Women Haven't Lost Their Femininity: They Never Had A Choice In Defining What It Was

[MazeOfLove]

It used to be that women were defined by the contributions to the family and household. Today women (and some men) are trying to reshape what they are defined by. Today, we have men (and some women) screaming from the rooftops that women have lost their femininity. I call B.S. The previous definition of femininity was one that women of generations past were not able to define, not without being labeled agitators and family killers. This isn't to say that women weren't content or even happy with the roles they had but here's the thing and there's really no way about it: We don't know what we don't know and these women, based specifically and strictly on their lack of access to things that could give them a different perspective, were sheltered. What's more, their husbands and fathers, who benefited from their roles, would just as soon keep the roles of women unchanged.

Today, we criticize women for not being able to be homemakers, cooks, maids, wives, and wage earners at the same time. Perhaps they can be. I know a lot of single mothers who play each of these roles with the exception of wives. Perhaps they can't without significant stress. The real question isn't whether or not they can, it's why they should be expected to and why we choose to criticize them when they try.

Of course, the answers to these questions are simple. They should not be expected to but who else is going to cook and clean and play wife? (Insert eye roll) We criticize them when they try because we feel as though the re-defining of their 'roles' makes life harder for others who, again, benefit from their traditional 'roles'.

There will be a new normal eventually. For starters, today's younger men, to a far greater degree than those who came before them, are growing up with a different understanding and expectation of women's roles. As well, women aren't simply standing pat or lying down when someone challenges their roles, their confidence, etc., they're more emboldened. I love this, by the way. You teach people how to treat you by virtue of what you expect (equality) versus what you accept (inequality).

I just wish that we would stop suggesting that women are redefining feminism, as if they ever really had a choice in how it was defined to begin with.

And to those who will comment that the way it was made the family better, I reply in kind: Better for who?

[Phantomium]

While I have intention to judging anyone for their lifestyle choices and opinions I can't understand the fascination of Westerners (the US more specifically) with charging blindly into the brave new world ideas where everything old must go regardless of it's good qualities and the new must be enforced regardless of consequences. I have no doubt women didn't have it easy in the past, but then again nobody did. The old order was born out of necessity and it worked because it was "natural" - division of labor, specialization, rights-obligations balance, etc. I'm certain it wasn't perfect but much like classical liberalism it worked because it was efficient. And now everyone rushes to redefines femininity, masculinity, genders, roles and everything they can get their hands on without a single though of how thing will change the big picture and humanity's future. Hubris is a dangerous thing and the West is drowning in it while tearing down traditions and ideas that have stood for millennia.

[MazeOfLove]

My only comment here would be that just because traditions and ideas have stood for millennia doesn't mean that they are/were good ideas.

[Phantomium]

There are no perfect solutions. There are only solutions that work better or worse then the others. What if the new ones bring along horrible consequences? Everyone can already see people dividing themselves, the fabric of society tearing itself apart. Shouldn't at least we stop for a moment to consider what will follow or are we changing things just for the sake of change.

[MazeOfLove]

But is the fabric of society tearing itself apart because some people just don't like the changes? That doesn't make the changes wrong. I liken my view to the power of freedom and why so many people will fight to the death for it. While war tears countries apart, kills thousands, etc., people ultimately partake in it because they believe in their cause. The importance of standing up for who you are (women in this case) is more important than considering what will follow. If women stopped seeking equal pay, etc. for the sake of society, they would be living the exact society that is denying them the equality--this isn't right.

[Phantomium]

"The importance of standing up for who you are [...] is more important than considering what will follow." I should frame this. A fitting quote to end a civilization.

[MazeOfLove]

Perhaps. And many cities, countries and people have been willing to fight to the end in order to preserve their rights. It's easy to tell people to hold off on defending their rights when we have more or better rights than them.

[Phantomium]

This is the great difference between the East and West. Not religion, not ideologies, not economies. The West believes the good of the individual outweighs the good of the society. The East believes the good of society always outweigh the good of an individual and everyone should be willing to sacrifice for the better of everyone. I guess we'll soon find out who's right. :)

[MazeOfLove]

Agree. And I appreciate you for having diverging views and not turning into a complete child while going through them. Not everyone on this site can do that.

[nalaa]

I think though to talk about the individual when you're talking about half the population is a bit misguided

[Phantomium]

@nalaa Admittedly I might have diverged from the theme of the myTake. The idea was rapid changes in society. Whether it's women reassessing their position and role or the future of the family or transgenders wanting their own bathrooms. While I'm all for women being happier I don't like lots of changes in short time spans. Ask any statistician - foreseeing the outcomes when having many moving variables becomes a living nightmare.

[BlueCoyote]

Since you're from "the east" (whatever that means), you might know that the inhabitants of Tibet and Bhutan have been practicing the social and political form of a matriarchy for thousands of years. In Tibet, some parts of the country even have polyandry.
If you'd ask them whether they like their system, they would most certainly say yes. It has been there for hundreds or thousands of years. It obviously works very, very well when women are in charge.
This doesn't mean I condone matriarchies. What it means is that you're arguing from a perspective of ignorance (I'm not saying that you are ignorant). If you've only ever known one thing, of course you think it has worked well. It's like when you ask a farmer who doesn't know about modern technology "how is it to use oxen to plow a field?" The farmer will tell you that it's tough but great. The oxen do a fine job. When you show him a tractor, he might get very scared at first and call it satanic. That doesn't mean it is, though.

[Phantomium]

@BlueCoyote And if the tractor leaves him unemployable we call it progress. That doesn't mean everyone would benefit from it. :)
by the way, I'm from Eastern Europe, Balkans to be more specific. And while we had plenty of Soviet-style socialism and enforced equality people still hold on to much of the old ways - men and women alike. It might not be perfect but at least there is a sense of calmness, understanding and cooperation in the society.

[BlueCoyote]

But at what price does this "calmness" come? Do you think it is worth it if it means that half of the population can't really live the life they want to live?
By the way: I come from western Europe and I would say my society is also pretty "calm". These big social fights are mostly happening in America because their society is so polarized between extremely conservative and very progressive people. Social coherence doesn't come from having a patriarchy, it comes from having a tight-knit society. What I mean by that is that people still feel "close" to each other. Neighbors help each other and those kind of things. In the US, this is more difficult because the mentality of individualism is VERY strong (too strong, in my opinion). Here in Europe, we have more solidarity and a feeling of social "togetherness". However, this feeling exists in very conservative societies (say Poland) and in very progressive societies (say Norway).

[dragonfly6516]

I grew up in a home where the man did most of the cooking, because he was better at it, plain and simple. My father also did most of the cleaning because my mothers job was more demanding, more stressful, and took longer hours. Of course, not the situation is flipped and she's just being a lazy botch... but that's off topic.
The man I'm with now was raised by a mother who literally owns a cleaning business, and she cooks a dinner every night from scratch. So my man is clean freak who loves to cook, just like my father.
How are the men who literally enjoy cooking and cleaning supposed to do what they love if other men are trying to force outdated ideal of women onto them and calling these men derogatory things like "submissive", "hen-pecked", "weak", or "not manly"?
And yes, some people DO enjoy cleaning, because it cane be very therapeutic.

[MazeOfLove]

They're supposed to ignore close minded people who associate their gender with supposed roles. I'm sorry he's ridiculed and judged for this. People can be close minded.

[dragonfly6516]

Oh he isn't :-) He's a very confident dominant personality type that gives no fucks, and people respect him. But others aren't so strong in their self image, and make themselves an easy target.

[BlueCoyote]

I totally agree. I was also raised by parents who shared the work pretty evenly. My mom did do a little more of the house chores but my dad always spent a lot of time with us children, which is also commendable I think. For example on the weekends when my mom wanted to have some time for herself, he would play board games with us or take us for a walk in the forest or to the zoo etc.. He was also really good at reading goodnight stories for hours and hours (we always wanted more ;-)).
This is an important part of feminism that all the morons and male crybabies who feel suppressed by women don't even understand: feminism didn't just enhance women's rights, it also enhances men's situation by questioning all those old, stuck-up gender roles. Nobody should feel obligated to act a certain way just because they have a penis or a vagina. People should shape their life in a way that makes them happy.

[Waffles731]

'I grew up in a home where the man did most of the cooking, because he was better at it, plain and simple. '
As an Italian American I'm expected to be able to cook well, if a man can't cook, well he's nowhere near as manly as he could be, real men can cook

[coachTanthony]

s.quickmeme.com/.../...6839d918113101eb30d7baa.jpg

[hellionthesagereborn]

First and foremost, the reason they could not define "femininity" is because its biological. Gender roles are nothing more then biology driven mechanisms. Unless of course you want to argue that having a womb and breasts for women is not biological but rather a social construct? Further more through out all of history there has been greater leeway for women then there have been for men. See women could do for the most part what ever they wanted, if they wished to work they could if they wanted to stay at home they could. For men there was no choice, they acted like the stereotypical male (funny you don't mention that part, where male roles are set in stone, I mean if we are going to go by the idea of the blank slate (which of course is completely wrong, provably by science and statistics) then this would be equally applicable to men which as any one could point out suffer a far more strict standard on there behavior then women do) or they would be exiled or killed. So this idea that gender is a social construct (even as all evidence shows its biological) that there is a blank slate (yet every one for no particular reason decided to follow these gender roles that do nothing but make them "miserable"(again despite all evidence to the contrary) and that it was all evil men who did it (despite the fact that men suffer to a far greater degree in most every area of life and thus would have no incentive to screw themselves over while making things better for women but some how its still bad for women even though statistically in all areas of life they are better off then men because "reasons") is quite honestly the most idiotic idea ever created. The most basic of interactions with women shows that they and men are different and that's before you get into the finer details. In fact your argument itself is an example of our innate biases and tendencies, men protect women so much so that they where very easily duped into believing that they themselves where the enemy (as these same men worked themselves to death to provide the woman with what ever she wanted and fought and died in order to protect her from harm) and needed to be punished (for expecting women to hold to some kind of standard as men where held to). As for this system being better, this is an objective fact, and for whom? Well children for one, they are far better off in these kind of systems then any other, and of course women themselves according to statistical data, they are happier.

[IceCubedude]

The world is going in the wrong direction , women are changing into something that men are hating, and how that affects us? well in short we are the ones marrying them so when they screw up by default we screw up as well.

It seems to me that the west is fighting to remove any trace of old traditions regardless of how good or bad they are, if women refuse to be women/mothers and family carers anymore then we have a serious issue because that means children are growing without a mother, husbands are not satfisfied, and women feel empty and nothing can fill that void that they feel.

Men and women are different, physically and mentally, they have their own ways of dealing with kids, they have different wants and needs claiming that they're the same is naive and ignorant at best , and it shows in what they ask for in a partner.

Femininity is defined by men, we are the ones who can spot that femininity and we look for it when we want to commit to a woman, its not something a woman notices so to her it makes no sense, but to us it makes perfect sense.

You are a dating coach, your goal is to maintain a battlefield of men and women, to step up your game and teach other men to step up theirs, and to do that women must be sophisticated and make no sense which you are ecouraging, you are encouraging a world in which men and women dont get along and they need to resort to games and tactics to date each other , something that never happened in the past.

There is no right or wrong there is what works and what doesn't and we can all agree that with lower divorce rates, a more decent generation and better family values and of course gentlemen, the older generation is much better than ours, they were part of traditional families with traditional mothers and fathers and their ways worked.

what we have todays are women demanding men with money and status and good looks while they are not offering anything in return besdies sex (if the man is lucky) and her job, but thats not enough to keep a family together, this is why the divorce rate is so high and cheating is the new trend.

[MazeOfLove]

I'm actually not a dating coach, I'm a relationship coach which is about harnessing equal and authentic relationships. Dating coaches focus on dating specifically.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

Pretty dam much.

[roamer]

Men “Haven't Lost Their” Masculinity: “They Never Had A Choice In Defining What It Was” “Today, we have” women (and some men) “screaming from the rooftops that” men “have lost their” masculinity. “I call B. S. The previous definition of” masculinity “was one that” men “of generations past were not able to define” “We don't know what we don't know and these” men, “based specifically and strictly on their lack of access” to independent lives and thought freedom from society, families and mostly women. “What's more, their” wives and mothers, “who benefited from their roles, would just as soon keep the roles of” men “unchanged.” “Today, we criticize” men “for not being able to” change a tire, bow down when spoken to, accept that they may be jailed for not keeping their wife happy, be homemakers, cooks, maids, hub-wives, and mostly “wage earners at the same time.” “The real question isn't whether or not they can, it's why they should be expected to and why we choose to criticize them when they” don’t “try.” And decide to say the hell with it and check out of society and do all the things that a freed man wants to do for himself. “Of course, the answers to these questions are simple. They should not be expected to but who else is going to cook and clean and play” hub-wife? (Insert eye roll)” “ We criticize them when they” stay single, become PUAs, isolationists, go their own way, drop out of society “because we feel as though the re-defining of their 'roles' makes life harder for others who, again, benefit from their traditional 'roles'.”
“There will be a new normal eventually. For starters, today's younger” women, “to a far greater degree than those who came before them, are growing up with a different understanding and expectation of “men's participation in marriage, family, and society in general.. “As well,” men “aren't simply standing pat or lying down when someone challenges their” their new found independent freedom. “they're (the men) more emboldened” to do all the things for themselves. “I love this, by the way. You teach people how to treat you by virtue of what you” don’t “expect or desire. “I just wish that we would stop suggesting that” men “are redefining” masculinity, “as if they ever really had a choice in how it was defined to begin with.

[MazeOfLove]

Lol! So women made the laws and wrote the bible and were the stronger of the two genders? Got it. Thanks for playing. Be sure to tip your bartenders!

[roamer]

Why was the below woman's opinion removed? can't figure it--censorship?:
Anonymous
(25-29)
11h
No, women HAVE lost their femininity. Women were always the ones who defined themselves and took on the roles that fit with it. I mean, women have a natural innate behavior to act a certain way, so do men. It wasn't men who "forced" women to act like that, they just did. I know you want to blame all your failures and shortcomings on men, but you just can't. It makes you seem foolish.
1|15
7|1

[MazeOfLove]

Yeah, I truly don't know, nor do I condone it.

[MazeOfLove]

@Aconfusedguy90 thanks for sharing with me how to be a man. I was confused about what it took.. Signed: aconfusedguy90

[Aconfusedguy90]

Look just be a rock, take the good with the bad, I know western values place so much emphasis on being a winner but screw that bullsh*t, it's really a girls mentality, man must be humble, strong, unshaken deal with women like this next time they give you problem think they can't help it it's there nature

[PlacentaSalad]

The question I have is why are we expected to accept the new generation of liberated women but they don't accept men who are not masculine enough? There's a reason why so many men look at the women around them and see just other men but with ovaries. And there's a reason why so many women look around them and see nothing but men that might as well be women. Everything is shifting and what it's going to come down to are women realizing that they absolutely hate being the breadwinners. That they hate dating "pussies." That men are not manly anymore and this is because women are taking that role for themselves. Men don't know how to be men anymore, or if they do, they don't want to because they're realizing that women are competing with them in everything and that there's just no point in even trying.

Since it's drilled into their minds by feminism that femininity is inherently weaker, of course they're going to try to change the definition of it. And I'm not even referring to gender roles, you don't have to clean and cook and be a housewife to be recognized as feminine. There's plenty of women who don't exactly have femininity but are also housewives at the same time. These days it's all about rebelling against what used to be because for some reason, women have convinced themselves that they're nothing but slaves otherwise.

The problem is that, by redefining femininity, they're reforming it into what might as well just be masculinity. So in a way, yes, they have lost their femininity because femininity cannot be masculinity.

What people don't understand is that the majority of people that are complaining are actually millennials or just people who never actually lived through the 1950s or earlier. They have no idea how it was back then since they didn't experience it firsthand. It's obvious that women now are not the same back then, but if everything is apparently fine, why are so many younger men wanting it to return to how it once was when they have no idea how it truly was? It's because they want something different, something that might work better for them. Women like to pretend that society was not tough on men back then, only for them, but now society is even tougher on men and easier for women and that's just not fair.

You also have to remember that ancient civilizations, like Sparta, failed because women pretty much ruled that society.

[Noxifer626]

I mean, being fucked over by Macedon after a pyrrhic victory is a pretty big deal but yeah, it had to be the fault of those crazy feminists right?

[PlacentaSalad]

Feminism was not necessarily a concept for Spartan society because its women had privilege and power to begin with. Women of Sparta were actually treated way better than women of other societies and cultures, hence why they could actually own and sell property without the permission of a male. They may have lost over 25% of their soldiers in the war, but Sparta was bound to collapse regardless. Spartan boys were taken at the age of 7 to be trained militarily and that's where they lived their entire lives. The military training meant that boys were much more disciplined to legislation whereas women, who were described as being very aggressive and obnoxious towards the males, were not, so women were more inclined to disobey the laws. This increased crime rate and poverty and there was also a decline in birth rates to name a few societal issues.

Aristotle wrote in his book, Politics, why Sparta failed and it was basically because of how their society was run. He said the city was

[PlacentaSalad]

(continued)
destroyed because of a lack of "manpower." This is interpreted to mean that since so many of their Spartiates died in battle, there was nobody to protect the city, but that's not exactly what Aristotle meant if people read the book. Lack of manpower actually meant lack of male leadership and rulership.

[Aconfusedguy90]

Because men are not little b*tches and aren't suppose to whine over women's complications but oh look mr western 'I have rights' is crying because women aren't also treating him like a women

[Aconfusedguy90]

Look women say sh*t from time to time your job is to be a rock and not get upset by this

[I-am-a-nobody]

Sorry, but the way it was DID make the family better for everyone (including the women).

Now women are straining to 'have it all". And while women generally desire to find a "soulmate", they are MUCH less likely these days to have a lifetime relationship with a man. Is this really progress?

So, now she is the V. P. of Marketing of ABC Widgets, but she has no one to share it with but her dozen cats.

I could be wrong, but I think most women would pass on that.

It's a rotten shame that our feminist driven media tells women they shouldn't fill a traditionally feminine role, like being a mother, because such menial tasks somehow 'diminish" them.
I loved my mom, she was mother and not a whole lot else, even though she could have been. I love my wife, too. She pretty smart (smart enough to marry me, ha ha). But her main roles are wife and mother and that's just fine with my entire family, including my wife.

Just remember...
While women seek to be feminine, just remember they MIGHT just find it in a traditional role.

[BluesBoy]

Well, I don't really care what Femininity is and if women don't like the definition and according to your "relativist" point of view then they should fight their own battle and write that kind of my takes, not you as a man.

That being said, your initial postulate can be challenged, I mean it is an highly relativist point of view that you have meaning the definition of Feminity might change through history and depending of who define it.

I tend to disagree with that, the definition of Femininity should not change at all wheter it is define by men or women, the essence of a concept does not change depending on whom research this definition. Of course, it's supposed to really seek "the truth" or in other word the real essence of the concept and not a false one which is going to benefit you.

According to you concept that are link to women should be define by women, those link to men should be define by men and so on. That is not how it works and how you research "the truth" of a concept.

[Anonymous]

Better for the children. Children do better statistically when they're in the care of a family member while they're young. They're much healthier if breastfed, and breastfed kids statistically have a higher average IQ score. It has always been a woman's role to look after young children.

As for a man, our role mostly comes a little later in their development. So what's best for the kids is for the Father to provide. for the family so that the Mother can stay home and look after them.

For me and my girlfriend, this is what we've done with 2 kids (and we'll have more). At the moment I work 80 hours a week. I have no spare time in the week and I live for the weekends. She breastfeeds, which means I can't help with feeding. This is harder on us as parents. It would be easier for js to formula feed, put them into daycare and for us both to work. That's not what's best for the kids, that's what's best for us. Which is why we don't do it. What's best for the kids matters more.

You only have to look at the state of modern relationship between men and women, the high rate of divorce and single parenthood (statistically very damaging to children) to realise that the modern way is bad for the family, that's why people talk about the old way being better.

[BlueCoyote]

This is an exceptionally good MyTake. Kudos!
It's really a shame that so many young people these days (especially men) are so freaking conservative and outmoded again. They talk and think like people 200 years ago. And they even have the brazenness to go around claiming that women "loved" and "enjoyed" being treated like dogs. Because... who doesn't love cleaning after another person all day long only to be told in the evening by that very person that you're too stupid to have an opinion about world affairs and that sex is basically a duty, right?

[Stone_Fizzlebeef]

Is that why feminists get along with Islamists so much?

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

They're treated more like dogs now, where have you been?

[Aconfusedguy90]

No they weren't treated like dogs, women have there own powers and also men do, naturally, when you start trying to remove the natural tendencies and make the whole of society masculine feminism occurs

[BlueCoyote]

@Stone_Fizzlebeef Show me ONE SINGLE respectable feminist who gets along with islamists. What a load of intellectual diarrhea. It's actually the opposite: people LIKE YOU get along with islamists quite well. Just look at the Republican politicians in the red states. They yell and scream about the sharia and islamism, only to turn around and implement their very own theocracy. Like the Republican politician who said there was such a thing as "excusable rape" or the city government that thought it's totally okay to put a huge monument of the 10 commandments on public grounds but when a muslim organization wanted to do the exact same thing with rules from the koran, they got their panties in a knot. Right-wingers constantly swear about muslims and portray themselves as some kind of saviors of women's rights only to turn around and go: "yeah anyway uh, women shouldn't have jobs, shouldn't disagree with their husbands, shouldn't earn as much as men etc."

[BlueCoyote]

@mostwomenshouldstfu Read carefully, that's not what I wrote.

[BlueCoyote]

@Aconfusedguy90 You just think it's natural because it's the only thing you know and you obviously haven't cared about to put yourself in the shoes of women. There are societies on this planet that have been practicing a matriarchy for hundreds or even thousands of years and it has worked out very well for them. So the people from those societies may easily turn your claim around and tell you that their system is in fact the most natural.
Besides, whether something is natural or not has no bearing on whether it is ethically justifiable. Wanting to fuck any hot chick is also "natural" for most guys. That doesn't mean rape is ethically legitimate.

[Aconfusedguy90]

A Matriarchy would work through women using men's weakness to dominate society albeit in a less obvious way , I would say Russia is a matriarchy but with typical gender roles

[Aconfusedguy90]

Matriarchy would be using a women's beauty to manipulate men, or for example using a women's perceived innocence to make men sympathise with the women, come to think about it , almost everything a man does is for a women, so the world is prettt female dominated, just not in the same definition you have which would be women behaving as men , I. e the bread winners

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

How about you think carefully about what I wrote. Then reevaluate your statement on young people having "outmoded" values.

Feminists go out of their way to defend Islamists. Because it gets them laid. The extremists are the ones they don't get along with eventually, that's where feminist values which are rooted in Western culture and Islam collide. But it's usually not until feminists are black and blue from engaging in these relationships that they see the incompatibility. The masculine women can literally take the beating better than the more feminine ones can. That's one reason and really no surprise feminists have any interest or care about feminine women. Feminists revel when their better looking, more feminine "sisters" suffer. I see a lot of parallels between feminism and Islam. They both have high recruitment rates and high dropout rates.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

I don't know where you get this idea that matriarchies are some successful example of a society. They're weak. The few existing today continue to do so because their patriarchal neighbors ALLOW it. These are societies where women use sex to defuse tension and thus you have half your society satisfied and lazy as hell who don't have the same drive Patriarchs do to improve things. Any matriarch you look at will be woefully behind in progress, and that's why most of them didn't exist for very long in whatever naturally isolated habitat they found themselves. Primitive forms of Patriarchs would find them and literally rape them into submission. You'll find a lot of African cultures are largely Matriarchal based.

[Stone_Fizzlebeef]

@BlueCoyote I'm not right wing or Republican. But just off the top of my head: Swedish (feminist capital of the world, mind you) dignitaries wearing hijabs. Marine Le Pen told them to go fuck themselves and she's not even elected. Hell, Sweden in general since Bernie and Hillary both look at that country as the feminist/social golden standard. They allowed the country to be overrun with Islamists and routinely ignore when their people are raped. Doesn't look good for their narrative. Religion of peace and all that.

If that's not good enough: Angela Merkel. Another moron that has allowed her country to be invaded. France is literally on fire right now. Justin Trudeau, infamous for his capitulation to Islam. Should I go on? And for the record: I don't care for Islam or Christianity. But whatever, I don't care if you want to remain deluded. Feminists (like Obongo) have imported a literal rape culture to the West despite all their bitching about patriarchy and rape culture.

[BlueCoyote]

@mostwomenshouldstfu I'm sorry but you have a rather ridiculous view of feminists. You seem to believe that feminists are some kind of overweight, manly looking dykes with purple hair. This tells me you've never actually spoken to any feminist and just looked at memes on the internet. My girlfriend is a feminist and very feminine (as a Korean girl probably even more feminine than many western girls) and I'm definitely not a muslim. Now, this may only be an anecdotal evidence but I know enough other women who call themselves feminists and none of them dates a muslim or has ever dated a muslim or looks anything like the kind of person you seem to think of when you hear "feminism".

[BlueCoyote]

@Stone_Fizzlebeef Yes of course of course. You're not right-wing at all, you're just a completely brainwashed Fox news viewer. Please excuse the confusion.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

"Seems" is the operative word. They don't necessarily have all those characteristics, it's usually a la carte. And you forgot bitchy, overly aggressive, emotionally charged, hypocritical, and most of all, slutty. Maybe you should read about "lipstick feminists". Feminine feminists typically turn out to be skanks sooner or later. Just a matter of time before being a breadwinner wears on them and their hypergamous nature kicks causing them to stray because dammit, they work hard and deserve more than just the same ole' dick every day.

Be careful about your lady though. If you out earn her and your divorce laws are no fault, she can cheat on you, file for divorce, and still get you to pay alimony. So it's better if you hang back and fuck around so when she does eventually cheat on you, you won't have to pay alimony or even lose much. In fact, she'll be the one to pay you if she makes more.

[Aconfusedguy90]

@mostwomenshouldstfu that's women's nature bro you can't be angry about that

[Aconfusedguy90]

@mostwomenshouldstfu look women are always going to cause men stress and difficulty, it goes back to Adam and Eve, but take it on the chin, it's our job as men not to be shaken by this behaviour and it's only western moral standards which cause the anger towards women's nature.

[Berethor]

@BlueCoyote yes how can they claim that many women are okey with be treated like that?

cdn.psychologytoday.com/.../...20chart%20image.png

[BlueCoyote]

@Berethor You're gonna post a survey of BDSM lovers and use it as 1:1 argument for social roles? Talk about logic fallacies...

[Aconfusedguy90]

Lol who posted a bdsm site survey, these people have issues, bdsm people are like transsexuals etc, it's not relevant to real people, bdsm is a world of fantasy, otherwise we would see guys walking down the street with women on leashes.

[Bandit74]

Well men never really had control over how masculinity is defined either.

Personally, I don't want kids so I don't really need or want a house wife. As long as the bills, house chores, and yard work is split up in way that seems fair, I am happy. Having a girlfriend who is a great cook and enjoys doing it would be a major bonus, but I don't view it as a requirement or measure of femininity.

The only conventionally feminine traits I really care about are modesty and having a pleasant demeanor. So basically someone who isn't loud/ bitchy and doesn't dress in revealing clothes or sleep around.

[Jager66]

"Better for who?"

It was better for women, better for their children, and better for society as a whole, that doesn't mean the ways of the past would be the best ways for now. Your post is absolutely riddled with falsehoods, good effort but very poor take.

"For starters, today's younger men, to a far greater degree than those who came before them, are growing up with a different understanding and expectation of women's roles."

This is one of the few things your got right but your conclusion about the changes is wrong. The biggest changes for women in the future will be the loss of power and privilege as they finally become equal with men. It will be a bitter pill for many of them to swallow but it will happen, thankfully.

[MazeOfLove]

Opinions vary.

[Jager66]

yes they do, some are false while others are not though.

[MazeOfLove]

Opinions, by definition, cannot be false. Try and keep up. You talk about falsehoods and you see them as such based on your views. As any educated person will tell you, and this is a direct quote: there is no need to argue against opinions when they are recognized as self-reports rather than as claims about the real world. GaG calls this MyTake because, guess what, it's my take. And you have your take. Good day.

[Sometimes12]

I'm sorry @MazeOfLove but that just doesn't make any sense.

It's my opinion that we live on the back of a giant turtle and that turtle lives on the back of an even bigger turtle, which also lives on the back of an even bigger turtle.. it's turtles all the way down. AND I'm 100% right because it's my opinion, just ask all the "educated" people.

LOL

[Anonymous]

Thank you. The men now complain about how they have it bad and want to go back to traditional ways, but don't care about how women had it worse back then.

[CancerianMan81]

Sure we do care and another thing the way that it has always been is what makes men happy

[applesandoranges22]

You werent the ones being drafted into wars like world war 2 and Vietnam. you obviously are oblivious to that and any problem that women had to face would be overshadowed by what those people who were sent to war went through. You see that? 2 can play at that ''poor me we had it worse!'' card. girls had gotten special treatment and were always seen as innocent, but the downside to that was you were 2nd because men thought women couldnt handle things on their own. Men had more rights, however, they had no choice when being in a draft and were sent to the worst wars in history. Some were brought back dead, some were brought back mentally damaged and others picked up heroin addictions after being treated with meds in the army. you see where im going? no one had it better really. You had your pros and cons and the same for us. Its the SAME thing today. The question is, if you are willing to admit that and stop overlooking things.

[applesandoranges22]

@CancerianMan81 you dont have to prove anything to people like this. a lot of men sure do care, and her overgeneralized statement shows just how ungrateful she is to the fact that men have stood and fought for womens rights and have respect for them. She is almost as bad as the minorities who act as if all white people dont care when they also marched for their rights. They are all the same and easy to read when you break it down.

[Opinion Owner]

Firstly, wars that MEN created. Secondly, due to rules that men created. Thirdly, wars were not part of everyday life.

You act as if women caused that life upon you, like men did for women. No, it was between you men.. And the only reason women got any rights is because it was more useful for society for women to work as well. But, nice try...

[JuliaHarris]

Agreed - but men also had it worse back then and I don't think enough people respect that. Given the choice between sitting at home baking cakes and going down an asbestos filled mine I know what I would pick.

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 if you're using the war argument what about the millions of women who were raped or murdered as part of wars that men created?

[applesandoranges22]

well opinion owner, your logic is heavily flawed. First of all, the men who create all these rules are a small minority and do not represent the overall male population just like the male rapist and murders do not represent the entire male population. Just like tha majority of women dont represent child abusers as the majority are women, but that does not make me see every women in this light nor do I blame women. you just want to find people to blame, which i find pathetic. The majority of males are decent, working classed people with goals, a future and families just like you. In your logic, we can say ''black crime is caused by black people, why should we feel bad for them? they are the ones shooting eachother'' you are just a bigot and you can be classed with the same as racists after all, its the same type of hatred. if Im not sure if you knew this, but being a man does not somehow make you responsible for something another man did, we are all individuals

[applesandoranges22]

@Blonde401 men didn't create wars, a FEW group of men did. There is a big difference. People often have this image of being a man= you are responsible for the actions of others. In this logic, I can say I shouldn't feel bad for you if a teenager beat you up because the majority of child abusers are women and in this logic I can simply say, you deserved it. This is the same idiotic you and OP use, and if you haven't noticed that while there are people in the army who have raped, they do not take away from the hundreds of millions of army men who put their life on the line to protect what was there's in the biggest war of all time (world war 2) a lot of people died to stop hitler in his conquest, and here you are acting ungrateful by saying ''well what about?'' the most people who were raped in war or in any circumstance for that matter are men and you are undermining it because the people who commit the crimes are the same sex. your thought process is so primitive.

[applesandoranges22]

oh and OP, war sure was everyday life, as wars went on for years on end and when they had came back some were dead, wounded, badly damaged with mental illness drug addiction or having their homes taken away. If you are implying for ONE minute that this was somehow better than being a 2nd class citizen then you clearly are living in a bubble. Ask anybody who has been in a war if they would have traded that for your position, which is like a walk in a park compared to the things that they went through.

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 men/a few men still = men. And men going to war doesn't cancel out the raping and horror they committed while they went to war.

You don't know me. My family fought in ww2 and my grandfather was used as slave labour during ww2. Your argument is invalid, don't use war as an argument. Your thought process is primative. Men went to war! That cancels out everything shitty any man has ever done? Absolute nonsense.

[applesandoranges22]

@Blonde401 so in your logic, if some blondes do a bad act I can say a few blonde still still=blondes and that somehow gives me the right to blame you for the actions of other blondes. or I can say all blondes are stupid, due to a few bad apples, like you. This is why I call you primitive and you got your feelings hurt. You aren't capable of using logic therefor you got you threw a tantrum and called me the same names I called you, like a child. your families personal stories does not exempt you of your idiocy nor does it somehow make you knowledgeable. I never said the men that fought takes away from those who were victims of war crime, but YOU took away the fact of the men who put their life on the line by bringing it up in your initial reply. you are a condescending moron who is ungrateful to the fact that the majority of soldiers put their life on the line to protect people like you.

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 you're a special kind of stupid aren't you? Where did I say all men = bad? I didn't. I said your logic is flawed. Nothing more.

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 you're the one who generalised = "you weren't the ones being drafted".

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 were you drafted into world war 2 and Vietnam yourself there flower? No? Then have a seat.

And if you're using that as an argument what about all the women who worked their arses off to keep these countries from falling to their knees while the men were away? And the ones that rebelled? And the ones in resistances?

We get it. You hate women. Just say that and move on with your life.

[applesandoranges22]

@Blonde401 and I was just stating facts. War compared to what happened back home was a walk in the park. this is a obvious fact and anyone who does not admit it is just biased like you. If it were the other way around and women were the ones sent to war I would be stating the truth, you however would flip flop for the sole reason of it always being the mans fault. People like you are a sad case.

[Blonde401]

@applesandoranges22 all you're doing is slinging mud and insulting me so you're clearly not worth having a debate with. You clearly hate women and that's all this rant was about.

[applesandoranges22]

@Blonde401 You clearly can't read. I am not the one grouping an entire sex and undermining their hardships by saying things like ''oh well since they are the same sex you are accountable'' you are the one who groups men into one category, and you are the man hater. I find it hilarious when someone is proven wrong, then they try and flip the argument and self project their problems.

[Love_Is_Eternal]

@applesandoranges22 She's another crazy feminist who has been brainwashed.

[applesandoranges22]

@Love_Is_Eternal people like that are mentally sick in their head.

[CancerianMan81]

People go on about who had it worse then the other who gives a fuck if people can't accept their fucking past and move on then people are still going to have a problem

[MazeOfLove]

@CancerianMan81 Can't disagree with this point.

[applesandoranges22]

@CancerianMan81 its good to move on, but its not good to ignore the past because we can learn from our history and our mistakes. People saying things like ''women had it worse'' are taking things for granted, as it really isn't true. My point wasn't really to compare, but to tell people how lucky they were to be forced off into war/

[applesandoranges22]

*lucky they were to not be forced into war

[CancerianMan81]

@applesandoranges22 well I'm just sick and tired of all this goddamn fighting men and women have been doing it's been 2or3 years all just to make a point what fucking point there is no point in fucking arguing all it does is make you look like a fucking idiot

[applesandoranges22]

@CancerianMan81 People like you really help the situation though. People who are tired of the arguing can help put an end to it. There are however, people like me who will say the truth. its not like im making it a men vs women thing because trust me, If it was the other way around and it were women being sent to war in the past, then I would have told the truth then. Its more about stating the truth rather then making it men vs women for me.

[Nyx_85]

Women have worked since ancient times. It was really only the wealthy that could afford the wives to stay home. And even then those wives often had the duties of being in charge of the help. The ideal of the 'housewife' really didn't come about until after the industrial revolution. But somehow since then we've gotten into our heads that this is how it has always been.

Given the opportunity many women have made contributions to society throughout history. It has been proven through studies that when treated the same girls do just as well as boys in mathematics yet they do worse when they are told they aren't as good.

[Phoenix98]

Really so what about cultures were women were the true rulers?

And no offense but that's kind of a load of BS if anything women have lost their femininity, women have always decided and defined themselves what femininity was and took on the roles that fit with it.

And like @Anonymous women have a natural innate behavior to act a certain way, just like men. It wasn't men who "forced" women to act like that, they just did.

We men never forced women to act femininely and women never forced men to act masculine it's just how we are it's own innate behavior and instinct.

[tyber1]

Women weren't kept sheltered, they were kept safe. They didn't have the same rights as men did because men literally fought and died to get those rights. Women haven't had the right to vote for very long, but men didn't have that right for much longer than they did and when men wanted that right they got it at great risk to themselves. The women's rights movement didn't gain full steam until industrial labor became safer. Women in general didn't want to vote if it meant that they'd have to fight and die in a war, they didn't want to work in a factory where they might accidentally get their hand sliced off, that's not to say there weren't exceptions to that but that's how it was. I don't buy into this idea that women were treated entirely like cattle, perhaps when it came to marriage that was the case but not with regard to the division of labor and rights that come with being a full citizen. Women were (in general) content with their roles until the cost/benefit no longer favored them.

[Berethor]

Good point, and many feminists still want to have rights without duties.

[tyber1]

@Berethor I'm not gonna pretend everything was peachy for them either but they had a better deal than the men of their times had. But even today men are discriminated against and if it doesn't hurt women then nobody tries to change it. We still have to enlist for the draft, family court is stacked against us, and nobody cares until someone suggests that we make things more equal, then people get upset because the idea of losing any of women in a war is just oh so much more tragic than when it was just men. Women want things to be equal, until it means that they're gonna have to do something that is disadvantageous to themselves.

[Stone_Fizzlebeef]

Better for the children who by and large grew up to be stable, contributing members of society. Children of single mothers are the most disadvantaged in life and very often end up in prison. Husbands and fathers had a shit deal, too, even though your feminist programming won't allow you to admit that.

Husbands and fathers were subjected to years of soul-killing labor and jobs they hated. These sacrifices were made to provide for their wives and children because years ago before the industrial revolution, being a wide and mother was a full time job. No washing machine, no electric stove or oven, no indoor plumbing. It wasn't some patriarchal conspiracy to keep women sheltered, life was just that difficult.

Also, women are trying to take on masculine roles (and fucking themselves up in the process), hence the accusations of lost femininity. Doesn't bother me, though. Makes it easy to keep them at a distance.

[asheslee]

Thanks for a great read! I will be honest, however, and tell you that I hate the word "Feminism," though I am often called a "feminist." I am simply a woman who is not afraid to share her opinion. This should not make me a default part of a movement that I never signed-up for in the first place. I also hate the stigma associated with "feminism" and "feminist." This is part of the reason I reject both labels. Opinionated women are not all alike and the fact that it is socially acceptable to group us all into one category, "feminists," is sad. I look forward to the day when we will all be recognized for our uniqueness just like our male counterparts.

[Anonymous]

Better for who? The answer is everyone, and especially children. It is proven that women are less happy and fullfilled today than they were 50 years ago, and men are certainly less satisfied with them. But the biggest victims of the "modernization of women" are their children, most of whom are raised today by childcare workers who don't care about them the way a mother does. That affects everyone, directly or indirectly.

No, women don't have a choice in how femininity is defined. Nobody does. Femininity and masculinity were defined a long time ago by nature, period. They cannot be redefined. Thinking otherwise is very naive.

[MazeOfLove]

It's easy to say women were happier 50 years ago when their scope was limited--they didn't know the possibilities that women know today. Interesting how women's views of their roles and desires and capabilities changed once they started seeing the world from different lens, eh?

I have read (and conducted) several surveys, by the way, that conclude today's women are happier. The thing about surveys, of course, is that there are so many of them around the same question that show different results and thus are rarely conclusive.

We can redefine feminism so long as we don't see it as strictly attributed to nature. It's a mindset, a culture, how we collectively regard women and their roles/capabilities.

And if children are the victims than both mothers and fathers are the culprits. They were both responsible for the conception and they both have awareness of the world they are bringing the child into.

[Opinion Owner]

You keep saying "feminism" when I think you mean femininity. Am I wrong?

Men and women parent differently. Children benefit equally but differently from both. Mothers can't be fathers and fathers cannot be mothers. Today children get far less motherly parenting than they need. Men and women are different. They love differently. They are fulfilled by different things. Today we seem to always be trying to make them the same and have the same expectations of both. It's becoming ridiculous. We are different and that will never change, no matter how badly we want it to.

It doesn't take a study or a survey to see how women have been harmed by today's world and the expectations placed on them by other women and themselves. Every woman I have ever known who drops her children off at daycare on the way to work every day regrets it, not because someone tells her she should but because she knows instinctively that it's wrong for her children.

[MazeOfLove]

I like the argument/point but I would disagree on one big point. Men and women have differences, yes. But the differences in their parenting styles isn't so much about nature as much as it is about historical social trends/acceptances that have defined role distinctions which lead to men and women playing the parts they play. If men were to raise children on an island by themselves, it would take awhile but they'd eventually adapt the same instincts that women have.

[Opinion Owner]

I strongly disagree with that notion. Men and women parent the way they do because it comes naturally to them. It's instinctive. Have you ever watched young boys and girls play and noted the differences? They are stark, and it's not because they are taught to be different. They come by that naturally. Sure, there are exceptions but the rule remains.

This whole social experiment we have been undergoing where we seem to be trying to prove that men and women are the same except for our genitalia is going to eventually prove what some of us have known all along... men and women are different, with different strengths and weaknesses and different purposes, and yes... different roles.

[MazeOfLove]

This isn't a social experiment but instead a reaction to an ever changing world that, until 60 years ago, was operating under a very specific, strict 'natural' order. Now, we're in a world where we're discovering different sexualities, different things that women want to do, interracial relationships--all of which would've been considered abnormal or against a defined purpose. We'll have to just agree to disagree here-which is fine. That's what these MyTake's are about-sharing opinions.

[Opinion Owner]

Yep, agree to disagree... strongly.

Speaking of which, @Sometimes12 is absolutely correct in his criticism of your view regarding opinions and truth. Your contention that "opinions, by definition, cannot be false" is, well... false. There are facts and falsehoods, and your opinion can align with either. The fact that it's an opinion does not in itself have any bearing on whether or not your beliefs are true or false.

[MazeOfLove]

Opinions don't align with facts. They are two separate things.

[Opinion Owner]

If you are of the opinion that planet Earth is flat, your opinion is wrong, period. Hopefully you are intelligent enough to recognize that reality.

[KingsCanWait]

"It's easy to say women were happier 50 years ago when their scope was limited--they didn't know the possibilities that women know today. Interesting how women's views of their roles and desires and capabilities changed once they started seeing the world from different lens, eh?"

That's so right. It isn't a fair comparison when it was the only option.

[MazeOfLove]

What I have said a couple of times throughout this thread is that there is a different between an opinion against subjective things (like views on feminism) and whether or not Lebron James plays in the NBA or, in your example, whether or not the earth is flat or round. To provide an opinion against something objective like these is a fallacy in and of itself and goes against the very definition of an opinion.

[Sometimes12]

I read in the comments that you teach women empowerment.

If it's true that you want to help women feel empowered you would be interested to learn that the best way to do that is to teach them how Feminism got just about everything wrong. The ways in which women currently and have always held power and privilege, and the ways in which men suffer and hold little to no power.

Every single women I have ever met who has done this has said the biggest thing they took from it is a realization of just how empowered they are. They say they have never felt more empowered and that it's a real lasting empowerment, not the fake kind they felt as a Feminists.

Just something to think about incase you're genuine about your desire to help women be empowered and it's not just virtue signaling.

[MazeOfLove]

I am genuine about it, an Certified in it and have won awards for it. But, there is more than one lens by which to look through this. And while some women say they feel more empowered, others have not. And by the way, I never said women weren't more empowered today. I simply said that we should not bash them for redifing a term they didn't have a hand in defining.

[MazeOfLove]

And to your turtle/opinion example doesn't align with an opinion. Opinions are subjective whereas your example was not. Lol

[Sometimes12]

This is a very strange conversation, I agree with you on one hand and on the other I also know how and why you are wrong. It's a great deal like talking to a religious person about how you can see the value in their beliefs but you can also see how much of what they believe is total bullshit.. If that makes sense to you? It's kinda like a preacher getting a preaching award, it's great for him and those in his community but it means nothing to anyone who doesn't share those same religious beliefs because it's based on a fiction, even if it is a fiction that many find solace in.

If religion helps people then good for them I hope it works out, I just prefer truth over sentimentality. Then if I choose to believe in some religious concept at least I do it knowing I'm wrong but it feels good.

to each their own I guess.

Also I'm curious, how does teaching someone how they hold power make them feel powerless?

[Sometimes12]

"Subjective" isn't a shield against being wrong..

[MazeOfLove]

Well, I'm not religious at all and your ideas can be bullshit just as much as mine can. Was there an actual question in your post? You said that you know I am wrong but you don't state how. You just put in an analogy to a preacher winning an award. Very strange conversation indeed.

And whoever said that teaching someone how they hold power makes them powerless?

[MazeOfLove]

Nor did I say it was. I was simply stating that whether or not a turtle lives on your back isn't a matter of opinion. Your analogy would be like me saying that 'in my opinion, Lebron James does not play for the NBA'--this is an objective thing that we can prove. Opinions are subjective.

[Sometimes12]

The way you communicate your beliefs are in the same manner religious people do, things about "subjective" belief being true. Lots of assumptions that are based on falsehoods or half truths, not in a malicious way just unexplored from a critical point of view. Surely you've spoken to people of faith who you do not agree with? that's what this feels like to me. For many people Feminist ideologies can be a sort of religion is my point and that's what this looks like to me as an outsider.

I didn't point out how you are wrong because I don't want to debate it endlessly 1000 characters at a time. I said it because you seem reasonable and plenty of reasonable people will make a critical examination of their opinions if someone points it out. I know I have many times and it's changed my world view on a number of occasions.

"And whoever said that teaching someone how they hold power makes them powerless? "
You did:
"And while some women say they feel more empowered, others have not."

[Sometimes12]

and subjective opinions can be wrong.

[MazeOfLove]

I didn't associate that comment with teaching them, however. It was in reply to the point that women feel more empowered today. That is situational was my only point.

[MazeOfLove]

We'll agree to disagree on associating 'opinions' with 'wrong'. I've reached my limit on addressing this point.

[thetundrawolf]

Femininity in past was never a forced construct, as you imply. Rather, it was an acting on natural devotion. You may decry the lack of appreciation for said femininity by men, and that is on those men. Today, feminism is women demanding respect. Respect is never truly just given. It is always earned. The natural man appreciates a woman's natural beauty. It is neither defined, nor is it forced.