What's your stance on electric vs hybrid vehicles?

[Whatthefluff]

I've heard criticisms that electric vehicles' lithium batteries may actually be worse for the environment to use as a standard compared to gas vehicles.
I myself drive gas-only like most, but think hybrids are awesome and would hope to get one in the future. Electric vehicles seem to be really more expensive. Even if it is standardized and lowers price due to demand, is it worth it?

[Screenwriter]

There is a problem with recycling or not recycling lithium batteries. But the fact that electric vehicles do not belch greenhouse gases into the air while in use might offset the problem with battery disposal.

The biggest problem with electric vehicles is cost. They are too expensive for people at the bottom end of the spectrum to afford. I'm middle class and I can't afford a $30,000+ car. In fact, I've never owned a car that cost more than $9,000 dollars.

This is a GIANT issue. Poor and lower middle-class people cannot hump the price of electric vehicles. They can't afford hybrids either. It's not only the price tag, maintenance on such vehicles is equally high. A friend had to replace a battery on his hybrid. It cost $1500. There are two on his car. His warranty was expired.

As for electric-only vehicles: The infrastructure isn't in place to support them. To have such a vehicle, you'd need to install a charging station at your home so your car is fully charged overnight.

In addition, there need to be FAST-charging stations all over the country: at traditional filling stations, where there would be a charge for "filling up" with a charge. And I say "fast" charge because someone on the highway trying to get from Atlanta to New Orleans, doesn't have time to get off the road for two hours to fully charge their car. There needs to be some kind of way to partially charge a car: say to "half" full, in five to 10 minutes. Completely full in double that time. This, however, would require that a car be at a charging station for some time.

What if you pull up to a charging station and it's full and your battery is nearly empty?
Somewhat problematic.

But there has to be a gas-car buyout. We have to rid the road of ALL gas vehicles, except, for the present moment, trains and truck. Eventually trucks and trains will also be fully electric, but since they are high-powered vehicles, this will take longer.

The buyout is also problematic. People who cannot afford high-priced electric vehicles or home charging stations, need aid to move up to an electric vehicle. AND there will have to be more public transportation to aid those who will not be able to buy an electric vehicle even with the buyouts that'd be offered.

It's a complex issue that will take loads of money on all levels. And some suffering.

[ObscuredBeyond]

This was the real reason why Biden fouling up the Trump peace deal with the Taliban was so grievous. Yes, it was an abomination in that it led to the immediate takeover of Afghanistan, lending to our 20 years of war with the Taliban being meaningless. Yes, it was vile how many women were then immediately raped, with their children trafficked, by said Taliban.

But it got worse: Biden got kickbacks from China to do what he did. Because China made a trade deal with the Taliban. In exchange for getting to gang rape the women of Afghanistan anew, the Taliban let China gain control of the world's largest source of lithium.

So now, China decides how that lithium is mined. So we're not only destroying the environment faster by letting China mine for lithium; but we're also propping up the CCP; an organization that can't suffer enough agony and die a brutal enough death, for all its innumerable crimes against humanity!

Worse: China not only controls the lithium, but also the way that the parts are made for hybrid cars. Which means they can also regulate the imports and exports of parts needed for hybrid cars.

Ergo, if you have some part on your hybrid car break down, you're now going to pay 8 times as much money to get it serviced or replaced, as opposed to an all-gas vehicle of equivalent build!

This, after the Crooked Rainbow and the dirtbag Epstein-affiliated Obamas and Bidens decided they hated Russia over not letting the Pussy Rioters diddle kids. Russia put those rat bastards in prison where they belong, so the DNC got vindictive, and pretty much made Russia the enemy. And then tag-teamed their Black Rock buddies and their Squid Game-like satanic cults to put pressure on American corporations to start making anti-Russia hate propaganda. Such as that awful Animaniacs reboot. And making EA and Maxis double and even triple down on making The Sim "moar gay," just to spit at Russia for giving the game an 18+ rating over it already being over-gayed.

Without Russian oil, and with Saudi oil strictly regulated, the sensible thing to do is harvest American oil. But nooooo... the spotted owl, or some shit! EPA, courts, executive orders, all shutting down domestic supply, by hook or by crook; due process and constitutional limits on power be damned! Like those degenerates really care!

So now, it's almost sensible to buy a horse and buggy, and go Amish. That is, until they inevitably violate peace terms with the Amish, and start a Holocaust against them for being anti-vax.

The short answer is the bring back public gallows, and annihilate the entire Democrat Party, along with any treasonous Republicans. End the partisan model entirely, and go back to doing homework on your candidates. And when they make a promise, make them illustrate the logistics of how they intend this promise to work. And make them explain who they might hurt along the way, so everyone can analyze the risk-benefit ratio before voting for ANYTHING!

Also, make it a capital crime for the health department to interfere with the work of election workers, as they did in Michigan in 2020! Witchmer is basically a Far Cry villain at this point, but lacking the depth and charisma of one. Start an international manhunt on anyone involved with Dominion! Make them more hunted than El Chapo ever was! Dismantle the Vatican, if we have to!

[DaveJord]

So I am a fleet manger, so order and replace vehicles and this a debate right now. Because sticker prices on electric vehicles really eliminate any cost advantage. You're have to drive the vehicle for 6 to 8 years depending on your average annual milage to make up the difference. But by then your looking at replacing vehicle and how well would a electriccar retain is trade in resellvalue? Then you got the logistics of maintaining the vehicle charge and paying for the charging station and installation... again more upfront costs.

Hybrid are almost just as bad if not worse. Because hybrids are almost just as expensive as electrics but your not getting the same milage, so they're actually more expensive in the long run... but the mileage is improved and up front costs are less.

Gas cars its hard to say because there's no telling where gas prices are going next. So electric are becoming more attractive.

So for my company we go electric on the sedans and compact SUVs, and gas on the trucks. We do not buy hybrids because they are least cost effective. Yes hybrids are better on the environment but its about dollars and cents.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Yes, lithium extraction is bad for the planet.

However, market share drives innovation. The more people interested in EVs - especially for sustainability reasons - the more cleaner and less expensive alternatives become.

There's already concept cars running on combinations of solar, battery, and even wind power. They're hardly production ready, but the more opportunity there is in the market (aka the more people want EVs and fossil fuel alternatives), the faster the tech will be produced.

But you're right in a way - switching from one finite resource (oil) to another (lithium), isn't going to save us.

But shifting AWAY from fossil fuel isn't just about finding alternatives to gas powered cars. It's about stopping climate change before it becomes too late to do anything about.

The Earth doesn't really care about human economics and technology. If we fuck around enough - which Boomers did for us, mostly - we WILL end up in an endless and worsening spiral of ecological disaster. This isn't new info - this is stuff scientists warned about in the 1970s.

I think that the many governments around the world mandating only EVs be produced and sold first-hand in their countries by 2030 are on the right track.

We need to slow down the way we're producing carbon (aka burning fossil fuels) if we're going to have a hope at saving ourselves.

Switching, even with the dangers of lithium extraction, can give us more time to work on alternative solutions.

Personally, I'm holding out hope for Canada's Project Arrow EV. It's aiming to be the first Canadian-sourced and manufactured EV, which would help me sleep at night knowing I'm not sleeping over a car Musk probably killed ten orphans for in a lithium mine.

For me, giving up and reverting to fossil fuel because "I'm scared the alternative isn't perfect" is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It doesn't help anything. Except the oil barons. And they don't need any more money.

They're still posting massive, record breaking profits even though their actual cost of purchasing and refining the crude oil has dropped back down to aimilar to pre-Ukraine war. They don't need to overcharge at the pumps, they just want to and can get away with it.

I'm saving up to buy an EV. Second hand ideally, but I'll buy what I can find and what I like. I prefer paying cash, but I'm willing to get an EV on financing - if it doesn't end up saving the world, we'll all probably be dead before it comes time to collect on loans.

[llorando]

Current battery technology makes them bad for the environment. Some people don't realize, the production of batteries for EV's can be at times worse for the environment as they require the mining of precious metals/minerals such as cobalt and lithium. Instead of focusing heavily EV's, we should be focused on renewable bio fuels that can be used in current internal combustion engines. Better for the environment to reuse something than to replace it.

[abc3643]

Yes electric cars are worth it. For one thing, you never have to worry about the price of gas again.
But, the Wall Street Journal did an analysis and, yes, electric cars are better for the environment and that includes the batteries...

If you cannot read this article, let me know. I have a subscription to the WSJ although I do not think this article is behind a paywall...
=======
TITLE: Are Electric Cars Really Better for the Environment?
SUBTITLE: EVs produce fewer emissions overall than their gas-powered counterparts, but there are caveats
By Russell Gold, Jessica Kuronen and Elbert Wang
Published March 22, 2021 at 10:00 a. m. ET
...
"No matter what kind of engines they run on, cars add to greenhouse gas emissions. But the data show that switching from gas to electric vehicles will make a huge impact.
"
www.wsj.com/.../?mod=hp_lead_pos5

[Chazmatazz269]

Let’s clear up on thing to start, nobody gives a shit about the effects of our behavior on the environment… NOBODY. There’s a lot of lip service, literally no person in all of western civilization is even doing as much as they possibly can, let alone bursting through boundaries for the cause of environmentalism. Because of that simple fact, it won’t ever take effect widespread until it’s more affordable to be green than to not. Because of that simple fact, no reasonably effective green solutions will ever become prominent where capitalism rules, which is almost everywhere. Most don’t realize there is actually one nation on the planet with a negative carbon footprint. The blueprint is already drawn. It’s no secret though. Anyone can find information on Bhutan, including a documentary about what they’re doing and how they’re doing it. But if it’s not easier and cheaper than what we’re already doing, nobody in any western nation will even attempt to meet the standard. It absolutely blows my mind that people are still talking about this issue at all. It’s purely and simply accusatory conjecture, and to that point essentially hypocrisy. “I’m ‘better’ than you because i do more than you.” Am i doing everything i can? Let’s not talk about me because i’m still doing more than “them”. Ell oh ell!
I moved to California two and a half years ago. One of three places looked at very closely for leading edge progressive values. By no uncertain terms, Michigan, a swing state, outperforms California in every conceivable way for environmental action. California is pure, unadulterated lip service on environmentalism with zero observable action, let alone results. NOBODY cares. So why talk about it?

[Minerate]

My biggest concern is the longevity of the car and battery, specifically in EV only. What will be the longest livespan for these cars? Can we get some that have a 10-25 year life? Will "Battery Sizing" or "Remodeling" be an issue in an effort to promote newer cars or will this be more standardized? Not to mention battery disposal, degradation rates over time (which we've seen from tech)... just a lot that concerns that only time and first adopters can start vouching out.

Hybrids seem to be the most pragmatic from my perspective and likely would be the way I move for a new car, especially if it's more EV focused vs. gas. Having 2 systems is reassuring, especially on those longer or more isolated trips through the heart of the midwest, where the weather can be harsher and charging stations aren't as readily available vs. the coasts or you just don't have the time to sit and charge for 20+ minutes. (Though they have made a lot progress over the years).

As much as people may dislike gasoline or diesel powered cars, it's hard to deny their longevity if cared for properly. The fact that cars from 50+ years ago are still drivable and in good condition stays wonders, especially considering they're pretty common/easy to work on without specialized training.

[Antman7119]

Truthfully electric is the way to go. Environmentally they are not worse for environment because assuming the batteries are recycled properly. It’s a whole car so when it’s time comes to change the dealer or mechanic will have to dispose of it correctly unlike phones that people just toss in trash when years old and broken. Also cost may be more upfront for electric because it’s still relatively new tech and high demand but over all price saving on gas is huge especially If your drive a lot. Lastly depending on vehicle you get. You can get a tax rebate that usually on range up to $7500. This only applies to the first 250,000 electric vehicles a manufacture sells so Tesla is out of that rebate but other makes still offer it. Also many states (if not all, not sure if it’s federal yet) will not be able to sell new gas vehicles after 2035. This is some time away but goes to show that has cars are indeed becoming obsolete. Less range, more emissions, more costly repairs/ issues. I just purchased a new BMW suv this past week solely cause lease was up and Tesla order was about 4 months before delivery and I couldn’t wait. I’m still planning on ordering the Tesla this fall to make switch to electric since a tank of gas is now running about $100 and I have some co workers and friends spending $20 worth electricity a month on their cars.

[Slartybartfast]

If everyone who drove them bought a V8 pickup instead , gas would be $20 a gallon and we would have rationing like when opec formed.

OPEC has been screwing the USA my entire life , big oil is the #1 enemy of freedom, how many multi trillion $ wars fir oil do we need to fight? Our entire national debt can be attributed to oil. Without that debt we could have universal healthcare, high speed trains , beautiful infrastructure. Instead we spend decades building infrastructure in iraq and Afghanistan instead of in our own country.

Iran would be a free and prosperous democracy if it wasn't for oil companies manipulation of our government to interfere with a democratic election to control the oil and it backfired.

[Aerissa_Jade]

Hybrids F250/F350 would be awesome, especially if they can be like trains. Generate electricity with a diesel engine, then run on electricity.

Far as I know right now, there isn't a hybrid pickup that can tow 28,000 pounds... but I haven't been in the market either.

Electric is bad though, hardly any charging stations and those around people park their fossil fuel vehicle in, or there is so many anti electric people here they walk by and unplug them a lot.

They also have such short range, no way to drive 500 miles a day without stopping.

Hybrids would at least be able to do that.

[hahahmm]

Overall electric cars aren't worth it yet. And while the tech for electric is improving so is the tech for gas engines so now they've developed a gas engine the size of your hand that's more powerful than any older car engine and uses less gas. The real deciding factor will be politics/laws. If the government bans gas cars then that will force gas stations and traditional car dealers out of business so we'll see what happens.

If I was forced to go electric I would build my own electric car rather than buy a factory one.

[Wsx2wsx2ws]

The Aptera is coming out hopefully soon. Its to be priced at 25K and have a 1000 mile range. Charges on its own via built in solar.
Also the battery tech is catching up. The ICE engine had 100 years of tech and development. EVs have had what 30 at best. But they killed it in the 90s. Except they where the first cars and the one everyone wanted. But they force the stinky hated ICE cars on everyone. So they also killed it in the 1828 models too.

So back to batteries they are coming out with NaIon batteries that is Sodium Ion batteries. Also the Graphene batteries have some crazy interesting properties. So the car can stay the same and run of a better battery. ICE can not make the same claim. Once the internal combustion is set to a certain fuel it is not easy to change it.

[Static_In_The_Attic]

Another electric vehicle up in flames.

I always say if it’s not broken don’t fix it & as for me I have a gas vehicle & although gas prices are killers I plan on keep it. As for electric vehicles they seem nice but I don’t think the world is ready for them. As for hybrids my friend has one & if the world is going to slowly switch over I think hybrids are the way to go.

[Moose304]

The primary problem at least in the US with electric vehicles is the national grid can't handle the loads. This goes all the way back to the generating facilities all the way to the transmission capacity. I will state NOW, that I have no issues with electric vehicles. However, right now and for the foreseeable future, there are two problems. First, with over 60% of all power generated being carbon-based. You are just trading one carbon-based fuel with another one. Then we have the capacity issue. As more and more electric vehicles get added to the US, you can expect more and more brown and out-and-out blackouts. Blaming the power companies will not solve this.

[Moose304]

I see someone did not like my comment! Electrical power transmission systems is what I do. I design and help build them all over the world. I know the US Power grid like the back of my hand. There is some limited extra capacity in 2022, but not that much. To design, plan for and to build a power plant can't be done overnight! Electrical power does NOT just appear out of nowhere. This is almost like a highway. By the time it gets built the project is already obsolete. If the US want's to go electrical then we are going to have to build power plants and power transmission systems. To get the US grid in shape to handle all this load will take somewhere between 2 to 4 TRILLION bucks. Get ready for the average power bill to be $400 to $1,000 EXTRA within 10 years until these projects get finished and online! Guess who pays that bill? YOU AND I!

[Fireguy17]

If I had 2 cars, I would have 1 car that I could road trip with, hybrids get great milage, and an electric one to use running errands.
You would never really recoup the cost of the all electric car.
For couples where 1 works close to home it would be ok.
But for now the hybrids seem to have things worked out better, less issues than the all electric.
Less fires.
A couple people at work have primus, and they are high milage without issues.
One just got rid of 1 of theirs at about 250,000 miles.
It finally crapped out.

[exitseven]

There has to be a major upgrade to the power grid and the batteries have to be more refined. Charging time has to be reduced and range has to be increased. There must be some realistic plan to recycle the batteries after they were out. Charging 1500 dollars to recycle a battery will only result in batteries being dumped by the side of the road.
After all this happens will it be more environmentally friendly than IC engines?
I would love to see electric vehicles but I have doubts about the feasibility of them.

[MysticDevice]

Indeed the batteries a far worse for the environment than gas. The lithium mining process it energy intensive, and all the mining equipment runs on fuel, the transport of the raw materials uses fuel, the manufacturing process uses fuel, and the charging of the EV itself uses fuel. (The grid runs on coal, oil, and gas)

I feel like the whole "electric car" thing is just a giant scam. Then in 10 years, give or take, the batteries chemicals break down and they don't hold a real charge anymore. Then you have to buy a new battery or a new car and the old batteries will start piling up cause there's no good way to recycle them.

I do think hybrids are a better option I just personally don't like them. Too many components that can go wrong.

Obviously fuel isn't good for the environment either but it's energy density makes it the best option at the moment.

[Anonymous]

I drive a hybrid and I love it. If I’m not going far, I can drive in EV mode and save gas. I think electric vehicles are the wave of the future but lithium batteries need to be replaced with something more eco friendly. Lithium is toxic to mine and we’re going to need an alternate battery that can be recycled more easily as well. The nation also needs to continue to transition away from coal fired power plants for all of this to make sense on a large scale. We’re probably a decade away from realistically making this transition. The technology and infrastructure isn’t quite there yet but there’s no question we need to get away from fossil fuels. It’s killing the planet.

[Anonymous]

They are the pinnacle of human pollution and consumer culture; only the rich can afford to buy and maintain them, and instead if fixing parts like conventional cars they just replace the entire unit and bin the old one... Which leads to more waste.

As an added bonus, imagine all the pollution it requires to extract the battery components and acids - its more than a conventional car's. Even after all that, you'll be charging with fossil fuel electricity...

Electric may be the way, but Lithium is not the future. We need some kind of hydroelectric turbine hybrid, though hydrogen supposedly has refinement and practicality problems.

A car without a generator will always be inferior, especially if going rural is the future.

[Jupiter1]

At least, with hybrids, the gasoline engine can be back up to the electric motor and, vice versa, the electric motor can be back up to the gasoline engine.

I do like the incredible torque provided by a sleek Tesla S (Plaid or not) for the best acceleration performances on the planet. Plus, it's so peacefully quite despite its impressive performance.

I'll stick with a hybrid, for now, since I can't afford to stick around waiting for an electric vehicle to get enough charge to carry on with my drive.

[Smashingdoozy]

People saying they're actually bad are falling for the myths.

Overall even including the manufacturing they are better than new gas cars. About the batteries, gotta remember that gas cars have em too so the need for battery recycling isn't strictly an electric car problem. Battery recycling does happen and is only going to improve with time.

[skeetskeetskeet]

Here's the thing with tesla and other electrics... they aren't the answer for the Long run.. but they are the stepping stone that has to be until some kind of new battery technology shows up whatever it may be... before tesla no company was really doing shit with full electric.. not on any scale big enough to warrant coast to coast charging stations and all the other shit that needs to be in place before electrics go mainstream.. lithium battery's aren't the future but after tesla built a shit ton of them now every car maker has a version which will push the technology quicker

[Anonymous]

9 times out of 10 hybrids are not only just as bad as regular non hybrid cars, they are worse and cost way more when broken.

For example, my uncle owned a GMC Yukon hybrid, the transmission went out. It was over 20k to fix. The non hybrid version was about 3500 including labor to replace. Oh and the hybrid version of that car got literally 2mpg better than the non hybrid.

And electric cars aren't really that much better. Especially based on how they manufacture the batteries.

What really pussies me off are these idiotic environmental fanatics who basically want to make it impossible for those of us that can't afford 100k for an electric car to fucking drive..