There is no chaos without order and there is no order without chaos. Agree or Disagree?

[thegreenyogi]

[SeekerOfTruth007]

The Greeks' original religion has a Being called "Chaos" as the true First Cause of reality.

In the Hebrew Bible, Chaos is actually the first thing the supposed "God" actually created. A condition where even light and darkness were one and the same things.

Now in Quantum Theory, we know space-time is in fact made up of virtual photon particles in pairs under very high tension, which can generally only be broken in the presence of something very powerful, such as a black hole. Anyway, the Biblical author somehow got this exactly right: Light and Darkness (Void) are somehow one and the same things.

Now Classical Chaos is a condition of no laws or order, but the strange thing is Chaos seemingly gives rise to laws and order in the long term, because Chaos implies anything which can happen will eventually happen, including an ordered universe.

Chaos actually embodies the idea of Free Moral Agency, which means that if Chaos really exists, then God exists.

[Kaneki05]

Simple answer yes.
Complex answer no, as to be accurate it's there is no ability for us to perceive order without chaos. If let's say you were somehow born into a world with no light, only dark no sun, no stars you wouldn't know light exists since you never perceived it but the worlds inner core is still a massive ball of fire that for sure produces light you just aren't aware of it.
So strictly speaking nether one has to exist for the other, but for our awareness yes cause how could you call something Order without knowing the opposite? You wouldn't call the world dark as there was no light for you to compare.

[Wodens_Apprentice]

No order isn't just a matter of human perspective really. Chaos & order isbthe fabric of reality itself. It's truth & boundary all the time, with broken boundaries resulting in chaos.
The very existence of a thing & it's reactions to other things is a form of order whilst pure chaos would be just emptiness.

[Kaneki05]

There is a difference between humans being aware of something over it existing so that wasn't my point, though you are also wrong the value of chaos and order is entirely on the one doing the measuring. Chaos and Order are measurements equal to numbers these don't exist beyond what we try to class as such.
Subjective not objective, and your own view is direct proof of this as someone could easily oppose such view and you'd never have either be scientifically correct since you are both measuring two completely different scales of what it means.
As such one could see pure order as equally being just emptiness.

[Wodens_Apprentice]

Numbers are the very thing used by academics to measure science alone, which is why science never provides any deeper answers then purely mathematical representation for material & reactions we don't even fully understand beyound our calculative methods. The only other thing humans have to measure reality with is the emotional side of our brain, otherwise it's completely inperceivable.
If nature itself is capable of building a computer capable of observing reality & constructing realities in our heads like computers can, that would suggest our very reality must follow a pattern our very heads, calculators & science (which is just fancy maths) are capable of processing.
I don't really know how you can get more scientific then that, as science & maths is regarded as the same thing and I see this as a logical conclusion to make.
If humans fully understood how the universe works our brains probably wouldn't process it unless it works just through rationale (maths) or emotion/art/instinct based patterns (which a scientist would never use as that contradicts science).

[Kaneki05]

@Wodens_Apprentice Pretty sure you didn't disagree with me besides the personal belief of this 'that would suggest our very reality must follow a pattern our very heads, calculators & science (which is just fancy maths) are capable of processing.' which sounds just like an absurd argument as the sun is just the right distance from earth so it must've been done for us. Not how that works at all.
Reality doesn't nor must follow what we are capable of processing at all. Also you seem to contradict your own point by then saying 'if humans fully understood how the universe works our brains wouldn't process it' therefore... reality does not follow what we able to process.

Honestly you aren't making much sense, but before descending further away answer me this.
Who measures chaos and order if no humans exist?
Do you propose the universe? or god? something alike? Which if so isn't that just another thing measuring it's own concept of the idea?

[Wodens_Apprentice]

"which sounds just like an absurd argument as the sun is just the right distance from earth so it must've been done for us. Not how that works at all." It's not absurd when you consider how big reality is & how many other dimensions/universes out there, which is likely to look like an infinite number with large gaps of nothing in-between.
"Reality doesn't nor must follow what we are capable of processing at all." Well if our brains can use maths to accurately predict outcomes that would suggest our brains are tapping into the way reality is structured, even if it doesn't fully comprehend it. I don't think it's a contradiction & would support my belief (that can't be proven scientifically) that our emotions, instinct & thought imagery might also reflect something to do with the nature of reality.
The reason I come to this conclusion is because our mind & a computer can both structure a world. In every religion there seems to be a common recognition that something wills reality into existence with it's mind and we're a product of that.
"Who measures chaos and order if no humans exist?" Animals who experience a meaningless sense of awe we they discover a beautiful life giving spring after days of starvation & struggle. If we wanna go back before life existed, well we're basically rocks ourselves. There's a nothing (chaos) in space until there is, and those things interact with each other using energies such as gravity, light, kinetic force, magnetism & reactions. Much of these forces such as energy have positive & negative energies which when married to each other produce effects (such as a pull, a burn/boil or a freeze, etc).

[Wodens_Apprentice]

I invest my belief rites into English mythology (Woden is the West Germanic Odin) but I see even mythology as each ethnic groups own collective way of attempting to connect with the universes "life" for instance Ymir [sometimes represented as a bull] might be the body of our universe but Odin, who sacrifices him similarly to Mithras slaying the Bull to create the universe, is a representative of the soul. Which is why Odin is a wise god/wizard & his own sacrifice leads him to develop rune letters which assist in him 'programming' the universe.
I've noticed many myths around the world are effectively telling the same story, but the roles of the various deities reflect the social roles & ranks of the people who believe in it (which is a whole new massive topic).
When I compare myth to science I don't feel contradicted and I find many similarities between ancient & modern understanding profound, such as lightning being associated with the establishment of life (I left another comment recently in a similar topic I had about this).
I've had experiences that I found extraordinary. Yet if extraordinary things could be rationalised, science would've detected it by now. Yet they also seem kind of common.
Because our brains is all we really have to perceive the world, I don't think anyone really understands the end question for why behind everything. Scientists often feel satisfied with just a mathematical theory/answer.

[Kaneki05]

@Wodens_Apprentice Other animals don't measure chaos or order, they measure habits and patterns which to us humans maybe perceived as a form of order but that's the thing we're the ones measuring that. You could maybe stretch other animals measure it unknowingly but it's not the same as it being reality. Again it's the perception of that living thing.

Honestly it sounds like you think of contradictions in science because you aren't understanding it, as you equate something must mean the other thing is true, aka a lot of fallacy's. An example would be 'if structure exists must mean order exists.' would you agree with this? If so then yeah that's proof as it's a fallacy.
And thus religion, religion loves to do this making connections that don't exist. And to be clear this is me simplifying it.

But to be more direct if you believe in such ideals of god or gods to whatever belief you may alike to you aren't going to understand for many reasons with the most important one being your own will. Or to be more accurate lack of it but let's keep it simple.
Your will is inclined to your position as so is mine, a fundamental difference is our own awareness of it also different need and want. If one is less aware and wants more for a satisfying answer they'll not change their position no matter what is told them.

[Wodens_Apprentice]

"Other animals don't measure chaos or order, they measure habits and patterns which to us humans maybe perceived as a form of order"
They absolutely perceive order and chaos. Infact that's what habits and pattern recognition adjust to. Like humans animals do actually have rationale to a lesser degree. Humans are uniquely intelligent so we just don't need to depend on instinct as much to survive.
Animals become scared when they associate certain things like faces with danger, they can become depressed, they often fail in mating and end up gettting cucked. The only reason why Cats chose to live with us is to enjoy our order & get away from nature's chaos.
In a way what order and chaos really represent could be two things. The expected and the unexpected, or on a more watered down level even just pattern recognition itself. I think a better way for me to frame it is by comparing it to the binary threads containing 1's (truth, light and order), and 0's (deception, a lack of anything and chaos) on a computer.
"Honestly it sounds like you think of contradictions in science because you aren't understanding it," what exactly does the scientist understand that I don't? You always find that all experts in their field don't really know what they're talking about if you deconstruct everything they tell you when you keep asking why. It always ends in theory and scientists theories seem to reflect a lot of ideas within religion itself because modern people aren't particularly smarter than our ancestors (infact technology is making us depend on our brains less).

[Wodens_Apprentice]

" An example would be 'if structure exists must mean order exists.' would you agree with this? If so then yeah that's proof as it's a fallacy." Why is it though? If a meteor is not a structure then what is? Does a structure necessarily have to be manmade?

[Wodens_Apprentice]

"And thus religion, religion loves to do this making connections that don't exist." You could make that argument with Einsteins theory that everything is relative. Modern science is truly a religion itself with its own superstitions that people have to depend on because it gives a sense of structure to trying to measure the world. But even if scientific theories are correct they still never end up giving us the reason why we exist to begin with beyound something like a Big Bang theory which still tells us nothing.
A good example of mythology mirroring science is in Germanic mythology Iring uses a reality splitting sword to tear open a gap which ended up becoming the Milky Way (that they called Iring's gap). When I hear talk about black holes all of my life then discover things such as this, and ideas like life coming from lightning, water & sky itself turning out to be proven by science (concentrated oxygen, water and lightning creates algae) I find this to be a profound experience that our ancestors must've known more then we give them credit for without them having to be visited by aliens or whatever.
" they'll not change their position no matter what is told them"
Spoken like someone just used to dealing with Christians who take their belief from books rather than oral tradition & poetry. Paganism is a different system where your Gods can be terrifying, good people end up in hell because hell represents death itself. But there is life to come, especially if you complete life's mission which is to breed so your people will carry on your legacy & carry within them the fabric that made your soul what it is.
In Germanic mythology in hell, some people rest peacefully whereas others are tortured by soul extracting worms.

[Wodens_Apprentice]

Once you reach the hot spring Hvergelmir that sustains the universal tree (the pattern of splitting branches you find in veins, cracks, rivers and even rock formations) you get boiled to sustain this tree which acts as a pillar to Heaven (constantly in myth trees are pillars for the sky and trees so provide us breathable air).
In Germanic mythology Bifrost is a bridge that goes from the spirit world (Hell) straight to Heaven, as if suggesting that your spiritual energy has to enter hell to reach heaven. This theme is observable in many other religions such as other Paganism, Christianity (Jesus' descent into hell) & Buddhism (learning to resist temptation through actively facing up against it) aswell.
If some people see science/maths as rationality & light itself, then wouldn't that explain to you why certain religions & religious groups were the main people promoting it throughout history? Religion isn't just a mechanic someone sat down and invented to control people like atheists assume it is while lacking evidence.

[Wodens_Apprentice]

In my long wall of autism I forgot to mention that I believe that the rip in reality is the black hole and the myth even implies an existence outside our own.
That sounds like what Scientists also believe in. If science reflects our rational side of our brain then culture/religion (Used to be the same thing before Abrahamism & Buddhism. Culture contains the word Cult inside) is really just our imagination talking. But I think our imagination absolutely is telling us a reality when you read between the lines & that's why it's worth studying. Simply look into each mythology (I'd start with your own cultures origins), compare them to the next you study and it'll give you some very profound insights.
You may continue to be an Atheist doing so. Some Ancient Greek & Roman (Germanic too) philosophers had ideas that now look like atheism/agnosticism. They could still have a heroic worldview (like Nietzsche) and partake in the social festivals that makes life worth living.
Because all of that is tied to Christianity in the west now, that is very hard.

[Kaneki05]

Nope animals do not, everything you just said has nothing to with measuring chaos and order you just seem to think it does. Again equating things that aren't related and making more fallacy's.
If the ground is wet it must be raining... logic.
If an animal perceives a pattern it must be measuring chaos and order, if animal does anything of those you said it must be measuring it, if it's unexpected it must be chaos. It's very incorrect.
You say a lot but really it all boils down to you not understanding this.
False mutual exclusivity even more so with something subjective.

I don't know how to make you understand this and the point you'll reply with will most likely result in my response repeating itself. I hope one day you get it but otherwise I'm not really sure what else to say.

[FreyaRed]

Chaos is the default state of universe, so needs order an action.
Ergo: Chaos will exist without order but order can only exist if there is chaos that can be ordered.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

In the sense that neither would exist without the presence of the other, sure.

[OneViewpoint]

In the sense that each is a reference point for the other, yes. If there were entropy to the point that everything were uniform, chaos and order would cease to have meaning. In perfect order there is no chaos. In perfect chaos there is no order.

What are the ends of a scale that only has a middle. Say everything is a 50, you don't need 0 or 100 to describe anything. But if you can measure order and it's sometimes a 3 and sometimes a 95, now you can describe one state relative to another.

[Nik1hil]

True..

Order is a State of equilibrium but Something that needs to attain equilibrium needs a capacity to change!..

That potential for Change is defination of Chaos Itself!

In DharmaShastra/Book-of-Order it clearly explains this concept that Free Will is Given to Nature and Change is part of that free will.. It's the root Cause of Chaos (Adharma) in the nature.

If you cannot embrace Chaos don't ask for freedom & Free will!. You cannot establish an Orderly/Dharmic society without Crushing Free will of People!

[cranberrycattoystory]

That's true. But both of those things are in reality, a definition of an observed phenomenon in nature. And, yeah that applies to human society and politics, as well as the natural science, or any other field of study too. This applies to real life as well. When there's too much order, life would be too predictable and rigid, and people would get desperate to get away from it. When there's too much chaos, life would feel unsafe and confusing to navigate, and people would seek out a definite routine... Hate to have to sound like a broken record, but people should try to find a balance between both the ideals and conceptions...

[NathanDavis]

in principle, I would agree... for they are nothing at all without the other, and effectively complete each other in absence and yet confirm one another in presence, lol

and so... in that sense, they can co-exist at the same time... in, balance (sort of, lol)

[RavVid]

Entropy suggests the universe becomes more disordered but there are degress of disorder. Ice is somewhat ordered but melts into water which is more disordered and the evaporates into water vapor which is more disordered again.

So I think there is only disorder but some disorder is more disordered than other disorders.

[HawkPerception]

If order is the only thing that exists, then it becomes a neutral state. Same as chaos. They are like yin and yang. They're 2 sides of the same coin. You cannot have order if you don't observe chaos anywhere else.

[Purpleronnie]

Broadly speaking ‘yes’ , they are principles that define each other


It’s the same reason a clean desk means nothing unless mess is possible… otherwise it’s just a table 🤓

[AyChingao]

Concur. In the absence of both there is only a constant norm, just as you must have the dark to percieve the light, and there is no silence without sound.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Disagree.

Preemptively.

On a macro scale, I kind of suspect the universe to be only about order, and chaos could be the name we give to an order we don't fully comprehend yet.

[Glitcherydoo]

Order is always the first step.

for example, because I clean as I go… I don’t have to spend any time during the weekend “cleaning my house“ because it is always ready every time, every day. When the sunsets there are no dirty dishes in my sink… Ever. When I flush the toilet I clean the toilet before the thing fills up again. I keep a brillo pad in my shower and as I clean myself, I clean my shower every day.

lifestyle…order…clean and ready

[BCRanger10]

Agreed. The reality of the one indicates the reality of the other.

[Shiprex]

Entropy is a scientifically shown outcome of the universe. It will always tend toward chaos because of the laws of thermodynamics

[FunkyMonkee]

How do you know what one is if you've never had the other?

[Likes2drive]

I agree, it’s like you need chaos to keep things interesting, it was also the name of the bad guys in the show Get Smart

[Still-alive]

pretty much. its like a lot of other things in life, we need one to differentiate it from the other.

[TonyMetal___86]

If there is order than there is no chaos and if there is chaos than there is no order...

[Smegskull]

They require each other to be defined however they can exist absent of each other.

[najekim]

Both, because sometimes there is chaos in order and order in the chaos.

[Godihateyou]

Disagree probably the dumbest sentence I've ever read in my life

[Kingofkings1992]

Not exactly. What you mean is that there's a balance to everything. That is true

[exitseven]

disagree- chaos and order can coexist.

[sage2021]

I don't have chaos so everything is in order.

[strateguy632]

no. 100% chaos is possible

[AviatorTom]

Agree. Without evil, there can be no good.

[slatyb]

That's basically meaningless.

[Massageman]

two points on a continuum.

[Ariesman81Nshiiit]

The duality of nature.

[loveslongnails]

Mostly agree with Oscar Wilde on this one.

[Xawyx-2]

We can always have balance ;)

[RedInnocent69]

It is the metric we use to judge

[msc545]

Sounds catchy, but I don't think it's true.

[Dargil]

I do not.

[Cidknee]

Yeah, laws!

[AgentG111]

Agreed

[Bykurs10]

Chaos theory