Are traditional gender roles bad?

[Iceseeyou25]

I feel like people say traditional gender roles are wrong, but deep down a lot of people want to follow them still. Just like people pretend looks don't matter or money doesn't matter. It's just lies. Lol

Yes, they are

No, not at all

Other

[Anonymous]

Well, society still conditions gender roles to an extent, so you would obviously continue to see them. And when gender itself is conditioned, many people will seem to "naturally" follow certain patterns (this is largely nurture/socialization as well). People never really broke away from them completely, but there is a definite shift in gender roles in the West, because of women's access to employment and women's rights, especially reproductive rights. Women are still expected to cook and clean, which I think is wrong and unnecessarily stressful, but most women are not housewives, for example. Granted, many women weren't merely housewives to begin with (poor women, slaves, etc.) but we have far more access to independence than ever before. Thus, the later ages that people are getting married, for example. Women don't need to be married to make money and survive. So a lot has shifted, but a lot also hasn't.

I think we should be talking even more about men taking on more of the domestic responsibilities, and many of us are doing that. And some men do a great job really being true parters and not waiting for their partners to be maids. On a personal level, it's mostly a no. I don't believe in gender roles for the most part, although, I do lean into certain norms like the guy asking me out first, because I've noticed poor results the other way around and don't like to waste my time. I would never marry someone who expected or allowed me to take on all of the domestic chores - all of the cooking, cleaning that needs to be done every day, all of the child rearing and taking care of newborns, etc. As a feminist, I simply won't ever tolerate anyone telling me I have to live that way because I'm a woman. There are only a very few situations I can see that making sense for me - situations in which he works an abnormally intense workload and I don't, for example. But for most men, that isn't the case, and I'd have to think about what that work life would mean for our relationship anyway.

As a very young feminist, I really used to always resist the whole opening doors, walk first thing. That used to be piss me off to no end, and it was happening all the time! (Still does) My friends would say it never happened to them and I'd get mad. lolol However, I'm okay with this now, even though I still have the same view of it being rooted in sexism. I have leaned more into the understanding that, while I need a man who is conscious and leftist, most of us have been conditioned into these norms and these gestures are peoples way of showing care, affection, kindness. So as long as he's not one of those men who aggressively defends his masculinity through the gesture, I'll just view it as a nice thing to do. Two guys at my job embody this difference. One is just pleasant to be around in general, we work closely. He will always open doors and offer the women to go first. If I playfully challenge him and say, "No sir, after you!" he will just smile/laugh and go along with it. No harm done. This OTHER guy once actually stood there and refused to go when I nicely suggested he walk ahead of me, creating an awkward scene and making him look aggressive - that's the difference between a yes and no for me.

It's about choice. The only reason I have a concept of my choice to defy these norms is because people (feminists) were loud and bold in their challenge of them. I still love to cook, but I would personally feel stifled and used if I were the only one doing the cooking for everyone. I see how stressed out my mom is with work AND all the domestic chores. I'm just really not interested. If other women want to choose that, good for you. However, we need to continue to challenge gender roles, to increase that awareness of choice and hopefully get men more involved in domestic work.

[DavidFox]

I agree and disagree with a lot of what you said yet you unfortunately said it anonymously and that’s my biggest disappointment. As you noted many people (women and men) fought for the rights of women and sacrificed to get where we are today. Just would have hoped you post this with your gag username to own these words and continue in that legacy.

[Jamie05rhs]

@OpinionOwner I absolutely love what you wrote here, and I agree with all of it. You are the type of woman I want to be with. I think you're awesome. I also wish you had posted this with your username visible, because I want to be friends with you. (However, maybe that worked out to your benefit, if you don't like me and you would rather I stay away. Lol)

[Jamie05rhs]

Oops! It appears that @OpinionOwner is an actual account, and it's a dude. LMAO. My bad.

[navyrobin]

@Jamie05rhs LMAO I’m wheezing

[navyrobin]

Opinion Owner, thank you for sharing such a brilliant opinion. I agree with every little thing you said. Very well written.

[Jamie05rhs]

@navyrobin :)

[nelly83]

yes i am against housewives. because i think every woman should be encouraged to fulfill her highest potential. there's absolutely no potential you can fulfill by being locked at home washing dishes, going to grocery store, and watching tv half the day. There are talents within you that you would not be able to know that you have it , unless you get out into the real world to do things. If you had natural persuasive skills, you will never know you have it until you do customer service, negotiate a salary, work in sales. And its quite honestly sad for someone to never fully understood their talents and themselves their entire lives.

Housewiving is just a role where you do nothing at home 6 hours a day until the kids come home from school. Housewiving is no longer a full time job. It used to be a 12-16 hr day job where she never stops working. My parents worked 16 hour days to raise me. Now its all the lazy parents who stay at home doing nothing most of the week who get all the praise.

[Citizenkirk]

Traditions are old family habits that are reviered enough to be considered worthy of passing on to the next generation. Social convention can be seen the same way when a community feels they preserve the best qualities of that gerneration in that community context.
I am of an age where I was exposed to multiple community norms, on in transition of equal rights awareness for radical change in legislation and attitudes, one that is as timeless as a Norman Rockwell illustration or print of American Gothic.
In both examples, strict adherence too cultural norms is as dangerous as no adherence or observance at all.
I believe in the buffey salad bar approach, taking the toppings and ingredients you find most satisfactory and fullfilling in the shortterm, with significant consideration too long term nutritional health and support.
If you recognize the benifts of what traditional values intended for established gender role identity, while rejecting those antiquated specifics that undermine those objectives in today's society, than an acceptable compromise can be maintained that should leave the moral majority at piece with the resulting new gender role conventional wisdom, and the success of that wisdom may benifit the next generation as well.

[Anonymous]

We're in a really confusing time, because we're transitioning further away from some established societal roles from +100 years ago, where nowadays there are more educated women out there in the world (in terms of schooling + degrees) than men, and they no longer need to rely on men to survive financially. The gender pay gap is diminishing and has practically diminished in 1st world western countries for most jobs (non executive). Less women want to be house wives and are focusing on careers now more too. They want men to help more with chores and raising the kids.

A lot of traditional men feel threatened with women making more money than them. They've been raised to think that the major value that they bring to society is how much they provide their family from working. Women are confused as well, because many still want men to behave traditionally in some ways (like courtship), but still want to be independent financially. It will take some time.

[locutus9999]

Not good not bad, is just a bit more comprehension and care is needed. For example I am a dude, They assume that i have the psychology of rambo, wake up looking and feeling great, that i do not suffer at work, that i never say no to sex, like all my actions are driven by sex, that i love cars, love beer, i do not cry, and i am privilege.
But the only one of those that is true is that I like some beers. Same for the other side. as a guy, need containment, hugs, some compliments will be great, I cry, i say no to sex, My actions are not driven for sex, l do not care about cars, neither futball, i am sensitive inside, i do not feel good every morning, and i find rambo basic minded. Same phenomena happen at the other side of the fence. so, what about we assume we are humans to start, and from then do we work our differences?

[Daedelus]

I think they are, absolutely. If we're going by Western traditional gender roles, at least. The central conceit of these traditions is that men should have control over women. That's not "argh SJW feminist radical nonsense", it's just the truth. I don't believe society should pressure someone into relinquishing their autonomy purely because of their gender. Enforcing traditional gender roles means enforcing a fundamentally unfair and absurd view of the world, one that suppresses a full 50% of the human race purely because of what category we've placed them into. That being said, there's nothing wrong with taking on a "traditional" role. Do you want to be a stay-at-home mum? Go for it! The key is it that the choice of whether to conform to gender roles or not should be exactly that - your CHOICE.

[Bat-Perv]

No. Traditional gender roles existed in the past for a reason. There were certain physical jobs women couldn't do plus women needed support during pregnancy, pregnancy being a result of having Hetrosexual sex. The 1950s housewife thing is a myth most women were working a job sometimes two, and then taking care of the home. In the 1960s the pill came along as did labor saving devices making housework easier and most jobs less physically demanding. So it wasn't feminism that freed women it was technology

[navyrobin]

Laws that allowed women to work and have more freedom were influenced by feminism.

[Bat-Perv]

@navyrobin women were working long before that. The 1950s stay at home housewife is largely a myth.
In Britain for example women got the vote not long after men. Education was only for the wealthy for most of the 20th century. Most people worked low paid labor intensive jobs.

[navyrobin]

Only unmarried or divorced women worked and it wasn’t encouraged whatsoever. It was like an embarrassment for society to have a woman do that.

[Bat-Perv]

@navyrobin among the middle classes maybe.

[navyrobin]

Middle class was already the average lifestyle for the US. I’m from El Salvador, a third world country, and even then my great grandmother was ostracized because she wanted to work. It was certainly not just in the middle class.

[Bat-Perv]

@navyrobin middle class was not the average lifestyle

[navyrobin]

Even if it wasn’t, like I said, it was a cultural phenomenon, it wasn’t related to middle class or lower class. Women were still treated that way regardless.

[Bat-Perv]

@navyrobin as were men.

[navyrobin]

Men faced a whole different set of issues. Yes. But in the work department, they had more opportunities.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

No they're not bad, for many people traditional roles are actually still the best fit, considering their goals, livelihoods, career trajectories, etc. But for many other people, traditional roles are not a good fit. It's all about what works for individuals, especially when two or more individuals team up as a collective (as in the case of marriage, cohabitation, etc.). This is why new couples especially need to sit down together and discuss these things, so they can enter a relationship with clear expectations of the roles they each must fulfil.

[Cataphract]

If a society starts questioning something that has worked for as long as men exist, then that won't help anyone. There is a reason why women and men are not the same biologically speaking. And contrary to what feminists say, the fact that one gender has less or more of certain hormones in the body has nothing to do with the patriarchy.

[MrNameless]

like what? Women are no longer relying on men for money, and there are more educated women out there in terms of schooling then men are. Today's women don't want to be housewives and want a more balanced approach, including with chores and raising children.

[Cataphract]

@MrNameless I wasn't talking about that, i was talking about relationships between the two genders. But despite that you are still looking at what you mention superficially. In the very example you used, you don't see that dependency worked both ways: women depended on their husbands for money, but husbands depended on their wives for having sane offspring. It was a social contract that ensured a more stable society simply because one parent was sacrificing not spending much time with the kids while the other was sacrificing the ability to deal with the outside world more. Please note that this does not mean that women had absolutely no say in how money was spent. I know for some cases where in fact a housewife was in charge of finances.
Also, now the question is not if women want to work, most of them simply have to work because an ordinary family can no longer live on one salary.

[navyrobin]

It depends which ones you’re talking about. Some of them are very damaging to men and women.


Expecting men to never show emotion, always be stoic, and normalizing sexual harassment towards women? Yes, that’s wrong. And yes, that is a traditional gender role.


Laughing at men who suffer domestic abuse, always assuming that women are innocent and they’re incapable of committing crimes? Also yes, extremely wrong, unhealthy and dangerous.


Encouraging men to protect their family when in danger and newborn children staying with their mothers at home (while they’re unable to go to school)? THAT is a healthy gender role. It’s not bad. But the keyword here is “encourage” not “force” people to conform.

[Apple1996]

I think the roles are there for a reason but can be tweaked to fit the situation. For the most part though they're not bad. I'm a stay at home mom and I absolutely love being able to cook, clean and watch the kids. If I would have had to work i would have been miserable.

[Iwasthinkingif]

No they are not bad at all.
What is bad is expecting people to live a certain way and putting them down if they do not agree on your own vision.
People who think traditional gender roles are the best way usually put down the ones who do not agree. People who think traditional gender roles are problematic and bad usually think they are better than those who don't.
We should all live the way we want as long as it is our choice and we are happy with it.

[MCheetah]

No, of course not! And they exist for a reason. No one is saying you HAVE to follow them and I think the confusion comes in when gender roles are strictly enforced, although they definitely should be the norm in a healthy society. They exist for a reason and were cultivated and developed out of our own biology and genders. Only REALLY stupid people, or those who are implying gender roles should be mandatory for everyone, would think that they are "bad."

[DrunkAss]

If they are bad then what is the alternative? This?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/5PRAYmzgg0U

Perhaps there is something better but throwing half the book away doesn't give any structure, and there's no romance (a cultural concept, not innate) or beauty without structure.

[Texaskid1]

I saw the video. We can only wish them well.

[Jamie05rhs]

Aww. So cute. I love these people. God bless them.

[Jamie05rhs]

by the way, I don't know about her, but I can tell he's really serious.

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs The girl seemed way flakier there. Well, I am one who bounced across cultures growing up. I learned that even our ideas of "romance' is cultural. We build it -- just like we build the beauty of a 7-course French cuisine than reducing it to an inefficient way to get micronutrients. There is no joy and adventure to be had to take a Spock approach to everything. We gotta live! Gamble, imagine, be creative! I like this way. I am on this side. I do not people willing to throw away the beauty that history and tradition has given us, even if it's irrational. I welcome the irrational.

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs On gender roles, maybe we can bend it here and there for fairness and opportunity -- to both sexes. But I think it's horrible to throw out thousands of years of history on what makes us think things are beautiful, romantic, with no alternative to offer. It is easy to criticize the flaws of a system. Anyone can do that. But even the gender roles highlight the extraordinary -- the sensitive man, the gung-ho woman. They give us a structure to see things of interest. So I am not interested in throwing that away. Because nothing is of interest without structure. It's all plain and boring, much like that wedding.

[Jamie05rhs]

@DrunkAss But people don't adhere to gender roles because they think they're beautiful and romantic. People adhere to gender roles because they think they're "proper" and "normal" and "expected."

[Jamie05rhs]

The wedding was structured. It was just minimalistic.

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs That might be a disconnect in my experience. I don't know what is expected of me now. I just wing it. I seem to like the confused girls who do the same, like ones who never really quite registered the etiquette, it traveled the world as I have. For me, culture is a "commodity". It's like a reference that's deeper and stronger than any Hollywood image to lend weight to our encounters, give sentiment to little moments. And maybe that's all it is for me being biracial and all.

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs [...] *have* traveled the world as I have. [...] But I do love cultures and history a lot. I don't like people who disrespect it and just think they can make up new rules and call it "beautiful".

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs >> The wedding was structured. It was just minimalistic.
It pisses on the structure in my book. Seems funny that I'm the one saying it now. I'm hardly a traditionalist (I don't even know what it means). But it is not beautiful in my opinion. If it is in its own way, then I don't think we can measure it -- like cow shit with gold leaf. It's abstract modern art. I don't like it. If anything, the classical offers guidelines for what is beautiful. We don't have to conform to them. We can bend those rules. But I do not like abandoning them.

[DrunkAss]

Perhaps it is my visual arts side that is speaking here more strongly than most now. But there is no shortage of rebels to the classical rules and rigidity. They want to get away from its rigidity -- of perspective, anatomy, composition. But in doing so and inventing their own rules, they rarely appeal to anybody because there's no structure to it. There's no reality behind it. It is in those who observe the rules and bend it that make the most interesting things. I feel that way about social structure as well. People who want to throw out the book without bothering to read it won't do anything interesting, because the people who wrote the book have generations upon generations of refinement and interesting things to say. They can't possibly compete with thousands of years of harnessing what is beautiful and meaningful by just throwing away the book.

[Jamie05rhs]

@DrunkAss First of all, I just want to say that you seem like a pretty interesting dude, and I am enjoying this conversation.

As far as etiquette around the world, I do tend to respect other countries' cultures. But as for the USA/"America" (my country), I see it as a place of independence, freedom, diversity, and innovation. So I don't care too much about traditions in my own county.

I like more open-minded and freethinking girls as well.

I also have a deep admiration for history and culture. I just think that European traditions should be left in Europe. (I'm white, for context lol. So that's the perspective I'm coming from. That's where my ancestors are from.)

[Jamie05rhs]

Well, I didn't think it necessarily "pissed on" the structure. It was a formal legal ceremony. They had witnesses present. They said vows. They kissed. (Even though it wasn't much of a kiss, in my opinion haha. But I'm not going to judge them on that.

[Jamie05rhs]

And okay, so it wasn't "beautiful.". But it was still nice.

Lmao at the modern art reference. I think we may share the same view as far as that it is concerned. However, I didn't see that couples ceremony as repulsive. It was different, yes, buy they did it in their own way and I can still respect that.

[Jamie05rhs]

And I know what you're saying about the traditional rules for a wedding. But not everyone wants that.

[DrunkAss]

@Jamie05rhs Cheers! Well, I think the traditions are all around us... like in a heart symbol, which meant nothing at one point... in a candlelit dinner, which was only a strange dark room at one point... body aesthetics of what is considered beautiful -- I'm sure you've experienced that being only about a half a decade younger than me -- from tall and long legs to big asses and such. Things change under our feet. And maybe we can invest in the new -- but it needs structure as I see it. So with gender roles, some of them are oppressive, some liberating, and I think for both sexes. But there's structure and beauty there. I like the structure and beauty -- if only to find how interesting a woman is for failing to conform to such roles. I wouldn't have that compass to find her interesting if that structure wasn't in place. I am not a fan of "whatever" when it comes to aesthetics.

[Jamie05rhs]

"But in doing so and inventing their own rules, they rarely appeal to anybody because there's no structure to it. There's no reality behind it.". I do feel you on that. And I think the same can be said for music. But when it comes down to romantic relationships, I think it all depends on the individual couple and what they want. Because that's all that really matters.

But yeah, I generally agree with everything else you said there.

[Jamie05rhs]

"I wouldn't have that compass to find her interesting if that structure wasn't in place.". That is true, I guess!

[DrunkAss]

We can't measure something against nothing, so to speak. So take Amelia Earhart. We can measure her against our gender roles, and she's a legend for defying them. But she's a legend precisely because we had those roles and expectations in place. The beauty of her legend is measured against something that can be measured -- a structure -- and I tend to like that structure if only to defy it. It gives us a measuring point.

[Jamie05rhs]

Yeah. Good point.

[Jamie05rhs]

Minority opinion: I think they are. Because it means the man has dominance over the woman. That just doesn't sit right with me. I believe in equality and women's rights. This is the 21st Century. We have made so much progress. There is no reason why we should still be living in the dark ages.

[Newhead]

No they are not, women usually do house chores because these tasks are more within or capabilities and we prefer to do this than yard work, carpentry and plumbing. We are also physically less able to do more male dominated jobs. That doesn't mean we cannot have a career too. All I am saying is that gender roles were created for good reasons, we just need to modernize more of these traditions to fit a newer era.

[CubsterShura]

The thing is, people needed them to survive whether or not they liked it. We still need them to a certain extent but not as much as we did before in many aspects, hence why people who don't feel the immediate need to follow those traditions get mad when they are told that they still have to do it anyway, and hence why I personally think people should let others mind their own business.

[Agape93]

Yeah. They’re limiting people to basic categories. If you personally like it and want it for yourself, that’s fine. But it shouldn’t be forced or expected.

[YeaNo]

I've waited and waited for a woman to ask me out, but they never do.
Perhaps I should try traditional gender roles and I might get somewhere.
Going against gender roles just hurts yourself.
No one is going to give you an easy pass because you expect things to be different.

[worldscolide]

No.. Only idiotic leftist feminists believe such drivel. If you want to be traditional, be traditional, if you dont want to be traditional, dont be traditional. Thats the beauty of the modern world. you can be what you want to be.

[Nazgol]

I dont mind them but I do think a lot is being asked of women. We simply cannot juggle everything like cook clean work take care of kids and what's worse is that the husband will not cooperate and just say"your job not mine". If all moms/wives could just stay home then I'm sure they can do more and much better too

[Nazgol]

A man simply has to work and do things like car maintenance or something of that sort , whereas a woman has to do much more

[ShortCircuit]

No, as long as they are adopted voluntarily. Obviously, forcing or otherwise pressuring people into traditional gender roles is wrong, just like forcing or pressuring people into non-traditional gender roles. Moral of the story: force is wrong.

[Anon_deals]

Of course. They are sexist; therefore, bad. Other people can carry on those man-made traditions but I will not. Also, I will not carry those traditions onto my (maybe) future child (ren)

[Mystic_Nova]

Depends on what roles you mean.

But n. v in this economy, yes they are. A family typically will struggle with one source of income. And bsb if something happens to the husband, you're screwed