Do you think misandry or misogyny is worse today?

[razelove]

Misogyny -dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Misandry -dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men.

It's an opinion, if I wanted to make it fact based I'd do a mytake with statistics and stuff. Let's base it on the here and now though.

Misogyny

Misandry

Updates

+1 y

When you comment, if it's one way or the other, could you be specific which one, both or neither you believe exist, to what extent and why please?

[KingslayerC]

in the Western world, misandry is worse, in the Eastern world, misogyny is worse. LATAM kind of has a mix of both, so it's hard to lump them into one box, and they don't really fit into the Western/Eastern dichotomy very well anyway.

Basically the Western world has been controlled by modern feminist ideology which only advocates for females and trans women, even if males are at a disadvantage. We have discriminatory laws and practices within our institutions, from academia, to gov grants/jobs, to criminal justice, to loans. And more. Men don't have any extra rights, besides nipple exposure in slightly more situations, while women have the aforementioned extra rights and the protection from the draft. Plus, anti-male speech is perfectly acceptable but anti-female speech is scrutinized 100x more. Even things like sexual harassment are completely unevenly enforced between males and females. Even criminal laws can exclude females from liability.

But on the other hand, the Eastern world MOSTLY treats women worse, both socially and legally. Many countries allow for women to be beaten and cast out like trash. Some places still don't let women vote. And I understand that some of those countries also do horrible things to men, like forced military service, criminal liability for their wives' behavior (possibly an outdated reference) or other things, the balance is definitely in favor of men. So, misogyny is worse, in general, in Eastern societies.

[razelove]

I don't disagree with that. Globally women are in a shittier position, especially if you compare say the population of india and china combined to basically everywhere else. It's why guys shop for wives there, they're more submissive. I mean, you can just google mail order bride from china or india, and you're set. Most come from the phillipines though.

I don't think forced military service would be such a terrible thing, for men or women. I had a lot of prejudices before I went into the military. Once you're training together to kill, and depend on each other to live those vanish like smoke.

I don't know how that would go with integrated females. When I was in we mostly trained together and slept with each other (lots of stds). You expect them to do their job inside the shop, but for combat, they mostly drilled in us to try to ignore them as one guy getting injured would pull one other guy to help, but one woman getting injured would pull ten guys out of combat.

Anyway, only men are in selective service in the US right now.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Actually what you don't realize even in the east is that even men can be discriminate the just as much in the workplace. The only difference is that men just tend to persevere and just suck it all up in order for them to just feed the family since the traditional gender roles tend to apply in those areas unlike girls when they face some discrimination they are more likely to just make a big deal out of it and be open about it and have it addressed. Because they really just don't have to be pressured just like men which is why even in the east, men are still more likely to commit suicide and to actually be at the bottom more than women. What the world just see are those rich and powerful men but they ignore what struggles they have to go through to be on that position and one wrong move could get them to be pulled to the bottom just like millions of other ''loser'' men who took that gamble.

[razelove]

@Aiko_E_Lara I don't doubt that at all. It isn't like men don't get neglected in a "patriarchy" they just don't have to worry as much about their woman cheating or running off on them nearly as much as here in the West.

When I met my wife I was about to just give up and settle into NSA and ONS for life using fake names. Then I met this 2nd gen immigrant with conservative values I'd been looking for and completely dropped the hook-up culture I'd been in.

That didn't reduce my risk of failure, or her being indoctrinated, but it gave me hope. I'd say I'm pretty average. If I work really hard and sacrifice a lot I can make six figures, if not it's like 40-60k depending. In the West the big difference coming down now is social caste, like in the East. The middle class is getting squeezed hard.

Like I'm having to seriously consider if I want a masters at my age, because the alternative is swing shifts at chemical plants where my health, and family life are at jeopardy. Contract work isn't even worth it because even if you make 200k, you'll get taxed 50k.

I don't get why both men and women don't look at that squeeze. Where does it make sense that you wind up with the same cash at the end of the year if you're making 44k (single) or 90k (joint)?
www.irs.gov/.../irs-provides-tax-inflation-adjustments-for-tax-year-2023

[Lookingforthetruth]

STATS on mal sexual harassment:

-About 1 in 3 men experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner during their lifetime.

-Nearly 56% of men who were victims of contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner first experienced these or other forms of violence by that partner before age 25.

-Nearly 1 in 4 men in the U. S. experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime.

-About 1 in 14 men in the U. S. were made to penetrate someone during their lifetime.

-More than 1 in 38 men in the U. S. experienced completed or attempted rape victimization in their lifetime.

-Among male victims of completed or attempted rape, about 71% first experienced such victimization prior to age 25.

-About 1 in 17 men in the U. S. were victims of stalking at some point in their lifetime.

-Nearly 41% of male victims first experienced stalking before age 25.

[Exterminatore]

Misandry. There is an obvious effort to indoctrinate the general public into believing men are bad and rapists and women are always good and virtuous and fart rainbows.


Look at feminists saying men need to be taught not to rape. 99% of us learned this lesson already without having to be taught. As if no female child rapists exist.


Look at Gillette and their toxic masculinity commercial. Toxic Masculinity was portrayed as bullying in that commercial. What? Men have the market cornered on bullying? There are no female bullies?


Women even get affirmative action. For what? Workforce age women were never disadvantaged in their lives as of the current time and men alive today of workforce age did not disadvantage women, but yet they sure do pay the price for it.


How many more sit coms and commercials like Everybody Loves Raymond must we endure portraying men as boobs and ignorant parents, and inept husbands while painting women as wise and discerning and intelligent?

[razelove]

Indeed, misogyny as a system and construct existed in the past, but now misandry certainly does, and any efforts to point that out can get you silenced. There's no representation for straight males, white, black, or indigenous on any EDI committee.

Hell, count on a long haul of applying for jobs if you put your gender on applications. I think you put the reality there very well. It's so easy to concentrate on dating, as that's low hanging fruit, but that accounts for very little of the scope of our lives.

[Exterminatore]

Fully agree.

[anon1903]

On the internet? I'd say it's mostly misogyny.

In real life? I should say it's both of them. They're equals.

[razelove]

Unfortunately I'd say you're right. If I re-opened my company tomorrow I wouldn't hire women. Maternity leave, sexual harassment, the physical demands, flaking out. Same with if I'm applying for a large company I never list my gender or race, because I have less chance getting hired in a large company as a white man. More so as a non-descript disabled veteran though.

There are many other aspects where it "balances" out. Women are more often victims of violent crime. Men have less access to higher education. So on and so forth. We should be equals and working on these issues together, rather than dividing and walking on eggshells.

I'm curious now, what would you say is the biggest problem facing you as a woman?

[anon1903]

The society treats us less than

[razelove]

Less than what and in what ways if you don't mind my asking

[anon1903]

Less than in many ways. For instance, people here are still unhappy because a daughter is born because they're gonna have to marry her off. And that's the norm, unless you have a liberal parent and you're educated yourself, that's your duty as a woman to create a family.

[Apple1996]

Misogyny is still worse since it has been passed down from previous generations

[DarkLegacy]

That does not make it worse, you just implying that misandry is somehow justified because of what people did before today's generation was even born.

[Apple1996]

@DarkLegacy I don't think it's justified. Just not as deeply rooted

[razelove]

I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. The concept of misogyny is very deeply rooted, much like racism. It wasn't until 1980 that women were equal in college enrollment, then 1995 that the number surpassed men. No one's crying over men not having the scholarships or grants.

I will argue against the previous generations stance though. All of those previous generations were made of a man and woman having kids. Even if you account for single moms, conservatively 70% of women initiate divorce, and over 50% of women going to sperm banks are single.

I'm not against single moms, but I do think marriage is cheapened a lot by how easy it is to get divorced. My first marriage was mostly just to get more money while I was in the Marines for example...

Anyway, if you have a nuclear family, unless things are totally jacked up from one or both parents, how is that generational misogyny?

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Misandry has also been passed down from previous generations and most people don't realize it. Or they may but not care about it.

[razelove]

@Aiko_E_Lara Yeah, you have a 70% from marriage, and 50% from single, 33% of kids are living in single parent households since 2020, the vast majority being single moms. If I got divorced today and could prove a heroin addiction in my wife, it would still be an uphill battle to get custody.

I'm sure that after a bitter divorce she'd only have good things to say about me for 2 weeks before my weekend comes up, or sharing them in a fire department schedule. What does the child support pay for in that case? Legally someone still has to pay it. The only debtors prison in the US is for child support.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

https://youtu.be/zO9nUBazWEg speaking of marriage, I just want to post this right here.

[razelove]

@Aiko_E_Lara That sounds about right. My first marriage was abusive. It's also when I learned that abuse is a two way street. Even if you're passive you're allowing it to happen. I got out of it by quitting my very nice job, buying a stick figure drawing from my friend for like 60k, taking out some loans, then we got divorced and split the debt 50/50.

My friend gave me the 50k (give a cut to a brother) back to repay my share on the loans... then I was sitting on a nice little bucket to lick my wounds. I think most guys in a shitty situation don't realize that it isn't magically going to get better, but rather they're digging themselves in deeper for cheating, debt, and codependence.

There are a lot of good women and men out there. Likewise there are a lot of terrible women and men out there. It's very unlikely that both a man and woman will roll a 20 for their first relationship (see the swingers clubs before birth control).

I think the biggest issue is that both men and women are hoping to hit that 20 with each other when the chances are less than 1/400. Women aren't willing to settle by and large, and men know that, so huge chunks of them are dropping out of the dating scene. Luckily on my end I found my waifu before getting to 400 or 800(probability, not a guarantee) just before I was ready to burn out and check out.

For dating I get why a lot of men opt out, and why a lot of women get ran through until they hit the wall.

[Apple1996]

@Aiko_E_Lara not even gonna comment on the marriage thing lol

[Apple1996]

Adding to my orginal comment that misandry comes from the hurt, fear and pain from men. Misogyny comes from hate, control and evil that men hold. There's a pretty big difference in those reasons to dislike the opposite gender

[Apple1996]

Women are like I don't want to get beat and murdered. Men are like I don't want a women not listening to me and taking all my money 🙃

[Billlewis]

Thank you very much for liking my comment, Goddess.

[Apple1996]

@Billlewis yess ofc 😊

[Aiko_E_Lara]

@Apple1996 you don't even have to because you have no take on it. And I'm not going to limiting men's issue in marriage

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Also, that is another way to show double standards. You're blaming men for the cause of misandry and you think men losing money is the only thing that affect men. What if I told you that domestic violence towards men is way more common than you think but the only thing is that it's always had been a taboo to actually attack women even in self-defense. https://youtu.be/m4hrHUo70nY

[Aiko_E_Lara]

It's also easy for me to say misogyny is caused by misandry and he'll need to be supposed to endanger men and use men to hunt for women.

[DarkLegacy]

@Apple1996 There is no excuse for sexism towards men, women are always trying to hide behind being scared to justify their discriminatory behaviour and it is not just to do with sexism towards men either. Trust women to blame men for them doing something wrong.

[RavVid]

I think it is both in reality. As an example a wife put up a husband shaming tik tok. She had asked him to bring home some celery. After a dramatic pause she holds up what he brought home. A stick of celery. Turns out she thought it was boc choy. So the wife shaming husband video turned out to be a wife shaming herself video.

Female empowerment is most empowered towards misandry directed at the woman's alleged nearest and dearest. I imagine the husband enjoyed the celery video most of all and gave it as many likes as he could.

But with that trite, snide, supercilious, insulting attitude one has to ask how long will he continue to value her vagina? There is probably not much else left that he does value. Maybe her vagina positivism is just holding out against the negativity of the rest of this woman.

Even young guys, who should only be thinking of vaginas, are starting to say girls aren't worth it and older men are pleased at their youthful wisdom.

[razelove]

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Regardless of which it is, they're both self-sabotaging behaviors. Men and women complement each other extremely well when we respect each other and try to work together (even to a minimal degree). When neither is present, we're both just bitter and resentful towards each other.

[RavVid]

Entirely true.

[Peter_Penetrator]

One breeds the other.


When you think you have met the right person; then you try to tweak them even more to your liking; are they really the “right” person?


The right person needs no tweaking.


Don’t try to make them into someone better for you. You will be very disappointed. No one is perfect. You can’t make them that way.


If a person has just gotten out of a bad relationship, and enter into a new one, it is because that new person is on their best behavior.


So if that new person starts sneaking in changes of the other; alarm bells start going off and then the shit hits the fan.


Man begins hating the woman; the woman begins hating the man.


One because the other is trying to change the other and then the one hoping for change gets angry because the other won’t change. Too many others.


People just need to slow down. Don’t jump into any relationship out of the fear of being alone. Don’t get in a hurry to kick off the relationship. Don’t rush marriage. Don’t get butt hurt over petty shit.


You can bet that if a woman was able to escape a physically and emotionally abusive man, once she does meet a new man, and that man has his flaws, like we all, she will just be grateful that he isn’t beating the crap out of her every night.


The same with a man. What ever happened in his past relationships; her cheating, slowly became an alcoholic, couldn’t shake the opioids, if his new woman happens to fart in her sleep, he can overlook it and still appreciate her the next morning.


Men and women need to look at the other persons flaws in context, and not get bent out of shape over petty shit.

[razelove]

That sounds like you have a lot to unpack there. My solution to that when dating was to never show my best side on first dates. Sure, it lost me a lot of people, but dating is a number's game to begin with unfortunately.

If someone can't accept you, and you can't accept them, just don't do it. There are tons of other people, especially if you live in a suburb and date in a city lol

[Anonymous]

It should be perfectly obvious to everyone that since the whatever wave of feminazism realised that whining and complaining loudly was enough to mind rape the spineless faggots who work in government and public relations etc that men are completely sidelined and objectively at a disadvantage currently.

That doesn't mean that misogyny has gone away but the debate is long over, western society agreed along time ago now that equality was the goal and the average person in the street is honestly trying to achieve this but its completely derailed by those in power.

Our political systems have completely failed at this point because so few in the field have the courage to take up a position about anything at all and they sure as shit aren't going to tell some angry entitled bitch to go fuck herself.

[razelove]

Well yeah, an easy example to see is Andrew Tate, no matter if you agree with his message or not, when he got canceled, that was so thorough, swift, and terrifying. It was a blatant show that if you argue with the machine too much, on this issue today, another tomorrow, we don't even have to black bag you to make you disappear.

[SolitarySolace]

Misandry. It’s demonized to be masculine unless you’re a woman. Mansplaining and manspreading are apparently things now. The only issue women are facing is trans women in women’s sports and the TQ+ community itself. Which ironically majority of women support

[Inbox]

Yeah, if you watch tv shows and movies now, every lead woman is now basically a man.

[KlinkyCoder]

And it is almost impossible to escape or ignore because it is everywhere now.

[razelove]

Yeah, "toxic masculinity" has been a thing for years now. Odd how there's no "toxic femineity" when only one gender get's toxic shock, but both do have toxic people.

[VadeinVain]

It's because generally men aren't calling every walking being "toxic", but there's a loud amount of women on the internet who do.

[DaveJord]

No doubt that in society today, we do not celebrate the virtues assigned to masculinity anymore. Woman rights, and liberation, gay pride, almost anything men are upheld as positive role models in society today. Not in the United States. Men are sexist (woman are assumed not to be), men are homophones (woman are not assumed to be), Men are abusive (woman are assumed not to be), men take advantage of women ( woman are assumed to be the vicitims in almost every situation)... I

[razelove]

Yeah, when I was reading up for this one I came across this little gem.

www.domesticshelters.org/.../is-mutual-abuse-real

Basically mutual abuse isn't real, because even if you initiate violence against your abuser until they abuse you, you're not physically stronger, though they wind up in jail whenever you say go. They specifically use the framework of self defense, which is ridiculous, because if a woman attacks me, then defending myself would be using abuse, so the solution is to go straight to deadly force.

Last I checked there is only one narrative if there is only one person... So if a woman attacks you one time, her ass has to go to the curb, call the police, make videos, and if she comes back, kill her, or risk imprisonment.

Like this shit is getting so far off the rails. Metoo was probably the last nail in the coffin there.

Anyway, that article is helpful for documenting and making the police do their jobs based on that framework going the other way around.

[stepyo99]

Misogyny doesn't exist today, but because women continue to perform poorly at basic life tasks like putting the toilet seat down before they use it so that they don't fall in, there has been a constant moving of the goal posts every time a new "barrier" has been broken down for women.

[razelove]

Indeed, how dare we pee standing up

[JCT666]

I would say misogyny is still worse today, seeing as there some places in the third world where women got stoned to death for daring to have a voice against their tyrants.

While misandry is also bad, it's just bitter white women in the West with huge victim mentalities due to their severe daddy issues. I just shrug them off and laugh.

[ericclayton]

Exactly.

[KingslayerC]

Lol my Americanness is showing. I hadn't even considered anything out of the US when I voted, but in my defense, OP didn't specify... Glad I read this before I commented.

[razelove]

I would agree with that globally. Women do have far less rights say under sharia law, and in countries going through war, famine, or even more simply the absence of industrialization. The UN is even scaling back on that mission of producing results for women and focusing more on a green footprint.
I wouldn't just shrug those women off and laugh though. Some of them have power, status and influence in the real world. I know one woman who almost got fired while in an EDI committee for pointing out that they were being racist while bashing on whites when they were talking about possible policies to do the same.
How do you think that would have played out if she would have been a he? Or even on the committee in the first place.

[Meropatrick]

I lived in most countries in the middle east never once I have seen or heard about a woman getting stoned to death. Its true women sometimes are treated badly but its not the norm and the laws prohibited it. Yesterday a man was executed in Egypt because he killed a girl he was stalking. He killed her last year and was executed few months later. That doesn't even happen in the US that murder victims family gets justice that 1uick

[razelove]

@Meropatrick Usually never, drug companies have a concerted effort to not allow prisons to have enough drugs an execution requires, like never sell them enough that they could even stockpile it before the previous amount expires.

I say to bring hanging back, epstein managed to do so without even having a sheet, so obviously no one can stop the supply of rope. Ba dum pssh.

[Anonymous]

Misandry is definitely worse in this time period I would argue that 10 years ago it would be misogyny. I don't know how women can't see the amount of misandry that goes on seriously it's crazy. Just a couple of examples would be male suicide rates being way higher than female. females winning majority of child custody cases even if they are the worse parent in the situation. Divorce settlements favor women. And let's not forget the amount of hate that is spread on social media towards men such as "all men are evil" or the famous "kill all men" that went around. A lot of women think 90% of men are rapists and abusers but this just isn't true. There are many more examples. The women that say misogyny is worse always say the same things one being the pay gap between men and women and the pay gap is just not a real thing in 2023

[razelove]

The pay gap was only a real thing even in the 1990s because of the degrees that women typically choose. Women outnumbered men in colleges back in 1995. It's why if you're a man, and you can do it now, you can find a wife, if not swim in poon just by going to college and putting in zero effort due to how insanely imbalanced the ratio is.

Even though you don't want to be with most of the women who are there, again, with quantity comes a qualitative change in your selection too. There are women only scholarships and schools. If you tried to make a men's only scholarship or school, you'd be crucified and brought to court for it.

[Anpu23]

Misandry is institutionalized. You see it in our laws, our structures and the propaganda put out by our government. For examples see the mytake I wrote on it. Why I'm Afraid of Feminism (and You Should Be Too)

I'm not saying that there isn't a social misogyny, of course there is, but misandry is institutionalized.

[razelove]

Very well written. Though I would have used the example of ANTIFA turning into the thing they claim to defend against rather than radical Muslims. Even if you disagree with an idea or action there is sovereignty. I wouldn't go to Russia and expect to find a Catholic church, but rather Eastern Orthodox as a minor example.

We have been fighting what can only be summed up as a holy war against the middle east for a long time now. We aren't getting their oil, nor have men or women found a better life there, but my gosh have we put a lot of money into making schools for women, boeing, lockheed martin, halliburton, northrupp grumman, and textron.

Yeah, men are guilty once accused, I'd say that extends more so from crimes other than domestic abuse or grape though. If a man is accused of DWI, he's gone, even if he gets a not guilty later, and that follows to other jobs. Women get the benefit of the doubt to explain it.

[razelove]

Their own actions will hinder them though
https://hbr.org/2019/09/the-metoo-backlash?

[Anpu23]

Thank you for the insight.

[DarkWinterNights]

I think there was a point in the not too distant past where both were becoming rather rare. I think this new wave of misandry kind of came out of nowhere and if you had asked me 5 years ago I would say just that. But the last few years I’ve seen a pretty significant surge in misogyny now, especially from just regular guys. At this point I don’t know which is “worse” or more prevalent. I just know there is going to be a pretty significant population decline as a result.

[razelove]

I think there are going to be a lot of single moms sharing the same "fathers". I'm out of the dating market and I still get pull, which says a lot. My looks aren't outstanding or anything, I just have good hygiene and work out a little.

Still I get approached by single or married women, I'd say maybe two to three times a year who express some serious interest I have no plans to reciprocate on. That could fuck up my family. I do see a lot more single moms and parents putting kids on their parents in my area though.

My kids play with their kids, and then the attraction starts from their parent because I actually enforce rules. It's so fucked up. Like why would I cheat on my wife because you think it's hot that I make your kid shut the door behind them and eat an actual dinner.

Anyway, I don't think it'll affect the birth rate simply because for decades that has been sustained by immigrant women getting with indigenous men. You can look at the last census for that. White women have 1.2 kids, foreign biracial is like 3. My children are biracial, anyway, I think the big shift is going to be away from white women in the US for men in the US who can make that move.

The others will probably join the incels or MGTOW. For women, they'll be single moms or hit the wall.

[FireTower]

You shouldn't compare them like that saying one is worse than the other only serves to invalid the victims of the 'lesser evil'. Two things can be awful at once.

[razelove]

I never said one is worse than the other. I've repeatedly said one leads to the other and that both are equally damaging to both genders. Misogyny hurts men in life and relationships. Misandry hurts women in relationships, though it is widely accepted, so it won't hurt them until they hit the wall. Then it hurts that much more.

[blueonblack22]

The problem I constantly see is too many people believe that two wrongs make a right.

[razelove]

Indeed, pushing down women doesn't help men. Nor does pushing down men help women. It just divides us more and makes that scale swing heavier each time.

[blueonblack22]

Well in modern culture one gender has a lot more overall power nowadays in my bias opinion. And power isn’t always measured by dollar bills.

Its not a zero sum game. Harming one gender for your own benefit is a game of self destruction. Men and women are meant to be bound my Mother Nature. If you damage one side you ultimately harm yourself.

But I believe modern feminists are in continual denial about that. Misery and anger only begets more misery and anger if you refuse to look in the mirror to see the real problem.

[Izzy_3991]

Indeed it is. I’ve never know such contempt for the opposite sex.

[razelove]

Do you mean one way, both ways? I should have framed this in some way that's easier to clarify, hmm

[Izzy_3991]

I think there’s a lot of contempt on both parties. Women hating men and men hating women. No one is a winner if we keep hating each other.
I believe the internet has spread misogyny and misogyny behaviour. So it’s worse today than it ever was

[turnpost]

ummm no Women were beaten and society encouraged it back in the day. Now a days guys know better and also if one does beat a girl its heavily heavily frowned upon. If anything it is better. I think internet over glorifies the negative aspects of decency but at the good side of humanity its overrall better.

[razelove]

I agree, the internet has become the breeding ground and echo chamber for many men and women to hate and distrust each other more. The most ironic I find that damages both men and women is the advice to avoid women who have slept around... by sleeping with those same women, just never in a relationship.

Like what kind of 1984 logic is that? 2+2 is 4 except when it is 5. Anyway, the only thing I can figure is to avoid cities. Do you have any ideas or strategies to avoid that kind of behavior?(Aside from simply ignoring it)

[turnpost]

I would avoid women who sleep around, because it shows that is what the value in there life. I value connection first then sex. So there actions are very telling. Cities are fine. Are women who sleep around bad, no there just not for me.

[Billlewis]

I think misogyny is worse, by far, because men, in general are inherently flawed creatures, and the only way a guy has a chance to fulfill his potential is to acknowledge his vulnerability as a male and work tirelessly to ensure that it doesn't sabotage his relationships with women.

[DarkLegacy]

Lol at all the sexist women saying misogyny is worse, it is fact that misandry is worse. it is more of a problem then misogyny. Feminism is to blame

[razelove]

I'd say feminism was necessary for women up until the civil rights movement. We can only look at history, we weren't there to live it though. Modern feminism does only exist to lift women up at the expense of opportunities for men.
Ironically the premise is at the expense of women now as well in that pursuit. They get more degrees than us, but most of them are useless. Online dating gives them infinite choice, until they hit the wall...
My opinion is that no matter which one it is it hurts both men and women. Where have men or women benefitted from anything during or past the sexual revolution?

[DarkLegacy]

Neither gender has benefited at all, it has just caused more unhappiness and men and women being at each others throats, there is so much fighting in relationships these days. On the subject of women hitting the wall, it is important that men that women would usually reject don't become the compromise option for these women just because they can't find anyone else.

[GOLDFISH_smile]

Well, misandry rarely kills people.

[razelove]

Then why are men committing suicide 4 times more than women now?
https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

[GOLDFISH_smile]

Are u claiming that all suicide is caused by sexism?

[razelove]

I think it's a lack of opportunities coupled with that, yes. If a man or woman doesn't have goals to work towards or no way to achieve them, most of which would be tied together by a family in our society, why else would you work towards the house, higher pay, and what not if you're just going to play video games and fool around?

I can't imagine how empty life would be without my wife and family. I could fool around with women, play games, and spend more time with my friends, but it would be so repetitive and pointless over the last decade and a half. More likely I just would have gotten tired of it and moved to central america or something though.

[GOLDFISH_smile]

Man u can't just say shit, imma need u to actually connect those dots. Even if I grant that loneliness is the is only cause of suicide, how does sexism cause all that loneliness?

[Exterminatore]

Yeah. Misandry doesn’t kill, it just divorce rapes and falsely accuses.

[SolitarySolace]

When a man can’t see his children because the woman always gains custody even if she’s a bad parent. I’ve heard of men committing suicide because he can’t see his kids anymore. You should watch The Red Pill Documentary. It’s by an ex feminist. It’ll explain to you why the male suicide rate is so high due to sexism directed towards men

[GOLDFISH_smile]

@SolitarySolace bro that's not the argument U think it is. Women being the primary caretakers was something feminism fought against, to try and balance the parental roles by having both parents work and both parents raise the kids. It's not misandry that is making women favored in custody battles—even granting that they are favored. It's just old fashionedness, if anything mysoginy, bc that's what forced the role on women in the first place. But EVEN IF u were right there too and misandry rlly did make women favored in custody battles, that still doesn't explain all loneliness. That just attributes some of it to sexism. Which obviously, some suicide is caused by sexism. Nobody is denying that. U claim that all is tho; that's an entirely different claim. If u wanna back that up ull have to do much more than show 1 example where it's unlikely even to be truly caused by misandry.

If u want to say that misandry causes all male loneliness (thus all male suicide), you'll have to show that it's impossible for men to be lonely unless they are victims of misandry. Do you see now why that's not a defensible stance to take?

[SolitarySolace]

Use the Tubi app and watch the red pull documentary. It’s free @GOLDFISH_smile, then reply back to me

[GOLDFISH_smile]

@SolitarySolace I'm not watching red pill shit again—not a whole ass documentary especially. I already went through that phase in hs.

[SolitarySolace]

Guess you just won’t understand then 🤷🏻‍♂️

[GOLDFISH_smile]

@SolitarySolace guess not 🤷‍♀️

[razelove]

It's hard to ask someone afterwards what there exact reasons are... I'd say what leads me to the conclusion I draw is the at risk age group of middle aged men. Especially the factors generally involved that would lead an otherwise healthy person into that dead end.
Men will typically seek out less help and try to be stoic and cope. How does that work out so easy when your behaviors are labeled as toxic? If you're divorced or widowed and find dating to be absolutely insane compared to what you once knew?

www.everythingzoomer.com/.../

That note isn't one that I thought about much at all until my last doctor's visit and they're drilling in all these questions about depression. I asked why I'm getting the 5th degree there and he said middle aged men are an at risk group there. I'm entering middle age, boom.

[GOLDFISH_smile]

If men typically seeking out less help and trying to be stoic to cope doesn't actually help them cope and instead increases their risk of suicide, then isn't it important to call out that mindset as harmful? Encourage men to break from that "coping" mechanism they've been taught and to stop teaching boys the same one, since it doesn't even work? Im confused how you think the problem is misandry here.

[SolitarySolace]

Because, @GOLDFISH_smile, women are the ones that want men to be stoic and cope and not discuss their feelings. They claim to want men to do that but then those same women can easily use that man’s vulnerability against him and wtf can he do about that? So yes, it absolutely is misandry that is causing it. Inherent misandry that isn’t discussed out in the open because women don’t want to admit that they’re misandrists. It’s easier for them to consider themselves feminists which isn’t better. It’s the same thing just hidden behind a false narrative of “equality”

[GOLDFISH_smile]

@SolitarySolace u know women can be mysoginists too right? If a woman thinks men should be emotionless, never need help, unhurtable, while women should be emotional, vulnerable, and need help... does that sound like she thinks less of men, or less of women? Really. Misandry doesn't mean "it hurts men," it means "thinking men are lesser." Vice versa for misoginy. Both misandry AND misoginy hurt men AND women, cuz there both bad hurtful ways of thinking.

[SolitarySolace]

Why are you arguing against men for telling you how men are affected my misandry? Are you a fucking man? No? Than how the fuck would you know

[GOLDFISH_smile]

@SolitarySolace I don't have to be a man to know the definitions of words bro. Based on what YOU described men experiencing, that sounds like mysoginy, not misandry. What, do you not think mysoginy hurts men too? That seeing men as necessarily superior to women wouldn't obviously negatively affect men by holding them to inhuman standards—like you describe happens, and hurts men?

[genericname85]

yeah cause media pushes these feminazis and gender confused people a lot. they are doing that to devide the people and sadly AGAIN the people are dumb enough to let themself be devided.

[razelove]

I think in a lot of cases it isn't being dumb or not, but fear of losing your job if you say anything.

[genericname85]

well if you fear losing your job for saying what you think, you should probably ditch that employer anyway...

[razelove]

It isn't that easy when say, your employer is the government. I worked for the government and had a woman sexually harass me. Even when catching her on camera and having other employees back me up, I was ostracized and pressured into quitting with more years in my retirement account.

Straight up I was told I would never be promoted or trained on the equipment I needed to be promoted as she was my supervisor and controlled it. I just had to shake hands and quit.

Even if you refuse to engage with women on the job besides niceties and the work that needs to be done that could be an HR complaint. It isn't so easy to just ditch employer if you just don't want to sleep with co-workers, they approach you for that, and you're male.

I'm thinking of just ditching my degree and working for jobs that require physical labor so I don't have to be around women in the workplace and worry about that again. It's at a point where if you're slightly attractive and someone takes interest, it's a crime to say no if you're a guy.

[genericname85]

i worked for government organization an ngos in the public eye before. and when they tried to push me to use gendered language, i told them that i don't do that. so they can either deal with me not doing it or fire me. i don't give a fuck.

in the workspace, i engage with women on a purely professional level i don't use innuendo or questionable actions that might be reconstrued as "sexual approach". not because feminists or the threat of being framed but simply, cause that's my personal standard for professionalism.

[DaisyM23]

on a global perspective, women face much more prejudice/problems than men - do i feel more sorry for societies that allow child brides or men complaining about women complaining, such a tough decision...
even in the west, there's just so much hatred, people face different problems and gender isn't the only determiner

[KlinkyCoder]

Misandry by quite a shot. I think it might be because society has been conditioned to act as if men don't also have feelings and that only women should be listened to.

[razelove]

I think you're right on that, especially online. Both only serve to harm all of us. Even with the pendulum swing to misandry women complain about why men don't want to get married.

[Anonymous]

They're both toxic behaviours. But given history I think misogyny has been much more acceptable in the past and misandry isn't acceptable now. But given feminism and woke culture it has allowed it be excused by many.

But as I said bot are not acceptable and both are toxic behaviours.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

I haven't even given an opinion yet because I already see more girl saying misogyny and more guys saying misandry. I'd just like to say all humans are fucked.

[razelove]

In the short term I think so. Like we're going to go through depopulation and social collapse in the West because we aren't having children and don't have families in enough numbers to support our industrial base. Actually China and Japan aren't either. So go Islam I guess?

I figure that if people get into space, slash, burn, and renew, or molder into the ashes, those are really our only paths forwards. Like sure, we could go a whole "Brave New World" route, which seems to be where we're steering. To me though that seems much more like slowing the descent into a spiral rather than stopping it.

We have the artificial embryos, uterus, so on and so forth, so it isn't long until those can be mass-produced. Our drug technology is also progressing quite well with fentanyl, and the laundry list of new antidepressants, boner pills, designer drugs, basically pills that make you happy coming out every year.

You also have AI technology pushing the bleeding edge, same with neurolink, and the push to get back to the moon, and beyond. I think it's less that humans are fucked and more so that the vast majority of us are trapped in a mindset of "it can't get better, it will only get worse" no matter what it is.

Generally that gets better with a new frontier to explore. Those are all tapped out on earth. Either that or drugs to make everything feel better all the time and keep all of us in a child like state of wonder and ignorance from birth until death.

[Meropatrick]

Both. Because they are being politically motivated

[razelove]

I don't think misogyny was politically motivated, but out of necessity up until say the 1970s when most houses had electricity, easy access to running water, and you don't need a woman at home working hard on keeping a house while you have a man working hard to make that bread and butter.
Over 60 hour weeks are standard until 1880, then it gets around 40 hour weeks in 1940. Every time you have sex you might have another kid on the way, your most wild entertainment is the AM radio. Also drinking and amphetamines, most of the meth going to housewives in the way of dexadrine to do those tedious chores around the house and be ready in bed when hubby gets home.

That shit sounds bleak. No politician would benefit from it, no policy would make money there. That's just getting through one day to get to the next with some nice events and kids tossed in.

[Meropatrick]

didn't you notice recently a rise of videos on tiktok about high value males and redpill? Like andrew tate. These videos are there to stand against femenisim and the left. So misogyny is coming back by a political motive against the left. Thats what i noticed not sure.

[razelove]

Ah, I was about to go to bed when I replied, somehow I saw "have been" rather than "being". Like what, little house on the prairie wasn't published by black rock! lol

It's also pretty clear that Tate isn't politically sponsored with how swiftly and thoroughly he was cancelled, even going so far as to have Romania arrest him for human trafficking and what not because he allegedly seduced women to be trafficked... to him. Call me naive but I thought crimes needed victims.

Pretty much anyone in the men's right movement gets slammed down pretty hard. He pushes a pretty extreme ideology where very few men will run harems of many women. The problem is that it does line up with women who chase Chad. Same with pick up artists, no one can argue with their results, though many will argue about what they do. MGTOW is in the same boat as both of them, and incels don't have a choice to begin with unless they become PUA.

I just wish that MRM groups would focus more on men's lives, and the intersection with feminism outside of sex and dating. Like realistically the time and opportunities there don't define life, and take up relatively little time in it. Maybe I just say that because I am in a pretty privileged place there where I'm married and have a family, who knows.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think either is worse anywhere other than on the internet.

[razelove]

I agree to an extent. Certainly the voices and gathering of misandry and misogyny are largest in anonymous groups online. Both do carry over to real world actions though. I'll leave the workplace out as that can be highly subjective (pay gap or EDI).
Men get destroyed in divorce and family court, while women now are ignored as violent crimes are committed on them.
I can't help but think that influence is creating the mentality of "no win" for both. Also the internet is a reflection of people, it had to come from somewhere, even if it was amplified there.

[Reorx]

I think both are equally prevalent Who benefits? Not us, the leet's..

[razelove]

I do see how it is another distraction that helps them, like the left vs right divide, but this one isn't a 30% vs 30%, it's 50/50. Rather than focus on where our taxes are going, the deficit, food logistics, ESG, or anything like that, focus on online dating, EDI, and division.
It isn't an angle I thought of, though I don't think it's that deep. It seems too organic and widespread for far too long, like since the sexual revolution. Individuals are making a lot of money to give shitty advice to men and women.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Misandry is worse. Masculinity gets attacked constantly in the media for being oppressive and toxic

[razelove]

This is true, the feeling of walking on eggshells sucks, especially at work. Toxic masculinity is a joke. There are toxic men and women. To ostracize an entire gender because of a few assholes, male or female is not the way to handle it.

[Jltakk]

Misandry, yes
Misogyny, absolutely not. Women used to treated far worse simply for being women many many years back.

[razelove]

Well, at least we can "identify" if it gets too bad.

[msc545]

Misandry is much worse and nobody really cares. Women think its funny.

[razelove]

Add on to that every men's group that has popped up being labelled as dangerous, if I remember right MGTOW got labelled as a white supremacist group... Their whole shtick is simply to not be involved with women so that's confusing as hell.
I can understand flak being thrown at PUA and some other ones though. Misandry is picking up steam, but I look on the bright side. As the marriage rate is falling, so is the divorce rate lol
It doesn't help out in the job market, education, or those removing themselves though :/

[Smiling_Baby21]

I think with the feminism "madness". A lot of women have been made to think that Men are their problem...
And you can come for me, but if I have an issue with a male chauvinistic man, I don't blame the whole gender.

[asphaltrhymes]

Scales seem to fluctuate often lol. I voted currently, misandry. Just because. 😋

[Anonymous]

Misogyny is view through a magnifying glass and misandry is viewed through a telescope.

[razelove]

How do you mean?

[VadeinVain]

One is small but spoken of often, the other is not seen as an issue but very prevalent?

[Opinion Owner]

@QA Sorry, it wasn't the best analogy but VadeinVain stated it better than I did.

@VadeinVain Spot on bro.

[jshm2]

Neither, Child abuse is worse today.

Back then it was just labour, and everyone went through it, with the odd killer and rapist in the mix. Now there are CP sites and communities actively out to target children.

[HippieVeganJewslim]

The world, misogyny. The damn Yankeeland, misandry, I reckon. Society gives everything to women and about half to men. Oy vey.

[slatyb]

In the US? The recent anti-abortion legislation in many states makes the answer rather obvious.

[razelove]

Uh, how so, I remember girls in my high school getting knocked up, then taking train rides to colorado to get abortions so their parents wouldn't find out.

[slatyb]

And there is much recent legislation attempting to prevent that.

[razelove]

Greyhound and amtrac are still running, the only legislation I remember even close to that was the whole vaccine passport thing. If it's legal in another state, you can go there. Any state that tried to pry into patient confidentiality would be playing with fire.

[Jamie05rhs]

Misogyny is still worse. Because women are misogynist against themselves. At this point, they have fully embraced it! (See OnlyFans.)

[Aiko_E_Lara]

You may not realize that they're using misogyny on themselves to actually weaponize men making them more of a misandrist. If one woman objectify herself, she's objectifying millions of men.

[VadeinVain]

@Aiko_E_Lara This makes misandry a product of misogyny, which means misogyny is a more deeply rooted issue. People are against men as an unreasonable measure against hatred of women.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Except that's not even the only example of misandry. And I there are also many ways men objectify themselves to gain value

[razelove]

@Aiko_E_Lara Men and women objectify themselves for attention, things, or just for the hell of it. I do agree with @VadeinVain that one breeds the other. Sometimes that pendulum swing is weighted towards one end, but misandry and misogyny feed on and amplify each other.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

That's basically my point. it takes two tango

[WanderingLoveWizard]

I don't know, but they're both just as wrong and annoying.
(Wrong as in incorrect)

[Massageman]

EVERYthing is worse today!

[razelove]

How was it back in your day? The grass isn't always greener, but from what my grandpa used to tell me about, besides the draft it sounded pretty sweet lol

[Massageman]

We were brought up to leave things as good or better, not to destroy. Others' property was just that- THEIR property, and you had no "right" to it. People had to earn their way, not expect freebies to drop out of the sky for no valid reason. You didn't sit in an intersection and expect not to get hit by a car. Basically, you learned what you need to know to get through life in kindergarten, because teachers taught instead of run herd and count score on government-mandated BS. Take turns (teamwork): say please and thank you (courtesy): look before closing the street (sanity!): boys go in the boys room, girls in the girls room (biology) : wash after going potty (hygiene): open the door for others (polite respect), etc. etc. I was very early in the draft list, but since I have congenital muscle issues I was not acceptable for the Armed Forces, but I still had to go to the exams, etc.

[razelove]

Damn, so you were up for the tail end up Vietnam? Still, everything else seems legit, take accountability for yourself as you work in society, or don't be a part of that society.

I had to move twice during Covid to find a neighborhood where there were actual kids outside my kids could play with. I profited during both moves, but holy hell, to go through that much trouble and trying to integrate into a new community just so kids can be kids, it's insane. I still have some neighbors I'm just meeting who have children my kids' age just getting outside. They're all socially retarded.

[Massageman]

Case in point! Two yeas of COVID has actually regressed some to a lower point than in the beginning. Talk about taking two steps forward and three back!

[Anonymous]

At the very least, misandric actions is supported by law in the west. I can't say the same about misogyny.

[razelove]

I don't see what you're getting at. Is it a good or bad thing that systemically bashing men is legal?

[Opinion Owner]

I am not saying that it should be illegal because then there will be conflicts as to what counts as misandry and we don't want to make the same mistake feminism made where they made anything that simply makes a woman feel uncomfortable count as misogyny.

My issue is that if the legal system and our so (y) ciety didn't have double standards they would have no standards.

[Opinion Owner]

So (y) ciety

[Opinion Owner]

Never mind I was making a play on words but GAG isn't having it.

[razelove]

I'm seeing that, it's probably because you're sending from mobile so (y) ciety. Let's see if that's different from PC.

I do agree that double standards in both civil and criminal court are to blame for a lot of it. Like no new laws need to be made, the existing ones just need to be enforced without bias, EEO policies need to be able to be challenged in court, alimony appealed when a woman gets remarried, child support should not lead to debtors prison. We aren't China, we don't have debtors prison.

That among many others. The ball just needs to get rolling. I'm not even going to address politicization of courts, it's disgusting, and it isn't fair to say it's just being done by the left. Local and state courts get co-opted by the right just as much around where I live and the only real difference is pushing more guilty verdicts onto everyone until it comes out that the DA was taking bribes and suppressing exculpatory evidence.

[razelove]

Damn, you're right, it just won't play out lol

[Dargil]

They are equally bad.

[whistlingwh0res]

All women are whore all men are thief

[razelove]

Well damn. What are the men stealing, and where are the women finding the men to sleep with if that's the case? I'm just trying to wrap my mind around that one.

[gothbxtch]

misogyny.

[razelove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY
Why?

[Anonymous]

Very much so

[razelove]

Could you elaborate please?

[Opinion Owner]

Misogyny and misandry were not questioned or cared about much in the past. But are a big deal now, misogyny to be exact. It causes people today to peg others as misogynist easily these days for every shit. This was never a thing in the past.

[razelove]

I think cancel culture and doxing are disgusting as well. Like if you disagree with the message of say Andrew Tate, the best way to combat it is point out that it works for him, but that lifestyle won't for 99.9% of other men, also that he primarily relied on women and incels to make it work.

Addressing misandry is something that confuses me more. To even point out that someone is being a misandrist is to be labeled, as you said, a misogynist and swing around full circle, whether it is in the workplace, in a conversation, online, what have you. Disengaging from them is the only solution I've found.