Should deliberately posting misinformation get you banned?

[OddBeMe]

Wha? Fox News…misinformation…?”

Yes

No

I don't know

[Anonymous]

People have a right to be wrong, and you have the ability to discern right from wrong.

People also have the right to state inconvenient truths that may or may not hurt the feelings of the person or parties in question.

Look, I know times are tough, I know that everyone has their struggles, their opinions, their shortcomings, and their own views on what's best for the world, but there comes a point where people need to be able to look inward and decide for themselves on what's true and what isn't. It's a personal responsibility, not a government or even a corporate one in my opinion.

Sure, "oh businesses are private entities, blah blah blah." OK. But businesses are shutting down people who criticize or negatively review, or inflate the reviews of their products in order to appear more reputable, to boost sales, or reduce a negative and otherwise organic public perception of their products, if they suck, and that's wrong and shows a huge lack of self awareness and a lack of willingness to do better in the minds of the consumers.

In short, be self-aware. Do your due diligence, be honest with yourself, and know when it's in your own best interest to make a change, or to face the facts, even when they are difficult or inconvenient for you to hear and take forward into the future. People need to learn to take the negative, drop the ego, and use the critiques to better themselves. Half of what is "false" in the media is simply an alternative viewpoint that questions the morality and practices of the common narrative.

[OddBeMe]

Unfort people don’t do their homework and thus believe misinformation…which isn’t mistakes or inconvenient truths. They’re deliberate mistruths

[Opinion Owner]

Well who’s fault is that? People had ought to know by now that we live in a “post-truth” kind of world. I wish the media establishment would acknowledge that people are onto their BS, adjust, and seek to better unify our people, not divide.

[OddBeMe]

So the media is responding to ratings. Maybe we try getting people off cable news altogether.

[Diodoro]

There are facts espoused today that were considered misinformation a year ago. I think we should relax on the punishment on people in general around this issue

But should media outlets be held to a higher standard, and be required to correct misinformation on the same medium used to spread it? Absolutely

[OddBeMe]

No, there was mistaken information. That’s not misinformation. There’s intent behind it.

[Diodoro]

Saying that covid was created in a lab or strong evidence that it was just a year or so ago was labelled racist misinformation. Where was the intent? Better still, even if you are going to say there was intent, how are you going to prove that?

[OddBeMe]

saying its a lab leak is misinformation. It hasn't been proven yet.

[Diodoro]

You can argue it's not known, you can't argue it's inaccurate or not true which is the primary factor in defining something as misinformation. There's mounting evidence as time goes by that it was true.

It hasn't been proven without a shadow of a doubt, but there is evidence. Now if you can say with evidence to say it wasn't created in a lab then you can make a case for misinformation

mis·in·for·ma·tion
/ˌmisinfərˈmāSH (ə) n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive.

[Diodoro]

Belief and knowing are different things. Good to keep in mind

[OddBeMe]

It’s false to claim Covid is a lab leak. = misinformation.

[Diodoro]

No 😑

[OddBeMe]

How’s that not misinformation if it hasn’t been proven yet?

[Diodoro]

The definition of misinformation literally says "false or inaccurate". If you cannot prove it is false or inaccurate then you CANNOT say it's misinformation.

It's still being determined. If it's proven false then you can say continuing to spread it is misinformation. Till that day you're actually the one stating misinformation.

At best you can say is you believe it's not true, there's some evidence to suggest it's a lab leak but it's yet to be proven. That's the most you can say.

Belief vs knowing. To label something as misinformation you have to KNOW (It's provable) it's false or inaccurate. If you can't prove it you can't honestly say it.

[Aerissa_Jade]

This is tricky, I saw things before that got banned on social media during the last election but then after the election came out as valid. As people can play politics and hide the truth just long enough to get the election done, then it comes out later that it was right all along.

Of course you don't see that on main stream media, when they are screaming its false. Later they'll issue a tiny note somewhere when no one is paying attention.

I call it censorship, so your question is really, should censorship be allowed on the dominant ways to communicate?

People should do their own research, don't be a sheep and believe what others post.

[whirled_up_girl]

Who was it that said "we are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts" so many people have quoted that but I think it's important that everyone get their information on a topic from a variety of sources because anyone person or organization can lie or spread misinformation. When I had more time I used to read or watch both liberal media and right wing media, and the ones that claim to be neutral as well as foreign news programs to try and figure out which political facts were true, each had their own slant on them and I figured the truth was somewhere in the middle.

[goaded]

"I figured the truth was somewhere in the middle"
That's a fallacy, unfortunately.

For example: "There was massive fraud" vs. "There was no fraud" doesn't mean there was a lot of fraud, the truth is there was practically no fraud, like one in a million, which is a lot closer to one claim than the other. (And that assumes the left wing claim isn't the totally accurate "There was practically no fraud".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
upload.wikimedia.org/.../...Window_diagram.svg.png

[OddBeMe]

@goaded but that’s not for actual misinformation right? That’s like what politicians willing to do on gun control.

[goaded]

It was unthinkable that any politician would call into doubt the whole of the democratic process before 2016 (almost nobody noticed that Trump did that back then, too, in case he lost; once the election was over, he never mentioned it again until 2020). It was unthinkable that politicians would tell outright lies and call the people who called them out fake news, too.

[OddBeMe]

@goaded ahh

[OlderAndWiser]

Who decides what constitutes "misinformation?"

[OddBeMe]

scientific consensus? well established fact? maybe its like porn. we know it when we see it. most of us.

[OlderAndWiser]

And political bias never enters into that decision?

[OddBeMe]

sure, individual platforms prob. Do they have that right?

[OlderAndWiser]

That is a point for debate. I think reasonable persons could differ on their view of that issue.

[OddBeMe]

true. I guess I'll retry. An intent on misinforming.

[OlderAndWiser]

Judging someone's intent is extremely subjective and always biased when the content is socio-political.

[OddBeMe]

True. But disregarding facts and pushing false narratives that support your position…pretty easy to spot.

[Anonymous]

The spread of misinformation and disinformation about a public health crisis gets people dead. We have a woman at work who REFUSED to wear a mask or get vaccinated because she heard on 8chan or Facebook or some other message board that it was all a hoax and that she "knew the truth"... Luckily the CDC and OSHA implemented rules and our job told us we could A) show proof of vaccination B) wear a mask or C) find other employment... She chose B after insisting she never would (we get paid very well for out region)

The problem is, the only way out of this (and it's getting harder and harder) is through SCIENCE and when people refuse to listen to scientists because they're scientists, then all that are left are grifters, snake oil salesmen, and confidence men of every sort. And while the scientists don't know you to care about you specifically, they care about truth, while the grifter may even know you, but only cares about themselves.

[bamesjond0069]

"gets people dead" if you follow the science, healthy younger individuals are at extremely low risk so who is it thats dying again? You mean an obese 90 year old with diabetes?

[OddBeMe]

@bamesjond0069 so we should let them die, is what you’re saying? Man, and I get picked on for calling you fcks nazis.

[bamesjond0069]

So why let people drive cars? So we should just let people die?

[OddBeMe]

@bamesjond0069 why do we make them get licenses? Why do we mandate epileptics can’t drive?

[bamesjond0069]

But that doesn't stop people from dying?

[OddBeMe]

@bamesjond0069 you don’t think training people to drive saves lives?

[bamesjond0069]

Not as much as outlawing cars.

[OddBeMe]

@bamesjond0069 i think you're confusing your own analagy.

[fjb2021]

SCIENCE SCIENCE SCEINsere atrru mupl;iffif tdeerrr rd ddererrrrrrrrrr says Biden.

[Gwenhwyfar]

That’s a tough call. Who defines what misinformation is? At the very least there should be some sort of judicial review.

[OddBeMe]

I guess info that goes against scientific consensus for the purpose of spreading lies. There’s an intent element involved. Wouldn’t include mistakes.

[Gwenhwyfar]

But sometimes the consensus is wrong

[OddBeMe]

No, actually. It updates with new information. But scientific consensus is when experts align because they’ve tested with the exact same results.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I am troubled by the idea of giving control to a technocracy. What if I hold the sincere religious beliefs that science is bad and mysticism is good?

[fjb2021]

BULL SHIT.

[fjb2021]

Leo says the earth will be done in 9 years. Hops on his jet and yachts everywhere and anywhere, you fucking libtards are something else!!! Pelosi retiring where? Florida? Supposed to be swallowed up. Fuck thee and not for me. Fucking idiots.

[fjb2021]

Let's hop on that science train to what?

[jshm2]

Depends.

Information and misinformation is how a lot of journalists and shitstirring media busy bodies get paid. Always have. Normally this would be used against the East and Middle East. But these tools are more and more being employed back against the West, hence why it's now seen as a "problem".

Legally speaking no other profession spends more time in court for lies and libel than the media sector. Can't really see that changing. But what has changed in that the media is becoming increasing irrelevant as social media is putting most of them out of a job. Just like music streaming has cut down the size and power of the record industries.

[purplepoppy]

I can't bottle something and advertise it will cure covid, cancer, baldness or whatever without proof. Yet I'm allowed to make any claim I want on social media unchallenged. It's high time the people who start these claims are prosecuted.

[OddBeMe]

Well…yeah

[fjb2021]

And you talk to a libtard, everything is fine in your eyes. You libtards are now in a stance, look at everything around you, it's coming down.

[Jersey2]

A lot of the banning is based on opinion from YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. They are not objective. A media that had credibility is what kept the people from believing the wack jobs. Now the media is well known to be not trustworthy so it is a free for all out there. Twitter proper is just part of the untrustworthy sources. Didn’t Twitter ban one of the scientists who created the vaccine because he said something they didn’t agree with? Perhaps that fake news too but who cares anymore.

[OddBeMe]

I’ll agree with you there. Lots of subjective censors on those platforms.

[Gal67]

No, it shouldn't, any more than telling a lie over the phone should result in your disconnection and cancellation of your phone service by your provider. It isn't the job of, for example Facebook, to monitor the opinions of those who use their services because they are, as they themselves like to keep repeating ad nauseaum whenever it is convenient for them to do so, not media outlets.

[OddBeMe]

Normally I’d agree but even on this site I’m seeing the results of misinformation.

[OfDeath]

Yes. Media shouldn't be used to spread misinformation. I mean, it's a form of deception isn't it? There's also an agenda to it, or they wouldn't be doing it. Deliberate deception for the purposes of financial gains or other benefits to the deceiver. That's basically fraud isn't it? Not only should it result in bans, there should be legal penalties.

News is supposed to be the reporting of factual information and nothing else.

[Sargentcaptain]

Platforms should be platforms, radical view I know, but not arbiters of truth of gatekeepers to moral values. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech, not freedom for speech I like.

[Ray123456]

Yes, people who with a big reach who deliberately post misinformation should be punished.

[OddBeMe]

Funny how misinformation gives you a bigger reach.

[bamesjond0069]

Simply make it easier to sue people for this stuff. Then a court of law can drill down on a "fact" for a whole week with a jury and get to the bottom of it. Loser pays attorney fees.

What happened with the covington kid comes to mind of how it should work. They lied about him and they paid him a lot of money.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well at GaG you can post blatant lies.

But yeah on other platforms, vaccine misinformation gets you banned.

I say this sincerely. Thank the Lord.

[Sevenpointfive]

deliberately is almost the same as belligerently so i say a slap on the ass

[OddBeMe]

Is that slap a good thing or bad thing?

[Sevenpointfive]

bad in a good way

[sawno]

No, that would not be used to combat misinformation, it would be used to combat dissent.

[exitseven]

If the internet companies want to be treated like common carriers they cannot censor content. Otherwise they are news media.

[NYCQuestions1976]

You'd have to ban CNN entirely. They're having a rough time over there.

[OddBeMe]

I’d be ok with more regulation on misinformation from cable news.
Fox News would be nothing but static.

[NYCQuestions1976]

I've never watched cable news. The problem that CNN has is many others are starting to do the same thing. Their ratings are dropping like lemmings running off a cliff. That's what happens when you swing and miss at pitches in the dirt over and over again.

[OddBeMe]

And yet Fox News has the highest ratings 20 years running, and the most “pants on fire” ratings. Coincidence?

[NYCQuestions1976]

Well Jeffrey Tubin was going to light his pants on fire, but he couldn't find them...

[MrTaboo]

Because what was miss information just weeks ago (ie cloth masks do nt work) Dr Fauci says now they don't. Wow... look at that

[OddBeMe]

You the definition of misinformation right? Fauci wasn’t trying to deliberately mislead.

[MrTaboo]

More and more the truth is coming out and that "lord" fauci has lied but his misinformation is gospel. But others telling truth, or even just questioning the lies is misinformation?

[OddBeMe]

Everytime I check up on those claims it’s always him and cdc just being wrong about a new virus. Blame them for stupidity. But not for misinformation.

[MrTaboo]

I'd call straight out lies. The only thing that makes sense is it's all about the money. $30 billion Pfizer has made off of this. It's the only thing that's made sense

[OddBeMe]

Well you live in a capitalist society. But Fauci and the CDC’s missteps early in the pandemic is stupidity. Not misinformation.

[Massageman]

Who/what will determine what is "honest" information vs "mis"information?

[Anonymous]

You mean like when Fauci said masks are not necessary?

[OddBeMe]

Sure he was wrong. He wasn’t deliberately spreading misinformation.

[goaded]

Fauci wasn't even wrong at the time; the chances of you having covid to pass on (which is what masks hinder) was like a million to one at the time.

[Juxtapose]

Man the CDC can't even get their shit right and you expect Fox News to?

[OddBeMe]

It’s not about mistakes. It’s about the intent of misleading.

[Juxtapose]

Let's be real man, all cable news is, is propaganda.

CNN and MSNBC seemed pretty reasonable during the Bush era.

Now during the Biden era Fox News comes out as the more level-headed news network that is anti-establishment.

Do I think Fox News is inherently better? No. Fox News would want to stomp on the common man's neck as soon as they got enough power, just like CNN and MSNBC wants. I will never forget how bad the right wing of America was during the Bush era, even though they are darlings right now.

And before anybody says, no, I am not a right winger. I am 100% for abortion, I think religion is corny, I think being a prude is corny and so on.

[OddBeMe]

Let’s get real. What’s the rank for truthfulness of cable news:
MSNBC, CNN etc may be 50-60% “true”
Fox News: 20%

[NYCQuestions1976]

@OddBeMe CNN 50% "true"? Come on now. CNN was wrong on Covington, Kavanaugh, Cuomo, Cuomo, buried anything with Hunter, etcetera... and that's just off the top of my head.

[OddBeMe]

@NYCQuestions1976 you're focusing on individual shit, not the wide angle.

[OddBeMe]

This is from 2015…but I doubt it’s changed much.
www.politifact.com/.../

[Juxtapose]

I trust all cable news networks equally as much as this guy:

[OddBeMe]

And who’s to blame for that?

[NYCQuestions1976]

@OddBeMe If someone is looking at shit with an acute focus or wide angle, you're still looking at shit.

[Juxtapose]

That is just the nature of organizations. All organizations eventually fall to corruption, most notably the organizations that purport to be for the people.

There can never be a government or media organizations that are for the people, not for long. Rich, small groups of people always went out and that is likely how it will always be for the rest of humanity's miserable existence.

[Juxtapose]

*always win out

[OddBeMe]

But don’t say they’re all equal. I hate false equivalency. So many right wingers like trump get away with shit by claiming “we’re all like that”.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@Juxtapose The CDC is doing what I've described on here before: DMV syndrome. Issuing advice that's not necessarily deliberately wrong, but painfully vague. Over time, that can breed distrust, and even outright contempt.

[OddBeMe]

@NYCQuestions1976 the CDC isn’t why people are anti-vax. Trump is. And you know it.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@OddBeMe There's a difference between anti-vaccination and anti-mandates. I'm vaccinated, and pro-vaccinations, but strongly appose the mandates (except in the medical field, which is why I agreed with both Supreme Court decisions this week).

Regardless, plenty of people have been anti-vaccination long before Trump was President and long before Covid. Remember the "vaccines cause autism" people (Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy as two famous examples) and their fabulous "doctor", Andrew Wakefield? They weren't/aren't conservatives or even remotely right-leaning. Google them and their followers. They're still around.

[OddBeMe]

@NYCQuestions1976 it was never this mainstream and you know it.

And why is ok to mandate the medical field but not other workplaces?

[NYCQuestions1976]

@OddBeMe Never that mainstream? Are you serious? It was PLENTY mainstream... there just wasn't digital garbage like Twitter back then. Do you not remember the Measles comeback around 10 years ago in school-age children because their parents weren't vaccinating their kids at birth in the early 2000s because of this bullshit? Or how Jenny McCarthy was on The View promoting this crap 20 years ago? Google it all. It's not that hard to find.

Yes, because of two words: Underlying conditions. When you choose to work around people with underlying conditions, you're supposed to do everything in your power and medical ability to prevent people dealing with preexisting health problems from getting things like pneumonia, bronchitis, influenza, etcetera. Covid falls into that category.

[Juxtapose]

Yeah actually I have had plenty of people tell me that my autism was from vaccines lol..

I do believe the anti-mandate movement has more momentum though.

And I do believe the right and left are equivalent and ultimately work for the same people. This is just a good cop and bad cop routine where they occasionally switch sides.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@Juxtapose The anti-mandate movement now? Yes, because there wasn't a "mandate" movement back then. However the "anti-vaccination" movement was just the same. There just wasn't Facebook and Twitter to shovel Wakefield's shit back then. The giant spike in Measles was the result of that movement.

[OddBeMe]

@NYCQuestions1976 because there’s wasn’t a fckin pandemic “back then”.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@OddBeMe That's (probably) the fault of a certain building in Wuhan. It doesn't negate anything I mentioned.

[msc545]

Yes, it should, although perhaps not on GaG since we have a very vigorous group of people who tell the truth here.

[Still-alive]

Depends on the sites tos of course.

id argue yes though

[Anonymous]

You can't stop people from lying. That would be unconstitutional

[OddBeMe]

I wish people were smarter to tell the difference

[cloud9vortex1234]

Absolutely, because you knowly have Bad Intentions.

[Anonymous]

No, who decides what is misinformation? Especially, when what was considered misinformation 3 months ago is now considered the truth today.

[OddBeMe]

Like what?

[Opinion Owner]

Fauci funded gain of function research in the Wuhan lab.

[OddBeMe]

the US govt did, sure.

[Opinion Owner]

Misinformation is whatever the state doesn't want you to know.

[CuriousMufuxka]

Absolutely not. If anyone has something to say.. Then say it!

[Anonymous]

Half of the things you post on GAG would be eliminated.

[Dargil]

What misinformation was that?

[OddBeMe]

Since I don’t subscribe to misinformation I couldn’t possibly know…

[Dargil]

Then you can't know what it is. Just make an unsupported, ignorant question. Typical.

[OddBeMe]

I know what gay sex is without experiencing it. Your logic is flawed.

[Dargil]

What "logic" is that?

[Anonymous]

this will be used to silence info the government doesn't like

[joeldalton]

Are we going to ban Sotomayor?

[OddBeMe]

For?

[joeldalton]

She claimed there were over 100,000 children in the hospital with severe Covid and many were on ventilators. This is false information.

[OddBeMe]

Yeah she’s wrong. Like Fauci was with masks. But were they deliberately spreading misinformation?

[joeldalton]

Yes. Absolutely. You are going to excuse a Supreme Court justice not knowing the facts behind a case she is going to rule on?

[OddBeMe]

So what’s the difference between a mistake and deliberate misinformation?

[joeldalton]

You are excusing a Supreme Court justice for being ignorant of the facts of a case she is ruling on.

[OddBeMe]

No, I blame her for being ignorant. That’s not deliberate misinformation dingus.

[joeldalton]

Did she correct her mistake publicly and vote that the mandate is unconstitutional?

[OddBeMe]

1) those aren’t related.
2) how many repubs do you want to apologize for mistakes? Starting with Trump.

[goaded]

Trump? What about @joeldalton? Tell us, @joeldalton, what did the vaccine mandate require of employees of large companies?

[joeldalton]

@OddBeMe completely related. Let’s clarify one more time. A sitting Supreme Court justice. The highest court in the United States, listening to a case presented in front of the court is guilty of one of two things

1) lying about the number of kids in the hospital to push her political views
2) completely ignorant

And your response is WhAt aBOuT tRuMP?

Gtfoh

[joeldalton]

@goaded the mandate I told you was unconstitutional? That one?

[goaded]

The one you said was, before it was decided by SCOTUS, yes. What did it require of employees of larger companies?

[Avicenna]

@joeldalton, the leftists confirm once again that they want to ban speech that doesn’t agree with their narratives, not their own nonsense.

Sotomayor was surely aware not only that we she said was wildly inaccurate and That she was deliberately spreading misinformation. But the concept of protected speech is lost on leftists.

In an era where the White House dictates media coverage and social media bans, the proposal to ban „misinformation“ is unconstitutional and immoral.

[goaded]

@Avicenna Maybe you'd like to tell @joeldalton what was required of employees of larger companies in this mandate?

[goaded]

Neither of you? Don't you know what the mandate entailed for employees? Yes or No: would it have forced them to be vaccinated?

[joeldalton]

@goaded did Harvey Weinstein force those actresses to suck his dick?

Making someone’s life miserable if they don’t comply is coercion.

[goaded]

That's not an answer to the question I asked, now, is it? @Avicenna, do you want to try? I mean we're all against misinformation here, right? We wouldn't want people to get the wrong ideas about what we're talking about, would we?

What did the mandate require of employees of large companies? If you don't know that, then Yes or No: would it have forced them to be vaccinated?

[goaded]

@Avicenna @joeldalton Since you're both unable or unwilling to answer the simple question: No. The mandate did not require anyone to be vaccinated. They could choose to wear a mask and be tested just once a week instead. At no cost to the employee or employer.

[joeldalton]

@goaded right, and you didn’t have to suck Harvey Weinstein’s dick, you just could never get an acting job.

[goaded]

You do seem to be very hung up on Harvey Weinstein’s dick. I'm sure you'd have got a part. Of course, he didn't offer his victims the option of wearing an extra piece of clothing. And being obnoxious leaves you the option of not answering simple questions about what the mandate really involved.

[joeldalton]

@goaded And your autism has you fixated on this fucking mandate. But it’s a moot point, DOA. Fuck Joe Biden. And Sotomayor needs to be censured for spreading misinformation.

[goaded]

Like you haven't been spreading misinformation for the last 18 months.

As usual, you're trying to pretend something that wasn't 100% right was 100% wrong, which it wasn't. Kids are being hospitalised, despite your claims that they've got nothing to worry about.

The fact checks on what Sotomayor said all mention about 85,000 total hospital admissions for under-18s since 1. August 2020, but now, a week or so later, the number's gone up to nearly 92,000.

[joeldalton]

@goaded Even though I’m right, I’m not a Supreme Court justice. she is a liar. And so are you. Fraudci even admitted over half of the children in the hospital are admitted WITH covid, not BECAUSE of covid. Your fraudulent house of cards is starting to fall. It’s hilarious watching your death throes.

[goaded]

Great, so that's only 4,000 kids in the last week. And she got her numbers mixed up, that doesn't make someone a liar, it makes them mistaken.

[joeldalton]

@goaded she didn’t get jack shit mixed up. Then she needs to be removed for incompetence.

[OddBeMe]

wow so if any justice gets something wrong, they're out?
www.reuters.com/.../after-fumbled-oath-roberts-and-obama-leave-little-to-chance-idUSBRE90H16L20130118

[joeldalton]

@OddBeMe. Was that a statement made as fact as evidence in a case he was considering? Of course not. But you’re a liberal. I’m used to stupid points being made.

[OddBeMe]

I love when new rules are added.

Joel just take your toys and go home.

[joeldalton]

You bring up completely irrelevant bullshit and think you're dunking on someone. That's what makes you hilarious.

[OddBeMe]

How’s it irrelevant? You said a Scotus Justice makes a mistake…boom that’s it.

[joeldalton]

you dipshit There's making a mistake and being ignorant of the facts of a case she's supposedly qualified to rule on. She's an embarrassment to the court. This is what happens when you fill job openings with racial and gender quotas.

[OddBeMe]

I’d say an embarrassment is fcking up inauguration. He shoulda been ousted for that, right?

[joeldalton]

Lol, no. You dipshit. Sotomayor is an embarrassment every day. Again, she spread covid misinformation on purpose. She should be cancelled and disbarred.

[WowwGirl]

Misinformation effect is a beautiful thing

[jackiechanfan]

no i don't think so