I can come up with some like self-objectification, radical feminism/liberation..., but I'd like more constructive reasons to support this.
Or if you disgree, you can also share your opinion. Thank you.
It's not- chivalry is FAR from dead; it just no longer applies to women. Not nearly as much, at least. Chivalry, fundamentally, is defense of the indefensible; it still applies to children and the infirm. The problem was that as the needs of immediate survival receded, society gradually recentered itself around the ideals of the aristocracy, not those of the common people, and women began to be seen as large children. Much like with Chinese foot binding, it's basically the ultimate form of conspicuous consumption; "I'm so rich I can have half my population be completely useless!"- but of course, that only works if you limit it to the nobility.
It never applied to the rank and file of humanity; the wife of the fisherman wasn't sitting on her ass all day; she was cleaning, cooking, and selling fish. The wife of the farmer was working alongside him in the fields, and so on. Think of the fable of the princess and the pea: what sane man would WANT a wife so sensitive that she could feel a pea under multiple mattresses? Can you IMAGINE what being married to her would be like? How such a woman would handle pregnancy? Childbirth? Parenting? It's a matter of status, not pragmatism.
The industrial revolution changed things again, as did the World Wars (and other conflicts of a similar relative scale), but the big turning point was the Feminist movement, which contained many women who wanted to be seen as equal to men, and far more who thought they wanted to be seen that way, but changed their minds when they learned what it actually entailed. As women collectively gained more and more power, more and more of the social indulgence granted to them- i. e., chivalry, as you use it here- was withdrawn, since they'd demonstrated adult capabilities again. This lead to a second anti-Feminist backlash (the first being more directly political in nature; think Earnest Belfort Bax, not Esther Villar) by women who WANTED special treatment on the basis of sex- but most of whom, to this day, still insist they want equality. Funnily enough, the closest thing to a Feminist in a foxhole you'll ever find IS one of the radicals; they're bitter, hateful bigots, but at least they're honest.
So to the extent that the quote is true, it WAS women who killed (their reception of) chivalry; just not the current population of them. But it wasn't murder, it was growing up. Was it trading up? That's a trickier question.
Modern day feminism mixed the LGBTQ+ movement are two evil ideologies that diminished and emasculated men and masculinity. Women and girls have to read this and understand something. There are a bunch of no good, promiscuous, rude women out there but at the same time there are good, noble, trustworthy women out there as well. What I am trying to say so no female on here can say, OH SEE ANOTHER ANGRY GUY WHAT A LOSER! I clearly provided an example of bad women and good women. Same goes for men/guys, there are good men/guys and there are bad men/guys. For some weird reason women and girls nowadays hate men, judge men severely and I'm thinking where does all this hate stem from? Both genders are tired of each other with the games, manipulation, how the media plays a role in division.
People have to know their gender roles but because people on the left lean more towards multiple genders, that cancels out that group of people knowing who they are. But Women and girls need to act feminine and STOP trying to be men. I'm tired of the billboards of "grow some lady balls". I'm all for women protecting themselves, aiming higher for education to be doctors, lawyers, judges, athletes, etc. But this constant competition of trying to outdo men in everything is not for "bragging" rights its to make men look stupid and to humiliate them. Women and girls want power. But when it comes time for war, girls won't show up. Guys and men fight in wars, women and girls got to stay home or work while men fought overseas or in different countries.
Feminism taught women that marriage is not good, that having babies was a form of imprisonment, that a man or guy is a tampon. Females start divorce, 80% of the time and I've noticed women and girls dont want to work on something to get better. A guy could have one flaw that isn't illegal and she'll freak out. Men and guys don't feel valued and that's why chivalry is dead. Women play games, they talk to more guys thanks to social media and bad influence from her own friends. Why should a guy invest time getting to know a girl or woman genuinely? I see women and girls proudly say, "Women/girls don't owe you shit" that may be true but same goes for guys/men. It takes two to tango but women wanted to destroy the family unit, marriage, males, etc. All based on power for women? It's pathetic, 20-30 years from now, a lot of girls who talked smack on GAG with their ignorant views will one day realize their mistakes.
This is not to be a female hater, I hope men and women work on themselves and improve and people are with each other for the right purposes and intentions. Once males know their role, females know their role. Maybe then chivalry will return, maybe guys and men will take pride with it. My whole thing is this, If I've been talking to a girl 5+ months and we meet up and she's super friendly and flirting, Im hoping it leads to a relationship. But a lot of girls play games want situationships... No thanks, I don't want to be a male whore.
I don't think chivalry is dead. People still hold doors open for others and stuff. My dad got my mom flowers for Valentines Day. And I'm sure all of my sisters and their husbands did the same. But when I was in school, at any grade, I always held the door open for people to walk in and out of in the mornings. I'd do it even when I didn't feel like it and felt crappy. "I don't want to do this!" "Well, we are because it's a nice gesture, so yes, yes, we will be. We do it every day."
I don't think chivalry is dead. I have a chivalrous husband.
I think some men are less inclined to be chivalrous, because women don't seem to appreciate it as much. They see it as condescension.
It's more like chivalry is fearfully hiding.
Opinion
36Opinion
u As long as I am alive, chivalry is not dead.
Every heard of nice guys finish last, lots of women claim the opposite of what they are attracted too, they say they want the prince charming with the flowers and opening doors and the whole fiasco but if they aren't rich they won't be attracted to them, then they run to the asshole that shows all the red flags that just ends up pumping and dumping them and then they whine on why they can't get a good guy, meanwhile all the good guys are ignored or played until the woman finds a replacement, these men then see no good results of being a good guy so they make character changes and turn to players or assholes and then the cycle just continues and that's the cycle that kills it, personally I had to make my own adjustments to be attractive to women, I sacrificed a lot for women and the results sucked so I stopped sacrificing so much, grew a backbone where I can now put a woman in their place when they step out of line and I found a good balance between an asshole and good guy that seems to work for me, I'm never going back to that pushover version of myself but it seems many don't find this balance, they just turn to assholes and use women.
Actually there a lot of women out there who want the best of both worlds. Want to be “equal” yet special.
Anyway no random internet post is ever going to change anyone’s mind. But I can say with complete confidence that the direction our culture is going in bad for both men and women. Singlehood rates are at record highs. Depression rates are skyrocketing.
But men are expendable. Our issues are not nor ever have been a top priority for society. The vast majority of women don’t care either (unless there is some benefit in it for them).
Married men and guys in long term relationships also don’t want waste their time focusing on single guy problems. I know because I acted different when I was in past long term relationships. My brain chemistry changed.
But again nothing is going to change until women finally acknowledge that this “modern approach” is really making women unhappy. When that day will come is anyone guess.
I don't know if chivalry is truly dead in that it completely ceases to exist in individual people or as a concept. In general, I always hold doors open for people, for example. Both men and women. Anecdotally, however; it's generally the women who let the door shut when I am approaching it.
I think more so what has happened is an examination of classic, but modern forms of chivalry -- such as opening doors for women, walking on on the edge of the sidewalk, etc -- as being unnecessary and is now just something to do if you want to be courteous. Which is still something everybody should strive to be.
With the advent of feminism and the discourse on gender roles being bad (for women), men have concluded that true equality means that women are not inherently deserving of chivalrous display and that, if she seeks equality to men, then perhaps men should also be recipients of such courteous actions, as it's not like chivalry has ever really benefitted men to the same extent as it has women. Chivalry dictated that men even need sacrifice themselves for women (and children) in the adage of "women and children first."
These days, it's every man for himself in the event of a disaster or emergency because it's simply not the role of men to die or be chivalrous if it isn't the role of women to honor and submit to men as it used to be.
As for Dave Chappelle, I interpreted it as though he's referring to the extreme entitlement of some women while they are not grateful for the things men do for them, they sort of just take it for granted or expect it, not even giving the chivalrous man a "thank you."
At some point, men largely became aware and collectively said, "no, this isn't worth it" when it comes to the common female in public.
It's more reserved for the women in his life that loves and appreciates his efforts.
Look around the world you live in right now. Look at all the unhappy, single and depressed men out there. Look how most men nowadays are afraid of simply being nice or just being helpful to someone else, because they're afraid of being labeled something heinous. Who do you think did that? Who do you think is responsible for making men self-doubt themselves simply because they exist? Who do you think is responsible for labeling all men that look at them as "potential rapists" and "menaces to society" and that society would "flourish" if all men ceased to exist?
And no, I don't intend to point fingers here at anyone, or take names, but this is the unfortunate reality of the world now. Men are afraid to be men because if they try to be themselves, they're labeled as misogynistic dogs who are simply doing something nice because they expect something in return, and the modern media isn't making it any easier either with all the new shows we have trending on Netflix.
Did I miss anything?
I would agree with the first part but I would say the liberation moment that led to a sexual revolution killed it. I think what actually killed it is the change in the way people look for relationships. Chilvary is either taken for granted by some or misunderstood as an act of men wanting to put women down.
If I as a guy for a woman I don´t because I don´t think she´s not capable herself but because I want her to have it easy and comfortable. Guys often define themselves by their actions it´s a way for him showing is present and wanting to help. Women saying: "We can do that, too." and emphasizing their own capability make guys feel like chilvary is an unwanted present. It´s like going to a birthday with a gift and the person that´s supposed to get it make it look like they don´t care that you brought something.
But because some women emphasizing they are perfectly capable to do the same things and because the sexual revolution came up where people emphasize on the sexual stuff guys stopped being chilvarous since there seems to be no need for that anymore. Guys have become focused on sex and if they don´t they are confused about dating and are afraid of being seen as a misogynist since who he is to think that women couldn´t do those chilvarous acts so they wait for the women iniate and be the active part in dating.
If it's the gentleman code of conduct we're talking about, then there's no way to blame women for it from my perspective if it was truly an ethical perspective of what's right and wrong.
If I hold a door open for some raging feminist who believes I'm infantilizing her, she failed to notice I hold the door open for even men, and I'm not going to stop on her account. That's her problem, not mine.
If I am kind to someone and they betray my kindness, I cannot blame them if I cease to be kind to others. That fault would entirely be my own.
So only men can kill the gentleman in them as I see it. I haven't killed mine. I'm not always the perfect gentleman but I still try to be.
@GuyAnswersGirls123 laid it out. I can't improve on what he said, but I agree completely.
Guys who don't agree had bad role models. They have no idea how to be men. So they blame women.
Women didn't destroy chivalry. Some guys are just dysfunctional. That isn't to say that some women aren't messed up, too.
It is foolish to let one set of people destroy anything for all others for in a larger community it simply means you will have nothing.
There will after all always be someone in a large enough population who doesn't like something.
Therefore it is not "women" who killed Chivalry but rather our civil and cultural leaders who enabled and supported such radicals who killed it. In trying to accommodate their demands.
In this case by making it more costly and dangerous for men to be Chivalrous out of a believes in feminism. So no Women didn't kill it, cultural & political leaders did.
If we want to have anything nice we either must in some way separate ourselves from said bad leaders in favor of ones that support theses things. This is done either via replacing them or creating new communities independent of them.
Realistically the latter given how much support said ideas have among certain sections of the 'modern' west.
I don't think it is I think it is just very rare now. I for example am very chivalrous and gentlemanly. That being said I have had to deal with some toxic sea urchins who seemed to not understand that a kind gesture is not doubting there strength or ability to do said thing. A kind gesture is kind for the sake of being kind. Now while I am gentlemanly and chivalrous I am also quick to respond to insults with counters and they tend to be far worse than what was originally said.
That being said for the most part women did kill it with stupid shit like "I can open my own door I don't need you to hold it" (word for word what one those low life gutter snails has said) or "get away from me creep" while crossing the street. (Also word for word) yes I responded to both and no the outcomes were not pleasant.
I think it’s just demanding women that men with self respect hate. As well as women who are offended by nice gestures. I never had it happen to me. As a man if someone holds a door or something I make a point to sah thank you. Not everything is sexual. You do nice things because you don’t have to.
But I think women who feel entitled are just as bad.
Chivalry was never a one way street. It was women being respectful to men and men being respectful to women. Quite a nice attitude that facilitated two halves of the population getting along.
In an early phase of women's lib, women got angry with men for the small courtesy of opening or holding a door. It was sexist. Similarly if a woman was picking up something that looked heavy. If a man offered to help as was customary that was sexist.
Lots of customary courtesies became sexist until they became misogynistic.
A part of feminism was to be disrespectful to men. With one half of the chivalry deal dead, the other half went as well. it is no more complicated than that.
Let me first say that if chivalry is indeed, dead, then I view this as a tremendous loss for society as a whole, as well as men and women. If we've gotten so jaded and cynical that we refuse to believe anyone would do something nice, not because they expect something in return, but simply because they genuinely want to demonstrate their manners, I think we're in serious trouble.
Aside from these concerns, I think it's sad that we're losing yet another way for people to interact with one another. Call it a sign of the tech weary times in which we're living.
They killed ot by punishing these behaviors. If a guy tries to be chivalrous today and buys a woman flowers, tries to court her, and takes her out to dinner he will likely get taken advantage of, friend-zoned, or just flat-out rejected in favor of a guy who does none of these things, treats her like crap, cheats on her, etc. Furthermore most modern women aren't even deserving of chivalry because this sort treatment was intended for ladies who would be virgins on their wedding night and submit to their husbands' authority. You can't be a modern empowered, sexually-liberated, independent woman and expect traditional chaste woman benefits.
We have become more cynical as a society, particularly where male/female dynamics are concerned. Once considered a hallmark of good manners and proper rearing, chivalry is now widely regarded as patronizing at best and (at worst) oppressive by younger women. Younger men would consider it to be outdated at best and (at worst) ingratiating or even simping.
I think we all cringe whenever we see 50+ year old men on this site galloping to the defense of 20 year old girls who are getting roasted for saying something stupid. Yet despite doing my bit in its erosion, I think we all lament the break down in good faith between the sexes. Perhaps what we need is better delineation between chivalry (which is honorable) and simping (which is not). .
It helps to think back as to why chivalry existed to begin with. The answer is, "men practiced chivalry because it helped them get high-quality (i. e., attractive) women." But over time, as it became less and less important to display chivalry in order for a man to get high-quality women, the incentive to display chivalry was reduced. So you see less of it. In some cases it's actively detrimental to display chivalry, so that's a further disincentive.
I went to a trendy jazz bar in Philly. The kind where people know the difference between bourbon and whiskey. The kind that has one bathroom. I was in line pretty far back and a woman was behind me. We hit it off and chatted for however long it took for me to be next. I say "ladies first" and she flips out "I don't believe in that" I say " well I do, so I'm not going until you do" We just keep telling the next person to go instead and played morals chicken until the bar closed. She was fuming as she left with her friends with a full bladder as I was relieving myself on the street.
Saying that women killed is a bold statement as it seems like you're referring every women. Feminists killed it.
Chivalry is the idea that, every once in a while, men should pretend to serve and exalt women and that will be interpreted as charming. And the reason it will be interpreted as charming is because we all know that ordinarily it is the other way around. Women killed this by insisting it not be that "other way around" all the time, so chivalry loses its context for making any sense.
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