The study compiled 3 categories of crime for the UK
4 for the US
UK was
Most serious sexual crime Robbery Violence against person with injury
The US was the Murder & non negligent manslaughter Forcible rape Robbery Aggravated assault Violent crime defined for the US here is force or threat of force
So, you can argue the US is more all encompassing with the “threat of force” being counted in
Criminals are more careful when they know that citizens might be armed. Beyond that, citizens often fight back against attack.
The most conservative estimates of DGU (defensive gun use) instances are well over 100,000 per year. But I also read once that the DOJ estimated the number at more like 1.5 million. Some estimates are as high as 3.5 million.
Compare 100,000 to 1.5 million annual DGU instances to 16,000 to 20,000 firearm related homicides, 80% of which are gang related, according to the FBI.
DGU doesn't necessarily mean a weapon was fired. In most cases, the mere sight of a weapon deters a criminal.
So how many instances of rape, robbery, brutality, trauma and murder are prevented by an armed populace?
In England and Wales, people (they are royal subjects, not citizens) are walking victims. It is actually illegal for them to defend themselves in any way. If they do, they are charged with assault and possible other crimes. They can also be subjected to civil suits for injuring a piece of shit.
Source? I mean, if this is based on local definitions of what constitutes “violent crime”, comparing the numbers is immediately methodologically not sound. At that point, it’s an irrelevant statistic and pointless to share.
If the definitions are equal in methodology and the numbers are correct, there are likely actual academic studies that go into the reasons why the crime rate differ as much.
In other words, if the definition of violent crime is not the same, this question is pointless. You’re comparing two different sets lf crimes
Comparing crime rates across countries is inherently extremely difficult, unless definitions and methodologies are more standardized (such as within countries)
The link attempts to replicate more real numbers by hsing the same definition, but that is also methodologically not sound
The definition of the UK is more broad because it includes more than those specific crimes of the FBI definition of violent crime. For example, all “sexual offences” are included in the UK, which is clearly broader than “forcible rapes” (as in the US).
If the numbers are not drawn with the same methodology (both in collection of data and definitions), comparisons are indeed fairly pointless.
Why? Because you can’t reasonably compare different figures as if they are the same
The study compiled 3 categories of crime for the UK
4 for the US
UK was
Most serious sexual crime Robbery Violence against person with injury
The US was the Murder & non negligent manslaughter Forcible rape Robbery Aggravated assault Violent crime defined for the US here is force or threat of force
And for the record, if not published in a serious academic journal (or credible newspaper), I’m gonna have a really hard time taking it that seriously.
Claiming this “fact” to be true is a pretty weird hill to die on if the source you use invalidates usage of that figure as a valid comparison.
Unless you actually have a valid study that attempts to mitigate for all of the fundamental problems that come with comparing crime rates (and this is way beyond definitions as well), there’s no point in even beginning to think about comparing them
But the similarity is close enough to make a good enough comparison between two similar countries when it comes to how they define things, specifically crime.
Also, when you factor in that ONLY England & Wales were used and not the entire UK
The number must surely be higher, in regards to crime rate of the entirety of the UK.
What is the point of all of this? Well, it’s to show that a place like the UK, despite not allowing their citizens or 90% of their police to carry or own firearms….
Doesn’t make it a necessarily safer place when it comes to victimization of crime.
Ugh. Do you understand that in statistics, the definition of the observation matters but that the methodology used to obtain these observations matters a lot?
If the methodology is not equal, the observations are not equal, even if the definitions are equal. And if the observations are not equal, they are not the same metric. And if they are not the same metric, you can’t compare them in a remotely valid manner
And well, comparing different metrics as if they represent the same thing - which by definition they can’t because they are different metrics - is indeed pointless
One thing you keep mentioning is england and Wales and not the UK, if you had included the UK the figures would be undoubtedly lower as majority of crimes happen in the major cities which are mainly in England London has much higher population than any other city in the UK, it also has the highest crime rate in the country and thus would heavily skew any data regarding crime rate per 100,000 people. Then if you combine that with our lower population would give a higher count.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
But england has a higher population so it might dilute the data a bit of the northern island. But to be fair I'd want to compare the stabbings per 100k to the USA shootings 100k on the basis that knives are the main weapon in UK and guns in the USA and compare the difference and then also actually compare like for like too guns and guns and stabbings for stabbings
Well that's not true. America has the highest murder rate in the developed world, 18 times higher in the USA vs UK. So crime is much much much worse in the UK www.nationmaster.com/.../Violent-crime
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+1 y
Maybe
But murder is just one type of violent crime.
The post above is about categories of violent crime like sexual violence, assault, and robbery.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
Proving that guns are not necessary to commit violent crimes, and removing guns from the population is not a guaranteed remedy to lower violent crimes.
You are comparing completely different methods of recording crime.
I've been over this on various forums over the years.
forums where actual intelligent people post shit.
The ONS which are the font of all knowledge record all stats as do the police.
A very simple example in what we class as Violent crime :
Violent crime covers a range of offence types from minor assaults, such as pushing and shoving that result in no physical harm, to murder. This includes offences where the victim was intentionally stabbed, punched, kicked, pushed or jostled, as well as offences where the victim was threatened with violence, regardless of injury.
so pushing, having been done for this, if I push someone in the street and the police are called, even without being arrested, it’s recorded as a violent crime, if at the same time I push past 3 people to shove someone, that’s 4 violent crimes.
First thing I would lookat is measuring system. And then on likelyhood that people report a crime. If either isn't similar the values cannot be compared. For example if each assult is reported as a new crime in one country while the other bundle up multiple assult done at the same time as one crime the numbers will be bloated in the first country. Also the more likely that a person reports a crime the more likely it is that we see the true number and the number of unprocessed crimes isn't that high.
I would of never guessed it was a more dangerous place than America cause I’ve grown up in America and was raised in a ghetto where I had to fight to keep my shoes and lunch money not always successful but did alright and watching the news on any given night there’s reports of shootings over there a murder over here and a couple robberies in between so damn it sounds like Compton in the 80s and 90s. Really I can’t picture England being worse then the United States but in the scheme of things I think coming in second in this category is nothing to be proud of and yes I know it’s not a comparison of every country that’s not the point
I'd fucking hate to live in the UK. Imagine you have to defend yourself one day and end up killing someone trying to hurt or kill you, and you're the one who's in the wrong and has to go to prison. People in this day are so retarded that they have more sympathy for the violent criminal than they do for an innocent protecting themself.
Couldn’t possibly be a history of hyper entitled colonialism could it? Like the crass vulgar attitudes recoded by Eric Williams in Capitalism and Slavery…”Gotta make hay while the sun shines.” As body parts and lives are dismembered and blood is splashed all over the planet from one side of the world to the other?
10.1K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
You just seem to love talking shit. give your ass a chance, bucko.
England and Wales are at 1.2 per 100,000 while the US is at 5.0 per 100,000
Stats are relative, as different agencies work out how homicide is measured, differently. But the fact remains that the US is much higher despite having a much larger population than the UK.
It doesn't sound right and i'd want to examine those figures to understand how you've arrived at your conclusions. Some of the other posts already cite reasons why this seems askew.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
I’ve never really put too much stock in crime statistics. With a little bit of effort they can be easily tweaked to benefit anyone’s bias. Per capita Alaska is the most violent state in the United States but living here you wouldn’t know it.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
This is not accurate. You can believe what you want and people will tell you the truth, you then ignore it rather than trying to understand that's on you.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
Nobody there is allowed to carry firearms for self defense, criminals will always have guns, the common folk should to. An armed society is a polite society.
Are we talking crime rate as in total crimes for both country’s , are we talking gun “ violence” , homicide, what? Whatever “ crime we are talking about you need to get those exact stats for each country and you need to include the entirety of the UK and the entirety of the US, Solomon Islands, Puerto Rico, etc. you cannot mix and match, or cherry pick stats to come up with the results you desire.
Me : searching internet to see where you got these numbers from Me: hm what if I type in 775 violent crimes per 100000 Me: ah yes it's from a social media post.
The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a ‘violent crime’ as one of four specific offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.
the British definition includes all ‘crimes against the person,’ including simple assaults, all robberies, and all ‘sexual offenses'
Basically the two countries aren't comparable like that because of the major difference in definitions. However the entire USA has a crime rate of 47.7 where as the entire UK has a rate of 44.54
Lowest crime rate being Qatar at 11.9 and highest being Venezuela at 84.36
@embracethepain I have just put what the UK where I live class as violent crime. Repeating it here. I push someone in view of the police or it’s recorded, then it’s a violent crime. That’s how it works, that’s how the stats are recorded.
Violent crime covers a range of offence types from minor assaults, such as pushing and shoving that result in no physical harm, to murder. This includes offences where the victim was intentionally stabbed, punched, kicked, pushed or jostled, as well as offences where the victim was threatened with violence, regardless of injury.
Look, if you’re not going to look at the link above then what’s there to argue? I’m sure they use official sources, otherwise, how could they arrive at the above numbers? I didn’t read every single thing there is to read there, just the important bits/gist of the piece.
Having had a brief read from your link, even from one of the links the source uses but totally ignores.
But Police Minister David Hanson said: 'These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.
@embracethepain this is not my first time doing this, it’s common for Spams to cite this stuff and funnily enough I know a bit about it.
Unless you go to the actual source of the information The ONS, they miss out important points such as how records and stats are derived, how the theft of 30 garden gnomes in a small village from 30 houses can make a huge increase in the theft or robbery stats. If you live near a school a lot of school problems end up on the stats.
Politifact is a very trusted cite and a lot of what they studied and cited is there regarding this topic.
I encourage everyone to read up on it because they did mention it’s difficult to compare the US and UK because definitions aren’t exactly the same but they did do their best in the same types of crimes they analyzed or compared,
@embracethepain I am actually reading your link and the articles it takes it’s information from … 2009, 2012 etc, The link I sent is 2021
Crime is recorded differently between England / Wales and how it is in Scotland, we know this so we don’t include it with the stats, that sort of tells you everyone putting the data together knows you cannot simply cross compare data.
Your 775 violent crimes include people getting pushed, such as two pensioners pushing each other in a queue during an altercation at supermarket
@embracethepain the numbers are pointless if you do not mention violent crime includes pushing and shoving.
The violent crimes for West Midlands where I used to live dramatically increased when lockdown started as the police were called to supermarkets where people had been pushing others to get to bread etc. I very much doubt the US records thst as violent crime, what is it recorded as?
When you have pensioners pushing on a bus or in town etc, what is the name of the statistic it’s recorded against?
@embracethepain read what i said at the start on what England n Wales class as violent crime
Violent crime covers a range of offence types from minor assaults, such as pushing and shoving that result in no physical harm, to murder.
Also because we don’t have guns, guys actually get in to fights on a Friday night when drunk, a simple punch up or scuffle, police do a head count and say 10, no one is arrested but it’s recorded.
Hmm can't help but noticed you deleted @RolandCuthbert answer to you. It was well thought out and had good points yet you still deleted it. I guess you aren't as interested in a good discussion as you pretend you are hmm 🤔
You cited an article that says what you've written as false. Politifact doesn't hold studies. They tell you if something said on the internet especially political is true or false. In this case it was false.
"The meme said "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U. K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States. Our preliminary attempt to make an apples-to-apples comparison shows a much smaller difference in violent crime rates between the two countries, but criminologists say differences in how the statistics are collected make it impossible to produce a truly valid comparison. We rate the claim False."
Not these are classifications of violent crime that are deemed chargeable offences, if you notice, things such as malicious phone calls, stalking etc all form part of it.
It’s like saying BDSM is about bondage and spanking but then ignoring everything else.
Even the EU when we were part of it hated trying to compare crime figures.
It is a pointless task unless you look at very specific things and have specific rules on what is classed as recordable.
Even in the UK I think it’s like how Covid deaths are recorded. Yes it’s off topic but it shows how even stats used within a country by it’s own government etc can show variation and is not a simple read across. The ONS usually read higher for most stats
The UK government show it as 136,000 deaths
The ONS show it was 158,000 deaths
When looking at the overall death toll from coronavirus, official figures count deaths in three different ways, each giving a slightly different number. First, government figures - the ones reported each day - count people who died within 28 days of testing positive for coronavirus. This figure is now more than 136,000. According to the latest ONS figures, the UK has now seen more than 158,000 deaths - that's all those deaths where coronavirus was mentioned on the death certificate even if the person had not been tested for the virus.
I will admit, I’m not going to read all of that lmfaoo
@ChrisMaster69
Thanks for having a discussion with me, but I’ll just agree to disagree even if you won’t,
I’m not saying comparing the two countries is PERFECT
To me, the definitions and categories for violent crime ONLY
Are similar enough to make a valuable and accurate comparison.
Again, not perfect.
The chasm of difference in reporting is not as big as some may make it out to be, which is why I think Politifact did a great job because they chose specific definitions and only chose VIOLENT crime.
Other things may be too different and nuanced to make such a comparison.
Thanks to you and @Smashingdoozy
For the talk, it really was polite and pleasant even if we do not particularly agree
If you've read the whole thing then you should understand that what you are saying is wrong. Maybe you don't understand what they're saying which is ok. But again it does say in it's last paragraph that they are not comparable, so if you want to use a fact check website as your source maybe make sure their conclusion lines up with yours.
You're quoting perfectly as if the article says this. Which is doesn't. They compared them to show the ways the meme compared them. Which ultimately they ruled as not a valid comparison.
Again you are saying a comparison can be made. Citing and article that's says a valid comparison cannot be made. You look stupid. The article doesn't say anywhere that only the 2000 number is false.
How big of a difference do you think exists? If the difference is so big, why did they even make the comparison? They put up numbers disproving the 2,000 when they could’ve just said “a valid comparison cannot be made”
Obviously the definitions are close/similar enough to make a good comparison.
I’m saying, they ONLY said the claim is wrong with regards to the 2,000
They then made other claims saying that comparison isn’t entirely perfect, yet they indeed made a preliminary apples to apples comparison using official figures and other information.
I literally quoted it before it doesn't say that ONLY the 2000 figure is wrong. But you STILL ignore the last part of that section where it says word for word "differences in how the statistics are collected make it impossible to produce a truly valid comparison"
The begging of the article says the claim is that the UK have far higher violent crime rates than the US. Which they deemed to be false.
Look I know I come off as a sawed-off prick the reality brings tears to my eyes I remember California when it was the shit, The hype, the place to be. You could get off a plane go to a local bar for a drink meet a girl get lucky maybe even go to work with her and gota job today fucking forget about it about it it takes corporate a fucking months to clear you are you kidding me I got pissed off when I think about it
I believe they still use it as an execution option for death penalty. So kinda legal, though gross. But then states in America still gas & electrocute people 🤷🏻♀️
I don’t think you guys are going to come to an agreeable end so let’s do this. 12 at 1 minute rounds with 3 minute breaks in between each round of bare knuckle straight up brawling kicking biting head butts eye gouging direct hits to the groin all legal. Winner takes all wooo hooo. You guys are arguing who’s country is the most violent like it’s a good thing to come in second. I mean are you just wanting to be right and convince all of us or should you state your opinions and whatever links to your sources defend your stance and leave it alone all of you are just repeating yourselves over and over. It’s captivating as far as entertainment but definitely takes away from the points you’re trying to make and dude you can’t keep saying you agree to disagree and keep arguing your point. Just let us decide for ourselves for your own piece. Come on get back to putting out more questions and other opinions on other just as interesting subjects or the bare knuckle thing sounds like fun
Meanwhile Donovan hit that nikka so hard he knocked off his helmet ⛑️ then throw them off the fire escape balcony where he need the helmet the most never try to hit a man who's about to hit it wait until after he's finished hitting it and then go get them he is less likely to fight back after he has released his load.
Someone told me… smh, there’s a reliable source and star… gee, yesterday Jack The Ripper told me meat prices are coming down, AND he’s got some prime cuts for sale…
Home > Society & Politics > Questions > England & Wales have a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000, while the US has has a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000. Your thoughts?
