What are your thoughts on NATO?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

I'm actually starting to think it's not necessary and that Europe should consider having a different security architecture that omits the U. S.

Now before anyone accuses me of defending Putin, I think we're right to give Ukraine the means to fight back his armies that he's been callously tossing at them as cannon fodder. But with all this militarism in Europe talking about the need to defend against Russian aggression, I think too many are ignoring the elephant in the closet:

For years if someone imagined a WW3 scenario it would start like this:
-Russia steamrolls Poland
-Germany puts up a fight but is overrun
-Then in the battle of Paris, US troops arrive and help European forces stem the Russian onslaught.

But now we've seen the Russian military in action and that the cogs of its' war machine have been thoroughly gonked up by corruption and poor leadership. Now you may think that these issues could be quickly fixed but the deficiencies in Soviet/Russian (vs. NATO) doctrine were illustrated back in the 1991 Gulf War so I doubt resolving these issues would be a "quick fix". And given the performance of the Russian military in Ukraine, I would say that Poland with its' more modernized and organized military than that of Ukraine could mop the floor with them.

So I doubt that the US has to be part of a security architecture to keep it safe. In fact I think had the US not have had such a strong presence in Easter Europe, this war would not have happened. And before you ask, I do believe that Putin wanted to invade Ukraine regardless of what NATO was doing because the fighting is still ongoing even though Zelensky said he wouldn't pursue NATO membership 2+ months ago. However, I don't think he could have gotten enough popular support for the war had it not been for NATO expansion. So it's like asking would the 2003 invasion of Iraq have happened without 9/11.

[Redhead999]

Well I think Ukraine is a reality check for Russia. They aren't the major regional power they imagined, they just aren't. Finland and Sweden do not fear them anymore.
The Americans wanted European nato countries to spend more on their defence, stop buying Russian oil and gas, buy their gas and oil from us companies and buy us weapons. This is exactly what is happening.
Whether it's Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan you got to look at who benefits or will benefit to understand why these wars happen.
How is the war in Ukraine benefiting the US and how will a Russian defeat in Ukraine benefit the overall strategic foreign policy of the United States?

[OldWorldOrder]

Hitler didn't fear the Soviets after the Spanish Civil War and the Talvisota.

Five years later, he was trapped in a bunker taking cyanide pills while a Soviet banner flew over his Reichstag. :)

The West will bow to the Czar, or be broken. 🇷🇺☦

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@OldWorldOrder Yeah, because the German Army's advances kept stalling thanks to Britain preventing Germany from importing oil. Also, we now know that were it not for logistics support from the US, the Red Army couldn't advance more than 65km before they ran out of food and had to walk back.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Although given the current rhetoric in pro-Putin circles, it would probably be more appropriate to call the Eastern Front the "US-German proxy war".

I mean maybe if we didn't supply the USSR with lend-lease and say "go Russians, go, you can beat the Fascist beast", they would have negotiated a peaceful agreement with Nazi Germany.

[Redhead999]

All true. I just don't think the Soviets would have negotiated peace with the nazis, they would have been wiped out.

[ChrisMaster69]

Without NATO, exactly how long would have Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia lasted?

What would have happened with Kosovo, Bosnia,

what would have happened with East Germany.

would Poland be as it is now.

How Would the passage of ships through Red Sea , gulf of Aden be?

Also one the great abilities of NATO is to being together different thinking, different approaches to battle space management.

Also the US has had its arse kicked by various NATO members over the years on exercises. A lot of countries are well aware of various US weaknesses. Which is why NATO is a sum of all of its members, everyone contributes and makes a difference.

With both Russia and China, they do not and cannot trust the basic soldier, this is why they fail and in the future always will. It’s the main reason the Russians are losing so many senior officers.

Also they have proved on a global scale they no longer have any moral high ground.

[NathanDavis]

if you think NATO and the USA in it... is pointless and useless

then you really do not understand the importance of it, that is all

the only difference between the capabilities of Russia and China... and the capabilities of NATO and the USA, is the security network that they have

it is as simple as that... NATO has a safety network, Russia does not, China does not...

the moment you break up NATO... you make that safety network a lot less reliable, and you would only give Russia and China even more grounds and chance to represent a bigger threat to any other region in this world

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Russia will never pass farder then Poland and Romania if they attak NATO. From our bounded history whit Russia we will never forget what our grand parents told us they see and face from the russians and how many of our people are no more because of theyr agresions and olso by theyr sik ideologis.

If Russia will ever dare to attak NATO and make theyr own way to Berlin, Bruxel, Paris, Strasburg, London... WE (Eastern Europeans) will fight to the very last person, mans, womans and even childrens to defent our ideas, hope and moust important FREEDOME TO DO WHAT EVER WE WANT TO DO WHIT OUR COUNTRYS.

Ther is no majority suport for Russia in any country of EUROP (NOT EU). Russia will only take our ash and lifes. But Russia will never EVER be able to tamte Europ, especialy EAST EUROP.

[Lord_Saddler]

I think it's a crime syndicate that was created under the false pretext to guarantee the European security when its real objective is about making the elites in Washington and London richer and richer.

I have no doubt that the Russians had no intent to invade Ukraine, but were pitched into doing so because of the escalating level of provocations the West incited the Ukrainian leadership to do because the US Dept of State thought that Ukraine would be the 2nd Afghanistan for Russia.

It won't work and the Western "rules-based" (more like rules-imposed order) is going to an end.

That's sad, but maybe in 1000 years you can try playing Western global liberal hegemony again when the Chinese global hegemony comes to an end.

[jshm2]

Actually the Russian warmachine has been shown to be far superior to the USA's. The latter of which failed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and elsewhere it's put boots on the ground.

The Russians have not faced just Ukraine. But an army tooled by the best the West had to offer. Hence the reason you can't really judge the Russian onslaught but can the Western incompetence.

Also, Ukraine is going to spend the next couple of centuries repaying for those weapons it bought...

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The US was able to occupy all of Iraq and Afghanistan and withdrew due to political pressure at home. The Russians just flat out failed to overrun Ukraine.

[Agagagagaga]

Hilarious. The Russians are still fighting conventional Ukrainian forces while the US would have already killed so many that they would to resort to roadside bombs. The US and Russia wage war very differently, if anything we’re seeing the flaws in their doctrine and shortcomings of their military. Why haven’t they established air superiority yet? The US gets that done in the first few days to a week. America never has drone strikes taking out our tanks, artillery, or most importantly, our generals. How many of their top officers have been killed so far? 10? It’s fucking pathetic 😂

[tartaarsaus]

Considering the USA is by far the single most powerful military force in the world, the threat of it going all-in into a European war is already enough to deter a war. As such, the USA is of immense benefit in Europe’s deterrence.


Also, Eastern European nations like Poland and in the Baltics trust the American resolve to come to their aid in an invasion is far greater than their trust in Germany/France/UK/Spain/Italy.

[tartaarsaus]

Also, nobody with even remotely a clue of how armies work would think that an invasion by Russia of Europe would mean Germany is overrun.

[OldWorldOrder]

Lol. Another wannabe analyst.

You'd think people would learn after losing so many wars, making so many bad predictions and being proven wrong so many times. Whatever.

[Lord_Saddler]

His post shows all the beauty of the USian people by the way. Real sweethearts! They stood firm in fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian, but, well, we all know that the Ukrainians have had it...

Now it's time to fight Russia to the last Pollack. 😆

"Go Poles, you will beat the orcs, trust me!"

[OldWorldOrder]

@Lord_Saddler "The Russians are demoralized and are skulking in their tents after capturing Zaporozhiya and Severodonetsk. They will all surely be ready to surrender by the time they reach Kiev." 😂

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The Russians ran away from Kiev with their tails between their legs almost 2 months ago after so many failed predictions which said it would fall in days LMAO.

The Ukrainians stood firm in fighting Russia after Russia invaded their country and instead of fighting a Guerilla war until the the invaders say it's not worth it like in Iraq and Afghanistan, they halted the advance on the capital dead in it's tracks and sent them running back to Belarus, turned what everyone thought was going to be a quagmire into a meat grinder. Now, in a vain attempt to cover their ass, the Russians are saying the US is the one fighting to the last Ukrainian when it's the Ukrainians who are defending their country.

[OldWorldOrder]

The Ukraine is not a "country." It is a province of Russia.

The ukrops outnumber the Russians 3 to 1... and are losing.

They are losing Liman. They are losing Lisichansk. They are losing Severodonetsk. They are losing Zaporozhiya.

The northern counter-offensive failed epically and they are being driven back to Kharkiv. Lugansk Oblast is almost fully liberated. Kherson will be next, then Zaporozhiya. By August, Odessa will be in Russian hands.

Russia has only deployed 10% of their entire military to the Ukraine... and they are winning. :)

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The Russians can only deploy a fraction of their armed forces in Ukraine (or for any operation) at a given time because of the abysmal performance of their logistics and are now only making grounds in Donbass after they were driven away from Kharkiv which has a population greater than all those cities combined. Also in Donbass, Russia outnumbers Ukraine 2:1 and go ahead, try to take Odessa and it will go from meat grinder to bloodbath.



But congrats showing how powerful the Russian army is against NATO when making incremental gains in Ukraine :)

[OldWorldOrder]

Ah yes. The difficult logistics of... driving across a border that you control. Lol

If Russia wanted to deploy more men, from Voronezh or Rostov or the Kavkaz units, they would just do it. The Kadyrovtsiy volunteers drove themselves into Donbass by the thousands in a couple of days lol.

The ukrop cope is hilarious. Tell the Ghost of Kiev I said hi, will ya? 😄🇷🇺

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Yeah you can drive across the border but a short ways in, your 65 km long convoy will stall and get stuck for a whole week, giving the Ukrainians plenty of time to reinforce the city and send you running back to Belarus. Still reeling from the radiation sickness you got from digging in at Chernobyl I see.

[OddBeMe]

It's either nato. Or every country jumping into an arms race. Didn't work out last century.

[joeldalton]

sounds good. Too bad the mooch governments don’t like the idea of paying for their own defense.

[exitseven]

NATO spelled backwards is OTAN

[josephinelcajon]

NATO AKA NWO