huge INCENTIVES for people to misalign their skills and talents with their ultimate roles...(such as having quotas for numbers/percentages of women in certain fields) then those incentives should be removed.If I agree with you at all, then, that's the extent to which I do -- basically, we shouldn't offer gigantic incentives for people to pervert/betray their OWN best calling in life.... but that's not the same as saying there should be prescribed "roles". Because, dude, FUCK prescribed roles.That's like having a caste system -- which is pretty much the single biggest reason why India is a non-player in terms of global power, despite having a HUGE pool of intelligent (and highly economically driven) talent. Their caste system fucks everything up, by driving too many people into positions and roles that are just WRONG for them.Any sort of encouragement of "traditional gender roles" is just going to do the same thing:• It's not going to affect people who THRIVE in those roles AT ALL,
since any such people would just end up in the same life situation whether the "roles" are encouraged or not.BUT• Lots of people who DON'T thrive in "traditional" roles will be pressured into them -- and that's going to be a deadweight loss for the entire society, in addition to those people specifically themselves.This sort of thing should be a TOTALLY free market.A free market not only in terms of economics, and work, and all that... but also a free market in terms of dating and mating.That way, the people who are best suited to each other, can find each other... and make awesome things happen together. Regardless of which person is doing which things.
I agree but what do you suggest when what one sex overwhelmingly supports what the other sex overwhelmingly opposes (the source of pretty much all the gender role controversy on here)?
@tyber1 There is no such situation.As with everything else in life, the only people who ever bother to vocalize their concerns are... the people who are MOST pissed off.I mean, think about, say, the customer service hotline for a product that makes 99.95 percent of buyers perfectly satisfied.... STILL, the hotline will get mostyl complaints. They'll pretty much ONLY hear from that 0.05 percent. Because people don't take the time to call in and say "Hey, I'm perfectly happy with this product."Same thing is happening here. IF there was really THAT much of a mismatch, things would start to correct themselves, because that's how societies work.You're hearing a lot of loud discontented voices, from people who in fact make up a tiny, tiny minority.
Seems reasonable. I agree that it's not practical.
The vast majority of women are happiest as married housewives. Why change it?
That's a nice made up statistic you've got there.
Are you seriously going to debate that? Look up any study ever done on the subject. We know for a fact that women are happiest in that role.
You think you know what women want in life better than a woman does? You're adorable.Women aren't all the same. Some want to be housewives, some don't. There's nothing wrong with either option, but gender roles hold back those of us who don't want to be housewives. If people only accepted traditional gender roles, I would never be able to have a career in the male-dominated field that I work in.
Can you cite one such study?
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...edom-worthlessness.htmlwww.dailymail.co.uk/.../...n-happy-years-ago-.htmlIts actually true, biology is something that isn't easily altered simply because people claim its a "social construct".
@hellionthesagereborn "Yesterday’s report from the Office for National Statistics on personal well-being, ordered by David Cameron, looked at the happiness of people who are economically inactive – the class into which full-time mothers fall.While those who stay at home scored the worth of their lives higher than those who go to work, scores for happiness, life satisfaction and anxiety levels were broadly the same."Did you actually read this? On top of not citing the actual article, this site even shows that not only are stay at home mothers not the only ones included in said category, but happiness isn't even one of the factors that they score higher on. It says they score higher on worth, not happiness or life satisfaction...
@hellionthesagereborn the second link is just as flawed. Firstly it's not a longitudinal study so there are far too many factors at play for this type of study, but on top of that its comparing happiness today with that of those who just got out of a major world war. I don't know, but do you think that getting their family members home might have influenced their happiness slightly? In addition their happiness just dropped to the same level as men. This might insinuate that people who have full time jobs simply aren't as happy as people who stay at home. That seems a far more rational explanation does it not?
@ladsin not really. Does it factor in? Well of course, work creates stress however your ignoring everything else. Women where happier before then they are now, as gender roles where removed women have become increasingly unhappy in multiple aspects of life from romance, hence the increased rate of divorce (initiated almost entirely by women) in sex (the greater the number of sex partners a woman has the higher her probability of being unhappy within relationships among other things), to work/life balance which of course was non existent before the removal of gender roles. Then you factor in that conservatives are actually happier then liberals conservatives being the group most likely to adhere to gender roles comparative to liberals, the higher divorce rates of non traditonal house holds (stay at home father are more likely to be divorced by their wives), women who have turned down promotions to be with family report higher levels of happiness as well.
@ladsin Basically your fighting biology, men are driven to be ambitious and to provide for their families and women are driven to provide nurturing enviroments for their young. This is why single women actually out earn single men yet married men out earn married women because the women will always put career second to family, that is their priority. Men in turn work more when they have a family to provide the resources necessary to maintain their family, when either group goes against this as I pointed out whith non traditional homes, stress levels increase as both parties are now doing significantly more work when both work and care for children and also have less time for themselves and each other, and when the roles are completely reversed women and men are unhappy resulting in divorce. Biology is the reason high earning women stay single longer, because they are biologically inclined to marry up not down.
@ladsin Basically biology is king, women are more inclined to stay at home because those women who where where more likely to reproduce, the reason being is it provided the best enviroment for their offspring from less likely to have a miscarriage in trying to work while pregnant to better nourishment for nursing which meant healthier babies. Again multiple studies do support this. www.nytimes.com/.../...marriage-mean-less-sex.htmllink.springer.com/.../s11199-011-0017-2www.nytimes.com/.../...marriage-mean-less-sex.htmlwww.kstatecollegian.com/.../nypost.com/.../Fighting biology is like fighting gravity, you can claim its a social construct but no amount of protest is going to stop you from falling. Its not a fight that can be won.
@hellionthesagereborn no, what's happening here is that you are making a claim. "That nesting/ stay at home momming is biologically based." To this I respond, "what evidence do you have for such a claim." You give links, I state that those evidences are fallacious and do not actually validate your point in the slightest. You state that I don't like science, then we repeat again. The problem here is that you don't know how to properly ascertain information about the claim you are purporting and just think if you say I'm being unscientific then you win because you misread a news article.
@hellionthesagereborn Actually, the increased rate of divorce has a lot to do with the fact that it became easier to get divorced. Today, you can just claim irreconcilable differences. That wasn't the case in the past. Couples had to state a reason, have a witness, then hope the judge would find the claim valid and grant the divorce.
@ladsin Right, you said you wanted evidence at which point I provided it. You said that wasn't good enough I need more, so I provided that. Then you said well that doesn't count because I don't like what it says so you must be wrong. Thats generally how this goes, all the studies done by multiple groups with good methodology and for multiple reasons all leading to the same conclusion must be wrong because it doesn't fit your world view never mind that men and women are different (anatomically, biochemically, neurologically, psychologically, and genetically) and are built to perform sperate but equally important taks (all of which revolve around reproduction) and that we are happiest fullfilling those roles because those who where where more dedicated to those roles which increased the odds of their offsprings survival. Its not that it doesn't make sense, or the multiple studies that corroborate it are wrong, its that you don't like what it says.
Yes but why? That's the question why is it that women who are the ones who want to get married are now divorcing so often for no apparent reason? They are dissatisfied with their marriages (plus the fact that the government forces their husbands to continue giving them money and resources even if they are separate definintely makes the decision easier for them). Whats causing the dissatisfaction? Everything I stated is accurate, backed by multiple studies which I linked to. This notion that divorce just happens is flawed. Their is always a reason for it.
@hellionthesagereborn men report higher satisfaction levels in their marriage than women, no wonder women would file more. There's no inkling that they are unsatisfied because they are allowed in the workplace though. And no, most of what you have stated has not been validated, and the links you gave that you think supported your case I showed to be fallacious.
@ladsin Yes men do claim that and yes women are unhappy but again, you didn't address any reason why this is the case, I provided evidence as to one reason why this is. As for you proving the links false, when did you do that? You said they where wrong, you stated that since the first link had other people in the group (but it was predominantly stay at home mothers) it becomes invalidated which isn't exactly true but I whent along with it and provided another. You then said it doesn't count because things change and reasons and thats why its not possible to compare the happiness of women in the past to women now, which of course is not an argument its dismissal which makes it an invalid argument.
@ladsin Then as far as I can tell with the other three or four links you just ignored outright because again, you didn't like what they said. So, no you didn't prove anything you said they don't count because you don't like them and then said you where right because "reasons" and I was wrong because, again being the only person here who provided evidence from multiple sources doesn't make you feel good so it doesn't count. cdn.webfail.com/upl/img/e8d28a5ca50/feat1.jpg
@hellionthesagereborn oh boy. The first I said was fallacious because you only mentioned part of the group and not the group itself, in addition it said that in term of happiness there was no difference, but that members of that group could feel more fulfilled. You did not then provide another you provided both at the same time and never even discussed either, but the second I stated that the results were skewed because you were relating the happiness of women who just got back their fathers, sons, husbands, etc from one of the largest wars to right now when when we are in an economic recession. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like them, and you constantly stating that doesn't help your case at all bud. It just shows that either you can't or won't think rationally on this subject and instead decide to keep purporting a stance that is not evidentially true
@ladsin Yeah I provided those two, then you made your claim then I provided links showing that conservative women who tend to be more traditional are happier then liberal women who tend to be considerablly less traditional. I then provided a link showing that sexual interactions decrease the more egalitarian the relationship is, I then provided a link that showed that women who are with men who show what they called "benevolent sexism" i. e. where traditional in their views where actually significantly happier in their relationships. Did you forget that part?
This right here. I agree with it completely I prefer traditional gender roles. With divorce rates over 50%, you can't claim the modern approach is working. School does basically try to brainwash children into a feminist, socialist ideology. Most women would prefer to stay at home if their husbands made enough. I don't think there's anything wrong with women working (I work 40 hours a week to support myself) but everybody I work with complains about having to work, so I'm sure most women would be happier if they didn't have to work. I know I'd rather have a loving husband and keep his house all day and prepare it for him to come home than trade my time for money
@Idonthaveausername Most women would. In fact the women who say they wouldn't are generally women who have never actually made the attempt. They "know" they wouldn't like it because they have been told their entire life that its bad.
I love patriarchy.
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But thats not how it works. Women always had the ability to do as they wished so long as they remained unmarried. It was only married women who had to adhere to these roles and that was because marriage was a reproductive contract, it was meant for reproduction and women taking time out of their careers for the nine months of pregnancy and the several years of nursing would mean the family would starve meanwhile the man would be sitting around as a redundint parent as he would only be able to do part of what the woman could do. Your arguing against biology at this point. As for stay at home dads, most of those marriages where the father stays home end in divorce, initiated mostly by the woman because she doesn't want that (no matter how often women claim otherwise she wants a man who is ambitious and a worker). We are not built for it at least as far as family goes, hence women sacrificing career for family constantly.
no one cares. go write a book- wait because you can't because girls can't read
@hellionthesagereborn Maybe you believe this because your own father brainwashed you into believing it. I know stay-at home dads who live in very successful relationships. Besides, the divorce rate among heterosexual couples is very high in general (in most western countries, it's around 50%. I have never read about couples with stay-at home husbands having a higher divorce rate. I also think it's a stupid over-generalization to claim that all women like men who work outside their home ("and if they disagree with me, they must be lying"). That's like claiming that all men prefer submissive stay-at-home wives, which is just as untrue.Finally, it's absolutely preposterous to say that men can only do part of what women do around the house. That's only lazy macho assholes who use their maleness as an easy opt-out so they don't have to help with anything. I can cook, I can vacuum, I can do the laundry and iron my shirts, I can't think of any house chore that only my girlfriend can do.
The 1 in 100 women who feel differently can choose to not follow traditional gender roles.
@spartan: Ah yes, did you just pull that number out of your ass? There are tons of women who don't agree with traditional gender roles, just as their are tons of men who don't agree with them either. But of course you can't (or don't want) to see that because guys like you can only see everything in black or white. Everything's gotta be a generalization.
@BlueCoyote Maybe you disagree because society has brain washed you? Whats the point of that statement? It can be as easily applied to you as to me which brings us back to square one, which is who has the facts. As for my father, no he did not in fact my parents both worked and both adhere to the general propaganda. I believe this because statistics state this as true. It shows that this is the usual way things end that if men stay at home and the woman works women are disatisfied and divorce is much more likely to occur. So, I belive it because of science and statistics not because of ancedotal evidence which may or may not be true. Its kind of like saying that since I had an abusive child hood but turned out all right abuse has no negative impact on a person. That would be an absurd conclusion to come to, hence ancedotal evidence being a logical fallacy.
@BlueCoyote Whats wrogn with your argument is that your trying to argue feelings which are completely irrelevent. You can feel like gravity is wrong, but its not going to stop you from hitting the ground. What you have and have not heard is also not a legitamate claim, again I can say that I have not heard any of your arguments therefore your wrong, does that sound like a logical counter argument? No. I have provided countless studies that all verify what I stated (on @Cool-Relax comment), and yes most men preffer submissive women and most women preffer traditional men, its been shown that these couples rate the highest level of happiness and sexual satisfaction while egalitarian couples for instance have much lower levels of sexual activity and are less happy. Your arguing against biology and evolution. Further more claiming that men can give birth and nurse a child (the only things I said a man could not do) is literally the most idiotic claim I have ever heard.
Lol, love it!
So the role isn't bad. It's the coercion to fit that role that is bad, which really has nothing to do with the role. It has everything to do with your personal freedoms.
Actually there are and have always been societies where they will stick a guy to your head, literally or implicitly, if you don't conform to your role. So it's not just expectations and peer pressure.
Traditional masculinity is Ned Stark or J. R. R. Tolkien,
Give me a legolas then or maybe a masive pale white orc.
age: 30-35. lmfao.
Is this a joke? Who filled your head with that nonsense?
@lewismh smh rofl! age: 15. have your balls dropped yet? Good luck! xD
@TheSpartan your dad, bro.
Is that supposed to be some sort of comeback?
@TheSpartan awe shucks! I'll try again later.
do u want me to remind u of ur age again?
@lewismh do I need to you remind you have a ways to go? Good luck fuckboy.
Apparently you never bothered to go yours considering you're deadass arguing like a 12 y/o and using the word "fuckboy." ps hope it didn't hurt 2 much when u hit the wall unmarried
@lewismh you don't own slang asshole? And if you haven't noticed, I dropped to your damn level pretty early on.
perceiving. but even though men are challenged in being objective it does not mean gender roles were good for them either.. gender roles are as it sounds reducing a person to their sex and determining hat they should be regardless of who they are. blocks individual growth. weakens peoples ability to three and be strong adults. its bad for the culture the economy the country. no one thins for themselves and they become dependent upon arbitrary rules. its like never standing up for yourself. even though men were suppose to appear indecent they were just being yes men. it take courage to be who you really are and a long as you're fitting yourself into a cult like mentality you can never find your strength or courage. its funny bc america i alway boating of individualism but so many people are obsessed with 'roles' in who case its no different than countries that supposedly dictate how the citizens must behave.
keep in min you're 20 so you're speaking praisingly of a system you never were forced to live through. it was not a choice it was a law. punishable by isolation exile torture prison an death in cases.
especially for women
Are periods so stressful and draining?
@airishere yes very... hurts a lot, it feels like someone punched me in my stomach, back and privates and keeps punching me every 5 minutes. The pain is so much my hands loose sensation and my legs feel numb and swollen.
Oops. It happens this way to women in general as well?I have always envied women Because of their beauty and aesthetics.Seriously, imostly wish I was a woman. Everything about a woman is better than a man in my opinion
@airishere I don't know why don't you post a question.Many times I wish I was a man lol. Only recently I've accepted my gender.I get blood flowing out of me every month for 5 days.I get pain during ovulation when I can get pregnant.I get pain during first time I have sex.I can't open jars without hurting my hands.I need a ladder for almost everything.I can't walk as fast as a guy.I can't get aggressive like a guy to protect me. I learnt self defence but the guys who know self defence are better than me always due to their strength. I always get stalked followed, perved on.Men just think when I'm walking alone they can do whatever they want.Always scared of being attacked.Giving birth hurts. Carrying a baby hurts.Sex sometimes hurts if I am not aroused. Everything just hurts... l:
I get emotional and cry randomly.I think everyone is sweet and loving so I think stupid. My logic goes out of window when my emotions kick in. I get too emotional.
Not every man is tall. Not every man is muscular and well built.Not every man runs fast and can fight easily.You don't get pregnant everyday.Your periods end at a certain age and then you all are free from periods.But a mas beard and body hairs never end and he has to either live with them or shave shavr and shave and still get stubbly prickly regrowth till the day he dies.Some men have way way way more hairs all over the body making them feel and look like a beast.Being next to women for such men is a nightmare because the deep contrast between his furriness and her bare skin makes him look more wild beast
@airishere ugh... its like I am talking to a brick wall. Giving birth and periods are less painful then having fur hair on your body._. I don't like what you said but I feel massive anger.
As a fur laden man I feel this way.Having fur is hell. It's mental pain.It's emotional pain.Being sexually repulsive to the opposite gender is a huge pain and gives you the feeling of worthlessness.You won't get to know that
@airishere ugh its not a turn off to women._. Well at least not me, just find women who like hair
If you talk about women in general, it's a turn off thing.Some accept it for sake of love for their man, bit don't really appreciate it anyway
@airishere ugh.. everyone likes different things some women like hairy men... post a question.. maybe I will
Ok. Let's see.Get back to me when you ask and the answers come in as I expected them to be.Anti fur , lolLet's see!Keeping a watch on your question about this
@airishere its in sexual section. I've asked it.
I am incredibly familiar with history.
I would be proud to die on the frontlines so my lovely wife could stay safe.
Good because nobody will miss you.
I imagine she, my kids, my family, and my friends would. What's your problem?
But that's how it works now?
I think you are way out of line here. What you are saying is basically exactly the way it has and still does work with very few exceptions. You seem like you would be really anxious to jump into a military combat situation. Maybe your feeble 16 year old mind might change if you were in a war torn city walking the streets on patrol and a 6 year old kid comes out of nowhere with a bomb strapped to it's body and your job is now to blow it's head off preventing from setting the bomb off killing your comrades. You used a terribly bad comparison to express your feelings on the subject matter of the question. You will improve I assume as you grow up.
@katiesmuff go back to ISIS.
It's ISIS that I would like our men in uniform to eradicate from the face of this earth and it is ISIS that would have the bomb strapped to the kid!
Not true. I'm against them and I'm NOTHING that you described. I have this thing called RESPECT.
I'm not Muslim.
Neither was Mother Teresa... neither were women before feminism
I don't understand your point.
That headcovering is almost global tradition. Islam is just one of the many cultures (like ours) which has had headcovering since time immemorial.Even in Ancient Rome, Greece and other Indo-European societies headcovering has always been the way
There has never been a mandate for women to cover their heads in the Christian West.
Nonsense. You're either very ignorant, or a phoney Christian trying to feminize religion because your true allegiance lies with FEMINISM and not Christianity. Christian women have ALWAYS covered their heads until feminism. Headcovering is mandated by Christianity:"if a woman does not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. If it is a disgrace for a woman to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her own head.""A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God... but woman is the glory of man"You are a traitor to Christians and a traitor to mankind. Your only religion is feminism.
You're fucked in the head, man.
Nice seeing you resort to personal insults in the face of facts
First you tried to twist history but when I destroyed you with facts you started the feminist's typical ad hominem attacks.
You're just speaking nonsense. There is nothing to criticize, because you're not saying anything.
Historical (pre-feminist) facts about Christians are nonsense? Biblical quotes which mandate female headcovering is nonsense? hahaha.Wake up!! I'm not your enemy. Women are our worst enemies
You should look up "christian headcovering" before coming back here. Or are you just evil like ISIS... trying to destroy history to suit your (feminist) agenda?Feminists hate facts!!
They were rigorously-developed over millions of years.
then why are those women online screaming about it? Seems like something is up...
Because unhappy feminist women like bitching about nothing.
and why are they unhappy? Maybe it is not nothing..
Because they've convinced themselves that being a housewife is somehow awful.
How do you know this? Are you secretly a housewife and know about everything that they go through? :o