Study shows that about 95% of guys want girls to make the first move... do you guys believe it is true?

[SapouraK]

https://www.google.com/.../?client=safari

[cth96190]

I do not know if the figure of 95 per cent is correct at this time, but I am certain that it will be correct within a decade.
What women, as a collective, appear to not understand about men is that we look upon everything as a cost/risk/benefit calculation. The more intelligent the man, the more that he looks upon his activities in that way.
The reality (about which most women appear to be oblivious) is that the the Feminist sisterhood has made interaction with women so legally dangerous for men that a significant and increasing number of men are walking away, as a matter of self preservation.
Others, who are so driven by hormones and the primal urge to mate that they are willing to take foolhardy risks, are becoming extremely cautious about approaching females.
If the female was to make the first approach, that huge problem would be taken out of the way.
Why are an increasing number of men seeing interaction with women as a legally dangerous thing to do, women ask?
Consider this:
1. Show interest in a female: risk an education or career ending sexual harassment complaint.
2. Approach a woman: risk an education or career ending sexual harassment complaint.
3. Go on a date: risk an education or career ending false rape complaint.
4. Have consensual sex with a woman: risk an education or career ending false rape complaint.
If women want to see what the future will look like, they should follow the link (below) to a report about the situation in Nottinghamshire, England, where, if a man speaks to a woman, he risks an Orwellian criminal charge and prison time.
www.theguardian.com/.../nottinghamshire-police-count-wolf-whistling-hate-crime
The legislation was sold as an anti-catcalling measure, but the bill was written so broadly that any form of interaction that a woman decides is not to her liking can be the basis for a criminal complaint.
*Continued...

[cth96190]

*Continued...
How reluctant do you think that men in Nottinghamshire might be to ask a girl on a date, since this became law?
Based on previous Feminist actions, the new law in Nottinghamshire is likely a beta test for a rollout of similar legislation throughout the Western World.
Quite likely, within a decade, most men will simply give up approaching women completely.
If, or when, that happens, it will fall to women to make the first move. There will be a complete reversal of the current societal norm. Women can also expect that men will regard any and all approaches with extreme suspicion, because of the possibility of militant Feminists wanting to collect male scalps.

[SomeGuy37]

HOLY FCKING SHT!! When did just meeting, having a dinner date, and some conversation with a woman turn into something like needing a contract, or lawyers?
The link, yeah, why would a 'Gentleman' that respected a Lady, be 'Wolf-whistling' or making 'unwanted advances' or trying to touch her, in the first place!! How is this a 'BAD' Law!!
I grew up with the idea of the 'Proper English Gentleman,' but with the arguments against this rule, I must question that!!
What is so WRONG with a woman wanting to feel safe, in a PUBLIC PLACE, and not have to have D-bags and wankers messing with her?
Go ahead, take it to EXTREMES, Reductio ad aburdum!!
Women have every right to feel safe, and NOT EXPECT harassment!!
I have always been respectful, and treated every lady as well, if not more so, than I would my mother, or grandmother. I have never had any issues, or ever thought that there needed to be a law, to do what is proper, as "Gentleman"
What are you doing over there, to need this law?

[cth96190]

@SomeGuy37
The problem with the new law in Nottinghamshire is that it was worded so broadly that any form of interaction that displeases a woman becomes a criminal offence.
The law covers EVERYTHING, not just wolf whistling etc.
The law makes it too dangerous for a man to say 'good morning' to a woman, or to even look in her general direction.

[thetundrawolf]

Wow, a woman downvoted your reply. I am shocked. And a white knight who will just end up miserable because he thinks he can actually make a feminist happy.

[I-am-a-nobody]

This whole wanting girls to make the first move is so wimpy! Don't you guys know how to take some initiative? Can't you read her "subtle" but often obvious non-verbal cues?
I've been married for more than twenty years, so I might not know all the new "rules" for dating, but the truth is it should be easier than this.

Used to be... a guy smiles at a girl and she smiles back, he approaches her, she responds. Each one takes incremental steps letting the other know they are interested. It escalates SLOWLY so neither party is left hanging out there with a big social commitment to someone who isn't interested.

I wonder if having our eyes constantly focused at the screen of an electronic device isn't harming our ability to read people anymore. Honestly, from what I've seen, the girl is often the first one "making a move" by non-verbal cues. It's just the guy is waiting for her to do something much less subtle. This must be why girls do stupid stuff like sending nude selfies to guys.

Is being subtle totally lost on this generation?

[ineverpayfordates]

awww... you realize the same can be said about the girls? why are they so wimpy?

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
Do you wanna be a man or not?

Real men don't need a woman to make the first move.
Real women want a real man who will make the first move.

Look at all the women giving thumbs up!
That's them indirectly saying, "Come on guys, man up already!"

[ineverpayfordates]

My girlfriend approached me, I didn't even see her because I was talking with friends in an extremely crowded public place with > 100s of people, she just came up and asked for my number.

So now I'm not a real man anymore according to your logic?
Am I just a fictional man?
Or am I a woman?
But I still have a penis?
Am I transgender?

Or MAYBE, just MAYBE, you're just plain wrong with your stereotypical thinking.

And as for your pinky upvotes lmao I can't believe you're so easily manipulated. Most people don't like rejection or having to face risks. Of course most women want to uphold societal expectations that ensure that they don't have to face risks. That's not them saying "Man up already", that's them saying "Thank you for being such a white knight, I'll just be lazy and let you work for me."

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
There's more to being a real man than just having a penis.

I'm far from manipulated, I just know what women want and it's NOT passive men.
I'd rather choose the woman I want and pursue, rather than passively wait for her.

It's not society that creates the expectation, it's an understanding of the biological differences between men and women. As men have way more testosterone, they should be more aggressive than women (also more protective of women).
Men have abdicated that natural role and become passive.

[ineverpayfordates]

lmao no. just no. that's some pseudoscientific hogwash. My last blood test was 2 months ago, I have VERY high testosterone even for a male, it's way off the chart to the point my doctor told me it might have some consequences as far as my health is concerned, I do MMA and I've done theater in high school. I'm far from being weak, shy or indecisive in any way, shape or form. I have absolutely no issue walking up to a woman, but I still prefer women to do it because I'm into equally assertive and confident women.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
Well, there more to being a man than having high testosterone, too.

Can't say I share your taste in women, but if you're into that kind of woman, go for it, er...
I mean, don't go for it.

[ineverpayfordates]

yes but that's all it is. your taste and your personality. you need to feel like you're the protector, I don't. that's it. that has nothing to do with gender as evidenced by the fact that there are plenty of females on this thread who say that they PREFER the role of the pursuer.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
Sorry, Mr. Testosterone, most of them still want a real man who pursues.
Women are rating what I said 4-0!

The more feminine women want to be pursued.

[innocentgirl9]

This very feminine woman has down voted you. I could care less about a "man" who has to constantly remind everyone what a "real" man he supposedly is in order to make up for his many other deficiencies.

[objob94]

Hey can I message you? I struggle to know what non verbal cues to pick up on. Is for example obvuous eye contact twice enough for her to want you to walk to her?

[I-am-a-nobody]

@innocentgirl9
Oh, so you would rather do the pursuing, right?
Go ahead, but it's turning our society on its head.
Just look at how many men are too timid to suffer a small rejection.
Look at the whole MGTOW movement!

On the other hand, you have women with absolutely no modesty whatsoever. They act like men (but with different plumbing). Some girls think men have no interest in them at all except for sex and sadly, it's true these days for the most part. The whole male/female thing is dysfunctional. You even have a lot of people thinking male and female is a social construct!

I'm not here to prove what a real man I am.
I'm here to tell guys that they're missing it.
That women like a man to make the first move.
I find the fact that most women agree to be encouraging.
That the men disagree shows how pervasive the problem is.

[ineverpayfordates]

Oh, it's turning our "society" on "its head." God help us, if we don't stop now, tomorrow we'll be marrying cows and eating humans for breakfast.

You realize people have said the same when women started working on their own? They said that women are biologically incapable of working like men and it's turning society on its head. Guess what, 100 years later we're still here.

People have said the exact same thing when women were allowed to vote. "Women are by nature nurtures and are incapable of making logical decisions, therefore they shouldn't be allowed to vote." Guess what, our society hasn't collapsed.

It's always the same people who stand in the way of progress and try to justify it with "biology."

Of course there are differences between males and females biologically and that will never change but men having to ask out women IS a cultural construct! This becomes pretty evident when you look at other cultures where women asking men out is vastly more common.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
The sad part is:
The day probably WILL come when people marry cows and eat human beings for breakfast! We (in the US) had the whole men's room/ladies room thing figured out from the dawn of indoor plumbing until about 10 years ago. Now where are we.
I remember Bruce Jenner as an Olympic hero, now he/she/it is a clown. Yeah, I've seen a lot more changes than you have, so don't be surprised.
Yes, MGTOW, friends with benefits and girls sending nude pics to just about anyone willing to look are more recent developments.
If you think these are positives, then nothing else I say will probably convince you.

[ineverpayfordates]

I don't think they are positives, but you haven't convinced me they are negatives either. I just see them as neutral. Cultures evolve. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. There are animals who are intersex and change their gender, so it's "natural" (since you seem to be appealing to biology so often).

Transgender people haven't changed their sex because it's trendy but because their sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex. There is evidence suggesting that twins who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics or exposure to hormones before birth. Hence, this isn't a voluntary decision they make.

So excuse me if I find it simply laughable that you think one would seek medical treatments, hormone replacement therapy, sex reassignment surgery, and psychotherapy costing hundreds of thousands of

[ineverpayfordates]

dollars just so he can use a women's bathroom or make a clown out of himself.

Please have a little bit more empathy with other people.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
And animals eat their young, eat their own feces and rape juveniles, too.
I was talking about human male/female biology.

I find it hard to believe that Bruce Jenner was really a woman, but was assigned the wrong sex at birth. I don't think a woman could win an Olympic decathlon. Living with the Khardasian clan is more likely the cause.

Concerning empathy...
I have plenty of empathy for real victims.
I'm a little more cynical about what our world is becoming.

[ineverpayfordates]

hahaha, it's funny that you out of all people make this argument. it was you, not me, who was always appealing to biology and our nature since our conversation started. human males, too, savagely murdered their perceived competition and dragged the female human into their caves to fuck her brains out against her will. that this is human nature and biology is pretty clear when you look at places of the world where there is still no law and order.

well, whatever you might find it hard to believe doesn't change the fact there is plenty scientific evidence that gender dystopia has biological causes related to genetics and exposure to hormones before birth. these facts don't depend on your personal belief. but if you're one of those people who "don't believe in science" because it's "unchristian" I can see how you might find it hard to accept facts.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
I believe in science and real science isn't unchristian.
Pseudo-science is another story.

I know there are times when exposure to hormones messes with someone who is XY. I'm just saying, I find it hard to believe that someone with a whole lot of exposure to female hormones would become a male Olympic champion. I think there were a whole lot of perverse environmental factors.

My point from the beginning was that men (male human beings), as they have more testosterone are more aggressive. Men , by nature, take more risks (or at least they used to before political correctness took over). Women, generally and apart from political correctness, like it that way.
On the other hand, women generally don't like rapists, but they want the guy to approach.
(Not exactly a narrow band on the spectrum.)

There are exceptions (your girlfriend), but most women are agreeing with me on this.

[ineverpayfordates]

So, gender dysphoria is pseudo science? Gee, I wonder why the British National Health Service (and pretty much any psychology text book for that matter) doesn't agree with you:

"Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness."

Emphasis on "recognised," "medical" and "not a mental illness," no matter how often you want to blame "perverse" factors.

And you really have to seem trouble understanding what gender dysphoria really is. You can have a strong male body that is capable of winning Olympic gold and still feel disconnected from your male body. If you actually bothered to educate yourself on this issue and cared to understand those poor people instead of shaming them, you would understand why this is the case.

[ineverpayfordates]

Most people of any gender want the other to approach. Have you looked at the title? The truth is, 95% of men want women to approach and 95% of women want men to approach. You always want the other one to do the work. This isn't exactly surprising and has nothing to do with biology.

Are you really trying to say that those 95% of men who want women to approach lack testosterone? Those surveyed in the study weren't even bitter MGTOW men, those were normal men. Are you trying to tell me that 95% of men have testosterone deficiency? Isn't it far more logical to conclude that those 95% of men simply grew up in an environment that has way less strict societal gender roles than the one you grew up in?

[ineverpayfordates]

And if testosterone makes men want to approach women, why don't I feel that way? I mean, I should be chatting up women every minute of my life if you're right about your little hypothesis. Or could it be that I was simply raised without the same societal gender roles and really do what ACTUALLY feels NORMAL to me?

Point is, you're trying to rationalize societal standards. We know that human minds are very prone to first deciding on a desired outcome, then coming up with a plausible-sounding story of why it must be so. In general, our minds have difficulty noticing faulty reasoning if it leads to the right conclusion. It's easy and tempting to come up with an ad-hoc biological explanation for any behavior, regardless of whether or not it actually has any biological roots.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
Concerning trans...
From thefederalist.com/.../
"What researchers have found is that 30 percent of gender dysphoria patients have a lifetime diagnosis of dissociative disorder (formerly called multiple personality disorder). Dissociative disorder and gender dysphoria appear very similar, and clinicians often cannot distinguish between the two in the transgender patient."

We should help these people, but the LGBTQ... XYZ wants to make their behavior normal, even if it's not. Of course, the British National Health Service would never have an agenda, right?

Furthermore, I'll simply point to less MGTOW and gender confusion back in my day.

Isn't it strange that "societal gender roles" have pretty much been polarized in the same direction going back throughout recorded history? That's right. For thousands of years with the exception of an Amazon culture here and there, men have been the pursuers.
It's worked.

[ineverpayfordates]

Have you actually read the research you're citing? Because it seems to me that you have not read it at all because it goes directly against your narrative: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25656174

Read it carefully. Very carefully. It makes three very important points:

1) Body uneasiness is common to both multiple personality disorder AND gender dysphoria. In other words, it's hard to distinguish between the two because they show similar symptoms. That does NOT mean AT ALL that gender dysphoria patients are all suffering from multiple personality disorder, they just show similar symptoms.

It is similar to how the cause for back pain can be a heart attack or poor posture. It is hard to ascertain whether it's a heart attack or poor posture or something else entirely by merely stating the fact that you have back pain right now.

[ineverpayfordates]

And just because those two are showing the same symptoms, this does not mean AT ALL that poor posture is in ANY way related to a heart attack, just as it does not mean that multiple personality disorder is not in ANY way related to gender dysphoria. They just show similar symptoms.

Even your own magazine article brilliantly summarizes this point: "Dissociative disorder and gender dysphoria appear very similar, and clinicians often cannot distinguish between the two in the transgender patient."

2) The cited paper even explains why it's hard to distinguish between the two. Namely because the currently available diagnostic tools are not adequate enough to ascertain which condition is actually present in the patient: "However, it resulted to be difficult to ascertain dissociation in the context of gender dysphoria, because of the similarities between the two conditions and the possible limited application of clinical instruments which do not provide an adequate differential diagnosis."

[ineverpayfordates]

3) Furthermore the paper states: "Finally, when treated, patients reported lower dissociative symptoms. Results confirmed previous research about distress in gender dysphoria and improved mental health due to sex reassignment procedures."

Actually performing sex reassignment operations improved these symptoms. This is a very clear indication that the original cause of these symptoms was actually gender dysphoria and not multiple personality disorder, as the latter cannot be cured by sex reassignment operations.

TL;DR: It's not a mental disorder, although it shows common symptoms. It can be treated by sex reassignment procedures, which multiple personality disorder or other mental disorders cannot be treated by.

So much for that. And now you tell me what the alleged agenda of the British NHS is, or any text book on psychology or medical science for that matter. Please also provide proof for any such claims you make. And no, misrepresenting some magazine article is not "proof."

[ineverpayfordates]

And there is no "gender confusion." It is not "confusion" to get rid of societal gender roles. The same way it was not "gender confusion" to let women work and the same way it was not "gender confusion" to let women vote.

And no, that's again not true. Before the dawn of modern civilisation people lived in tribes where everyone knew everybody else. There was no need to "approach" women. If men wanted sex, they dragged their object of desire into a quiet place and fucked their brains out.

Later on marriages were almost exclusively arranged by parents or village elders. This is still the case in many third world cultures as of this day. There was never a need to approach random women.

[ineverpayfordates]

In fact the Wikipedia article on arranged marriages summarizes this point: "Arranged marriages were very common throughout the world until the 18th century. Typically, marriages were arranged by parents, grandparents or other relatives. Some historical exceptions are known, such as courtship and betrothal rituals during the Renaissance period of Italy and Gandharva marriages in the Vedic period of India."

Pay attention to the fact that it was easier to list the two exceptions to this norm than to state where arranged marriages where commonplace.

You're clearly very misinformed on this subject.

But even if you were right, you're still engaging in a logical fallacy. This fallacy is indeed so common that it even has a name: www.logicallyfallacious.com/.../Appeal-to-Tradition

Since this seems to go nowhere I will end this conversation here. Good night.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@ineverpayfordates
Yeah, you can yack on about "the currently available diagnostic tools are not adequate enough to ascertain..." all you want. I know it is a politically driven pile of doo doo.

You do realize there is a lot of money in sex reassignment, don't you?
You should also realize there is a push to make gender a "spectrum" for the "peace of mind" of a bunch of people who would have sex with squirrels if they could.

OK, I guess not. Bye.

[ineverpayfordates]

"Yeah, you can yack on about "the currently available diagnostic tools are not adequate enough to ascertain..." all you want."

lmao dude. This is what your OWN FUCKING ARTICLE said. The one YOU linked to. Don't blame me for quoting it, YOU brought it up.

First you link to an article that YOU claimed supports your beliefs, then upon closer inspection it actually says the total OPPOSITE of what you believe and now all of a sudden that very same article, that YOU cited as a reliable source, is complete rubbish?

Do you have ANY fucking idea how pathetic and hypocritical you sound?

You have just demonstrated that you have no intellectual integrity and will twist facts any way you can to suit your own little agenda.

[ineverpayfordates]

You have demonstrated that again and again during this discussion. From your assertion that modern men lack testosterone over men always having been the pursuers to gender dysphoria being a mental disorder. All of which I proved to be completely false statements. But that doesn't stop you from spouting more nonsense, without any facts to back them up.

It's the same shit with your little NHS conspiracy, I asked you for ANY proof and again you haven't provided ANY. Oh, surprise! This seems to be a common theme with you.

You just said "you know." Well, judging from your performance so far, you know SHIT.

Talking with you is a total waste of time! You'll be blocked from now on.

[AriadneSky]

i prefer making the first move. i dont feel in conrtol being left to be receptive to whatever the hell his intentions are, which i won't know. if i make the move at least i know what my aim is. and its never malicious.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how anyone prefers being the receiver. i won't reject a guy for making a move if i like him BUT hate it. i never get along with guys who think its the guys job. we clash.

[rushthesand]

Most guys say yes out of laziness, but in reality I think no. Men want to chase women not the other way around. They want someone slightly more out of their league at all times. So I think the relationship wouldn't be as strong if she was the chooser. (Not saying no relationships like this work, but it's prob rare)

[ineverpayfordates]

Nah, YOU are saying that out of laziness, not men. it's mostly women who uphold the standard of men having to chase, not men. it's mostly women who claim that men want to chase even when there's a survey showing that 95% of men don't want it at all. it's mostly women who will completely ignore the obvious results so they don't have to face any risks.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates where's this survey?

[ineverpayfordates]

You should ask the OP, not me. She's making the claim. But I've seen similar studies which say the same. This is not new to me.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates well I've met enough guys who told me they don't like it when a girl makes the first move, so maybe not. It doesn't make sense biologically anyways.

[ineverpayfordates]

please enlighten me, how does it not make biological sense?

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates In most animal kingdoms, the males chase the females and the females judge whether he will provide her with enough resources or not.

[ineverpayfordates]

Someone else claimed the same, I gave a reply why that is non-sense. Read it. There are monkey species where females actively chase males, even for sex, and there are human tribes where this is the norm as well. There are many other species in nature where females chase males. There are even species where males get pregnant.

As I've said in the other thread you're trying to rationalize societal standards. We know that human minds are very prone to first deciding on a desired outcome, then coming up with a plausible-sounding story of why it must be so. In general, our minds have difficulty noticing faulty reasoning if it leads to the right conclusion. It's easy and tempting to come up with an ad-hoc evolutionary explanation for any behavior, regardless of whether or not it actually has any biological roots.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates Those species seem to be rare. And given how humans have acted for centuries, it makes sense that men are naturally the chasers and women the choosers.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates The other part is that women actually are not attracted to the majority of men based on some OKC study, while men seem to be attracted o a large number of women. If women started becoming the chasers, most guys wouldn't even get approached lol.

[ineverpayfordates]

No, they are not rare. This was once thought but we are beginning to understand that it's not true at all. Read the article I quoted. Or let me quote yet another article from the BBC:

"Once upon a time, animal courtship was thought to run something like a Barbara Cartland novel. The rakish males battle it out for a chaste female, who sits around choosing the prince charming to father her young. While her mate may sow his wild oats far and wide, she patiently tends her brood.

Notwithstanding a few counterexamples, these roles were thought to be largely the same across the animal kingdom: males were thought to be promiscuous, dominant and aggressive and the females chaste and passive. For many people, it was just the natural order of the world.

But have we been blinkered by our own cultural prejudices, casting animals in the kinds of roles we saw in the society around us?"

[ineverpayfordates]

That is the view of a small but growing number of biologists. "It's almost like they are using this locker-room logic – counting which males 'score' the most," says Joan Roughgarden at the Hawai'i Institute of Marine Biology.

Researchers such as Roughgarden argue that it was a classic case of "confirmation bias". Many biologists were seeing what they wanted to believe, and then using the results to justify prevailing cultural norms. "You get this back-and-forth: science is reinforcing societal mores, and the mores are reinforcing what the science is saying," says Zuleyma Tang-Martinez at the University of Missouri – St Louis.

The result, Tang-Martinez and Roughgarden believe, is that scientists have often failed to recognise astonishingly diverse sexual behaviours across the animal kingdom. There are now myriad examples of animals that break the rules entirely – from intersex kangaroo to a fish with four separate "genders".

[ineverpayfordates]

[...] Tang-Martinez points out that female lionesses may mate 100 times a day with a string of different partners. The same seemingly-indiscriminate lust can be seen in many species of primates: not just the famously sexually-active bonobos, but langurs, lemurs and capuchin monkeys. That's not to mention countless studies of beetles, crickets, salamanders, snakes, geckos and house mice.

In all these cases, the females simply do not sit around waiting for Prince Charming, as Bateman had proposed."

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates OK, but it says a FEW counterexamples. That doesn't mean that the majority of the animal kingdom is like that.

Also you haven't addressed the second part I wrote. There's evidence that women are not attracted to most men physically. Therefore, women will not approach most of them anyways (unless she personally knows him and likes him otherwise). The few men who do get approached are either really hot or are already close to the lady. -shrug-

[ineverpayfordates]

Have you actually read what I quoted? Because it seems you have not. Let me quote it again: "Notwithstanding a few counterexamples, these roles were thought to be largely the same across the animal kingdom"

The emphasis is on WERE. The past. There WERE thought to be a FEW counterexamples. NOW, however, we know that they are NOT just a FEW.

And the other part is easily explained as well. Have you seen "hot" females without make up? All those celebs who look hot, and then you see a photo of them without make up. I've seen that plenty of times in real life. Woman looks really hot with make up, without make up I'm like "ewww". If make up was outlawed the playing field would be more than level. Not saying you should outlaw make up. lol but this isn't anything that is the fault of our biology. Mating worked just fine long before make up was invented.

[ineverpayfordates]

Also this: "scientists have often failed to recognise astonishingly diverse sexual behaviours ACROSS the animal kingdom. There are now MYRIAD examples of animals that break the rules entirely"

[Imhotep99]

It is completely illogical to bring the animal kingdom into this. We have traditional and modern techniques of dating but animals don't. We are very much different from animals and behave in our own unique way.
So if you want all men to approach you and you choose the best one then you do not support gender equality at all. Women who want to be chased are prudes and lose interest after the chase is over.

[ineverpayfordates]

@Imhotep99 I completely agree. But since many women try to justify their laziness as "being natural" I just wanted to debate that point and show that it is actually very natural for women to initiate.

[Imhotep99]

@ineverpayfordates Yes. It's called playing safe aka prudence.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates 1. No I didn't, I skimmed through it. Frankly I'm not taking this discussion nearly as seriously as you lot are, sorry to say. There are other things I find more important to have an in depth discussion about. -shrug-

2. That's subjective, but anyways... makeup or not, women can get laid. Women are desired by men physically. Not so much the other way around. Ugly men get laid because of $$ or a great personality or something. And many of you think that you want a woman to initiate, but frankly a lot of you guys wouldn't get approached anyways. Like I said, women find most guys unattractive. So really, I have actually approached or asked men out, but they were guys I found physically attractive who were more than likely out of my league and would never have approached me first.

[ineverpayfordates]

1. whether you take it serious or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that you were wrong about your assumption that it wasn't "making biological sense" for women to initiate. you obviously took it serious enough to make that claim but the moment I proved you wrong you weren't taking it serious at all. riiiiiiiiiiiight. that was predictable. I mean, it takes some integrity to admit that you were wrong.

2. I really have no idea wtf you're talking about. my girlfriend approached me and we're a happy couple. practically all my previous relationships were initiated by women. I have friends that have been approached my women as well. I don't know where you get that idea from that men are biologically less attractive than females. that's just not true and I already explained why.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates You can't say I'm wrong. You're using improper scientific terminology now. Most things are theories till proven otherwise.

You are using an anecdote. I am basing my second answer on a study. Anecdotal answers don't really mean much when talking about humans as a whole. I'm not saying that every single woman hates approaching or men hate being approached; I'm talking about what I think most people are like based on are few studies I've read on human sexuality. Granted, I dkilgour@marathonstaffing. com take into a recount hat the okc study isn't the most representatice, but it's results were pretty interesting.

[ineverpayfordates]

I find it funny that you're accusing me of using improper scientific terminology and then you go on and say that "Most things are theories till proven otherwise." LMAO

EVERYTHING in science is called a "theory" EVEN those that are proven to be correct. That IS scientific terminology. It's called "theory of gravity". Are you saying gravity isn't proven to exist? In the language of science, the word "theory" is used to describe an explanation of why and how things happen.

You're just trying to wiggle yourself out of this and deny that you were wrong. You said it doesn't make biological sense, yet there's clear evidence that there are "myriad" of animal species "across the animal kingdom" (direct quotes) where females initiate. so try again please.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates technically no, gravity was never proven though it was widely accepted. Your words not mine- "You're wrong". I may not be wrong and you may not be wrong. Who knows the answer?

Also I don't know much about mating behavior as I had not read much about it, but the little I did know it seemed that males usually chase females more overall. I am "back tracking" because I admit maybe you're right in what you say. It's called being open minded. I am not trying to be right or wrong as there is no "right" answer- but, in my oppinion, it seems like it is better for human males to chase women and women to choose. You haven't countered this point minus your little anecdote.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates my point is- Okay so the argument about animal behavior may not work here, but I still believe in my original thought for a reason, and that's based on that Okc study. It was alarming how low women rated men's appearances. I also read online several women agreeing with those results. I, myself, find only a few men physically attractive

[ineverpayfordates]

"gravity was never proven though it was widely accepted." lmao... *face palm* the fact that you're on Earth right now and not levitating in space should be proof enough that gravity is real. what hasn't been proven is the theory of general relativity which explains gravity. two different things. please educate yourself before you make such bold statements.

And no, males don't choose females more over all. THEY JUST DON'T. That was the fucking point, had you actually not just skimmed through but read the fucking 3 comments long article that I quoted. There is DIRECT OBSERVABLE evidence that there are a MYRIAD of FEMALES ACROSS the entire animal kingdom that INITIATE. What is so fucking hard to understand about this? You're not being open-minded, you're in denial even though there are ACTUAL OBSERVABLE facts observed by actual scientists and reported in actual fucking scientific papers.

You asked who knows the answer and what's right and what's wrong? THEY DO. read the damn article.

[ineverpayfordates]

And I don't need to counter your point because you haven't given any proof or reasoning as to WHY it should be better for males to initiate and for females to choose. That is your claim. So you proof it first. It's not my job to disprove something that you haven't proven to be true in the first place. That article I quoted, had you actually bothered to read it, actually shows why this is not the case AT ALL.

And as we're going in circles here and you're clearly not reading anything I say, it's mute time now.

[rushthesand]

1. ncse.com/library-resource/gravity-its-only-theory

2. theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates Ah actually reread the first link. Nvm you're right.

See, I admit if I'm wrong about something. Why do you have such an issue with that?
Doesn't mean I STILL don't think men prefer women approaching them and vice versa. I sure as hell am not ever gonna do that again.

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates anyways frankly it's 3 am and I'm not taking this convo seriously at all lol. Talking about gender dynamics is a fun and silly thing to do. Y'all are taking this way too seriously if we need to pretend we REALLY arguing with some serious forms of citations and all that jazz. So chill out a bit

[ineverpayfordates]

lmao, I told you I'd mute you and hoped you'd shut up and now I have to mute you for real.

and before you quote articles, you should actually read them. The first link is actually a SATIRE targeting people who use the "it's only a theory" excuse to argument against observable evidence. So it's extremely ironic that YOU are quoting exactly THAT piece of satire after doing exactly the same thing. LMAO

and despite what you might be thinking I'm not taking this serious at all. I just have low patience for stubborn people who are not willing to learn from their mistakes. It makes my blood boil. lol

And I already gave you a reasonable explanation for your cupid article. Just google for "celebrities without make up" and try to tell me how good looking they are. Frankly, the first time I saw Kim Kardashian without make up I wanted to puke over all my keyboard (not that she's particularly attractive with make up either).

[rushthesand]

@ineverpayfordates Seems you missed the other responses I had. Chill out bro. Whatever it is, if you want to start a revolution to make women ask men out, go ahead.

[ineverpayfordates]

I really couldn't care less about what you women do or don't do, whether you ask guys out or sit at home eating yoghurt and watch Ellen. I'm more than happy with the women I know, thanks for asking. lol

[SapouraK]

Omfg I had no idea that this topic would escalate to this point. Here is the article that I saw.

elitedaily.com/.../

[Kirah]

Of course, almost everyone wants the other person to make the first move.

However, there is a reason guys say this a lot. Women almost never do it. Almost all of my female friends *refuse* to make the first move. Dating is heavily stacked in favor of women, it only makes sense that men are getting tired.

[ineverpayfordates]

do your female friends refuse to make the first move because they think they will be judged for it and they'll end up being rejected or do they refuse because they can gain more if they let the man do all the work?

[Kirah]

@ineverpayfordates definitely the latter. They don't want to make the first move because they can afford to sit back, and wait for the guy to do all the work.

They might *say* that they are afraid of being judged, but the truth is, they're just far more comfortable taking the passive role.

[ineverpayfordates]

Wow, that's sad. Do you live in a very conservative area?

[Kirah]

@ineverpayfordates actually, not at all. I live in the Netherlands, which is very liberal. All of these women call themselves "progressive", too. Apparently they're not in a hurry to eliminate sexism, if they benefit from it.

[ineverpayfordates]

I just find that incredibly selfish. I mean, when I think about situations where men were benefiting in the past, like not having to do house work, I'd never ever think "yeah, let's just let her cook and clean for me and see how far I can exploit any residual acceptance of that gender based expectation". That would never cross my mind and completely go against my integrity.

In which other ways is dating stacked against men in the Netherlands? The two Dutch women I met in my life were very much against the idea of men having to pay for everything, were they the exception or the norm?

[jessica5d]

Whoa, I'm pretty disappointed to hear that Dutch women are like that. I thought they are more progressive?

[Kirah]

@jessica5d they are, most of the time. But people are less likely to give up on tradition if the tradition benefits them.

Plenty of women are fine with making the first move, though. They're just in the minority.

[Notorisch_Arschloch]

I kinda wish they'd stop, or at least have a realistic sense of their sexual marketplace value.

It seems like the ones with nothing to lose because they know no man's hitting on them will be more obnoxiously brash, and quick to make a scene when they don't get a positive response.

Seriously ladies, if you weigh as much as me, are older than me, and sound like you've been eating cigarettes since you were 13, dial it back and take no for an answer. When you think sidling up and fucking up my pool shot by hip tipsily checking me with some overtly sexual comment that would get me successfully sued for harassment ANYwhere is the way to go, you need to realize you're going to get loudly embarrassed every time.

[EmiliaB]

Anyone who goes around thinking women have a "marketplace value" has no respect for women anyway, and will still be blaming everyone but themselves for why they're still single 20 years from now.

It's fine to have a type, but dating is a two way effort. You aren't automatically owed anything.

[Notorisch_Arschloch]

@EmiliaB Yeah, and anyone who goes around not realizing that people are incentive oriented creatures just like anyone else, hence the term "sexual marketplace," is someone who's ideas about how men "should" be attracted to women, and who's future, both make me laugh. The projection of singlehood being some kind of bad thing to a man is even further icing on this comedy cake sweetheart.

[EmiliaB]

That's absolutely fine for people who genuinely want be single, but you're bitter and it''s obvious.

[EmiliaB]

... or you seem bitter here, or angry.

[Brah63926]

@EmiliaB Women do have marketplace value men are designed to like younger women due to being more fertile hence a younger woman has better market value than an older one and it's a fact and basic biology

[EmiliaB]

@Brah63926 True, from that angle I guess.

[Notorisch_Arschloch]

@EmiliaB Lol, the old standby, "you're just bitter." As if... that's the trump card that makes your position the correct one. Never mind the biological facts brah mentioned...

I exclusively date 18-22, when i can be bothered to tolerate a female, and otherwise do whatever I want. My divorced friends pay more in alimony than I spend on guns and concerts per month. My married friends go home to honey-do lists and find out that they "need" window treatments. I don't even know what those are, but I know they cost more than the tattoos I don't need permission to spend money on.

Yeah, my life is shit. So bitter here.

The only really annoying thing women do about which I might be upset at all is be disgustingly fat where I can see. I manage that by just going out at night, keeping shades on and a hat pulled low and eyes down in the day otherwise. Other than that, if they could just stop (for whatever idiot reason) thinking I am friendly, that'd be great.

[AleDeEurope]

Everyone prefers not making the first move, so yeah, I'd believe it.
But wanting someone to make the first move doesn't mean we're gonna wait for it to happen. That's the difference between men and women.

P. S.: The link is broken :/

[PunkinPie]

I make the first move a lot. I can't help it. I'm too outgoing.

[AriadneSky]

@PunkinPie

i prefer it as well.

[SapouraK]

elitedaily.com/.../

Here is the link

[Kuraj]

Everyone would like to be approached.
The women in the comments here keep saying how they wouldn't like to approach men - because "if they really liked you they would chase you".

Funny, almost as if men shouldn't be allowed to have the same right to feel desired too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[AlexanderMTW]

Nice.

[PlacentaSalad]

It doesn't surprise me that a large majority of those interviewed would want women to make the first move. Now that women are being encouraged to have the strength and courage to go for what they want, I'm not sure why women would be just sitting around and waiting for something to happen. There's not much excuse for it anymore now that gender roles aren't really a thing.

Unfortunately, there's still probably a large majority of women who still want men to make the first move so what you will have are a bunch of people just glancing at one another, never budging but hoping the other person will.

[PunkinPie]

I usually make the first move, and learn he's taken. Oh well.

[FatherJack]

I would say this is a combo of fear of rejection , males are not the desired gender , some young women especially can be very brutal in rejecting men , saw this many times as door staff , a woman will NEVER experience this from a man , as female attention is very rare for most men , most men will likely be shocked at first , then flattered !! Whereas is the reverse for women , most are sick of male attention !!

Also there ARE gender roles , a woman will in nearly all cases , expect the man to lead confidently , therefore he approaches her.

[MargaritaPeach]

Women get rejected by men all the time! And in brutal ways. Not sure what leads guys to believe that we are immune from rejection. I've approached plenty of men in my lifetime; I've had them laugh in my face, and I've heard things like 'yeah, right', 'not in this lifetime', and 'grow a new face and then come see me'. We get rejected too. You just have to keep going until you find the right person.

[SarahsSummer]

Yeah, sorry. I'm with Margarita both genders face rejection (sometimes brutal) neither enjoy it.

[MysteriousDarkness]

@MargaritaPeach He makes it sound like women have a 100% chance with any guy they want regardless the type of women they are.

[MargaritaPeach]

@MysteriousDarkness yeah... Unfortunately, that's just not the case. Even for women that are hot. The fact is, everyone is only attracted to a certain number of person.

[AriadneSky]

@MargaritaPeach

absolutely. ... im really glad you guys pointed this out directly. it gets so annoying hearing how guys get rejected and women sit around expecting things.

and still, i prefer approaching. it just feels too precarious when a guy does. if i approach i know WHY im doing it,. if he does, well, who knows. i dont like surprises, so..

[Anonymous]

So I made the first move, and multiple other moves, what did it bring me? Nothing. Men need to grow up and stop treating bold women who know what they want, and go for it in all honesty, like these women are some kind of shit putting themselves out there or intimidating.

[AriadneSky]

they keep blaming it on 'womens expectations'. granted some women may expect it, BUT these guys and women too i think, totally ignore the part MEN play in it. many guys won't have it if a woman approaches him hell reject her just for her boldness.

if you want more women approaching tell your brothers to stop being cowards and assholes in response.

[Opinion Owner]

@AriadneSky I agree dear. I made the moves with this guy. I pursued him and made him clear that he is worth to getting to know, and spend time with. So I told him that i want to exclusively date him. But all he did was to ghost on me without even giving an answer. After a month, he started chasing after me, apologizing for being a coward and rejecting me. Now I am not giving two shits, and play with him, he likes it more than the previous me being direct, honest, and bold.

[Kirah]

So you got rejected a few times. Who cares? This is what dating is like when you're forced to be the pursuer!

The guy currently chasing after you doesn't seem like the type of guy you would want to date, anyway.

[Jager66]

So you got tiny little taste of what it's like to be the pursuer, got bitter and now you play mind games with men.

lol, weak sauce..

[Opinion Owner]

@Jager66 no not really. This was the fifth time I got rejected in my life. except one of the guys, all came after me... this was the last game. You guys like to suffer, and respect women playing mind games more than you respect direct and honest women, based on my experience.

[Kirah]

You're basing your entire experience on 5 rejections? Most of my guy friends experience rejection at least once a month. I had countless rejections too. You know nothing, princess.

[Jager66]

You no nothing about men. You got a tiny taste of rejection and your true colors are now showing through, it's ugly and you don't like it so you blame it on men.

[Opinion Owner]

@Kirah because i had 3 relationships with those 3 guys each 3 years since I was 17. Maybe that's why?

[Opinion Owner]

@Jager66 say whatever works for you.

[shan_shan]

really 95% i didn't think they will be that huge but honestly i think its true men like it when a girls approach them first they must feel good just like when girls feels when a guy tell them they like them although they must like it more because its not everyday a girl comes to a guy and tell them i like you so it must be special unless your are celebrity😉

[Darkfairie17]

I can see why guys would appreciate it if the girl made the first move. It's scary going up to someone and asking them out when you have no idea how they feel. So I commend the guys who take that chance.

It's also probably refreshing when the girl does take the initiative too if the guy is always initiating things.

[GingerGuy]

Yes, it would be a nice and welcomed change. I think there'd be a lot "happier" relationships because of it to as women would be "choosing" who their interested in (like they do anyway, but guys wouldn't have to guess and women wouldn't settle or go with the guy that asks them instead of who they are interested in).

[jp612612]

I think you're getting too stuck on the gender thing. I think that EVERYONE likes it if other person makes the first move. My guess is 95% of all females would want a prospective employer to offer them a job upfront rather than having to apply. Conversely, I'm pretty sure 95% of all males would want the same. Confounding!

[TheBootyChest]

By "move" I think of that as asking him out for a date.

But yes I wouldn't mind if she hinted that she liked me so that I can feel more confident knowing that if I ask she won't slap me in the face or think I just want sex from her.

[El_Muffidore]

I could agree somewhat. I'd find it convenient if she did. Approaching a girl that has no interest is basically guaranteed a rejection. I know men are stupid about picking up the signals, but it's better than nothing.

[vatmnhat]

The settler tends to get bored sooner. This happens more often in guys case. If a girl settler says yes to a date/relationship, her love tends to grow strong more frequently than a guy settler.

But if girls approach their date interests more often, the cummulative measure of awkwardness and depression will be lower, just because us guys are more likely to say yes to you girls 🤤

[xxAjjxx]

"Studies" can show 100% yet, the results still wouldn't apply to everyone. Studies showing things like this doesn't really give any value, unless everyone in the world was surveyed. Why would any guy be against a girl making the first move? Either way, he would need to move anyway.

[spoonman2014]

I'd say so, many girls use annoyingly subtle ways to tell you they like you. It notice it depends on the girls too, fat and obese girls are way more forward than most girls. Certain ethnicities are more forward too I notice, pretty girls tend to be more shy too I notice

[RockingRitu]

I don't know if the percentage is perfect. But yes everyone wants their partner to make the first move regardless their gender. Cause you need a lot of courage and guts to make the first move. Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

I believe that the vast majority of men wish women would make a move when they are interested in a guy rather than just sit back helplessly like most women do and hope he makes a move. That doesn't mean we think women should make all the moves... we just wish they would as much as men do.

[America1st]

I don't agree on the percentage, but I'm sure men that are shy or lack confidence would like the girl to be the the one who initiates contact. I have no preference.

[pooper89]

I think it's totally fine for a guy to have this mentality but it's not realistic. You have to go after what you want in life and if that means approaching someone because waiting for her/him to approach you hasn't worked then so be it

[tyber1]

You realize that since men are typically the pursuers, that you're argument actually favors women making the first move more often. By your own logic, it's a very realistic and mutually beneficial desire.

[Blitzkrieger]

if both sexes make moves it will lead to more relationships happening. the ability for making the first move doesn't have to be monopolized by only one gender.

[DarklordOdin]

While I don't exclusively think that women should make the first move, I think more need to if they want someone. Same with asking for one's hand in marriage. People need to discard gender roles and evolve into humans following their dreams.

[TripleAce]

We'd like them too, we do want them too. And they should too. Big babies I tell you. Want the man to do everything lol

[shy_awkward_guy]

Guys want girls to make the first move because it means that the girl is interested. Other then the guy making the move and getting rejected.

[MagiAlphaOne]

Either way for me works. I was fortunate. My prayers were answered and I met my Wife on a BLIND DATE!

[thetundrawolf]

What was it like? The date?

[MagiAlphaOne]

@thetundrawolf , You are going to like this! My Mother and her Boyfriend (Hair Stylist) were on the blind date! Later the Boyfriend married my Mother and he is my Step-Father! As for the date, it was great! Been married for 24 years. Daughter about to graduate from College. My wife was truly an answer to my Prayers.

My recommendation to ANY young Man today is to Pray for the right girlfriend/wife. I'm glad I'm not a 20 something young man trying to find a girlfriend. Google on "woman are not women anymore".

[thetundrawolf]

Yes I pray for the woman God has for me almost every day. I see so much healing in my own heart and getting ready to be the right man for her. I know if I would have met her just a year ago I wouldn't have known the things I know now. The Bible says that God knew me before the foundation of the world well if that's true then God also knows the woman He had and still has for me.

[Anonymous]

I often make the first move. I often intiate sex with my boyfriend too

[Alessus]

I mean I certainly don't have anything against it, but it's not exactly that I want them to make the first move.

[Words_and_Wisdom]

It is leagues easier for a woman to make the first move than the man. If a guy makes the first move, a woman's first instinct is to assume he's a creep. If a woman makes the first move, a guy's first instinct is 'oh hell yeah, she wants the D.'

[AriadneSky]

hmm yes but for many guys thats a reason to reject her. i dont care they can go suck it. just saying , for many women they will not make a move bc the guy will use it against them. WHY they want that guy. no clue.

[Words_and_Wisdom]

@AriadneSky Not at all. I mean sure, some guys will have an ego and feel their 'masculinity' is threatened. However, most of us will be welcoming of women asking for our numbers, inviting us on dates, and initiating sex. Trust me.

[Words_and_Wisdom]

Also, there are far more single guys than guys who are in relationships. As for women, they all seem to be in relationships.

That might be one of the few concerns a single guy could worry about if a girl approaches him though.

[AriadneSky]

... I've known a few guys who were interested in a friend until she asked him out. some even when they already expressed interest. i dont think its majority but certainly a fair amount. i mean feeling threatened is not a small thing. and maybe they'd have come around in time but none of my friends waited bc its pretty infuriating having someone try to make you feel like an idiot bc you had courage.

but i like your attitude. I've seen lots of your answers, you have sensible views and seem honest about it :-)

actually with my boyfriend i thought he was rejecting me bc i initiated things. he got mad when i asked him on a date. but it was a misunderstanding bc he thought id already rejected him and felt i was jerking him around. i nearly did not ask him out again, but luckily i got good advice here and went for it one last time :) i didn't bother asking him out lol i just said does he want to be my boyfriend. nooooo haha worse. i think i told him i was in love with him then said nvm, i take it back.

[AriadneSky]

then i talked to him again explaining i was just trying to sort out if i should move on, bc i wanted to start over, well i wanted him to be my boyfriend.

and he gave this big speech about trust etc and it sounded like he was rejecting me so i was just like so... do you not want to be my boyfriend. and he said he didn't say that lol

he wanted to take things slow. then i visited him at work then he walked me home then he slept over-actual sleep not sex, then in the middle of the night he asked if i was his girlfriend. lol

but id asked first. and if i had not i dont see hat as working out at all.

true he asked me out first years ago but i was not ready to date, if i had been id have asked him out and there'd be no misunderstanding.

[AlexanderMTW]

@AriadneSky Sounds like what's happening to me and my ex right now lol.

[AriadneSky]

@AlexanderMTW

ah haha --hope it ends (begins?) well !

:-)

[AlexanderMTW]

Thank you, yeah it ended well.

[flying_pizza]

I seem to be one of the 5% of guys then. Every time a girl approached me, I felt uncomfortable. I prefer to be in control of the situation and that involves me being the one going after the girl and asking her out.

[AriadneSky]

i feel the same. so wed clash:)

[AriadneSky]

what do you do if you actually really like the girl? i won't reject the guy if i like him bc thats dumb, but i dont like it.

[flying_pizza]

@AriadneSky If I really like the girl then I will approach her before she approaches me. :)

[AriadneSky]

of course i could say the same but, it doesn't always happen. she could just see you before you see her.

[flying_pizza]

@AriadneSky then I'd give her a chance of course.

[AriadneSky]

yeah, of course. :-)

[Anonymous]

I agree haha I do sometimes make the first move.
With my Ex, I was the one making the first move. We're in the 21st century damn it hahaha

[ThisDudeHere]

I don't know how much this statistic is true for every guy. Personally I wouldn't mind a girl asking me out. I don't see anything that damaging to my pride about it.

[vishna]

I think everyone wants their crush to make the first move :)

[Eugene]

Your link is broken.

However, yeah, it's good to know whether the girl is interested in us or not, so that we don't waste our time, money and energy trying to get her attention.

[pooper89]

Whats an islamorealist?

[Eugene]

@pooper89
"Islamorealist" -> an infidel that knows about islam more than he's supposed to.

[pooper89]

You're Islamic?

[pooper89]

Oh wait. So you're not Islamic but know a lot about it

[Eugene]

@pooper89
Yeap.

Usually uneducated/dumb people call it "islamophobe", but correct term is "islamorealist".

[SapouraK]

elitedaily.com/.../

[SapouraK]

Here is the article

[lolitaa__]

i've actually sometimes thought about approaching guys instead, so this is good to know lol

[innocentgirl9]

Do it, it's fun lol

[lolitaa__]

@innocentgirl9 haha will take the advice girl lol

[Cats_kitty]

girl I've thought the same way lately because what's the worst that can happen

[ineverpayfordates]

@Cats_kitty right. if he says no you know the answer. some girls need to stop being such pussies. lol

[Cats_kitty]

yea plus it's not that I'll ever have to go back to where he works

[Cats_kitty]

I feel like it will build up confidence in myself because a year ago I wouldn't even think about asking a guy put

[Cats_kitty]

out*

[ineverpayfordates]

@Cats_kitty you actually don't. you can always get yourself fired and go on unemployment lol

[Cats_kitty]

Hahaha well that would be pointless since we don't work together

[ineverpayfordates]

@Cats_kitty just do it. this bubble women have been living in, of "well, I'm a woman so I don't have to do X, Y and Z" needs to stop. you want him? You better work for him. There are guys who get rejected every single month. Most women would never endure that, or they would find lame excuses like "well men just don't like it when they are approached." You, as a girl, should approach men. Yes, you will be rejected, but that's life. You will also get many opportunities that you haven't had before. My girlfriend approached me and we're a happy couple.

[Cats_kitty]

yesssss exactly, this sums it up perfectly. I know that if I don't approach him nothing will ever happen so I'd rather get rejected then wounder what could've happened like I have in the past

[ineverpayfordates]

@Cats_kitty big thumbs up, my girl! :D

[Cats_kitty]

just gotta think about what imma say or I'm just gunna wing it and do it on the spot

[ineverpayfordates]

@Cats_kitty "Hi, you're cute, I'd like to buy you coffee sometime, wanna go out with me?" lol

[bente2]

I had a poll on here, and 99% answered they would like the girl to make the first move. I think most of those guys are very passive though. It's not really 'natural', biologically, for women to chase the men.

[ineverpayfordates]

that's just not true. there are tribes in secluded parts of the world where it's the exclusive norm for women to choose men and propose to them. those tribes are as natural as you can get. stop trying to rationalize your own passiveness.

[bente2]

@ineverpayfordates how do you even know I'm passive? That's a dumb assumption to make. Anyway, that's one example. Going back further, to pure instincts, like we see in our relatives the monkey, the male always chases. The female might come to the male for affection after having already received it, but the males always chase.

I'm not saying women shouldn't take initiative, if that's something you wanna do whatever, it's not my issue. I'm just saying it's not biologically wired in a woman's brain to initiate. However, it is wired to seduce, which can be seen as initiating. Nowadays many males fail to see the signs of interest which is why they complain about women not initiating.

[ineverpayfordates]

You're talking pseudoscientific nonsense. Let me quote an article on it (I can't include the link because I'm xper 1 but you can google for it):

"Ever since Darwin there had been an assumption among evolutionary biologists that females were coy and choosy in their sexual behavior while males were the ardent, promiscuous sex. Even though important advances in gender equality have been achieved since then, “most Darwinian models of human origins incorporate females only as passive objects of male competition,” wrote biological anthropologists Craig Stanford and John Allen as the 20th century came to a close. And yet these female langurs were observed actively pursuing males from neighboring troops while, according to the prevailing theory, they should have been chaste rather than chasing. What was even more surprising was that they would exhibit these sexual advances at any stage in their estrous cycle, sometimes even when they were already pregnant."

[ineverpayfordates]

Langurs, if you didn't know, are a group of monkeys. And female Langurs chase males, even for sex! There are plenty of female species in nature which chase males! There are plenty of human tribes where this is the norm!

Again, you're trying to rationalize societal standards. We know that human minds are very prone to first deciding on a desired outcome, then coming up with a plausible-sounding story of why it must be so. In general, our minds have difficulty noticing faulty reasoning if it leads to the right conclusion. It's easy and tempting to come up with an ad-hoc evolutionary explanation for any behavior, regardless of whether or not it actually has any biological roots.

As for you not being passive, how many men have you asked out on first dates so far? How many men have you asked for their number?

[bente2]

@ineverpayfordates I've asked out men before. I've initiated a conversation, I've asked their number. It's not hard to do, it's just more uncomfortable for women to be rejected (because of the societal norm)

Sure, langurs are a good example of females initiating. But why do they go to different troups for sex? Is it to keep the population healthy or something different? There are some tribes where females initiate, but there are also a lot of them where the female does not. I'm willing to conclude it might be a taught process, but still the majority of those tribes have males initiating, making it more logical that that's a biologic thing. (As seen in other species)

[ineverpayfordates]

No, the majority don't have the male initiating. That's not true, not even for the whole animal kingdom. I know why you might think that as this was the prevalent opinion just a few years ago but we are starting to learn that this is not true at all. Let me quote another article from the BBC:

"Once upon a time, animal courtship was thought to run something like a Barbara Cartland novel. The rakish males battle it out for a chaste female, who sits around choosing the prince charming to father her young. While her mate may sow his wild oats far and wide, she patiently tends her brood.

Notwithstanding a few counterexamples, these roles were thought to be largely the same across the animal kingdom: males were thought to be promiscuous, dominant and aggressive and the females chaste and passive. For many people, it was just the natural order of the world.

But have we been blinkered by our own cultural prejudices, casting animals in the kinds of roles we saw in the society around us?

[ineverpayfordates]

That is the view of a small but growing number of biologists. "It's almost like they are using this locker-room logic – counting which males 'score' the most," says Joan Roughgarden at the Hawai'i Institute of Marine Biology.

Researchers such as Roughgarden argue that it was a classic case of "confirmation bias". Many biologists were seeing what they wanted to believe, and then using the results to justify prevailing cultural norms. "You get this back-and-forth: science is reinforcing societal mores, and the mores are reinforcing what the science is saying," says Zuleyma Tang-Martinez at the University of Missouri – St Louis.

The result, Tang-Martinez and Roughgarden believe, is that scientists have often failed to recognise astonishingly diverse sexual behaviours across the animal kingdom. There are now myriad examples of animals that break the rules entirely – from intersex kangaroo to a fish with four separate "genders".

[ineverpayfordates]

[...] Tang-Martinez points out that female lionesses may mate 100 times a day with a string of different partners. The same seemingly-indiscriminate lust can be seen in many species of primates: not just the famously sexually-active bonobos, but langurs, lemurs and capuchin monkeys. That's not to mention countless studies of beetles, crickets, salamanders, snakes, geckos and house mice.

In all these cases, the females simply do not sit around waiting for Prince Charming, as Bateman had proposed."

[spencify]

i dont care personally, but yeah guys want to feel desired too

[Ellie5823]

Personally I'm ok with making the first move, cuz I have this classmate that a huge crush on me 2 years ago, I had a crush on him too. a week ago, he told me he had a crush on me, and he was shy to ask. So I was like shit, I should of made the first move. I think girls should make the first move.

[tyber1]

Good lesson to learn

[aarkay]

Upto some extent because sometimes men don't know if this is the right move or right time. So if women make that 1st move this can be a life saving act 😂😂

[limbojunkie]

Sadly because they are not men anymore. They are afraid to be rejected and they are fragile they can't even handle a lady saying 'no' to them. It's human nature a guy moves first. Girls are the ones being offered. The funny thing is, guys who want girls to do the first move think they'll get much proposals from women while no one will even bother about them.

[BCRanger10]

I wouldn't mind if she did, but I would prefer to make the first move myself.

[PunkinPie]

Yes, I believe it. It almost never pays off, though. They're either not interested or taken, or they go along for a few dates and fade out.

It makes me wonder if guys feel less invested in women they didn't chase.

[jessica5d]

No, I don't believe that. The same happens to lots of men, too. They ask a girl out and she ghosts him after a few dates. They just weren't attracted to you that much.

[PunkinPie]

@jessica5d Yes, that's what I tell myself. A couple times, though, it turned out that the guy had a girlfriend and I was tempting him away from her. As soon as I found out I ended it but I felt really bad.

[jessica5d]

Yeah, it was better that way. I actually had a lot of luck going after guys but I only did it with guys who I knew were interested in me in the first place.

[TripleAce]

Yea that's possible "if guys feel less invested in women they didn't chase"

Maybe middle point is always best... make it obvious but let him come to you...

[PunkinPie]

@jessica5d I don't know any single guys so for me it's like cold-selling. Lol. Just walk up to a guy somewhere and start a conversation, and if it goes well, give him my number.

[TripleAce]

That's actually pretty amazing too. When that does happen, you walk away feeling pretty good

[PunkinPie]

@TripleAce sighhhh... I dunno... I'm just not attractive enough. No one likes me. Waaaaahhhhhh!

[TripleAce]

Attraction is the biggest curse when it comes to dating. You can be the best ever but if the person isn't attracted to you... it's pretty much game over

[PunkinPie]

@TripleAce Yup!

[PunkinPie]

It would prolly help if I lost 50 lbs, but the lifestyle changes required to do that are more than I can tackle at the moment.

[PunkinPie]

Yet chubby chicks still get dates, sooo... I dunno.

[PunkinPie]

I love the photo!

[Jager66]

"They're either not interested or taken, or they go along for a few dates and fade out."

This is EXACTLY what it's like when men chase women! It's a numbers game and plenty of men regularly get rejected like a hundred times before they get accepted.

Then they break up and it's right back at the constant never ending rejection game where you have to keep a positive attitude or risk becoming the kind of person no one would want to be with, have to magically keep your confidence up as well otherwise you will get even more rejection..

Honestly I think lots of women could learn a great deal about men if they would put their big girl pants on and spend a couple years exclusively chasing men on a regular basis.

[PunkinPie]

@Jager66 haha... if there were only enough around to chase

[Jager66]

if there isn't physically enough men to chase.. ya that would makes things a fair bit more difficult!

[PunkinPie]

@Jager66 Yup. Lol

[Nostradamus]

Since the moment you say "hi" you're already a stalker nowadays. So it could be true that most prefer being approached.

[Theforgottenlife]

It'd be more cool can't tell with the little flirting

[es20490446e]

https://youtu.be/Da3GohZlgFA

[Dragonspawn]

I only wan't my girl to make the first move so that she doesn't feel pressured or forced to do things she doesn't want to.

[TheWombRaider]

Yes of course its always easier of the other person makes the first move than having to worry about making the first move yourself and it being the wrong move or being rejected.

I think that would be anyone though!!

[Peebubs]

I used to always make the first move. Now I exclusively wait for guys to make the first move. It makes you believe that he really want you when he chases after you.

[Kirah]

What if the guy thinks the same thing? What if he thinks "she doesn't really want me"?

[Peebubs]

Well then we won't date will we? Lol. I like a man that goes for the pounce, not quitters.

[Kirah]

I just never understood the mentality of *not* going after the thing you like. I can guarantee that your sexist ideals are hurting your chances.

[Peebubs]

I'm not being sexist, I've gone after men before. I just would like for a man to come after me for once. And my "chances" don't bother me, because dating isn't my priority.

[LadyTerror]

"I like a man that goes for the pounce, not quitters."

Clearly, you're a quitter yourself

[Peebubs]

If you say so.

[LadyTerror]

You're the one who admitted it, but ok

[dgNekroh]

I would much prefer it if chicks made the first move. They don't, but it would make life easier if they just let a dude know they were interested in the most direct way possible.

[pooper89]

Thats not unattractive?

[pooper89]

Desperate?

[dgNekroh]

No, it shows initiative and desire, which is a fantastic feeling. It's incredibly refreshing to have someone just straight up tell you that they're into you, no games, no second guessing whether or not you should make a move or attempt anything. Clear signals and direct words are the best.

[FrenchyRomain]

well yes... why should it always be us? #Equality? isn't that what feminists want? it passes through littles things like this too

[egi22]

I hope not. I mean, I can make the first move, sure. But I am old school. I like when a guy asks me out.

[ineverpayfordates]

do you wait until marriage, cook and clean for your man, obey him? I mean, you said you're old school.

[egi22]

lol no. I meant the old way of asking a girl out. but you understand what you want to understand ;)

[ineverpayfordates]

so you're just old school when it benefits you. that's called being selfish.

[egi22]

yeah call me that. and I said I can make the first move. but does the guy deserve that. but who are you to judge me? and why do you reply my answer? to judge me... good move.

[ineverpayfordates]

so what makes you think you deserve it while the guy doesn't?

[egi22]

if I don't deserve, then he won't ask me out, of course. it works both ways. don't worry, @ineverpayfordates, I do pay for my own.

[ineverpayfordates]

lol I have no issue with paying for dates, I just chose the name to piss of a few entitled princesses here on GAG. Granted, most first dates I had were initiated and paid for by the female part but I always reciprocated.

so why don't you equally ask guys out then? I don't understand all the special snowflakes on GAG who believe they deserve better than men. I really don't. Please enlighten me. lol

[egi22]

I didn't say that. I didn't say I deserve everything. Guys would decide if I deserve that or not. I respect men who respect me. But let me ask you something, have you ever been touched in public places? have you ever been asked out and then with the nastiest words, been asked for sex like you're a prostitute? have you ever been cheated, because the partner thought it's absolutely ok? have you ever been accused of cheating just because the other girls gave you attention, but you weren't interested? have you? would you still think every guy deserve to be asked out if you were me? I repeat, I do respect men, a lot of them are very nice. But after some experiences, a man has to be nice to me and respect me. I am very precautious now. That's why I said "do the guy deserve that? ". I am not just waiting for him to do everything for me. I have a lot to offer as well if he treats me well. In a relationship we are equal.

[ineverpayfordates]

I understand your rationale but I don't understand the conclusions you draw. do you really for a moment think that a guy who's "alpha" enough to approach you will not be also "alpha" enough to touch you and use you for sex? abusers and bad boys also ask out girls and pay for them. waiting for the guy to make the first move will definitely not filter out those guys, in fact it will attract them because they see passive women as easy prey.

doesn't it make much more sense to go after more calm guys who let you initiate but don't use you for sex? be smart about it.

[egi22]

I like it when the man asks me out. What is bad about it? It's something I appreciate and like. You like it when the woman asks you out. I don't think it's bad what you like. I am not judging you, so please don't judge me. After all why do you care what I like? It's not like we would date. You are dating the women you like and I am dating the guys I like.
Oh, and that's why I insist to pay for myself. To not be treated like I have something to do for him in exchange.

[ineverpayfordates]

there's nothing wrong with liking it. I understand why you like it. It makes you feel appreciated, I know that feeling. lol It just sounded in the beginning like you were trying to be selfish.

[egi22]

It was nice talking to you, although you made me angry in the beginning for judging me lol. But, you seem to know what you want.😊 Maybe you have been mistreated by some girls. I've been mistreated by guys, but I still respect them, because I don't generalise.

[ineverpayfordates]

lol sorry. No, I have never been mistreated by girls, quite the opposite. I've had tremendous luck with girls. But tbh I've lost a lot of respect for women ever since I joined GAG and similar sites and actually read how entitled and selfish some of them are when they are free to speak their minds.

[egi22]

haha I get your point. I am glad you've never been mistreated. Yes, you are right, some girls are "princesses", there is no doubt. Let me tell you that some guys on GaG are mean and disrespectful too. I got used to that already lol. And I am here for 3 years, because this is the second account... so, I've seen a lot.

[ineverpayfordates]

yes, that is certainly true. there are a lot of mean men on here and out there, too. What is different though is the entitlement of some women. I mean, no doubt there are piece of shit men who want to use women for sex. but I've never seen a question here on GAG like "She didn't put out on the first date. Should I dump her?". But I've very often seen questions like "He didn't pay. Should I dump him?"... Men know they are assholes and they know it's wrong to use women for sex. They don't ask such questions because they are aware that it's wrong. Women who are bitches and expect to be paid for often times don't even realize that their expectations are wrong, they actually believe that they are entitled to it and that what they expect is right. That is a very striking difference I have observed here on GAG, which is why I have lost so much respect for women.

[egi22]

I get your point, there are some girls like that. But not all of them and you know this very well.

[ineverpayfordates]

yeah I do :) And I'm happy that normal girls like you exist, they make life a lot more enjoyable. :D

[egi22]

Well, thank you! 😊

[ineverpayfordates]

You're welcome. :)

I'm sorry but I have to go now, see you and stay safe. :)

[egi22]

Ok. :)

[MaiNameIsSunshine]

I think so, I approach guys just for kicks when I go out and they seem glad to get the attention.

[HarryJBenton]

Considering that women typically have far superior social skills, it actually makes a lot of sense.

[BPXXBLINKERS]

yes, because if we make the first move and we read you wrong we look like idiots.

[OrangeBoy]

No, no patience for that now.
If she's single and i feel interest, annd if im ready... i just go full power.

[IceCubedude]

well yeah, isn't that obvious, guys are much more likely to get rejected so if a girl shows interest in a clear way it makes our life much easier

[LadyTerror]

That's not surprising at all. I think that most people, regardless of gender, prefer the other person to make the first move.

[UnknownXYZ]

www.court-records.net/.../miles-smirk(c).gif

Well, I think if Nina made the first move, you would be dead.

[Ka_signu04]

It's a huge turn on and I It when the girl makes the first move

[CrystalChild]

Normally I make the first move. But to expect it is just lame XD

[renee26]

I'm way too shy to make a move. and I like it when a guy makes the first move. Means they're in control and I like it

[Joti_Harrison]

So you do you renounce feminism and believe men should "MAN UP" and be in control in a relationship?

[renee26]

nah I'm saying girls can do whatever but when it comes to me I would never I'm just too shy

[Joti_Harrison]

Do you think that guy in the corner you've been eyeing is not shy to approach you too, but he has to summon up courage because he is a man, and he is expected to initiate. I do not believe the trait of courage is something lacking in anybody, everyone can summon it and find it.

I'll ask again, do you renounce feminism that preaches absolute equality or prefer being a traditional woman who is treated specially by being asked out and paid for on dates?

[Salohcin22]

you shouldn't say that. My last girlfriend was extremely shy to the point that she could barely talk to new people, or even just close friends. You'll be at the will of whoever happens to ask you out, which will probably end badly. she asked me out anyways after I chatted with her a bit, and although I didn't ask her number because I missed the chance and worried about being creepy, she found my number and asked me out then. we had a nice year or so, but unfortunately we held completely different core values.

[Ovidiu-Nicolae]

No matter how you take it is more esy for a girl to hunt guys then reverse.
Why?
Some study shows that most girls can be more acurate in reading body language.

[WaterRat]

Nah they ask out. At least 50-50, at least, maybe more. Girls and guys give plenty clues, like good conversation, flirtiness. And if I don't then I'm testing the waters to see if I want to proceed.