lethal force to defend yourself. And I’m all for it. If someone is willing to break into your place they are definitely willing to harm you. I would call the cops first but then put a full magazine in my handgun. I would yell first to tell them to GTFO. But if they (nor if a family member for some reason broke in) that I don’t mind squeezing the trigger.

This EXACT same law should be used for businesses. It’s shut down and if you use forcibly entry and you cross the threshold then it’s time to kiss some hot lead. This would definitely dissuade some looters.

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

I'd say the smartest thing to do in that situation is always make sure your business is insured. While I definitely do not agree with angry mobs causing violence, only a complete idiot or a suicidal person would attempt to defend his or her business from an angry mob of violent protesters. Sure, while you might have firearms to protect yourself and your business, the possibility exists that those people in bigger numbers than you could also have weapons. Letting your insurance cover your damages and loses is smarter than putting your life on the line for something that could be replaced.

[Quackthulu]

They absolutely should be. But they won’t be.

[Finchie40]

I believe it should be a law to protect your assets, you earned it and worked for it etc. Gives no one else a right to come and destroy or steal from it , If it’s my own business that i worked hard for I am allowing the public to come into my store so I expect people to treat it with respect , if you can’t treat it with respect then don’t come in my fucking store , if you come in and destroy it? I should have every right to put a round through their head and protect my assets , if the door is locked it means closed , if you force your way into a closed store now you crossed a boundary and you deal with the consequences, but as a store owner I should have every right to take matters into my own hands when my place of business is under attack and being looted , Same goes for my home , someone tries breaking into my home and stealing shit I have every right to shoot them , First off I don’t know who the fuck you are and I don’t know if you are going to harm me or my family and
Friends so I am protecting my life , so if I am going
To jail cuz I shot and killed a piece of shit stranger then so be it , they shouldn’t be missed considering they had no common sense in the first place

[MannMitAntworten]

They already do include that. Life, Liberty, ‘and’ property is covered. The deputies swung by my business last night just asking all of whether we were staying the night to protect our businesses and whatnot. We told them, “Yup”. They mentioned a few other tidbits for our peace of mine which made us all the more happy and went about their day.

It was damn bizarre seeing a protest of people from out of town (I live on a tiny broke assed hick mountain town) with nothing but upper class white teenagers and early twenty-somethings driving in their over priced German automobiles shouting out about, “white privilege.” All us protecting our businesses (which are barely scraping by) just looked at one another and I blurred out, “Now that’s white privilege...” It broke the tension of the few of us there. Still, the irony did not escape any of us. Why not protest in some upper class white location instead of a middle of nowhere mountain town that has had more disasters in the last three years with no funding to cover our losses than in those places where even celerities get go-fund-mes to cover their losses. Fucking idiots. Upoer class white ‘privileged’ idiots... March in your own front yards ya assholes. Self loathing assholes...

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

I'm a pretty big fan of the Castle Doctrine and while my state (which is a "donkey") doesn't explicitly codify it into law, the way our gun laws are implemented make it impossible to actually enforce the law in any way that doesn't follow Castle.

That said, while I think it should be *legal*, I personally don't think it's morally right to kill someone over property. If they're posing a credible threat to another human, sure, but I don't think any amount of property is worth taking a life. I'd let someone rob me blind before I kill them, as long as I didn't think my family were in danger. Which is, of course, a pretty unlikely scenario.

[ADFSDF1996]

So you would just stand there and let them take family heirlooms?

You do realize self defense doesn’t necessarily mean lethal force right?

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Yes, I do realize self defense doesn't necessarily equate to lethal force. I would *try* to keep them from taking my things, but if it came down to a choice between being robbed and killing someone, I'd rather be robbed. Even if it's family heirlooms.

[Liam_Hayden]

Yes. And as you pointed out in the last link, the MSM once again edits it to try to make it look like a couple of rednecks. Here is a photo from the same time

[Liam_Hayden]

Downvote from a Snowflake or someone who misinterpreted?

[Liam_Hayden]

Anyway, the primary purpose of government is as an extension of the inherent right to self-protect your person and property.

[ADFSDF1996]

I think downvote was from some snowflake.

[Liam_Hayden]

I know. Just one of my stalkers.

[LMNOP123]

If people are allowed to shoot others if they're on their property; how is there a difference? It's very hypocritical to be in favour of one and rule out the other.

What are they supposed to do? Call the cops? Cops are going to do the same thing as property owners are. They'll have to call the cops anyway. It's not like cops aren't going to get 2x more shit regardless of what they do.
Honestly, those against it, what do you want them to do? You can't expect them to stand around picking their nose while they're watching dumbasses destroy and steal their stuff.
If they're going to be stupid and do things they know are wrong, like vandalism and looting, they should accept the consequences.

[JackSmy]

So what does that mean, when some are on your lawn, OUTSIDE your house, but lighting Molantov Cocktails, or lighting fires, to burn your home or business!!
I think it should be LEGAL to shoot them, in SELF-DEFENSE, before they throw these and burn your home or business!!
Different cities and states, and different laws, and why we maybe have this wreckage, now! Where were the police? HIDING!!! They had to call in the NATIONAL GUARD, because the POLICE were such COWARDS through all the riots!!
THEY BURNED YOUR HOME!! The Third Precinct, in Minneapolis!! How 'INEFFECTIVE' and 'USELESS' were the Police, letting their HOUSE get burned?

[lightbulb27]

you mean they can't now? If a person shows up at my house and threatens to come in and burn it down and steal my stuff, I have right to life liberty and property. They must hae the same already.

yes.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1267549237610332161

but realize, you are going to have even more death and destruction since people are out of control and anytime a weapon is present, escallation occurs and is lethal. Solution... calm but forceful protest... not emotional destruction.

[standingUP]

ABSOLUTELY and I know a couple of these dudes in Minneapolis (what's up Smiley).. Nice to see my brothers sticking up for their community. It's a bit Ironic that they are front of liquor store since a few I know are sober giants helping out all who want it. These are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. And no not racist we have a lot of colored brothers with us. PEACE !

this is SuperD___ ! lol

[purplepoppy]

The law in UK is you can use reasonable force in relation to the risk your in and use what's at hand. The problem is what one person considers reasonable force doesn't always match the polices view. Being a petite girl I could get away with shooting a guy easily but a man couldn't. Truth is under the stress of a crime you can't expect people to behave rationally and people will overstep that reasonable force line.

[weasley8]

I think it depends on what you mean by that. No amount of property adds up to the value of a human life. But within reason I think that people should be able to defend it. Just not with anything lethal or potentially lethal. (I don't just mean guns. That also includes tear gas, which has been shown to kill people with respiratory problems, and some other things.) There should also be signs posted informing people of what will happen if they damage property before they get close enough to do it.

[jgibsonian1986]

In Massachusetts, defending yourself with a "more deadly" weapon than your attacker will get you the blame for being assaulted and also fines for assault on your part. So if your a 5'4 woman defending yourself with a knife against a 6'5 dude who has experiance fighting hand to hand, it's the woman's fault in the eyes of the court. It's pretty fucked up.

[1CentWorth]

You can defend your property and lively hood with deadly force, if actually needed. nothing illegal there, as long the deadly force was the MINIMUM amount of force needed to bring safety. If you shoot a looter in a wheelchair, that's murder, my friend.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, I don't know about your property, but my property is well defended, equipped with cameras and other self defense measures. And laws don't need updating. If someone trespasses on my property, I have all the legal basis I need to defend myself if needed. I already had one guy try to get in several nights ago.

[yseaguy]

This is not an accurate summary ofnself defense laws as they currently exist. Every state allows self defense to protect property. Just usually not lethal force. And, no, I do not think lethal force is justifiable to protect property alone (and we are talking about non-residential properties, obviously a very different analysis if you were talking about breaking into occupied residences).

[MiamiMadness]

Much respect for these guys protecting the stores, had to do some of this last night. I honestly don't give a fuck about what the laws say, if they come to loot my place or business, they get to meet my friend 5.56. Using protests to destroy our city makes zero fucking sense, go after the problem and stop taking away from the 'message'

[NerdInDenial]

You always have the right to defend your property:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/-whNp39BcYc

[RyanEC]

Absolutely yes.
If a few of those business owners had guns to defend themselves you wouldn’t see as much of this barbaric behavior.
And the second amendment needs to be protected now more then ever.
As far as I’m concerned the left lost the argument on gun control because of this.

[ChefPapiChulo]

That’s the stupidest shit have ever seen. Do they really think they can shoot people and not be prosecuted later on?
why would they risk their own lives for someone else’s business? Is it because they’re trigger happy and want to shoot at someone? that would literally be one of the incriminating questions a lawyer would ask in a future trial. but that won’t happen, if shit really hit the fan, they’d be overrun and beaten.

these guys aren’t helping anyone by being idiots and trying to look tough.

[ADFSDF1996]

You do realize that self defense but any always synonymous with lethal force right?

[ChefPapiChulo]

That’s not self defense. That’s putting themselves in a situation they don’t need to be in. Self defense is when you’re walking minding your own business and someone tries to mug you.

They don’t need to be there, and they aren’t helping the situation. If these guys end up shooting someone, which they won’t cause they’re just looking tough. They will face charges, and will end up adding fuel to a fire.

[ChefPapiChulo]

These small minded individuals don’t see the bigger picture. IMHO they’re no better than the looters. Shit like that is going to bring on a military crackdown. And soon enough we’ll have tanks on the streets. Who tf wants that?

[ADFSDF1996]

Are you familiar with the castle doctrine?

[ChefPapiChulo]

That’s not their property

[ADFSDF1996]

Certain places do technically allow people to defend their property.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Not really. Insurance covers these things. People are pissed off bro. Like none of this wouldn’t be happening if shit wasn’t so bad. You can’t just start killing them without their day in court. The death at the hands of a vigilante is not justice. Or a cop.

[ADFSDF1996]

Again, you don’t seem to realize that there’s such thing as non lethal self defense (pepper spray, tasers etc).

[ChefPapiChulo]

I don’t think most people would have a problem with that. I don’t think that’s what being shown in the video. They’re holding rifles

[najekim]

Laws should be so a person can defend whatever needs defending. Your home, the neighbor's home (if called to help), your possessions, the neighborhood, the business next store (again, if call to help), any defenseless person on the street, etc.

The late, great Robert Heinlein's character Lazarus Long had an excellent axiom: "An armed society is a polite society."

[YHL6965]

Self-defense laws are written and judged by people who are rarely confronted to the real world so they will always be useless as long as it does not come from the people. They sound good on paper but, in practice, you are more likely to get punished for defending yourself than anything which is just ludicrous.