With modern guns and drones, is military hand-to-hand training still useful?

Question

Technically, the Marine Corps still spends about 2 days of your training on bayonet fighting, even though your odds of being in a knife or bayonet fight in the modern warfare is probably less than 1 in 10,000. I'm wondering whether there is any real need for the approximately 90 to 120 hours of martial arts training recruits receive any longer? That's not long enough to teach really high level striking nor grappling, so I wonder what's the point? Marines get beat by hobbyists and professional fighters in friendly rolls every day, because hobbyists and pros have thousands of hours of training, while marines have just 90 to 120 hours of training.

The reliability of automatic and semi-automatic weapons is what made knives and pikes obsolete in warfare, not the actual damage output. A bullet hole smaller than your pinky finger will still kill you, even if it is not as gruesome as being cut in half in one swing by a sword, or impaled on a pike.

I mean, what they teach you in basics and advanced training is "correct", but not complete, and because 99.999% of recruits will never see hand-to-hand combat in a modern war, it's functionally useless for warfare.

Anonymous · Accepted Answer

Of course it is.

Is camouflage important with thermal scopes, night vision, motion detection etc all this new stuff on smart scopes.

It would be wrong to just assume that drone warfare is here to stay. When WW2 started they thought it would be fought the same way WW1 was and even the way the spainish civil war was but technology moved fast and a lot of the preconceived notions quickly disappeared.

Point is drones can be jammed and there are counters such as counter drones, jamming drone signals, anti drone missiles and platforms, shooting down satellites, tracing drone signals and of course new anti drone weapons for soldiers.

For instance they have developed new anti drone weapons in 5.56 thats more effective than shotgun rounds and can be fired from any standard issue nato rifle and can be paired up with the new smart scopes. You might say that even with the new 5.56 anti drone round the soldier still has to hit the drone but with the new smart scopes it can be set that the rifle will only fire if they can hit the incoming drone..

The battlefield has changed. In Afghanistan and iraq insurgents quickly realised that even from cover firing at US troops and convoys was suicide because of the crows weapon system mounted on APCs and humvess. The crows could mount any calibre machine gun and is a remote turret with night vision, thermal optics, balistic calculator and telescopic vision so nowhere to hide. And thats 20-30 year old tech. Now they are putting that tech on the standard issue rifle of every us soldiers.

katiesmuff · Accepted Answer

I would say yes as anytime humans would end up on the front line in combat it has all the possibilities of becoming hand to hand combat.

LifeHitMeandRan · Accepted Answer

Former Navy Corpsman here. We have to train in MCMAP with the Marines before we deploy with them.

Keep in mind, hand to hand combat is usually reserved for when shit has hit the fan. Also, MCMAP/Combatives is not designed for you to stand there and trade blows with the enemy like a boxer or UFC fighter. It is designed for you to get back to your weapon or hold out until another Marine, soldier, etc. to help you out.

Hand to hand combat DOES still have a place in modern warfare and always will. Despite the tech we have, there were plenty of times where some enemies were able to get too close for comfort. Not often, but it does happen.

Also, when we would kick doors in Iraq, we never knew who was waiting around the next corner. There were times where an enemy successfully grabbed a Marine's rival and the Marine used his MCMAP training. Rifles are also hard to use in confined spaces. Plus there are times when you raid an enemy stronghold that you don't want the sound of rifle fire to alert an enemy before you are ready. Also, sometimes rifles jam. When they do, the movements you learn in bayonet training still work to jam the muzzle into the enemy or for properly using the rifle as a blunt force weapon.

Staximus · Accepted Answer

"Marines get beat by hobbyists and professional fighters in friendly rolls every day" because most of their hand to hand combat moves are banned in gyms. They aren’t trained to roll around on the ground with each other like a couple of fruits, they are trained to kill.

RavVid · Answer

First I should say I have never been in the military and have only read military history.

But the bayonet is a fearsome weapon. It was regarded as the primary weapon in the Napoleonic days and smooth bore muskets as secondary. Guys on both sides would stand shoulder to shoulder in lines and shoot at each other without breaking but would break and run from a bayonet charge.

Napoleon lost Waterloo because his Old Guards broke from a bayonet charge. The old Guard kept marching forward toward the thin red line and being shot without being able to reply. Even when the British ran down flank of their column and shot them from 50 yards they still march forward. When bayonets were fixed they broke and ran. Seeing the old Guard flee destroyed the whole French army... to a degree that really wasn't warranted.

It just creates fear in a way that rifle fire and cannon shot doesn't.

The last Australian bayonet charge was in Korea in 1950 as was the last US. The last British bayonet charge was in 2011 in Afghanistan, previously at Goose Green in the Falklands. All in desperate circumstances - the first two against machine guns.

Desperate circumstances can still occur. A guy, in my apartment block, was at Battle of Coral (Vietnam). They were put into position too late in the day. It got so desperate they were firing fleshette rounds from their cannons horizontally over the heads of their own troops and calling shell fire down onto their own lines. No bayonet charge but they did fix bayonets and fought with them because the enemy was inside their lines.

While desperate circumstances shouldn't happen there is always the possibility and those 192 hours one day might win a battle still.

Hunter-40m · Answer

Hand to hand combat has its use when the things go wrong and having to be fought at close range hand to hand combat practices when performed regularly and more repeatedly make the moves almost natural and automatic response like reflexes helping to save that Marine s life in unexpected situations of course advanced Technology and weaponary some certain advantages but some old school way of fighting still has its rightful place

msc545 · Answer

This kind of training like many other things in the Marine corp is is just a holdover from years and years of tradition that the Marines are not about to give up, no matter how little sense it makes. It goes along with many other things at the Marine corps that makes no sense but in the end they get a whole bunch of men that are stupid enough to charge into automatic weapons fire convinced that they and they alone will not be the ones to be badly injured or die... Until they do.

Telekinetic-Potato · Answer

I've heard stories of things going hand to hand when detaining people or engaged in indoor/cqb areas. At the end of the day your job is to kill people so you can't be expected to do it properly if you can't fight with your hands can you?

Anonymous · Answer

It's a valid question for any country's military trainings. For comparison below - fire 🚒 trucks

I for one wonder if the same reasoning could be applied to "how come I don't see firefighters carrying axes or even hand axes on their tool belts when exiting their fire trucks - as standard equipment as their helmets - why?"

It's a valid question. Like even an axe this size 🪓 was in their logos and crests as recently.

OneViewpoint · Answer

I never really have to as I never wear heavy clothing even in winter. My problem is too much body heat rather than being cold.

NaultD · Answer

In close quarters obviously. Like a condom it's better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

DryGermanGuy · Answer

Wars are won by the infantry... as you can see in Iran. Or Ukraine.

strateguy632 · Answer

Yes, for endurance and health and in rare cases when near. Like in films.

Pohjolan · Answer

Yes. Firstly its also psychological and secondly spies and saboteurs haven't somehow ceased to exist. Its more relevant to MPs of course than tankers.

NathanDavis · Answer

war is no game... lol

exitseven · Answer

yes, in case you get in a bar fight.

Dargil · Answer

It was in Venezuela.

oldman26 · Answer

It is called basic training for a reason

AgentG111 · Answer

Absolutely!

With modern guns and drones, is military hand-to-hand training still useful?

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