What is Gaslighting to you?

[razelove]

Sounds like typical online interaction

Other people have said I do this, to which I reply that they need help. Obviously this is gas-lighting, even if they are saying objectively insane things.

So, let's explore this topic, can anyone share some examples?

[Anonymous]

Gas lighting is to the best of my knowledge is a specific technique, whether known consciously to the person or not where in a person who is attempting to gain or extend control of another person disputes the controllees perception of reality, pressuring them to accept the controllers version of reality.

The controllers version of reality does not need to be consistent and arguably, to be sure that someone really is trying to gas light a person, rather than for example simply being wrong and also an asshole, is that they, the controller are pressuring the controllee to accept ever changing versions of reality.

In any case, the purpose of gas lighting is to destablise a persons mind and break their will, to question their own ability to percieve reality correctly and accept the reality given to them by their controller.

To my mind this is not really something that comes alone, it is mostly or exclusively the act of a narcissist as part of a campaign of narcissistic abuse and control.

People like to exaggerate, which is particularly unhelpful with this subject because the victim of real narcissistic abuse could have a hard time finding allies and support due to the nature of the attack they are under as a narcissist will likely attempt to undermine any support their victim may have from others and can change like Jeykl and Hyde in a way that some would find hard to believe if they have not experienced such things themselves / before.

Most of the examples in your post are, to my mind, not gas lighting and potentially counter productive / damaging for the reasons i have outlined.

[DarkCarousel]

Great explanation!

[razelove]

That is extremely interesting. It's horrible, but fascinating, like watching a train-wreck. You're also absolutely correct that pissing and moaning about minor BS like losing an online argument belittles people who are being mind fucked to that precise and deliberate of a degree.

Truly, that is fascinating, and sounds like it would take a ton of effort for someone engaging in that to select someone susceptible to it, maintain the pressure, and gradually warp reality back and forth until they get to the level that they can tell their subject the sky is green and they readily agree for fear that the subject would turn to "nobody loves you" or something like that.

Goddamn, I'm going to have to look into that, how did you learn about it?

[Opinion Owner]

I was mind raped by a narcissist, there really is no better explaination of what it is than to live it.

[Opinion Owner]

@razelove Regarding quote:

sounds like it would take a ton of effort for someone engaging in that to select someone susceptible to it

While it is true to say that some people are more vulnerable to this sort of attack than others it is unwise and inaccurate to believe that only x person would fall for this etc.

As with things like defrauding people etc it is easy to dismiss and think 'that could never happen to me' or those people must be stupid etc.

More people are vulnerable than you would think and you have been in contact with narcissists your whole life and likely could not say who they all were, they hide in plain sight and are hard wired to be expert manipulators.

A real narcissist, as i understand it, is the result of some damage very early on and in order to protect themselves they essentially hide inside themselves and put up layered masks to protect their cores. The reason they control is because what you control can't hurt you and also to extract validation that they cannot give to themselves.

So you should really respect (as in recognition not admiration) the fact that these people have spent their entire lives, or most of their lives honing their abilities and mastering their craft and also that they are entirely dependant on this game that they play.

The motivation would put the most commited religious zealot to shame, they HAVE TO do what they do, they are compelled and it colours every thought and act in their lives.

Some sympathy should be shown to them also, if you can muster it, they are really victims, frightened and alone children who can't be any other way at the core but it is hard to excuse the damage they cause and they can be pretty scary, because of the motivation, what they are capable of is extreme though how that is manifest would depend on context and available options etc.

[Asmir1999]

You nailed it with your explanation.

[Jean-Marie_Céline]

Gaslighting is the practice of making someone doubt their own mental sanity and wellbeing by presenting lies as truth, with the result of making her/him question their thoughts, memories, and recollection of events.
I'm sorry you are getting accused like that, frankly said accusing someone of gaslighting when they aren't is ironically in itself a form of gaslighting.
I agree with you that people who throw such accusations eagerly and without reasons do need help.

I don't see how you could be gaslighting since you have always been straightforward and honest as far as I know.
But that said, I too got accused of portraying a "fake image that everything is wonderful" regarding my attitude and pictures, "on par with Scientology" (cit.).

[razelove]

Heh, you're pretty blunt too, you've presented some pretty happy, and really grim scenarios. I don't think you're slinging any BS around, and agree that people who casually sling terms like gas-lighting and racist, among others, around are guilty of the same themselves.

[Jean-Marie_Céline]

Thank you for your kind words, I do my best to be direct but as of late I've been doing my best to cut down my temper.
Evidently this irked some people who liked when I was more "biting"...

[razelove]

Screw them, be yourself, wherever that takes you man. I've endured my temp ban (close call with it being a permanent one) and content being taken down. Actions have consequences after all, and the admins have a business to run. I have a me to be.

We do all change as the years go by though. If you're getting more mellow, that isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, it is what it is. Do what you feel is best for you. It took me a while to learn that regardless of who else is in my life, only person looking at me in the mirror is me.

[Pekli93]

loool
Keep crying fat boy

[Xoxocutekitty]

Gaslighting is lying bullying combined.

A little white lie here and there isn't a big deal, but robbing someone an opinion or perspective to the point of them doubting their memory, credibility, and self esteem is quite horrid.

It's a catch 22 where people of integrity don't do it, and people do it because they don't have integrity. It'd a really shifty thing to do and it's really hard to get out of it. Especially since the person who gaslights others, usually does so in a place where they have more power... to get away with it. To have their words merely believed or tolerated over someone else's.

We all play this 'we're all equal, everyone entitled to their opinion' game, and yet it's not true. In old money corporations, women just don't have the same believability as their male coworkers and we see this in reverse as a men working some woman dominated company are viewed as more ornamental.

We see this in sports and online gaming, where there is power, there is abuse of power.

[razelove]

If this is something you see on a regular with your own eyes, you need to up your own skills in manipulation. I had to when I worked corporate, eat or be eaten, nothing minor like gas-lighting, but getting people fired, pushing responsibility onto others without letting them know so they fail. Hacking their computers, intimidation, at about that point I figured the job wasn't worth it and got the hell out.

[Malwi93]

This

[angeliquedevereux2]

Mother Gothel from Tangled- that's the purest embodiment of gaslighting I've ever seen. 'Oh great, now I'm the bad guy'

[razelove]

Oh, that is a fantastic reference. She is such a good "bad guy", just her dagger and a revolving door of meat shields she uses. Your name sounds Cajun, are there Cajuns in Australia?

[angeliquedevereux2]

Eh I wouldn't know much about cajuns, I'm from no French decent despite what my name would lead you to believe
And yeah she's my favourite Disney villian, so realistic and her song is amazing 👌

[goaded]

Your question appeared right next to this one:
Do you believe the presidential election was stolen from Trump through voter fraud?

Apparently there are at least 56 victims of gaslighting on this site, alone.

[razelove]

Could you be more specific? I don't want to draw conclusions from inference rather than an explicit explanation and understanding. If it's about the polarization of politics I think that's more confirmation bias to an extreme degree where those who strongly support either party are truly living in two different worlds at this point.

That phrase is thrown around a lot very lightly when confronted with facts rather than opinions that challenge that entrenched bias. Again, correct me if my assumption is wrong in what direction you were taking that.

[goaded]

The presidential election was not stolen from Trump through voter fraud, or in any other way.

[razelove]

Honestly I'd rather think the election was stolen then that the majority of Americans would vote for someone suffering from Alzheimer's. I liked where Trump's policies were going, but as our legislative body and judicial branch kept him crippled, he was an ineffective president.

Biden toured on a promise of I don't promise anything and won't discuss specific policies or goals. His main platform was "I'm not Trump". Regardless, I'd have felt better if all of America had voted for Chuck Norris, that's the most terrible choice given in an election that I've seen in my life.

Most people have a problem with all the new mechanisms introduced to voting during the last election, lack of accountability, and magical last minute votes appearing out of thin air. Democrats felt the same when George W. got his brother to recount Florida. Logic goes both ways, if there was no fraud in this election then there was none between Gore and Bush.

You live in the far left world as this question has absolutely nothing to do with politics. I'm open to either idea, voter fraud happens in every election, maybe it happened to a degree that affected the outcome in the last one, maybe America wants to be represented by a feeble, dying man. Neither one is an appealing outcome.

Anyway, regardless of whether it happened or not, voting machines are digital, it'll become a trend in politics to spend a couple million on hiring hackers rather than organizing an extra couple rallies. What would you think to voting with a fingerprint on paper paired with voter ID? Election fraud would be near impossible to commit. I don't consider ballot harvesting for cash to be fraud, if a vote is for sale, then you can buy it.

[goaded]

And you say people accuse you of gaslighting? I wonder why.

[razelove]

Say what you mean, I had to ask you for clarification from the start because you're so passive aggressive that I have no idea what you're talking about. Please explain how I am twisting your narrative, or reality to make you question your own sanity. With big boy words.

If me saying I'm open to new ideas is gaslighting, you set the bar really low there sport.

[goaded]

It's not hard to understand. The aftermath of the 2020 election provides multiple examples of gaslighting.

Saying a few cases of voter fraud means it's possible Trump had the election stolen from him is gaslighting.

Republican leaders carefully choosing to say "Biden is the POTUS", instead of answering a straightforward question of whether Biden won fair and square, is gaslighting.

Pretending that Jan 6th was a normal visitors day, when there are pictures of you helping barricade the door to the chamber and looking terrified is gaslighting.

Nobody thought the 2016 election would be won by a serial liar, but it happened and nobody claimed it was stolen. Saying otherwise is gaslighting.

The differences in 2020 were in the tens of thousands, in many states, many run by Republicans. The Bush Gore election came down to hundreds of votes in one state of roughly 10 million voters run, as you say, by Bush's brother. It was worth taking the time to check the votes. Saying the 2020 election was remotely similar is gaslighting.

There was a peaceful transition of power in both 2001 and 2017.

In other words, the 56 people who voted that they thought the election was stolen are victims of gaslighting.

[razelove]

Going by your logic wanting to have civil discourse is gas-lighting. You're making many assumptions about me, yet I have made no concrete statements except that our president is feeble and has Alzheimer's.

You have an agenda, and I don't have time for your bullshit.

[goaded]

The kind of civility that involves diagnosing someone with Alzheimer's, we can do without.

[The_Outlaw]

In short, blaming you for the shit they've done to avoid any and all responsibility. Playing the victim to garner sympathy. Oh woe is me. Poor me. Lying. Twisting and distorting facts. All the not so good stuff. Gas lighters are best left avoided. I've dealt with one before and I'm better off without her in my life.

[razelove]

Sorry you had to deal with that. My first marriage had a lot of manipulation. On the bright side of things, it's something I'll never put up with again.

[The_Outlaw]

Thanks but I DODGED a serious bullet. Unfortunately there were feelings on my side of the fence and mine alone. Fortunately, that's been corrected. But the only real thing she ever 'loved' about me was the attention she was receiving.

[SalvatoreCordileone]

By the early 1800s, gas street lights were becoming common in most major cities, and the installation of gas lighting systems was well underway. Very late in the 19th century and early in the 20th century, electricity gradually replaced gas as the source of lighting, with the interesting period of dual-fuel fixtures that could use either gas or

[razelove]

Ha, I actually know what you're talking about, we have a lot of the dual fixtures in new orleans that can run off natural gas like a lantern, alongside the same street-lights outer cage containing an electric bulb using the gas line to run the line in.

I wish that "gas-lighting" was that literal and less subjective lol

[loves2learn]

The last one for the most part. Saying you are wrong or imagining things.
.
Or saying they were “just kidding” when they say something offensive. No. Just don’t.

[razelove]

Yeah, I've slapped the taste out of people's mouth for that one, then said "just kidding!" to put it in perspective.

[loves2learn]

Mkay. That does sound very gaslighting-ish

[oldasIfeel22]

It’s mental gymnastics where someone else says or does something wrong (and they know it) but instead of owning up to it they try to manipulating you into thinking it’s your fault. It’s a disgusting power/bully tactic that is favored by sociopaths.

[razelove]

I'd agree with the manipulation, but a true sociopath wouldn't care about whether you think they're in the right or not. Only about if there are negative consequences and how to avoid them.

A psychopath might though, I don't claim to be an expert there, but from my understanding psychos are the more calculating ones, and likely to use tools like that, whereas someone simply lacking empathy would just walk away when it ceases to be a benefit.

[oldasIfeel22]

There are different gradations of sociopathy where someone who is slightly sociopathic may have a bad reputation for being conceited but had rare yet genuine empathetic moments. The other end of the spectrum is a full psychopath. The scary part is these people can be excellent actors. They are usually real charming.

However not all psychopaths are evil. Some of them have been raised in the right environment where they know the ethical difference between right and wrong. Although they don’t feel empathy they do know on a logical basis it’s better to treat others respectfully for the ultímate benefit of their own life presence.

Anyway I had to end a 12 year friendship with a dude that is (slightly) sociopathic. I’ve met much worse people then him but I finally figured him out. Everything he does has a long game of benefiting himself. For a while I thought he was okay but the last 2 years he stopped hiding the ball.

It kind of sucks. It’s just sad because at my age it’s not getting any easier to make new friends. Most people I know are married and they got to devote themselves to their wives and kids. Not an easy choice. But I’ve met one too many sociopaths in my life to keep on dealing with them.

[dolphin101]

Gaslighting is when you make someone question their sense of reality, by manipulating what actually happened. A classic case is when someone doesn't own up to what they did or said, or changing something, for eg. the friend-zone after very clearly dating someone.

[razelove]

Ok, I get that, at the same time I don't see the need for the term, it just sounds like manipulation or conning someone to me. In your example that sounds more like a cowardly break-up. Call it for what it is, they're too much of a little bitch to break things off and hope you will be too by not pointing as much out.

[PaynefulPleasures]

Part of narcissitic, psychopathic, sociopathic, behavior. One of their many key traits.

[razelove]

You can only be two out of the three though, psycho and sociopath are exclusionary. Neither feels empathy, but a sociopath has a conscience while a psycho does not going by clinical definition. Anyone can be a narcissist though.

I'd agree that manipulation is a good sign to get some distance from someone. Regardless of if they're psycho, sociopath, whatever, I find it more dangerous if someone can change their narrative to believe a flexible narrative over reality like that.

[PaynefulPleasures]

After working in the medical field for many years I think I know what I'm talking about
Thanks for sharing

[Archerer]

Psychopath and sociopath are clinically the same thing

[Anonymous]

My boyfriend does this to me sometimes, but i don't think he is aware. We'll come up with an idea, implement the idea, it goes wrong and he blames it all on me, and says that he should never listen to my ideas.

[razelove]

That isn't a good partnership. I can't think of any "we" ideas my wife and I have had. We each have our own, and when our goals align (as they most often do) we work together and think of ways to achieve those goals. Either way, if I have an idea, she has an idea, whatever, if it fails or succeeds and we're both behind it, we both failed or succeeded.

Does he push it on you when it's his goal you're supporting rather than a common one, or one of your own? I mean, if you truly crash plans, the easy solution is to just fly solo on accomplishing things rather than involving you again and again. It sounds like he's the insane one if that's truly the case lol

[Opinion Owner]

I'll explain what the situation is. He got into the idea of having a threesome with himself, me and another guy. i did not like the idea as much, much prefer another girl. During intimate moments he would get very excited and want to ask one of his friends to be the third guy and i'd say no no no, but he wanted to weigh out the pros and cons of asking a friend or a stranger. And for us it came to a friend was probably better to ask. After a while i gotten to like the idea and thought why not give it a try. He then jumped to asking his friends which i was okay with since we thought it would be better. As i thought the friend rejected the idea as he couldn't do this to his friends girlfriend, which is 100% understandable. He then went to ask another friend who said i wasn't attractive to him therefore he said no. After two friends rejected the idea, he then yes told me he should never listen to my ideas and blamed it on me.

[razelove]

... So you fucked up the idea by being open to it? Damn, he just closed the book on himself enjoying that FFM scenario. My wife and an ex opened me up to that, though basically every other woman I've brought in since then has been through my own effort. I'm certainly not dense enough to turn her off to the idea of me sleeping with other women every now and then, much less the more difficult task of having threesomes with those lovelies.

What a dumbass. Mistake one was if you weren't cool with it in the first place, don't push it. Just like I'd imagine you weren't pushing him to get with another girl. Less with the MMF, but other open dynamics I've heard of other guys doing the same. Like a girl who parted with me on good terms, her boyfriend wanted an open relationship because he was convinced he'd be swimming in poon. Instead she was drowning in her pick of penis, and he blamed her for not getting his wish fulfillment.

Some boys don't turn into men just because they get their long curlies lol

[TommyMountainFigure]

Gaslighting? :)) I need a newer dictionary. The last one I bought has NONE of these words I see used on here.

[razelove]

I get that feeling very often

[IAMNathanael]

I don't know what that means, I hear it sometimes. I'm just here for the answers

[razelove]

Fair enough

[Exterminatore]

Leading someone to believe something they experienced with one of their senses did not happen or does not exist.

[razelove]

Ok, so like I had thought in the beginning, a possible manipulation technique, but not online.

[Exterminatore]

I mean you could on line. I think a lot of the Qanon crowd for example are being gaslighted.

Biden is clearly the president. Whether he won legitimately or not is a matter for debate. Telling people his not really president while saying Trump is just waiting in the wings and that there will be a military tribunal to reinstate him and blah blah blah is gaslighting. One can clearly and objectively see Biden is in office and Trump is not.

I think gas lighting is different from lying and deception because it usually involves the senses. As in the scenario in that movie where the term came from.

[razelove]

I think the Q crowd is more a religion than a movement at this point. I also agree that objective reality, Biden is CIC, whether it was a legit election or not, ironically is something we won't know because of how flaccid and weak Republicans are.

I do think it's accurate at this point to label Q at least a cult if not a religion. It's just a ball of conspiracy theories leaving its members to draw their own conclusions from them, but they get to be part of a special group learning and fighting them! They have belief, simply because we don't understand it doesn't make it any less potent.

It reminds me of when I was a kid, that need to belong. Some people will do about anything to fulfill that urge, you see the same in gangs where low level members don't get shit and do the most risky work.

[Exterminatore]

I think cult is certainly fair. I think you make a number of valid points.

[OnTheLevel]

It's making someone question their own recollection and sanity by insisting revisionist false information is true.

[razelove]

Like progressives? lol

[OnTheLevel]

Most politicians, actually.

[DarkCarousel]

This is a very concise explanation. Couldn't have said it better.

[razelove]

Touche, I can't argue with the politics side. Though "both sides" spout different ideologies, they work hand in hand to strip us of rights, wealth, and hope that our children will have a better future than us since JFK was shot. They yell at each other in public, then have whiskey together with each other in closed chambers while making heaps of money off dividing us.

Our representatives.

[Archerer]

What I’ve found is that anyone who has accused me of gaslighting has legit been crazy and uses the term to dismiss me. Which is pretty ironic if you ask me

[razelove]

I've been finding the same. It's safe to say there are at least 2 or 3 people in this thread I've argued with before. One thing I'm always consistent about when arguing or standing up for a set of views is if they're based on "facts" more so than opinions, I'm always open to the idea that I'm wrong.

So far I find those who accuse of gas-lighting go for an A=B approach and call you racist, sexist, whatever by equating two completely different subjects that lack even a causal link. Also citing opinions as facts, which again, if we're only arguing over what "I think is right" valid, 100%. If there is anything objective in the core of that argument though, subjective views take a back-seat there.

Seems like the left accuses of it more, and don't get me wrong, not just towards the right, but towards their own as well.

[Archerer]

I’ll give you that the left probably uses it more, but the right being based in fact is complete horseshit, maybe you are personally but the right is the birth place of misinformation, bad science, and “alternative facts.” But the far left and the far right are beginning to look more and more the same.

[razelove]

I agree with your last sentence the most. Though on both sides I think those are the politicians and very few people with enormous amounts of resources pushing those views. Individuals simply aren't uniting into communities because of cowardice and lack of imagination. When the right started confronting fake news I was excited... until they presented fake news themselves to counter it. Now you have to read a take from both sides and reach your own conclusion even on what should be quantifiable and objective facts.

The Fauci emails are a good example there. Something fishy is certainly going on, the left is treating him like a saint, and the right is trying to frame him up for single-handedly being responsible, though the truth is more likely that he's simply a politician with some dirty deals and ulterior motives like any other.

[Aimée__LJ]

Often the person who says you are gaslighting is actually the gaslighter themselves. Aka projecting.

[razelove]

That's what I've noticed as well after actually looking it up. Before actually looking up the term I just thought it meant false accusation from context. Where people put opinions as facts, and toss that out along with other things. I just ignored them in the past, but got curious this time around.

[Anonymous]

what the democrats are doing is nasty and dirty! the right has never went this far, this proves higher powers are at play most likely foreign entities that are trying to overthrow our society and Joe and the democrats are letting it happen.

[razelove]

Joe and democrats are driving, Republicans and voters on both sides are the ones "letting it happen"

[John_Doesnt]

When a woman says I'm gas lighting I always respond by saying "Gas lighting isn't real you stupid bitch."

[razelove]

So you too are a man of culture! lol

[Tinaaas]

Oml the last one for sure. Calling someone crazy or irrational or saying they're imagining things
I've had it done to me multiple times

[razelove]

What if it's true though? I have had many friends who are mentally unstable, and there is a window of time before they get into a "spell" where you can talk and try to make some plans before a bi-polar episode, or schizophrenic break.

[Tinaaas]

I mean it could be true yes. This is the tricky part ig

[OddBeMe]

Gaslighting is impossible to the human brain. If you don’t beleive me, you’re crazy.

[DarkCarousel]

Nice!

[razelove]

I am crazy, but I don't believe that gaslighting can exist in an online venue.

[OddBeMe]

Here’s my bank account info and social security #

[Chthou95]

When you call someone out on something and they say you're the crazy one or you need to change yourself.

[razelove]

That sounds about right with what I've seen so far.

[princeofromance]

Gaslighted has several different definitions. I do not think we will ever truly know what it is or means. I guess it depends on one's perspective of the term Gaslighting.