Women Haven't Lost Their Femininity: They Never Had A Choice In Defining What It Was (Page 2)
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I read an article that was posted on huffington post, Washington post, Fox News, NBC, yahoo news, etc, the same article posted on all these news sources that talked about how women now have more independence and how they compromise more of the workforce yet the article went on to state that female happiness has decreased substantially even though you would think they would be getting happier since they had more independence ad equality, the study had been going on since the 1970s and ironically instead of female happiness increasing it has been decreasing every year until the mid 2000s where there was a substantial drop, it boggles my mind honestly the article then talked about how females are suffering more from alcohol deaths and suffering from alcoholism as well as drug use and mental illness problems which surprised me as well, it's pretty interesting when you would expect females to be happier but they aren't especially since the 70s.
I believe that staying at home should not be counted under femininity.
Just like men changed as they're going going to wars with the other nations, women also started working outside of their houses. There's no role of gender here.
Better for the kids. Children need an intact family - with a married mother and father, for the best chance of success.
Men are who define what femininity is. Whether what they are doing is attractive or not. But you're talking about roles, not femininity, or attractiveness. I guess we have a different definition.
And no, you can't do it all. Traditional roles are coming back in vogue because it works and generally people are happier that way.
The strong independent isn't any more happy than the housewife from the fifties. Check out my 'Take on the alpha woman:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a34931-men-are-simple-not-stupid-an-alpha-woman-is-always-gonna-butt
Good take.
But I would disagree that men necessarily benefited anymore from their wives staying at home than women did from their husbands working. On a personal level anyway. Institutionally I agree men benefit from not letting women get an education, job, hold office...
But on a personal level it's a fair trade really I think. But most men these days can't hold up their part of the bargain so women can't hold up theirs. But it seems like a lot of men still expect them to
I just meant that they benefitted from the perspective that men weren't required to do things (cook and clean) that they didn't want to do because women were required to do them. Yes women benefitted from their husband working but men decided who took what roles--not the other way around.
Well I think it's a bit simplistic to say that men decided
A bit simplistic? Men were physically stronger (like they are today) and the laws protected them. Men made the laws (not women). The bible (which used to be a real source of authority) and was written by men, put men over women. These all show that men decided.
If you go back further though. Before laws, before the bible. It's the most obvious choice. Women being weighed down by pregnancy and as you said having less strength can't work as physically hard as men. And before the 20th century most jobs WERE physical.
Very good points. But while pregnancy and the physical demands of most hard labor jobs may have created a natural/obvious division of roles, women were still disadvantaged when it came to choice because of laws and the physical dominance of men.
The bargain wasn't equal because the nature of the two types of work is very different. Even if you enjoy cleaning, it gets old after a while. In a job, you often receive new challenges. This makes life far more interesting. More importantly, however, house work is not gratified. Sure, your husband may throw in a casual "thank you" but that's not the same as seeing a sum of money land on your account at the end of the month. Salaries aren't just important because people can buy food with the money. They are also important as a means to encourage and thank employees. In fact, I can tell you this first-hand. I've been studying at a university for a very long time now. And though I love it, it's beginning to bother me. Getting good grades is just not the same as getting money. A salary is a stronger sign of appreciation.
And finally, the wife and mother always had to work mainly for the family. She had to put herself in the background. The man could put himself as priority nr. 1.
@BlueCoyote It was at first. It's not like men said "enough with the hunting I want to be a lawyer"
In fact until very recently 80 or 90% of people were farmers. Women would take care of the children and house and in return men build the house, work the fields and fight with other men. And then yes men's jobs changed and so it womens. People have this odd idea that all women were housewives until the 50s. Which is wrong of course, working class women always worked
" A salary is a stronger sign of appreciation." is that about that tho? I enjoy having a salary too but it's because I enjoy spending money not because I think it's some sort of appreciation.
If I never had to work again, I would not feel less appreciated
I do agree though that being a housewive today is generally not seen as job as a real job and there seems to be less valued in society. That's however also a cultural thing
My housemate is from italy and we were talking about our families the other day and to recap what he said I was like "so your mother wasn't working" and he said "no! I just told you that she took care of us"
"The man could put himself as priority nr. 1" well I agree that they had the option to do that but it wasn't meant to be like that and I'm not sure it was common like that either. You my grandma got married before were allowed to vote and she would go voting with him because it was "our vote" the idea being that men would vote representative for their families.
The idea that men are supposed to take care of their families doesn't always mean you get to put yourself first. Michelle Obamas father for example worked a manual labor job despite having MS because he needed to.
Anyway I'm not necessarily disagree with your point but I don't think it's quite as black and white either
@nalaa Many women don't hold their end of the bargain anyway these days, they expect men to pay for them in meetings, while they are not cooking and cleaning for them.
Men never had a choice either. It pisses me off when people make out that men were living awesome lives and women were basically slaves. Men's lives were brutal and short for a very good reason.
I predict this opinion will be removed like another woman's opinion that took this similar stance--
He's a white knight.
@roamer who removed an opinion? I didn't.
@Love_Is_Eternal by he, I assume you mean me, the author? Some immature and sarcastic attempt to assume that because I have an opinion about women's rights that you disagree with that I'm some white knight? Contribute something substantive or arenylu incapable of that?
Said Moderator--here it is below:
Anonymous
(25-29)
11h
No, women HAVE lost their femininity. Women were always the ones who defined themselves and took on the roles that fit with it. I mean, women have a natural innate behavior to act a certain way, so do men. It wasn't men who "forced" women to act like that, they just did. I know you want to blame all your failures and shortcomings on men, but you just can't. It makes you seem foolish.
1|15
7|1
@roamer So a moderator removed it? I certainly didn't ask for that, nor do I find it fair. People are entitled to their opinions. Mine was just that, an opinion. I do remember reading that comment yesterday. And frankly, this is what's wrong with the media in general--the idea that there is only one right opinion and the rest will be covered unfairly.
I have a screenshot that has the "removed by Moderator" banner and if there is a way to upload it in a reply I will
Yes, you're one of those white knights who panders to women.
@Love_Is_Eternal because you say so? Got it.
I don't agree, take a women and look how she lives her life, typically , she will like to live in the moment, make emotional based decisions, be more sensitive etc, all of these traits are great! They are amazing! But they are for women and not for men, women don't have to work hard, men do, and that's how it should be , i think there is a case for the grass is greener on the other side, or maybe our culture portrays feminine traits as a bad thing making women ashamed of there natural traits and striving to behave in a more masculine manner
Since when are we criticized for trying to be
homemakers, cooks, maids, wives, and wage earners at the same time? Who is doing the criticizing? id praise a woman able to do all that. I may criticize her mate tho.
Women are oft criticized for not just getting back to the 'good old days', for being too independent, for ruining the family, etc. Google "feminism killing society" and you'll get thousands if articles and posts that talk to this.
I could google that or just google; ass backward mysoginistic redneck and find the same info.
Except that established politicians, publications, etc are writing and saying this. As are other influential people and outlets. It's not just rednecks from the backwoods.
Increasingly both men and women need to be wage earners to survive the high cost of living. Gone are the days of $5,000 homes and $1000 cars.
Well said.
Women have always been wage earners, even working in male dominated fields, the 1950's golden age is an exception to that rule.
I guess you have a point there! Woman's roles were defined for them- so they have never been able to define for themselves what it really means to be feminine.
I guess if you look on the other side, using the same logic- men haven't been able to define what it means to be masculine either
So for both we were told what it means to be feline and masculine.
Why the society decided to send an strong men to cut down trees and not women, let me think, how could the society come to the conclusion that men are generally stronger and better for those roles? I have no idea, oh wait, in fact I do.
and the same thing can be said for men. There seems to always be people who have these unrealistic goals for both genders yet the REAL problem is when people act like their issues are important while overlooking the other side. what does it mean to be a ''man'' in your eyes? it seems almost every single thing a man does he may be criticized and its the same for women. People have their preexisting beliefs. EVERYONE has social stigma surrounded by them whether it be minorities, women and as many people hate to admit it, white men. The real question is will you overlook somebodies struggle? or will you just continue to make one sided takes?
Fantastic take! Thank you so much. Let the downvotes rain ;)
Women always had a choice.. Those roles didn't define femininity.. That defined a successful woman in society.. Women back then were just as strong, if not stronger than they are now.. They got to have a voice regarding them wanting to be more independent, and be equal with men.. Now, feminism today more want more than equality with men, they seem to want to pit women against men, and make it seem as if women are more the same as men..
I know, that's the friggin conundrum. You want to be your best as a guy but you have to slow down or you'll seriously hurt a girl. You can't win and in the meantime while you're hopping from one foot to the next, less shit is getting done.
Gender and characteristics is not an matter of choice, some women are not feminine, but it's not have any effect on the concept itself. Also many of the gender roles had come from biological differences between males and females, and we can see those differences in many animal species as well.
This is interesting... I nvr thought about nvr getting to choose the definition.
I do women empowerment and relationship coaching and I very often hear people talking about how woman are changing what it means to be a woman but historically they didn't have the power, influence, etc. to decide who they were. Clearly, there were key women that helped changed how things are but by and large, society decided, namely men within society.
I always thought women could define their femininity as individuals you know they can wear the skirt and the pants. Women have more ways to express themselves but now i have to going to think long and hard about this. I need to adjust my views.
Never looker at it that way since there were priveledges that women (white) had back then you see. Non white women had it tough but not bc of gender but race.
Women are a bit shit at deciding what femininity should be tbh
Why the downvotes? Your opinion resonates reality.
Male feminist? 😂 Sad. You'd think it'd be the opposite and older guys would have their balls on straight instead of the younger generations. Erectile dysfunction is hitting you hard ain't it?
Most feminists want to be masculine and emulate the qualities of men rather than master the art of femininity. These women have been contorted in belief to reject traditional femininity as abhorrent, weak.
No--they don't like what traditional femininity stood for or how it made them feel. So they're redefining it. This doesn't mean they want to be masculine--that's a very narrow perspective.
Do you think femininity/womanliness and duty are the same?
I think because society was very masculine orientated and feminine traits weren't celebrated, women felt neglected somewhat and now have decided to start behaving as men.
Duty is likely where we're at odds here. This idea that women have specific duties... If a women (or man) is born free, that should include freedom fro duties that other people have assigned or determined for them.
I think cooking, cleaning, and staying at home isn't a part of femininity. Men do it too and they aren't beta males/feminine.
I agree and yet the point of my MyTake was that there are millions of people who do. These problem who think that because women don't want to be defined by those and other roles, that they are somehow ruining femininity.
I get it.
Yes but a women should never be the bread winner, that's just not natural and that man who allows that can't call himself a man, women should be treated as princesses, not the men and if that makes me sexist then I guess I am sexist.
@Aconfusedguy90 No. What is "natural" isn't always the best. Naturalistic fallacy right there.
So how can you say that you want what is best for women when you want to see them working 9-5 in stressful and competitive environments? Gender roles aren't just plucked out the air, men have stronger spirit and resolve is engraved in to there character for biological reasons.
@Aconfusedguy90 Women are free to choose whatever they want. I don't have to tell them what to choose.
Thanks for this take. Women are capable of so much more than being home makers, and restricting them to that role is just wrong.
but nobody is restricting you anymore.
None of this applies to women more than men, but see how you make it about women anyway? That's toxic feminism BS. You're just women-worsting.