Toxic masculinity is a myth change my mind?

[Anonymous]

This is an open debate that will hopefully allow people to see things through a different point of view and I want people to try and change my opinion. I'm not an unreasonable person. I'm open to having my mind changed if someone can present a good argument as to why my view is wrong. Please be respectful towards me and I will be respectful to you.

I agree

I disagree (you may engage in discussion)

[kaylaS91]

Let's start with making sure that we're both on the same page when it comes to understanding what toxic masculinity is the belief that if men are not taught to embody the following traits/behaviours from a young age, they will be seen as weak and undesirable:
-suppressing or masking emotions
-maintaining an appearance of 'hardness', if you will (stoicism)
-using violence or other physical means as an indicator of power ('tough-guy' behaviour)

Alright, so now that we're both on the same page, why is it a myth that believing the above mentioned traits or behaviours are toxic? Because believing that a guy can only be a 'real man' if he has no emotions or if he does, he should express them in destructive manners, is basically a large reason as to why men are overrepresented in prisons. Why men are the primary suspects when when there are public shootings or situations of domestic abuse. Why men are overrepresented by being up to 4x more likely to succeed at committing suicide.

[Asker]

My issue is that traits that are widely believed to be associated with toxic masculinity are more to do with behavior and so why not just say that the person or their behavior is toxic as toxic behavior doesn't necessarily have to apply to a specific gender.

[kaylaS91]

'why not just say that the person or their behavior is toxic'
Probably because it's argued that these people behave as such because of how they've been shaped by expectations for their gender. It's gender-specific because the expectations are decided by the gender of the individual. There's no in between in that sense.

[Barbaric]

Stoicism isn't automatically a bad thing. It's useful in situations in which being overly emotional do not help at all. When shit needs to be done and emotions get in the way. Controlling emotions is sometimes good.

If you somehow end up in a bad situation which requires action, which do you think is better? Feeling sorry for yourself and crying about it? Or putting that to the side to fix the bad situation?

The reason so many men kill themselves is precisely because they're been taught to do the former rather than the latter. It's baffling to me that people can't see it.

In the 70s the ratio was 2:1 male to female, now it's 4:1. Has our culture become more traditional? No, it has become more liberal. If what you were saying were true we'd see the opposite, but it's not.

The BIGGEST problem in today's culture is women, who by nature do not understand the way men think or tick, telling men how to be men. Men need to ignore this stuff.

[CrossfitKristen]

Whether or not I can convince you is going to depend on what you call "toxic masculinity", and whether you're willing to see my definition of that term as valid.

Since you dont believe "Toxic masculinity" exists, lets just leave the term behind and I'll tell you a few general ideas and actions that I find repulsive.

1. *The idea that men were ordained by god to be the leaders of households and societies* I've been around and known many men in my life, many of them were stupid, afraid of commitment, had uncontrollable tempers, wouldn't listen to anyone elses suggestions, etc. There's nothing about a penis that makes someone a good pick for a leader. Its a fleshy sperm cannon, not a PhD. Some men are amazing leaders, so are some women. Thinking that the qualities required for effective leadership are tied to gender is an untrue and counterproductive belief.

2. *letting kids bully and fight eachother because "boys will be boys"* there's a difference between preparing and helping a child handle mean comments or physical threats they will undoubtedly face in this world, and blatantly allowing it to happen in front of you and doing nothing. The former is about teaching kids confidence and self defence, the latter only teaches them about lazy parenting and permissive authorities.

I dont know how much room im allowed so I'll stop there, but do you see how people might find these things "toxic"? counterproductive, harmful, bad, not cool... toxic. Its just a synonym. Now as to why "masculinity" is paired with it, thats because its very often men that we see men agreeing with these bad ideas. Maybe it technically shouldn't be called "toxic masculinity" but these are real cultural problems that have earned that title colloquially.

Anything I've said so far make sense?

[Asker]

I understand what you are saying but these all sound like behavior and I believe that women are capable of this same behavior so my question to you is why not call this behavior toxic instead of generalizing between men and women?

[CrossfitKristen]

Read my last paragraph.

[FakeName123]

I disagree. I think the way social justice activists and feminists portray it is wrong, but that doesn't remove the fact that something like toxic masculinity exists.

Essentially a mans drive is rather strong. Thus as boys we need to learn how to valve these drives productively. For example being competitive is a good thing in general as it brought us forward as a society. But if it becomes obsessive or turns into using unfair methods, then it becomes a problem. Aggressiveness is a good thing, since it's one of the strongest drives that gets us moving. But if not learned how to valve properly it can turn into violence.

So masculinity (just like femininity) can become toxic. But not all masculinity is toxic like those activists try to paint it. Not to mention by removing proper male role models and making boys behave like girls, they create a situation where toxic masculinity increases.

[Asker]

So would you agree that the things associated with toxic masculinity are behavior related entirely?

[FakeName123]

Depends on what things you are referring to.

[Asker]

Anything classified as toxic masculinity is purely behavioural from the many discussions that I am engaging in

[Soteris]

Definition of Toxic Masculinity:
Toxic masculinity is used to describe the negative aspects of exaggerated masculine traits as it pertains to society or the individuals themselves.

The term was first developed by mens rights activists to try explain some of the issues men have with stereotyping and has later been accepted in general academic circles including in groups like feminism.

A good example of toxic masculinity is how some people believe men can't be raped by women because the men have a stereotype of always wanting sex making it consensual rather than forced. Masculinity has the stereotype of desiring sex and anyone who rejects sex would thus be "unmanly" hence the concept of masculinity in this regard is harmful to actual men and as such "toxic".

[Asker]

I feel that the things associated with toxic masculinity are behavior based and have nothing to do with gender. Also the behavior associated with toxic masculinity can be behavior that doesn't necessarily have to be of men it can be the behavior of anyone from any gender.

[Soteris]

True toxic masculinity is not necessarily restricted to gender, that is why it is called masculinity and not toxic male or something else. Its rare that you would apply a gender stereotype on another gender though which is why its mostly a male issue.

Also its not necessarily about the behavior either but the underlying cause of the behavior. There are many reasons one might have harmful behaviors but its only toxic masculinity if its grounded in the gender stereotype of masculinity.

[Asker]

But why don't we just condemn toxic behavior rather than trying to divide toxic behavior by gender?

[Asker]

Also what would be an example of toxic masculinity that isn't behavior related?

[Soteris]

Because it has specific meaning. Just like how there is toxic masculinity there is toxic femininity and they have similar yet different meanings since both are based on different gender stereotypes.

As for something that is not behavior related? How about the body stereotype. I am sure you can easily think of a manly body structure such as a bodybuilder or even the size of your genitalia. These things have somehow become a measure of "manliness" which means that men that does not embody these ideals are inherently seen as lesser or inferior.

[Asker]

But muscular bodies are behavior related as they need to be built and earned rather than just being born with it. As for the genitalia I've never heard anyone ever use the term masculine genitalia. You can say someone has masculine features but not that their genitalia is masculine or feminine.

[Asker]

Also with the genitalia what I think you're talking about is penis envy which is behavior as well

[Soteris]

Not necessarily. Not everyone can get the ideal male body even if they put in the effort. Everyone is different and as a result they also put on muscles and such differently. It does not mean they are weaker just that it might not be the exact ideal look that screams "masculine!"

As for "masculine genitalia" its more down to how people equate masculinity with how large it is. People who have a small penis are often insecure about it and feels like it denigrates their value as a man while the opposite is also true.

There are plenty of evidence for this such as whenever someone buys an expensive looking car or whatever people joke about how he must be "compensating for something".

[Asker]

So far all of this is sounding like behavior more than anything else.

[Soteris]

Well I can't help you with that.

[ADFSDF1996]

I agree, it’s just an imaginary boogeyman.

By the way, Steven Crowder is awesome.

[Asker]

Thank you for your input

[MzAsh]

Masculinity itself isn’t toxic. How some people use masculinity can be and sometimes is.

[Asker]

I personally believe that people can be toxic and behavior can be toxic and toxic masculinity is not real

[MzAsh]

Behavior can be toxic, including people who use their masculinity in a toxic way and that’s what the term refers to.

[JimboGB]

Finally, you got it. 👏🏻

[Yads_Is_Back]

“Toxic masculinity” is b. s. and I hate it. If a woman doesn’t want masculinity then just date women 🤷🏻‍♀️ But they shouldn’t - when I say “they” I mean anybody - shouldn’t try to make men more like them (feminine). And what I hate is when the men give into it! Stand up and tell those bitches off and that you’re a man and if she doesn’t like it then she can be a lesbian. Sorry for my language, but the men who give up their masculinity for this mess are really messing themselves up. Some people appreciate masculinity.

[Asker]

Thanks for your comments I'm hoping to change people's minds about the topic at hand and educate them on the issues with the word itself

[Yads_Is_Back]

Is there something I missed?

[Asker]

I feel that we should condemn toxic behavior and identify it as toxic behavior essentially making the term gender neutral. Also the things most commonly used to describe "toxic masculinity " are more behavior and as we all know any person can behave in a toxic manner regardless of gender, race or religious beliefs.

[Yads_Is_Back]

That’s true, so I get the message you’re trying to convey

[Asker]

I also believe that we should condemn the use of the term "toxic masculinity" itself.

[Futron]

Toxic masculinity is when a man is held to a certain expectation that he must be aggressive, violent, dirty, strong, and horny to be a real man. It negatively effects how women react to men (assuming they're always trying to get in their pants, assuming they aren't safe people, assuming they have less emotion, etc.) And how men treat other men (being called gay/ a child/ a woman for not meeting expectations of being a man) Toxic masculinity is not manhood, it's the reactions and expectations of manhood that negatively impact men.

Whether it's a bad thing to you or not, it exists.

[Asker]

So all these things you are pointing out are more behavior issues than they are about masculinity so why don't we just say that the person is exhibiting toxic behavior without needing to specify gender?

[Futron]

I mean that would make more sense, but I feel like it's because it's a result of the standard that men are held at. Women are held at certain standards as well, but it works in a girl's favor a lot of the time. Men are held at standards to be dangerous and scary- women are held at standards to be safe and loving... therefore people trust women more just for being women.

[Anonymous]

Its an intentional conflation designed to semantically entangle the two core ideas. There is toxic behavior and there's healthy behavior. There's masculine and feminine behavior. By labeling a set of behaviors as "toxic masculinity", you semantically link toxic and masculine. Of course, as a byproduct the mind links healthy and feminine together.

Once you catch on to this tactic, you see it everywhere, especially in the political sphere. Its a mental trap designed to control you.

[jarofawesome]

I believe there are attitudes and personality traits deemed toxic in both sexes. Some happen to be masculine behaviors and some happen to be feminine behaviors plain and simple.

[jarofawesome]

No one sex is subject to behaviors of one side. As women can technically suffer from "toxic masculinity" as well if they are exhibiting insecurity for example in the form of dominating or forcing control over others out of anxiety.

[jarofawesome]

On the flip-side a man can have toxic femininity for example by allowing too much passiveness to drag them into depression and neediness which leads to jealousy/envy.

[Asker]

Ok so why not classify the behavior as toxic instead of trying to divide it up by gender essentially combining the behaviors of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity?

[Asker]

Into one term making it gender neutral

[jarofawesome]

It's like saying Apples and then defining further to Red Apples or Green Apples.

Its more specific. Toxic behaviors splits to Toxic Masculine traits or Toxic Feminine traits.

[Asker]

Why not just say that a person or their behavior is toxic why divide it by gender when we can have one term that condemns all toxic behavior regardless of masculinity or femininity?

[jarofawesome]

Because I, even as an outlier (woman with more dominate masculine than feminine traits), personally believe that there is a natural propensity of the sexes to possess more traits from the gender related to their biological sex than the other and that there is a distinction in the traits for this reason. Feminine traits are feminine and not gender neutral because -on average- biological women who identify with their biological sex (and it's so lengthy and annoying to have to add all of that) tend to possess these traits to a more frequent and/or stronger degree than men and vice versa.

[Asker]

So you are saying that it has more to do with hormones above anything else?

[lolcraft]

The problem is the you're using an abstract spiritual notion of masculinity and femininity. Where they exist either in their idealized form or their "toxic" negative form. Truth told no one person would possess an idealized or toxic form of either.

Honestly I find it interesting, apply masculinity and femininity into taoist yin yang quadrant. Similar to order and chaos, or good and evil.

You just can apply this to any individual.

However this is a very ethereal, abstract, view on gendered relations and behavior.

[BlueScorpio]

I think people got that confused with behavior, masculinity or femininity isn't toxic- it's people's behavior and the way they respond to certain things that can be toxic. Yes, men are more or can be more aggressive, violent due to testosterone but having that doesn't make every man in society bad.

[genericname85]

if you define "toxic masculinity" as "the male tendency to solve conflicts with violence and aggression", then it's not a myth. that's why men perform better in the economy and also why there are more men in prison... that is statistically evident and can't be argued. however it's still very dangerous, problematic and also invalid to take statistical occurances and project that on the individual and blame an individual for "toxic masculinity".

[genericname85]

so generally i reject the term toxic masculinity because it's harmfull and dangerous ideology. but there are statistical facts about men that you can't denie.

[Asker]

My question is why does it have to called toxic masculinity why not just call it toxic behavior or single out the individual as a toxic person?

[genericname85]

Well I would rather call it by it's name: male tendency to violence and aggression and lack in agreeableness. Because women don't typically develop those traits as strongly as men do. And it is not necessarily toxic cause it's a great predictor of success.

[AzureGirl]

Disagree. Basically toxic masculinity is the idea that you have to fit a certain mold to be considered “manly” and those who do not fit that mold are typically looked down upon and treated poorly in society and other men in general.

[Anonymous]

In my opinion it is feminazi BS, to help with her choice of being lesbian.

There is a lot of men who don't know how to behave with women, I would agree wit that, but in that case she needs to choose men who behaves in proper manner, not just grab first one in a street an judge every man with his example and become lesbian or maybe she just wants excuse...

[Asker]

I think we can both agree that people can be toxic or their behavior can be toxic regardless of gender, race or religious beliefs.

[Opinion Owner]

Yes and not only those 3 aspects, there is more...

[Thatsamazing]

There is no such thing as "debate," friend. There is "conversation." You have already failed if you are approaching the subject with the idea that there is winning and losing, rather than an even exchange of information that may open your mind.

[ArrowheadSW]

I think it is just a catch-all phrase that means a grumpy guy who is used to being in charge? I really haven't heard that phrase all that much.

[startingfitness]

If toxic masculinity exists then so does toxic femininity. Or , neither exists and there are just toxic people.

This is just one of those stupid sjw words created to attack men.

[Asker]

So why not just classify the behavior as toxic without any reference to gender?

[startingfitness]

Exactly

[Celtero]

I think what is perceived as being toxic is just men trying to prepare other men for the harsh realities of life.

[Unit1]

REAL MEN DON'T CRY

There. All that is needed to be said to make my point.

[Asker]

I don't necessarily agree with your opinion but you're entitled to it I guess

[Unit1]

You missed my point. I brought up one prime example of toxic masculinity.

[Asker]

So one can classify the behavior itself as toxic without needing to define whether it is masculine or feminine behavior

[Unit1]

Not sure what makes your point, that the gender specific part here is not related to the toxicity part.

[Asker]

What I'm saying is that if a woman was to not cry when she needed just like a man she's just bottling up her emotions. But if a guy does it it's called toxic masculinity. All genders are capable of this type of behavior and which is unhealthy and shouldn't be gender specific.

[Unit1]

Ahh, i gotcha.
We call it toxic masculinity since this tendency is very common among men and so men are very discouraged to letting the emotions out (since they were boys) whereas in women it's almost expected.
Now obviously for men this will backfire. Women bottling it all up likely follow the same fate but they don't feel like they have to bottle it all up. They got all the support network they want.

[Asker]

But it's unhealthy all across the board no matter who is exhibiting this type of behavior so why not just call it toxic behavior?

[Unit1]

Like i said, this happens very commonly in men (not in women nearly as much) and is therefore called toxic masculinity. I think Wikipedia covers that as well.

[Jack9949]

The concept of masculinity itself isn’t toxic. However if you don’t exercise masculine behaviors in moderation by showing good self-discipline, it certainly can be.

[dav133]

Some people can exhibit toxic behaviour including men and some of it may be related to their view of masculinity. So yes. But does it exist in the form that many people say? Sometimes... Does that mean all masculinity is toxic... No

[BigBoyRoy]

There is no toxic masculinity, but there is toxic feminism

[Asker]

I disagree I think that toxic behavior and toxic people exist. Toxic masculinity and toxic femininity are not real.

[Anonymous]

Toxic masculinity is real - stop being an offended snowflake and accept the label you're given

[OddBeMe]

To start, do men and women have equal opportunities?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Its trash. Masculinity is inherited by biology. Only a whimp thinks Masculinity is toxic.

[floorislava85]

Crowder is the gayest straight guy I have ever seen

[IAMNathanael]

Nope, no minds changing here... I agree with you

[Dargil]

I disagree and have no need to defend my view.

[Massageman]

It's bologna. Is that about equal to a myth? ;- )

[disgustingweebtrash]

y should I be lesser for showing emotion