Fairness Destroys Relationships

[ak666]

Whenever two parties, eager to form and maintain a strong alliance, seek the gavel of justice, their alliance is typically doomed.

Demanding fairness is one of the most destructive forces in a relationship between two parties.

I have seen it time and time again in my own youthful past, between quarreling lovers drifting apart, and among the brokenhearted. I have even seen this tendency between couples much older than me.

This applies for two parties of any sort: a couple of lovers, two friends, two siblings, a pair of colleagues, two allied nations.

It is hopelessly elusive to seek perfect fairness in these contexts for a simple reason:

The perception of fairness is subjective.

Subjectivity

When two parties form a list of grievances about their relationship and what they perceive as unfair treatment, their lists are never going to match. This is the key problem.

If they tend try to set things straight, they are never going to make things straight. In doing so, one party is going to do things that the other party perceives as unfair. The other party then rectifies this by doing something that the first party perceives as unfair, and on and on it goes until they practically despise each other.

Mediators

When there are three parties involved in this picture instead of two, one can serve as a mediator. This third party can then listen to the cases made by both parties and pass judgement. Yet this is already far, far from an ideal situation between two parties who care about each other.

Accepting the judgement is going to require significant compromises and will be biased by the effectiveness of the presentation of both parties and also any biases the mediator will have.

The Question

My recommendation for two parties who care about each other is to try to solve things among yourselves, and also to ask ourselves a different question if we perceive unfair treatment.

Wrong Question: "How do I make things fair between us?"
Right Question: "How do I make things better between us?"

Asking ourselves the right question and communicating accordingly will often strengthen relationships. The wrong question will often weaken or outright destroy relationships.

For lovers especially, toss aside that figurative gavel of justice. If you're unhappy but want to stay together, focus on what you need to do to improve the relationship, not to make it fair.

Fairness is a negative concept for relationships.
Improvement is a positive concept for relationships.

[samhradh_leannan]

I agree that an excessive emphasis on fairness is not healthy for relationships, because it can be subjective and because different people have different priorities and needs. But there are times when fairness is called for. Double standards can be very problematic in relationships and that's where fairness needs to step in.

[ak666]

I'm actually promoting fairness in terms of outcome, but not through that mindset. The problem with a justice-oriented mindset is that it seeks to deal out sentences and punishments to try to achieve some level of fairness. When couples start doing this, their relationship starts spiraling downward and downward.

The "improvement" mindset seeks a fairer outcome cooperatively and applying a positive mindset with careful consideration of choosing actions designed to bring about a fairer outcome. It encompasses qualities like forgiveness, compromise, and peaceful negotiation -- qualities that don't exist when the focus is entirely on justice.

[samhradh_leannan]

But there may be times when openly and directly working towards fairness does work, if it is an objectively unfair situation.

[ak666]

As an example, I've seen questions even on GaG where someone discussed their partner not putting in the desired level of effort sexually, like a female whose partner didn't spend enough time in foreplay. So to punish him she was thinking about ceasing to have sex with them.

It surprised me but a lot of answers to that question suggested that as an appropriate course of action. That's a "justice" mindset. It's just trying to dish out punishments with no regard for the consequences, just exchanging suffering for suffering.

And whenever people apply that kind of approach as a solution to perceived unfairness, the relationship is bound to get worse.

[ak666]

>> But there may be times when openly and directly working towards fairness does work, if it is an objectively unfair situation.

In that case it would still be in the realm of "improvement". If it has been thought out and the rationality is that this course of action will make things better, then even if it coincidentally happens to be a just course of action, the design of it is intended to bring about positive change.

With the previous example, my issue with the suggestion to stop having sex with him was not the course of action. It was the mindset behind it. There was no suggestion that this was planned out as a way to improve their sexual relationship. Instead the thinking behind it was like, "Since he doesn't spend much time on foreplay, he deserves to be punished by being deprived of sex."

If the mindset was, "I believe that depriving him of sex for a period will make him try harder in bed later on", that's an improvement mindset... same course of action, but positive mindset.

[samhradh_leannan]

But that situation was never really about fairness. It was a problem for the relationship, but not something that was technically "unfair". A situation like that where someone is unhappy with something and then tries to dole out a punishment has to do with justice, as you put it, but has little to do with fairness in the first place. The type of situation that I'm talking about is a case where, for example, someone in a relationship wants to watch porn but doesn't want their partner to watch it. Something where the problem itself is objectively unfair.

[samhradh_leannan]

But outside of situations like that, you're right. Fairness should not be the point.

[ak666]

It's where that subjectivity creeps in for that case, though the basis was still a subjective perception of unfair treatment.

>> The type of situation that I'm talking about is a case where, for example, someone in a relationship wants to watch porn but doesn't want their partner to watch it. Something where the problem itself is objectively unfair.

Even then you can take an isolated case like that and broaden it to virtually infinite number of variables the partners are subjectively taking into account to somehow justify this inequity. It's why I think it's always subjective in the eyes of either of these partners.

It's like if a guy got a bigger and better birthday present for a girl than she did for him, that's "objectively unfair". But the girl could then say she doesn't make as much as he does or she cooks dinner for him or whatever -- and we get back to that whole convoluted mess of negative emotions and broader perceptions of unfairness...

[samhradh_leannan]

Yes, with the gift example, I completely agree. But I don't see how that can be the case with the porn situation. That's objectively unfair in a way that there is no legitimate excuse for (the only excuse would be if BOTH people were genuinely okay with the unfairness, in which case, it would not be an issue.)

[ak666]

But for that example where you can isolate it and show that it's blatantly unfair, the way to fix that to me is still with an improvement mindset. Whatever action either partner takes here should ideally be with the intent of cooperatively improving the situation. Justice just tends to imply "punishment" a lot. Even in this situation, it might require some level of compromise and negotiation for the fairest possible result.

[samhradh_leannan]

If someone is daft enough to think that it's okay for them to restrict their partner's freedom (e. g. to watch porn) in ways that they themselves are not willing to be restricted, then calling them on the obvious and blatant unfairness of the situation is probably the only argument they will listen to.

[samhradh_leannan]

And yes, this is a pretty specific type of scenario, but that kind of thing does happen.

[ak666]

Let's say I'm in that situation. Let's say my wife watches porn but I'm not allowed to watch it.

I'm applying a pure justice-oriented mindset, I would be thinking about what I can do to her to make things even. I don't know, maybe I'll throw away the television so that neither of us can watch it.

If I'm seeking improvement, I might gently talk to her about this, try to work things out, find an even level of footing. All of it is with the thought of how to improve the situation, not to just give her what she deserves. Maybe we can end up watching it together.

[samhradh_leannan]

Asking for fairness in that situation, though, is not necessarily about punishing your partner. Throwing the TV away would obviously be an impulsive, immature, and ultimately ineffective way to approach the problem. But saying to your partner "Hey, I do such and such for you, I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me, it's only fair" is completely within reason. If you need to pull the fairness card in a situation where it truly is justified, I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

[ak666]

>> Throwing the TV away would obviously be an impulsive, immature, and ultimately ineffective way to approach the problem.

That immaturity and impulsiveness was ultimately what I was trying to address with the article. You'd be surprised but I've seen couples 10+ years older than me doing things this immature, and often in response to some unfair treatment.

It's mainly for that demographic of people, the ones who justify that kind of impulsive action where they're trying to fight fire with fire instead of using their brains and choosing water instead.

I also wish I could edit it but I wanted to clarify that I'm actually in promotion of fairer outcomes -- I just believe that will come about through a more mature mindset that stops and thinks, "Is this really going to make things fairer, or is it going to make things worse?" -- such the emphasis on improvement.

[ak666]

Also when couples argue, often it is due to that perceived unfairness. And the ones who escalate and escalate the arguments immaturely (which surprisingly can happen even among much older couples), tend to do so by trying to "set things straight".

At no point in the argument are they asking themselves, "Is this going to make things better between us?" And that failure to ask how to improve the situation is typically why things escalate and escalate out of control.

The first person to ask this question will generally deescalate the argument. It's usually going to be the bigger person willing to absorb a little bit of perceived unfairness and willing to forgive and gently work things out.

It's that mindset I'm promoting, of deescalation, cooperation -- and still as the way to achieve that desired, fairer outcome.

[samhradh_leannan]

Acknowledging unfairness is a very different thing from responding to it in ways that are immature and impulsive. I think that acknowledging unfairness in a truly unfair situation is actually a very important part of getting to the root of the problem and coming to a solution. I think we actually agree but are focusing on different aspects of the situation.

[samhradh_leannan]

I agree that it's important to consider whether something will actually improve the situation, rather than emphasizing total fairness above all else. But acknowledging legitimate unfairness and approaching the subject in a positive, constructive way are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[ak666]

>> But acknowledging legitimate unfairness and approaching the subject in a positive, constructive way are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Absolutely agreed. I hope I didn't imply too strongly that they weren't. What I was hoping to promote was that mature mindset. Acknowledging and determining unfairness is often the first step towards improvement. But a calm mindset seeking improvement will generally do this cooperatively rather than arguing and arguing, for example.

There's a broader topic I see echoed in human behavior though about the focus on "justice". An example is how we look at criminals. Our natural instinct when we find a criminal who has hurt someone is to simply want to hurt them.

I have to then present the unpopular question, "Why?" I'm not against hurting the criminal, but what positive effect is that supposed to have? As long as someone can provide me an answer, it shows me that their thinking is in the right place -- towards improvement, and not merely justice.

[samhradh_leannan]

I agree with that completely.

[ak666]

Cheers and thanks for the exchange. It has me thinking about ways to clarify things if I attempt this subject again. I've always had a tendency to be either be verbose or terse. I've never been able to find the right balance. :-D

[samhradh_leannan]

Everyone's brain works slightly differently so it's hard to make sure that people take things exactly how you mean them. That's why comments and conversations like this are so helpful! :)

[BlueCoyote]

I completely agree with you. While the idea "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" may not function perfectly in a national economy, it is the perfect rule to follow in a long-term relationship. One simple way to illustrate this is by looking at the topic of house chores. Many couples fight about this because both parties find the set-up somehow unfair. However, counting all the things I have done and comparing them to a list of chores my girlfriend has done (or not done) won't achieve anything. It will just make both of us unhappy. Because the smallest difference will trigger me or her to feel treated unfairly. I had to bring out the trash although it's her job? Arrrrgh! Now I expect her to do something for me! And these attempts to make things fair again are in themselves problematic. For example what specific house chores would "equalize" taking out the trash? I might have a different opinion on this than my girlfriend and the whole situation is just bound to end up in a fight.
Instead, I believe people should try to be communists in the truest sense when they're in a relationship. I simply do as much as I can because I love my girl. Maybe one day I feel lazy or exhausted and I just sit on the couch all they long but on another day I would make this up by cleaning her stuff or cooking for her or doing other things I usually don't do. And the "need" part works the same way. I think it's totally okay to ask your partner to go shopping for you or cook for you etc., as long as it doesn't happen on a regular basis and doesn't make your partner feel like you're leeching off of him/her. So yes, I try to put as much into my relationship as I can (depending on the day/situation/personal skills and ability/etc.) and I try to take just as much from my girlfriend as I need and only when I need it.
If both people act this way, the relationship becomes much happier because numbers become less relevant. What's important is not that my partner does exactly the same amount of work as I do. Because maybe I'm simply in a situation where I can do more than her (or not as much). What matters is that both people make a genuine effort.

[redeyemindtricks]

The last two sentences -- yes exactly.

If you took any given day or week as a snippet, then, either my husband or I would prl be doing a significant majority of Stuff That Needs To Be Done around our house. Some weeks, when I have more work, he does just about 100 percent of everything. Other weeks, when I have a more lax workload, I take on the lion's share of it and he chills out in his trademark island style.

Point is, each of us just *instinctively* knows when the other is more put-upon than usual -- or even when the usual shares of stuff would just feel like more than usual for the other -- and we adjust accordingly. And even if one of us is doing a lot more for the moment, we know that it's just *for the moment*.

[BlueCoyote]

@redeyemindtricks And knowing this instinctively is the sign that you're in a very stable relationship :-).

[redeyemindtricks]

It's a *beautiful* rl, yeah. And I suppose "stable" in the sense that it's definitely going to last for a lifetime.

It's NOT "stable", however, in the sense of ever becoming routine or "comfortable" (ughhh). Even after all these years, each of us inspires the other to be our very best -- because there's still always that little voice in the back of our heads, saying, "She/he'll leave you for someone better, if you slip."
And that's the way we want it.

[Idonthaveausername]

Decent concept. If you feel like your relationship isn't fair, then you've been letting something important slide for a long time that should've been addressed before it became a serious problem. Having one person care about a messy kitchen and the other not care at all breeds resentment, and if the side that cares forces the other side to do something about it, then the side who doesn't care resents the other side for making a big deal about it. (My aunt and uncle. She doesn't think it's fair for him to make messes without cleaning it up and he doesn't think it's fair for her to nag him about it because he doesn't nag her when she leaves messes.) Both sides have to care the same amount or accept the other not caring as much for things to work out

This applies to all relationships, not just romantic ones. I had a friend who thought it wasn't fair for me to hang out with my sister every weekend because she wanted to hang out with me. I didn't care what day we hung out, just couldn't do it Saturday. We stopped being friends because she cared too much about when I was available to hang out and I didn't care enough

[ak666]

>> If you feel like your relationship isn't fair, then you've been letting something important slide for a long time that should've been addressed before it became a serious problem

I so much wish I covered this since it's been brought up a bit. Minor conflicts should be deescalated as soon as possible. To seek improvement is ideally sought out by seeking constant minor improvements, and that generally requires constant communication.

Someone used the words, "fair is fair". That almost always implies a cold, maybe even hostile action. Such actions can never improve a relationship, and will typically not set things straight... things become more and more crooked typically applying this kind of approach.

I'm actually in favor of fairer outcomes but I see it as found through cooperatively seeking improvements rather than applying that kind of "fair is fair", "eye for an eye", kind of mindsets which too often work themselves to counter-productive and hostile courses of action.

[Idonthaveausername]

Agreed. If you get cheated on, cheating on your partner is fair, but that kind of fair is a failed relationship

Something I see on this site is someone saying they don't want to get taken advantage of whether it be money, sex, or something else. If you give something to someone because you love them, you should give it to them without expecting anything in return. If they love you back, you'll get a return. Anything less than that is not a relationship. Withholding affections because you fear they won't be returned might be fair, but that's not a healthy relationship

[ak666]

That's a wonderful way to put it.

[ak666]

I might have been overambitious with the article but there was an all-encompassing life philosophy for me there that came rather late in my 20s. When I stopped trying to set the world "straight" and started to just try to make things "better", my whole life improved with it. It changed the entire way I viewed the world. It also made me a little bit more of a realist.

[Idonthaveausername]

Thanks

That's pretty much where I'm at with the world right now. There's an Audioslave song with the lyrics "Don't let them take you down, leave a better world than you found" that really fits with this mentality. There are things in life that are never going to be right or just or fair, but you have to survive them. If you survive them, you have to be the one to put good effort back into the world or else you're just as bad as the things and people trying to break you down

Being a realist is the best way to live life. People give me a lot of flack for not being as positive as they'd like. What they don't understand is that my reali

[Idonthaveausername]

My realistic perspective of the world is as positive as someone with my experiences in life can be. Being realistic during the good times sounds positive, but it's only based on wishes. Being realistic during the bad times is impossible for people who wish. I'm not one to sugar coat things. I'll take being realistic through the good and bad times. At least I won't be disappointed

[ak666]

There's a jolly and optimistic way to be more of a realist as well. At least I found it liberating over my youth when I was so idealistic. In my case the idealism disengaged me from the world to some extent, always focusing too hard on how it should be. Aside from failing to come up with ways to make things better with such a narrow-minded focus, it detached me from the world to some extent. Focusing on improvement instead of just how crooked the world was lead towards acceptance, and from acceptance I was able to better immerse myself in it. It's actually easier to appreciate the beauty of it that way, when you just accept things for what they are instead of how they should be. It can be liberating besides leading to a more productive mindset.

[ak666]

I'm not religious but there's a Christian prayer I find quite wise:

>> God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

A lot of my liberation and ability to stay calm and collected came, in part, from finally beginning to understand the difference.

[Idonthaveausername]

I'm not religious either, but that's a good one. I like that. Sometimes you have to walk away if a situation isn't worth it

There's a time and a place for optimism. I feel like I'm always either in the wrong place or it's the wrong time

[ak666]

I attempted a second MyTake where fairness is simply a sub-topic, relating to this whole mindset revolving around improvement. I'm hoping I did a slightly better job of making a case:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a35067-self-awareness-self-discipline-better-outcomes

[whywouldyou]

I would be willing but it would have to matter to my SO. I wish we could communicate anyway but texting I can't ever get what has trying to say and reading doesn't convert any emotion or feeling. If I raise my voice has done just get mad and walks away. My thing is there are certain things that have to be agreed on or "fair." I have the biggest problem with being with someone who cheats orvis flirting or talking to anyone else. I am not sure he gets that spending time together is important and if I wanted to do everything alone or feel like hesvto uncomfortable or just doesn't want to have any conversation or talk about anything we are definetly doomed. It sucks to feel like the person you love doesn't care that much. I'm not sure how to tell him things I need to.

[ak666]

The communication part is one of the most important but it can be challenging to find a good way, especially with an unwilling partner. For guys it can sometimes help to avoid any style of confrontation -- I generally think a couple is already in a very bad situation if they have to use lines like, "We need to talk", as though talking seriously is something which requires an appointment. Instead just hugging and being affectionate, starting off lighthearted, can sometimes help ease your way into a subject. It's harder for him to shut you out if you are cuddling together, for example, and you're starting off very warm and gentle.

[whywouldyou]

There are certain situations where that's impossible. My boyfriend has slept around and is talking to other women. I knew something was not right but when I asked him he acted like I was stupid or crazy and would be a real a-hole. Now here's the thing I Love this man with every ounce of my being, so I swallowed my pride and I am trying to trust him again. I am not sure he sees how hard it is for me and it is really effecting me. It seems like he has a attitude towards me nonowLike honestly, like he doesn't have to treat me well. If someone is doing something that they wouldn't want done to them to someone they should or say they love that comes with respect if they are disrespecting me, they lose my respect. I understand being softer on things that aren't as serious but certain situations are like giving someone the middle finger when the person flipping you off is way out of line and I am not ever going to cuddle with a snake that wants to slither through every woman's yard. Not happening.

[ak666]

There's some hopeless cases at times and when I apply my thoughts towards criminals, for example, some people think I'm against any harsh form of punishment since my goal is not to simply hurt criminals, not "eye for an eye", but to seek the most effective ways to rehabilitate them into society (not "punishment" for its own sake but more "remedial action") -- applying that "improvement" mindset.

But sometimes there are criminals that are just completely hopeless, or at the very least, completely impractical to expect to function properly in society, and there I'm not against life imprisonment or potentially even the death penalty (whichever seems most appropriate and effective).

Similar to your case, if you see no hope of improvement, I think you still have to pose the question, "How do I make my situation better?" ... and it might be difficult but one of the best courses of action might be to leave him. That's going to be up to you, but my suggestion is to ask these questions.

[redeyemindtricks]

The real problem isn't specifically that people over-focus on "fairness". Rather, the real problem is that people give way too many fucks about way too many completely trivial and inconsequential things.

I mean, just reading through the comments here... Srsly? Things like "taking out the trash" (which takes literally a *maximum* of a minute or two) and "timed minutes of foreplay" actually create significant friction in these people's relationships?

Mah gawd...

I mean... On the one hand, I'm genuinely happy for these people, that their lives have been so smooth and so blessed that those things SEEM LIKE BIG DEALS to them.
On the other hand... Wow... just smh. Can't imagine so much mental energy being thrown away on stupid shit.

The more I hear about other people's relationships, the more I appreciate my own.
<3

[ak666]

Most of the examples here are quite trivial. Typically when I observe relationships falling apart, the list of grievances on both sides will consist of far more serious issues. There's also typically a failure of communication there which causes these grievances to accumulate -- something I wish I remembered to cover in this post.

[ak666]

The way I see it is that this subject goes beyond couples. It can even apply to relationships between nations, siblings, friends, etc. I see so much needless conflict revolving around a perfect desire for justice which excludes concepts like forgiveness and compromise which both require absorbing some share of injustice to move on.

[Anonymous]

What about a situation like I had with someone who ALWAYS forgot my birthday, while I always remembered theirs? I finally decided this was unfair and started "forgetting" theirs too. They got upset with me for that, which makes no sense. If they see remembering birthdays as something important, why can't they be bothered to remember other people's? Maybe the dose of fairness I gave them ended up hurting the friendship. But was I supposed to keep on sending them cards or even gifts every year on their birthday while they consistently ignored my own?

[ak666]

Good example! I can't claim to have perfect answers for every situation but just a mindset to adopt that will allow you to communicate, potentially compromise, and all with the idea to improve the relationship.

For example, it shouldn't take too much thought to realize that if you sought a "justice" route and wanted to get back at this person out of spite by suddenly ceasing to send them cards/gifts, that this will almost certainly not improve things.

So it's easier to answer what not to do. In terms of what to do, that's a bit tougher, but when you're being treated unfairly, I think it's worth communicating -- gently, not with a confrontation -- at least that has worked best for me.

Generally the first thing to do is lose the spite.. the desire to "punish" with no point to it except an "eye for an eye" kind of justice mindset. Even remedial action should be just that, it might take on a firm tone, but you'd do it with the goal to improve the relationship.

[ak666]

Even in the context of punishment. Let's say you want to address unfair treatment towards you. If you seek to punish to simply "get back at a person", to fight fire with fire, so to speak, then there is no thought whatsoever there about how to make things better. When there's no thought about how to make things better, things tend to get worse.

If you choose a punishing route more with the intent and thought behind it that this action seems appropriate to improve things, the end result might not be so different. It might still be firm, maybe even harsh at times, but you've thought it through as a way to improve the relationship. It's not just "getting back at a person". It might fail but at least your thinking is in the right place if you make this effort.

That's the difference in mindset -- a tad subtle, but a very important difference.

[Opinion Owner]

thanks. I don't think I did it to get back at them. But I did tell myself "Fair is fair. If they don't remember mine, I don't have to remember theirs". Mind you, this was after at least 10 years of them never remembering, so I was pretty tolerant for a long time.

I started doing this with texting too. Like if someone takes 1 or 2 days to reply to me and it happens repeatedly, I start taking that long to reply to them, again from a sense of "fairness". But you've given me lots to think about today. Good Take!

[ak666]

Cheers!

>> [...] so I was pretty tolerant for a long time.

That reminds me of something I should have covered. Tolerance isn't necessarily helpful either, not for your own sanity. It tends to be easier to communicate these things and work things out sooner than later -- deescalating conflicts before they become a big thing.

There's always some necessity to absorb slight injustices -- that's the whole nature of compromise. But it's easier to address problems like these sooner than later.

There's also a calmness you can start to gain from adopting this mentality (but not putting things off). It'll tend to make things better. The world becomes more straight when you are seeking improvement rather than perfect fairness, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, and stress levels tend to go down with it.

[Browneye57]

Reasonable. The FI calls it equality. And while having equal say, women prefer men to lead, to have the ability to make decisions, and be on a mission of greatness. If he can't or won't she loses respect, doesn't get the vag-tingles, and will eventually just shut down sexually.
Men and women are not the same. Equal does not mean the same. Some are more equal than others. ;)

[ak666]

That's getting into a more political type of issue but definitely applicable there -- the obsession on fairness through equality through outcome often has a tendency to create other forms of inequities. If those types of areas could also focus on improvement instead of some perfect, unattainable idea of perfect equality, then perhaps things would be better.

[Lynx122]

I agree, I think the important thing is that both people are focused on giving and not on what they're getting. If both people are happy and keep beeing sweet to their partner then everything is great but once you start seeing it in a business persepective and look at what you're getting and trying to get more and you fight about who should do what then it's pretty much over anyway.

[lumos]

I think fairness in relationships work if both are willing to make compromises and truly listen to their partner's wants and needs.

[ak666]

Agreed but slight difference in wording -- if you're compromising, that's already more in the vain of "improvement" than "justice". The harshest forms of justice tend to seek punishments, "eye for an eye" kind of mindset with no mindset towards improvement, and that tends to ruin relationships very quickly.

[ak666]

Where I was going can also apply towards criminals. If we seek to "punish" them solely with no concern about whether the punishment is going to improve their ability to become productive human beings, then it's counter-productive. Under more of an "improvement" mindset, the concept is not to simply "punish" so much as to seek "remedial action". It's a subtle difference but makes all the difference in how we go about these things -- whether we're seeking to "improve" or "destroy".

[goaded]

Nice Take.

I read somewhere that if you ask a couple who does what proportion of the work in their relationship, BOTH will say they do 70%. From that, I'd say if you think you're doing 50%, you're probably slacking off, and on the other hand you shouldn't get upset unless you think you're doing at least 90% of the work.

[TripleAce]

Yup sure. Just let us be the man, take a back seat ladies. Yea that also means we'll pay for your little goodies BUT as long as we are the man, the drivers seat

[LiviGurlXx]

dude, everyone deserves fairness in their relationship, otherwise its kinda one sided.

[ak666]

The point is that it's impossible in a complex relationship.

[LiviGurlXx]

yeah i guess.

[ak666]

Consider a sexual case between a guy and girl.

The guy spends 15 minutes in foreplay to get the girl aroused.
The girl spends only 3 minutes to get the guy aroused.

Now if the guy starts perceiving this as unfair and wants to make things perfectly fair, he might start spending on 3 minutes in foreplay. Now the girl isn't wet and he has sex with her and it hurts her.

Now the girl thinks the guy is an unfair and selfish prick. She stops having sex outright. Now the guy is thinking she's being completely unreasonable. He breaks up with her.

This is an oversimplified and exaggerated example but it's what tends to happen when the focus is blatantly on trying to set things perfectly straight instead of how to make things better.

Seeking improvement tends to lead to a more fair outcome. Seeking "justice" doesn't.

[ak666]

As another example, take two fighting siblings (children, boy and girl). The girl accidentally breaks the boy's toy. The boy makes things fair by breaking one of the girl's toys. Now they hate each other. The relationship is worse than ever before.

That's how seeking perfect fairness is destructive.

[ak666]

What I'm promoting is fairer outcomes through a mindset focused on improvement, not justice. When the mindset is on improvement, we get qualities like forgiveness, compromise, and peaceful negotiation -- qualities that cannot exist with a pure obsession on justice.

Forgiveness cannot exist with a perfect "justice" mindset, for example, since forgiving requires absorbing and dismissing some perceived unfairness.

A world that only focuses on justice over improvement is generally doomed. When we start applying "eye for an eye" mindsets too broadly, everyone will end up missing their eyes.

[sedrftvgyhujik]

I agree there should be a decent margin of leeway on do i think this is even because pepole are bias and keeping it all entirely fair is hard to do in practice.

[TheDevilInside]

This is an eye opener for me. I'm one of those people to whom fairness is very important

[moviedude714]

I think the idea or concept about anything or certain things in life being fair is a huge stupid like that has been pounded into us since birth

[moviedude714]

*stupid lie

[ProfessorScrewEyes]

No. Being fair does not destroy relationships, being selfish does.

[John_Doesnt]

The force is strong with this one!

[COCOCHANEL]

you're on to something

[Anonymous]

agree