What is WITH the Fear Epidemic Plaguing Young Males?

[Fathoms77]

I just have to ask:

What the hell is going on?

But before I answer that rhetorical question, let me insert the all-important disclaimer: While I don't believe we live in an entirely gynocentric society, I do believe there are distinct hints of that, and there are more and more reasons for young males to feel more and more uncomfortable in all aspects of life. There's a reason why many guys I know are afraid to look a female coworker in the eye, why they're more reluctant to get sexually involved with any woman, and why they increasingly feel they're in a world where the ruling regime basically just says, "shut up, you're a white male, you have no say."

I understand all that, and I loathe the current direction, too. I promise.

But I'm not sure this warrants the extreme level of fear that's racing through young men like wildfire. Just based on what I read on here on a daily basis, and comparing it to what I remember of being in my teens and 20s, something has gone seriously awry. Now, I'm just going to say this once, my fellow guys, and I swear I'm not trying to offend, but:

All of this is a product of one thing: FEAR

The argument for going to escorts and prostitutes has some merit (it really does), but at its core, it's rooted in fear. It's easy. Give someone money and they'll do what you want. You don't have to worry about rejection at any stage and you're not obligated to do or say anything. Now, if all you care about is sex and have zero interest in the concept of fulfilling relationships (or worse, you believe the latter can't exist), then I guess that's what you have to do. But it doesn't change the fact that you're still terrified of trying. Just because you're willing to settle for table scraps doesn't mean those who strive for the seven-course gourmet meal are doing it "wrong."

"I can't get a date, so my life is over and all women are sluts."

I'm worried this is an accurate - albeit depressing - summary of how young men see the dating world. Not only is it a blatant generalization of an entire gender, but it's such an extreme level of self-loathing and defeatism that it sort of boggles the mind. I mean, first of all, when you're 20 or whatever, isn't there anything else on your mind? Your entire life is in front of you and believe it or not, the value of that life doesn't necessarily revolve around the opposite sex. Don't you have some personal aspirations that should receive some attention? And in the process of going after these aspirations, you will live more of life and hence, your views on male/female relations may - and probably will - change dramatically.

What's interesting is that this trend has resulted in a surprising return to conventional values. I'm okay with that but again, it seems young men are taking things to the absolute extreme. We're starting to revert to the, "don't have sex before marriage thing because I don't want to marry a SLUT" idea that once held sway. Guys are starting to look at any woman who has more than two boyfriends a year as someone to avoid. Plus, they're starting to think any woman's ulterior motive is to grind the man's face under the heel of her boot. The result is men tossing up massive walls (welcome to MGTOW) and essentially running in the other direction.

I'm not saying a little fear isn't justified in today's society, the way things are. I am saying that it seems too many perfectly able young men are letting fear dictate their lives. Fear is dictating their perspectives, opinions, and ultimately, their actions. They're rationalizing and justifying that fear as best they can but it just isn't working. It's too transparent. The worst part is that most intelligent women know it's transparent and hence, don't give fearful guys the time of day. Then the cycle is complete and the situation is as follows:

"Petrified guy whose mind is jam-packed with nothing but fear and anxiety and even hatred of the opposite sex, still staunchly believes he's a "nice guy," but smart, nice woman doesn't buy it, thereby throwing the nice guy's already warped view even more out of whack."

Fear of approaching, fear of talking, fear of getting intimate, fear of a serious relationship, how it all reflects on you, etc, etc, etc. There will always be a little anxiety and that's normal. But anxiety has now been replaced with paralyzing fear and that does not bode well for the future, you know?

[AleDeEurope]

One of the main reasons this is happening it's because of schools and many families aren't raising their kids. Many guys weren't raised/aren't being raised by their dad too. Most mothers can't teach a boy to become a man, the type of man society and other women want. Sorry, but it's true.

Schools today don't seem to teach kids to go fight for what they want, so you end up with kids that despite being scared and hence not doing well, are still rewarded. This whole safe space thing is just gonna make it worse. The first thing they tell you when you're afraid of something is to go out there and face it, and you're not gonna be able to do that inside your safe space.
Many families today have both parents working, and the kid is being raised by strangers at a daycare, a place where they're given no attention or love, where they're not taught almost anything. Then they go to school and it's the same thing. Eventually they'll reach college and they'll demand attention and they'll be scared of anything cause they're not used to having someone to tell them to fight for what they want, to not be scared of rejection. They're afraid of failing and never getting the love and attention they've always craved.
(This applies to both genders, though)

Sticking to just males: then you add feminism and it all goes up in flames. In school you're told to shut up and sit down, instead of being active, which what boys tend to do. They're stripped of their creativity cause a drawing of two knights in a swords fight means the kid is a violent psychopath. They're told not to play catch cause it's a dangerous game... this makes boys not be able to be themselves, and then at home many parents just don't care about that, and for many, they don't have a dad to look up to and use as a role model.
Then as they grow up, they're told that they have to control their inner rapist and pedophile, cause every man is a rapist and a pedophile. You can't sit on a park's bench cause they'll call the cops on you. You can't sit next to kids on a plane cause you're a man.

Join this all together and you have men who aren't men, who aren't ready for the real world, who are scared of doing something different than what they were told, and worse, doing something wrong just because they're men.

I was lucky (don't like that word, though) to have had a loving mother and good father who I could look up to and who taught me how to be a man, but many many males didn't have that when growing up.

[SovereignessofVamps]

I don't think most guys are like this. GAG is a site, for people looking to vent about relationship issues after all.

[Barrabus_the_Free]

If you understand how to compare risk vs reward, you quickly come to understand that when it comes to women, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Setting aside what's happened to me personally, let's look at some of the things I've witnessed:

-the parents of all the people I know around my age, their parents are divorced in all but two cases. And those two might have divorced, it's been years since I heard anything.
-Of the 4 friends I have that I know are still married and all the children are of the marriage, one is definitely raising a kid that's not is and I'm quite certain another is too. I suspect a third man's wife has cheated a few times.
-A man I used to work with was given a choice, retire or we fire you, after a woman accused him of sexual harassment. He's an asexual fat bastard, probably hasn't seen his dick in 30 years unless he used a mirror, and his loves in life are Pepsi and finding old vinyl records at garage sales. I seriously think he's still a virgin. The 'crime' that got him called before a Kangaroo Kourt? He and the woman worked in a department that was very cramped, and while attempting to go past her one day his belly touched her. His belly that sticks out 3 feet from his crotch, but she said he rubbed his crotch against her. No proof, just her word and they were going to get rid of him one way or another.
-A friend in high school was blinded in one eye due to a girl making a false rape accusation. She never went to the cops, just dropped word to some worthless POS white knights.
-Women at various jobs who have fucked and ducked their way into cushy assignments or promotions, then made accusations against the guys they were fucking & sucking.
-Majority of men I know that have been married have also been through a divorce. Majority of those, the woman 'got bored' and started cheating. But HE is the one who ended up being punished, not her, thanks to no-fault divorce.
-Woman lies, cops remove man from house that he bought before they were together. He has to continue paying bills.
-Woman lies, hurts herself, man gets DV charge.
-Woman lies to kids, or simply denies man all contact with his children just to be petty and vindictive.

And that's just the stuff that comes to mind immediately that I have personally witnessed. None of which are my own experiences.

Saying men are 'afraid' is just typical shaming language bullshit. When someone uses shaming language, you know they've got nothing so they have to resort to shame.

[GraveTruth]

It's true that men are not trying with women anymore but it isn't F. E. A. R.
The reason is because modern day women are slowly rendering themselves extinct in the relationship world.
I'll explain a bit but it's difficult with minimal words.

Modern woman have been taught that they don't need to do anything and therefore modern woman are have no drive to offer anything in a relationship. Mainly because they don't "have to".
1. Sex is an easy example. Men have sex for a few reasons : for sex, for attachment, for stress relief. There are thousands of reasons women have sex but most of them are for a selfish conclusion such as emotional security from the other person. Moving on.
2. Removal of sexist woman skills. Modern women have been taught that cooking, house cleaning, doing the books (accounting), taking care of the children and other stereotypical woman jobs are sexist. Women don't NEED to do that and men should do it equally. In conclusion Now men sew their own crap, they can cook, and I actually enjoy doing the dishes and taking care of my place. Women? ... 9 out of 10 women I've dated were lazy with responsibilities like that.
3. On the other hand women have been taught that they can play full contact sports, be as famous/powerful, etc. The issue is that women are not prone to being good at full contact sports and all of the things that women have said they can do the same as men.
So in consequence men have learned what women were awesome at (parenting) and woman have just stopped.
4. Women have been taught that they are never wrong against a male lenience should always be applied to a women. The is probably the world problem. Women learn things like
5. "I never have to apologize because I'm never really wrong against men" and "it's his job to take the blame". This is a serious problem in relationships The result is that women will love things about a guy (example: he's nice and calm) then fast forward a month and she characterizes him as a wussy. Example 2: she loves that he always so affectionate unlike most guys then later thinks he is clingy.
6. When modern woman learned that they can be financially successful, famous, powerful 90% of the time they have used their sexual appeal & body to get to that therefore minimizing their credibility.
7. This is the one I HATE the most. When meeting men, Women have been taught that guys need to prove themselves. When it comes to woman, men will judge her pesonality based on po

[RedThread]

I think men blame women for a lot of their own problems. I think men and more specifically white men have been catered to for so long that now that we are shifting away from that, they don't know what to do. I don't know what has white guy's panties all in a bunch though because pretty much women of all racial and ethnic backgrounds will be open to dating them. Men of other groups cannot claim that.

But yes, dating is harder because we aren't sure how we should approach each other. We used to have conventions in place but now we are more about treating people as individuals instead of following those social conventions. I see that as an overall positive thing. It forces us to deconstruct other people more regardless of gender instead of resorting to generalized gender roles. But this does leave us all open to make more mistakes. We all fumble the ball a lot more.

I think part of the fear that men have is irrational because they didn't have that fear when they had the social, cultural, and legal high ground in the past. Now there are consequences for our actions. I think the fear is so irrational because we focus so much on the fact that we are chatting up women instead of treating them as people. Women can have the economic and social power to reject us instead of back in the times when they depended on us or they were treated as property. I think it's the even footing and the potential emasculating that men can feel that puts them at a disadvantage. I think men are way less secure in their masculinity than they admit to. Men are terrified as being perceived as weak or vulnerable as a result. To reiterate what I said earlier, the problem is with men and how they view themselves in this world of equality. Blaming women is the easy way out. We have to analyze ourselves openly and honestly.

In that sense, I pretty much second what @nalaa said.

[RedThread]

@guckguckdac wrong on all accounts. I don't even like any of the people running, I'm not rich, and there are quite a few issues I'm conservative about as well. My whole answer is about people being brave enough to admit they have their own problems to deal with. It's about self-determination instead of passing the buck onto women. If you think that's "cuck" or "bullshit" that's fine, but please elaborate why you feel that way instead of just spewing insults. Insults tend to serve no purpose without context. If you have any constructive criticism then by all means share. I welcome and encourage that.

I'm a real human being as well. I have been for almost 29 years as long as I know ;)

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu very intelligent answer from someone with an intelligent username.

I am a white guy too ;)
Again if you have constructive criticism then feel free to bring it up.

[JRICHARDS1996]

The problem rather is that "equality" is one sided. Women are consistently being "liberated" from their gender's traditional obligations and standards while men are still militantly being forced to abide by theirs. And this is where the frustration comes from: why do we have all the burdens but none of the traditional entitlements? Women are enjoying "equality" AT OUR EXPENSE! Just look at any domestic abuse law. They all started out neutral until feminists realized that it backfired because women were actually more abusive, so they had to redefine them to vilify only men, all in the name of "equality."

[RedThread]

@JRICHARDS1996 I'm not going to say things are perfect because they're not. I'll be the first one to admit that there have been women who have put expectations on me just because I'm a man when I don't put pressure on them to do things because they're women.

I was just saying that men haven't adjusted to these changes yet. Again I'm not saying women are perfect in this either.. Equality regardless of whether or not we are there yet, shouldn't influence our ability to talk to women because they're just people like us. If we were comfortable in ourselves, we wouldn't have such delicate egos that gives birth to that fear. A lot of men want women to cater to their fragility and boost up their egos. I don't blame them for wanting nothing to do with that. I wouldn't want that in a woman.

[nalaa]

thanks,
I agree with that you say too. There is more freedom now in how we approach dating and life in general. And with freedom comes uncertainty and that makes some people anxious, as the take owner put it, afraid.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

Don't veil and smuggle in your racism claiming "intelligence". You're not white, you have racial stockholm syndrome blaming the white man again and claiming to speak for an entire group

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu your denial doesn't change the fact that I'm white bro. I also don't speak for or represent white people. I don't blame white people for anything. I'm just calling attention to white guy denial that I observe at times. It's white guys who think the whole world blames them or is against them. White men have it the best in the dating world today.

I also never claimed to be intelligent. I'm comfortable admitting that there are many things I'm ignorant about. We are all ignorant about most things.

Again if you have something to contribute to the topic of the mytake I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

What exactly is constructive about your post? You unequivocally bashed an entire race and gender. You come off as a snake. I generally discount people when the use "the problem is", that screams oversimplified and you're really just speaking for yourself. YOU are one of these terrified men. YOU were catered too. YOU aren't secure in whatever little masculinity you have. And I promise YOU don't understand why.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

A LOT of white guys HAVE been blamed for s*** that they have NO direct control over. That s*** started as early as children for some, and it was violent in some cases. Like I said, I don't know what kind of sheltered life you lead. This "denial" is merely an implication claiming you are right.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

I have no desire to share valuable information with someone who claims white men were catered to when historically no race or gender has died in their numbers to fight for the betterment of themselves and by association everyone. You can just tuck your masculinity up your a** and call yourself a woman, because that's what your whole post subtly implies.

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu lmao I have no problem talking to women bro. I have a lot of female friends. The only reason I mentioned white men in my post is because the mytake owner did. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all if he didn't first. Again I'm not blaming white men specifically. I'm blaming people in a privileged position acting like the whole world is against them. Historically that has been men and white men specifically in recent history.

You seem to think you know am awful lot about me as well. To me it sounds like you're projecting your own insecurities. That coupled with your username paints a pretty good picture. Regardless, I still wish you all the best and this conversation has been an interesting one to say the least :)

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

We used to just call guys like you a fag. But now your victimization has morphed into a privilege in itself.

That first paragraph is the first honest thing you have said. I have no doubt you have no trouble talking to females. And I guarantee you have a TON of trouble interacting with masculine males.

That whole second paragraph, cringe.

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu this mytake is about fear of interacting with women. It's not about interacting with men. We are so off topic at this point.

Everything you've said to me has just been you just resorting to petty insults. You've mentioned very little about men's fear of women or problems communicating with women. You've only talked about my supposed victimization of men. I have male friends as well. I'm not sure how you define masculinity so I can't comment on something as subjective as that.

I've been honest about everything I've stated here too.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

YOU think we're off topic. YOUR answer to overcoming this fear is for masculine men to become women themselves. I also have no doubts you are confused on what masculinity is. I bet your "male" friends are just as lost as you are on the subject.

You're an effeminate guy. That much is clear. And you fail to see the danger in that.

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu when did I say men should be women? My answer was about men being brave enough to look within themselves and see their own faults. I don't believe in gender roles so I have no idea what you mean.

Regardless of how you feel about me and how you seek to define me, I'm not a danger to anyone. I wish to bring people together.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

I think I would prefer the company of flamers over you, they at least recognize masculine men. They don't seek to run from their gender into the arms of another gender, neither of which you claim to believe in. Who's really fearful here?

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu I'm not afraid of men or women dude. I also don't care about impressing people over the Internet. I believe in biological sex just not gender roles. There's a difference. Gender roles force people into conformity. I prefer people be individuals.

[fguyagaygay]

These accounts who give upvotes are of real women or fake? They are white or just black anti-white racists in this website? Things like this is why i become gay and i feel disgust of women after years on the internet.

[RedThread]

@fguyagaygay gimme a break dude.. How many accounts do you have?

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

Traditional gender roles withstand the test of time. Your "philosophy" is a novelty, a luxury for people like you. Life imposes conformity more so on us whether you like it or not. So you do get your freedom, don't be surprised if your choices with a spouse make you more vulnerable as a couple. Another biological notion you a la carte probably plug your ears and refuse to conform to.

Did you ever stop and think that this fear of rejection is controlling some men's lives because of lack or reinforcement of gender roles (you're going from fumbling to falling on your face)? Did you ever consider "your" indulgence and "catering" to your by other women is what paralyzes other men into not knowing what women really want? In the meantime, when s*** hits the fan, when masculine men are needed, they're nowhere to be found (where have all the good men gone) because all they have left is men like you. I absolutely believe YOU when you say men should look within or YOU are all about YOU.

[castratedwhiteguy]

In the world of financial equality men are completely disposable. Why can't you see that? If the father as head of the household role doesn't exist anymore, and if the wife has the financial resources to bolt on a whim, then what guy in his right mind actually needs marriage?

[castratedwhiteguy]

The reason why your argument is fucked up is because you don't believe in gender roles.

[castratedwhiteguy]

@mostwomenshouldstfu I agree. Well said!

[RedThread]

@castratedwhiteguy so a woman needs to be in a man's debt to stay with him? Do you really think that little of women as a whole?

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu gender roles have always changed throughout history and through different cultures. Saying they stand the test of time is completely untrue.

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

You yourself in your defiant state are here BECAUSE of those gender roles. You are an ode to their success. But I suppose you have some outside, secluded evidence of the exception to the rule to justify your throwing of common sense into the wind.

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu what are you talking about?

[mostwomenshouldstfu]

You think you would be here today without masculinity/femininity being assigned to the sex that these roles are most compatible with? Or circle back, do tell of these flourishing cultures where traditional gender roles being thrown by the wayside en masse.

[RedThread]

@mostwomenshouldstfu it depends on how far back you go. Gender roles have always been more advantageous for men. Do you want to discuss gender roles of the 50s or back when women were traded and married off for three goats and a cow? I need to know your definitions in order to have a discussion.

[nalaa]

Interesting take !!
A few things tho

"There's a reason why many guys I know are afraid to look a female coworker in the eye, why they're more reluctant to get sexually involved with any woman " --- well mostly you're talking about sexual assault or more specifically, the feat of being falsely accused of that. I would not at all see that as a hint of gynocenntric society, if anything it's a reaction (maybe overreaction) to a patriarchal society in which sexual assault or even rape was ok. In a lot of western countries marital rape wasn't considered rape until the 80s. And still there are less severe punishments in place for that case.

And I have a question, if you're right about this, are men really that weak? I mean emotionally? It seems like if they're not constantly told they're great and better than women no matter what (as has been the norm for centuries) they just give up completely?
The impression I get from a lot of answer and also your take is that men don't want equality because they can't handle it

I read an article a while ago and I think his last point basically agree with what you're saying
www.cracked.com/...-are-trained-to-hate-women.html
"This is really the heart of it, right here. This is why no amount of male domination will ever be enough, why no level of control or privilege or female submission will ever satisfy us. We can put you under a burqa, we can force you out of the workplace -- it won't matter. You're still all we think about, and that gives you power over us. And we resent you for it."

[Fathoms77]

We're well past the days of rape or sexual harassment being okay. It's not right that men are so terrified in the workplace of even speaking to women, that they have to basically stare at the floor all day or risk being accused of something.

Do you know what the phrase, "intent is irrelevant" means? It's what all business policy is concerning sexual harassment, and it means that if someone is accused of it, they have no defense because it doesn't matter what they meant. All that matters is how the "victim" feels. There is no defense on the part of the accused; they're immediately in the wrong and likely immediately fired (and possibly sued).

This isn't equality.

[nalaa]

It's not right that men are so terrified in the workplace of even speaking to women, that they have to basically stare at the floor all day or risk being accused of something

Ya it's not right and it's also not true. If you feel it's true than you're over dramatizing and you're being precisely what you're describing. Afraid of something that isn't there. Sure there is a false accusation occasionally, but how often have you seen that happening in your personal life? How often at work has one of your colleagues been accused of sexual harassment and had to suffer consequences?
I work with mostly men. I talked to at 15 different men today and now of them were afraid or staring at the ground. And I'm sure for every example you have there is another where there is legitimate claim and the company does nothing

[SovereignessofVamps]

I doubt it... msot accused rapists at least, aren't even arrested. And I think workplace sexual assault cases have to go through several management levels... and if there's no proof, the accusers/women are just ignored.

[brain5000]

"... are men really that weak? I mean emotionally? It seems like if they're not constantly told they're great and better than women no matter what (as has been the norm for centuries) they just give up completely? "

I don't mean any disrespect to your comment or questions, all of which I think are excellent. The answer is "yes," men have what has been called in the past a "fragile ego." We're a lot more sensitive than women want us to be or we want to admit. Absolutely! I commend you for your keen observation. This established, now what?

[brain5000]

"The impression I get from a lot of answer and also your take is that men don't want equality because they can't handle it."

Again, no disrespect meant, because I am glad you said this. The answer is "do women want equality? Because from everything I read on GAG, many (most?) women don't.

Representative example of many I have seen:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a31061-4-reasons-why-i-ll-never-date-a-guy-who-doesn-t-pay-for-the-first-date

You can't be (equal in the workplace) and (submissive at home) at the same time.

[brain5000]

This is not a matter of fearing or hating women. What men fear is an imbalance of justice not in our favor, and we hate cognitive dissonance. Asking for the imbalance of equality at work and submission at home offends our sense of fairness and creates cognitive dissonance.

[nalaa]

@brain5000 what now? -- well... work on it?

You can't be (equal in the workplace) and (submissive at home) at the same time. -- Yes you absolutely can, You're comparing what a couple does in private with what the legal situation of a country should. That's what I meant when I said men can't seem to handle equality. Not who pays for dates, not even the slut shaming thing, but the mere fact that women can vote and have job and be independent of a specific man

[Blitzkrieger]

@nalaa I have to point something out which is incredibly wrong with what you said.

"And I have a question, if you're right about this, are men really that weak? I mean emotionally? It seems like if they're not constantly told they're great and better than women no matter what (as has been the norm for centuries) they just give up completely?"

the idea of gender equality is NOT a new one. in the ancient Greco-Roman times there were female rights movements which have accomplished more gender equality than we have accomplished today. actually in many civilizations there has been successful attempts at gender equality in their societies.

gender equality is NOT new. this idea that men have oppressed women for thousands of years up to the 1800's is COMPLETELY false. women's rights development over the course of history was NOT linear as feminism makes believe, this is simply false.

[brain5000]

Work on what? I don't want to change it and you should accept men for who they are.

People can be hypocrites if they want, sure, in matters or law or life, this is true... but it's a turn-off and don't be surprised if it angers some people when you do it.

[brain5000]

Perhaps this is also a problem men have that is turning them off to women: when women complain about "the patriarchy" or oppression against them, they demand a pound of flesh from men, but when men come with a grievance, we're the ones asked to change.

It's bullshit, @Fathoms77 - do you feel you have an answer yet? Not fear or hate, just a matter of "fuck this, I am out of here."

[Fathoms77]

So, because you're 23 and have been in the workplace for what, a few years, you know everything that happens?

It's true. I have friends who have been fired, who have been threatened with harassment, and who absolutely are terrified to go to work with women. And by the way, that rule you seemed to ignore, "intent is irrelevant," is absolutely fact. Ask your own boss; I guarantee they go by that rule, too. The entire country does and it's hilariously illogical.

It's real. It's very real. Businesses can't afford to have people running to the labor board with sexual harassment complaints, so they simply fire the accused to avoid fines, court insanity, etc. I certainly don't blame the businesses; they're just trying to stay alive. The simple fact of the matter is that if a woman, any woman, makes a harassment claim, it doesn't matter what actually happened, it doesn't matter what the guy said; none of that matters. The claim is there and the guy is toast. Done. Sad, but true.

[Fathoms77]

@brain5000 An answer to what, exactly?

[castratedwhiteguy]

This article is so juvenile! Feminism was all about tearing down male power and privilege; and without our input or concent. Mission accomplished. So what do you really think the blowback might look like?

[Fathoms77]

@castratedwhiteguy Actually, your username is basically the definition of "juvenile," and to tell another gender what the purpose of their movement was (which pre-dates your life by many years, by the way), is the pot calling the kettle black. You'd be the first to freak out if a woman tried to tell men what the purpose of MGTOW is, wouldn't you? ;)

[JRICHARDS1996]

The fear is perfectly justified because I had my name dragged through the mud just for asking a girl out in the workplace and then texting her after she gave me her number. If you're going to deny the gynocentric element then you are clearly delusional. Gynocentrism IS the overreacting to patriarchy. Men do not want equality because feminists only want to apply it to women. That is, they want women to be able to do whatever they want whenever they want and enjoy whatever privileges they want, but they still want men to have to abide by their gender's traditional standards and deal with the responsibilities. And if you disagree, then tell me why women have not been included in the draft yet?

[nalaa]

@Blitzkrieger there might have been a movement here and there. And yes some cultures were better than others. The Vikings, Romans and Greeks were clearly doing better than christian countries. And yet Christianity dominated most of Europe for the last twenty centuries and it among others, seeing women as less than men. Or men as superior

And I think saying greeks and romans had more gender equality than we do today is quite a stretch. I mean in what way did they do better?

[nalaa]

@brain5000 work on not being so weak? I mean what is the alternative? Going back to a time where men had all the privilege? There's a good chance that's not gonna happen. Not in your lifetime anyway

No I think, comparing the law of the land with what a couple does in private is an obvious straw man. What you're saying is that if a man likes to be dominated in bed by women and then goes out, working as a judge, treating men and women equally, then that makes him a hypocrite. How does that make sense?
Or think of men who want to marry a virgin, that's fine and I'm guessing most of them won't then go out and argue that women who aren't virgins deserve to raped. Are they hypocrites too? For not pushing their private preference onto the rest of us?

[nalaa]

@JRICHARDS1996 well for once there currently isn't a a draft. And there are countries that have included women. And it seems to me an big part of why women aren't included is men. Men who think that women have no place in war. Even in the current non draft situation a lot of men will argue that women in combat aren't helping.
Militaries have also always been a traditional institution that doesn't like change in it's structure. Hitler infamously build highways to get all the tanks and troops to the front, but they weren't used because the military preferred to stick to what they knew, trains.

[Fathoms77]

@JRICHARDS1996 I'm sorry, but I have to question why your name was "dragged through the mud." I seriously doubt it happened just because you said "hello" in a phone call...

[Tony1974]

@JRICHARDS1996 I couldn't say it any better myself Richard. I'll add that women want additional rights, privileges and no responsibility or obligations that go with equality. They want the unilateral right to kid any fetus at any time and we're supposed to sit by and let it happen. In divorce, they want to take everything we've worked our whole lives for and expect us to sit back and like it. When these feminism start fighting for equality in the family court system, then I'll believe "feminism" is about "equality." It's funny that before $$$ became the incentive in divorces, Gloria Steniem herself argued for joint custody... Here's a nice read that illustrates my points. thoughtcatalog.com/.../

[brain5000]

@Fathoms77 Your admittedly rhetorical question "what the hell is going on?" :)

@nalaa I was weaker when I was in the women's game, trying to please them, undergoing humiliation heaped upon humiliation, paying for all of the dates, taking their abuse and anger and mean behavior to win their acceptance/sexual favor, being used for sex and dumped again and again.

I suppose I am dealing with it, as you suggested, but the way to do that is to not date women. They're lovely, wonderful creatures as long as you don't try to get in their pants. I am also owning my values and personality *and emotions*, and not compromising or trying to conform to their double standards.

I am not complaining about men being hypocrites here. Read what I wrote again as it pertains to women. Perhaps a minor revision might help? You can't ask for (equality in the workplace) while also demanding (submissive at home) at the same time. I mean, couples can agree to whatever they want, but...

[brain5000]

... cultural double standards suck ass.

[brain5000]

Incidentally, @JRICHARDS1996 the reason women aren't included in the draft? Phyllis Schlafly.

en.wikipedia.org/.../Equal_Rights_Amendment

[nalaa]

@brain5000 I suppose I am dealing with it, as you suggested, but the way to do that is to not date women. -- No that's not dealing with it, that's ignoring the problem. Procrastinating if you like. It's actually pretty much the behaviour @Fathoms77 described here

"I am not complaining about men being hypocrites here" I understand you were talking about women but you want to apply a principle here that equally applies to men. You clarification doesn't change anything. So how about you answer the questions I asked, do you think the men in those specific scenarios are also hypocrites for wanting different at home and in the law?

And @Fathoms77 why do you doubt his bad reputation was about more than just a text. I mean don't get me wrong, I think you're 100% right here, but isn't he supporting your point that it takes pretty much nothing for men to get into trouble at work and that it happens all the time

[alphadoggystyle]

First of all its already well established that men are stronger mentally and emotionally than women by FAR, not even close. Most men are aware that we are superior to women and we dont need to be told that to feel confident, women however constantly need lots of fake and unrealistic representation so they can keep up the illusion that they are equal to men. This is the reason why movies like "carrie" are made, to cater to women since in real life women are powerless and weak. You need help and special treatment to compete with men in the work force as well, and several laws to specifically protect you against men, and you still think this somehow makes you equal to us? Equality is a lie and men always were, and always will be the superior gender. We dont need to be told that, but when society actively try to cater to women and spreading the liew of equality at the expense of men, then something needs to be done, since men won't play along.

[alphadoggystyle]

And dont flatter yourself with that last quote, men have a strong sex drive, but in the end, we look at you as a means to satfisty an urge, we dont worship you in anyway (in fact we look down on you and have nothing to fear from you), you are just one part of life that can satisfy us in some ways, but not the main focus. Men are driven by instinct to conquer nature, which is why we are more creative, intelligent and willing to take risks compared to women, and this is why so many men even long after they have fulfiled the basic goal of passing on their genes to their offspring, still keep pushing forward with our own ambitions to accomplish things we can be proud about. Most women in comparison stop trying to improve on themselves after they have had their first kid and gotten married.

[brain5000]

@nalaa A lot of men oppose feminism entirely. They ask for submission at the workplace and at home. Those men aren't hypocrites. I would like to see equality in the workplace and at home. And there are many women who want to not work and only be submissive at home; they're not hypocrites either.

Perhaps the entire women's equality movement is pushed by a minority of women, and the majority still want to be June Cleaver? That's fine, but no matter what you ask for, equality or tradition, it comes with a price. Women don't seem to want to pay a price for anything.

If your woman friend is in an abusive relationship, what do you tell her? What if she lands in one abusive relationship after another? What do you say then? What if she has a substance abuse issue? In any of those cases, do you tell her to go back and be tougher?

[castratedwhiteguy]

My username is a tongue-in-cheek stab at describing the male condition circa 2016. Also, the invidious intentions of the feminist movement are so obvious that I don't need a confused women to explain to me her reasons for being mindfucked. I can see the wreckage much clearer from a safe distance. Also, since when did women acquire a monopoly of understanding concerning this issue? If women want feminism and if enough guys reject it then we have an irreconcilable difference that will result in the collapse of our society. It's that serious...

[nalaa]

@brain5000 I understand there are men like that, they're not the majority though.
So again, how about you answer the question I asked, in the specific scenario I described. Until you do there is no point of me commenting

[brain5000]

I see those guys as the ones you are describing. They are certainly well-represented on GAG: feminist-hating traditional types. Look at most of Flyover America on a political map, they are the red states.

Either that or they are cravenly caving to the women's demands, they don't care, or they are just not thinking it through. I have no respect for them, either. They are either stupid, weak or both.

Did I successfully address your question? I am honestly trying to. :)

I also have a question on the floor about what you would say to a woman who is in an abusive relationship or with a substance abuse problem. Would you tell her to go back to the abusive husband/keep drinking/drugging but be tougher this time?

[nalaa]

@brain5000 No you didn't answer it.
I asked do you think they're hypocrites. Let me copy and paste the relevant part

if a man likes to be dominated in bed by women and then goes out, working as a judge, treating men and women equally, then that makes him a hypocrite. How does that make sense?
Or think of men who want to marry a virgin, that's fine and I'm guessing most of them won't then go out and argue that women who aren't virgins deserve to raped. Are they hypocrites too? For not pushing their private preference onto the rest of us?

To answer your question. No of course I wouldn't tell her to go back to the abusive husband. But in no way would I think that that is an implication about all men
If you have one company that avoids taxes and exploits it's workers doesn't mean capitalism as a whole has failed and we should give communism another shot

[brain5000]

@nalaa Ok sorry I didn't read that carefully the first time.

When I wrote "submissive at home," I meant "outside of the workplace" including in social situations. I know I didn't make that clear and I apologize for that. This also includes romantic/sexual scenarios. Perhaps I should have said you can't ask for equality in the workplace while being secondary or submissive romantically. "Submissive" meaning assuming a secondary or subordinate position in authority. I guess there isn't any real good way to phrase it simply, at least not that I have been able to come up with.

To try again to answer the question you asked - if a judge sought out or asked to be dominated in bed, then his partner is submitting to his wishes. Likewise if a woman dominated in bed but raised kids and worked as a homemaker, that wouldn't make her a hypocrite either. I think I miscommunicated and lead you to ask an awkward question. My fault!

[hellionthesagereborn]

Male domination? Where the hell is that? Name one right men have that women don't? I can list you many rights women have that n don't. That's bullshit, women are trained to hate men, men are trained to be subservient to women, this is reality. We live in a gynocentric society, even when everything is adversely affecting men we still only focus on women, that alone should be evidence enough.

[supernerd99]

what a bunch of nonsense is that? remnants of a patriarchy? what happens in the us and the west is horrible. men being accused for rape for nothing. men being like scared little girls amongst women. these phenomena are downright inhuman. the genders should find peace again. should love and understand again.

[chigurl33]

Men have a reason to be scared so please don't tell me they don't. A man is automatically a liar in an argument with a woman, in a divorce situation and even in the dating scene. This is because women want all focus on their problems and never want to admit that women do sick shit too. Men are more inclined not to report or have whiny attitudes because they have always been told to man up when they get into bad decisions.

My brother was once accused of sexual harassment by a coworker out of nothing but spite and my father had to pull strings to get the cctv footage of the exact time she said it happened. Some people in our own family thought he was guilty just because a random girl none of us knew said so. Since then my brother doesn't even greet anybody with a vagina in his workplace. Says it's not worth it.

They have the grounds to be and I fully support the MGTOW, I think they have just as many radicals as any other movement. And if you think you don't know people like that in real life... we all know that one individual who doesn't do serious relationships with women. Many of them are MGTOW or at least have some of those values.

It's not an irrational fear, it's good caution. If you get bitten by a snake who was your pet for five years and you almost die, you'll never keep a snake as a pet. If you hear about a few people it's happened to, you won't either. It's the human instinct... run away from danger not towards it and they've just had too many instances around them where women are the danger. When women give up on men, we let them be so please mind your business and leave them alone.

[thetundrawolf]

Not many men are willing to admit the power a woman has, to make him feel like a king, or destroy him emotionally.

Women today are angry, bitter, selfish, hateful creatures that will destroy a man when they feel the slightest bit upset, even if it is their own fault.

Women never used to be this way. Only in rare cases. But now as much as fear is spreading to young people, hate and selfishness is spreading to young women.

Let me ask you this... If in order to feel companionship, we were all required to carry badgers in our arms, everywhere we went, if suddenly the population of badgers began mauling the men who carried them, would you be so quick to grab a badger, and hold it in your arms?

It is fair to say, too, that a growing number of men care nothing for a woman's heart, and only want her body. These men believe sex is the end goal, and that is it. Foolish and stupid women go for men like this, ignoring their instincts, trusting them, then are dumped like trash, and become bitter, hateful women. But it is their fault! For not choosing better, and allowing a man to have sex with them outside of the commitment of marriage.

[Donniej]

Dude!!!
That badger metaphor though gold!!

[thetundrawolf]

@Donniej Thank you, @Donniej it's the best I could come up with with how women "Maul" me emotionally for no reason, sometimes for things that are their own fault.

[Donniej]

You don't have to tell me bro I know where you are coming from and I feel for ya!
The best decision I ever made was learning to not get attached, emotionally that is.

[thetundrawolf]

@Donniej I feel you there, man. I detached for many years. But at 37 I am so lonely it hurts. Women are good and evil both, you have to accept the bad with the good, and find the one that's more good than bad. It is better to live on the roof of your house than to live in the home with an angry, hateful woman!

[Donniej]

Amen! to that
But you know my saying goes "you are only as lonely as you make yourself feel" of course I am an introvert so I kinda feel like people drain me of my energy. And you will be surprised at the things you can accomplish when you don't have someone nagging you.
Ps your last line really cracked me up 😂 😂

[thetundrawolf]

@Donniej It is from the Bible my friend. Proverbs 25:24 It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife.

I feel you man. I am taking monk berry to lessen my sexual desire and it works. I have been fighting all my 37 years. I do not know what is to come. I wish I did not have these desires, they are a curse to me.

[Donniej]

Hmm!
You could do the monk berry thing.
But if you feel that frustrated you could use a prostitute or if you are looking for something more serious you should consider travelling to an non western country.
Especially eastern Europe, the women there are insanely hot and there pretty traditional. Also their not as uptight and demanding.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Lol i would more attribute it to lack luster fathers if anything.
I was raised by fathers other than the biological one. Boys do need the same care and compassion that girls get... and when they don't due to rigid gender stereotypes while the rest of society spins on without them, then you get this result. Then, everyone calls them immature, stupid, MRA etc... and wonder why they get more and more bitter.
How does that benefit them?
@RedThread said in a comment below that it is particularly white males that are doing this and blaming the system, that is an easy cop out of the actual situation. Not a lot of things have to do with race and yet people make it the prime center of argument.
I come from hawaii where i genuinely was a minority, actually treated worse than the minorities in the US, while my brother, a dark skinned filipinio/native American got along fine. When i come over here, i do see a lot of people making things about race, but not actually having things to back it up. Simply using it to explain a situation that they know nothing about.

[RedThread]

I'm not blaming white males I was blaming white males who are acting like the system is against them. The ones who think the whole world hates them or blames them because they're white. That's all. I only mentioned it because the mytake owner mentioned it. When in reality white males have it the best in the dating world statistically. That's all I was drawing attention to.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@RedThread Ah i misread, my mistake.

[RedThread]

I didn't word it the best either so no worries. I up voted you by the way.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

@RedThread Gracias sir, ill do the same for yours.

[Unit1]

Fear - A natural response as a sense of dread, alerting you to the possibility that your physical self might be harmed, which in turn motivates you to protect yourself.
If you proceed despite fear, you are risking yourself and you also risk in becoming either the foolish or get rewarded as courageous.

Anyway I used to be one of those guys, who bewared himself from women like you have described... until I met some females both online and in my former workplace and they seemed very alright. Not intimidating, dominating or aggressive at all - in which I dropped most of my bitterness then and started to view women as an equal, as humans with feelings and considerations.

I liked the way they had normal conversations, normal behavior, being considerate, friendly and pretty much open minded. Like a normal human being.
It was like the opposite of what I "expected" from women, the opposite of their "goal to bring men down and stomp on them", the opposite of what I have gained from quite frankly many internet relationship stories. At least now I know when I have to go outside more and treat women as I want to be treated. Phew!

I feel I have accomplished an achievement by seeing women as equals: They are just the opposite sex and are working and thinking a little different.

I fear women not, however I respect them and would keep my "safety distance" with them meaning I am not invading their "private sphere" as a way to be a gentlemen because I understand their concerns of creepy men. If anything, I'd hug them until I know they want more than that.
Well, at least if that is the right way to treat them that is. Every woman is different.

But I love women!

[BeeNee]

You already obviously know I agree with this sentiment. I find it particularly amazing how all women are the problem, and yet none of that set of men who feel this way seem to even recognize the countless women who have been cheated on, the men that have left their children fatherless, or the hurtful things that men can and do, do to women... but its not all men. It never has been. It never will be. And it never will be all women. There are bad sets in every group of everything no matter how good of a group they are supposed to be, but one has to be rational enough to see the big picture and not focus on the microcosm that they've made this big blue world out to be.

[Bluemax]

In agreement with you here, BeeNee.

You touch on a subject that is interesting to me.

"the men that have left their children fatherless"

Suppose contraception fails and a man impregnates a woman. He doesn't want this child and makes that very clear to the mother. He also makes it clear that he is unprepared to be a part of this child's life. He encourages her to put the child up for adoption. She refuses. What do you advise this man to do?

This happened to my friend when he was 19.

[BeeNee]

@Bluemax Here comes the truth. Your friend had sex. Sex has risks. One of those risks being pregnancy. Some women are pro-life and would never abort a child... maybe something one should learn before having sex with another human being, just in case. This was the point at which your friend has to grow up and take responsibility for his action. It is totally unfortunate that the contraception failed, but it happened, and as such, this was the consequence.

In the situation you reference, it could very easily have been the reverse. Let's say he wanted the child and she wanted to abort... again, we would be in the same exact boat discussing what is and isn't fair to either party, would we not? Absolutely. And to talk about it is to get into who has actual rights to decide what a woman does with her body and a potential growing child. Should her feelings simply be ignored because your friend didn't want the child he accidentally created? There are no "winners," there.

[Bluemax]

You didn't answer my question. What would you have advised he do?

He *did* take responsibility. He lived up to every single legal responsibility he had. He wrote a check every month until she was 18. He was also very responsible in telling her he didn't love the child. He was responsible in being up front in telling her he wouldn't be a part of her life. He never lied. He never led her on.

Do you propose he somehow be forced to love this child? How do you propose to make him love her? It seems to me the only thing you can do is make him financially support her. Which he did.

Now I think we can agree a woman has a right to abort. I believe she *should* have that right. I believe the decision should be 100% hers. Do you agree?

In a case where they aren't married, the woman has 100% choice as to whether or not she will keep the child. And I believe she *should* have that choice.

If she has 100% of the choices, then it was *HER CHOICE* to decide to have, keep, and raise that child

[Bluemax]

under those conditions. Therefore, since she *chose* to keep the child when the father was very honest and told her he wouldn't love the child or be a part of its life, she bears responsibility for *deciding* to raise it when she could have givendors that child to a family with a loving father.

There was a way everyone could win. My friend could have been very honest (he was) and she could have decided to give the child to a loving family with a mother and father. Instead, she *chose* to raise that child, and it was (and should be) 100% her choice.

[BeeNee]

@Bluemax One cannot force love, that is true, but even though he chose not to be a present father in the child's life, he still supported the child, at least financially, which is all that could be asked of him. DNA isn't one sided as much as he would have wished that and adoption is no guarantee either of a loving home or parents, plural, that will love that child.

[Kaazsz]

I've been trying to figure out why men and women just can't come to terms with the good and the bad they do, accept it, and be understanding of both sides. Someone suggested focusing on the positives instead of any negatives. Like when people say "why are you voting for trump/hillary, give an explanation WITHOUT mentioning the other candidate." Most people simply can't do it. So now I'm going to stop comparing sides, stop talking about any negatives, and try to focus on the positives. When you bring up the negatives apparently it just makes everyone close up and stop thinking and sticking their fingers in their ears. But I don't really know how to do it, figured I would just ramble about it on some random comment like this =D

[Bluemax]

Of course adoption is no guarantee. There aren't guarantees in life. There are, however, ways to maximize the odds to be more favorable. Adoption would have maximized the odds of her daughter having two loving parents. Her choice almost guaranteed that her daughter didn't have two loving parents.

If she had 100% the choice to give birth to the child (and she should have that choice), and 100% the choice to keep that child even though my friend made it abundantly clear he didn't love the child, didn't want the child, and would not be in the child's life, and my friend had 0% say in ANY of the aforementioned decisions, why does he seem to bear 100% of the responsibility for that child being fatherless?

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yes but your ignoring two major issues, one being the complete and utter one sidedness of the law in favor of women, that is how women have many rights men have very few and in any altercation the law sides with the woman. The other is society functions much like the law where in any altercation it will always side with the woman, always and society portrays women as victims who are perfect in every way while portaying men and fathers as idiots and borderline worthless at best and at worst as monsters. Its not men who claimed all men oppressed all women for all of history, it was women who did that. Ironic since it was men who died for women not the other way around. So its actually all of that (plus the distortion of historical facts portraying men as evil) that is the problem so while not all women are the problem society itself is and women tend to defend women far more then men defend men. That's the issue.

[SovereignessofVamps]

@Bluemax I really like your POV! It's true, she made her choice. Your friend sounds cool and responsible also.

[BeeNee]

@Bluemax essentially because he is a father and regardless of the decision the mother made, which you've agreed is her right to make, that child is innocent in all this, and may in fact want to know of, at least, who their father is. You talk a lot about choices, and this is also a choice your friend made not to be a part of the child's life aside from financially just as he made the same choice to have sex in the first place. I cannot in good faith side with one over the other in that situation or say one was more right or wrong than the other because again, to do so, would be to imply that one or the other has no rights in the decisions that were made. You're almost pushing to say her only choices "should have been abortion or adoption." That's not pro-choice at all. It's an unfortunate situation for your friend and this woman, but life rarely is black and white. If we want laws changed we need to speak up and use our vote to change them.

[Bluemax]

My friend is the biological father. If one defines a father as the man who loves a child, raises a child, teaches the child, and imparts his values on a child (and *this* is how I define a father; *not* the man who ejaculated in a woman and conceived a child), then no, he isn't the father. by the way, if you want to know my definition of a mother ( beyond the biological one ) then replace "father" with "mother," and "man" with "woman" and change the gender of the pronouns and there you go.

Now you're quite correct that he chose not to be in her life. Given that he never loved her and didn't want to spend time with her, I would say he chose wisely. Unless you think the wise choice would have been to be in her life, to take her to father-daughter dances, to the zoo, to PTA meetings, etc., all the while having to *PRETEND* like he wants to be there and that he loves her. Do you really think that's good for the child? I don't.

[Bluemax]

You, nor I, nor the mother, nor the child, nor any force on heaven and Earth can make *ANYBODY* love someone. Sadly, this includes biological parents.

The fact that the child is innocent is all the more reason not to drag her through the situation, which is precisely what the mother chose to do.

There are three choices, not just the two you laid out.
A) abort the child (she chose not to)
B) put the child up for adoption (this would have been my friends choice... he expressed his opinion and was *COMPLETELY IGNORED* and he had zero say in this as far as the law was concerned)
C) she could choose to raise the child in spite of the biological father not loving or wanting to be with that child. This was what she chose, and it was 100% her choice and he was absolutely powerless to do anything about it.

Since she chose c, she takes responsibility for the child being in a fatherless situation, unless you can propose some way to make biological parents want and love their children.

[Bluemax]

And if there was anyone who wishes this could be done, it's me because I have worked with *so* many children whose parents don't love or want them.

And yes, that is totally pro choice. I want women to have the choices to abort, keep, or put up for adoption. I also want women to have the choice to legally force biological father's to pay for their offspring. But I recognize you cannot make a parent love or want a child.

Since all of these choices rest on the mother, then the reason why the child is fatherless is because she chose to have and keep the child under those conditions.

For the third time now, what would you have advised my friend to do, had you known him then?

I would have advised him to do exactly what he did.

[Bluemax]

@SovereignessofVamps

I must tell you, this opinion doesn't make me popular at all.

[SovereignessofVamps]

@Bluemax I just feel like there could be more info... it sounds like the mom didn't care about dad's opinion, so she may not have wanted him around in the 1st place. Lots of women do that, like they keep the kid away from dad on purpose. Of course, if he's bad then no wonder, but a lot of the time they do it just because they can, like to make drama. Heard plenty of stories like that unfortunately.

[BeeNee]

@Bluemax I'm not sure why you are so insistent that I advise two people I've never met on what they should do with their lives. THE ONLY PEOPLE who should be able to make those in depth decisions about having children/not having children, are the parents involved. Add to that, I'm neither friend, nor family to them... and no that is not a cop out... you are asking me to make judgements and decisions on human life on the sole basis of the little information you've given me from your perspective on a situation you are not involved in. You are literally the government right now, trying to decide what people can and can't do with their lives and their bodies.

[BeeNee]

I've never played that role in my friends lives. They must live with their life decisions as I must live with mine, and you with yours. Your friend is also but one example in a long list of examples of situations that can happen, so to judge them and imply that this is the way it ought to be for all, makes no sense if you truly are pro-choice. Again, I bring up choices. They've both made their choices, and they will have to live with what comes from it. If anything, know who it is you are sleeping with and where you stand with situations like this, and make it clear to your partner who it is you really are and what you believe in.

[Donniej]

@Bluemax
"I also want women to have the choice to legally force biological father's to pay for their offspring."
Dude I don't think that's fair

[flypaper]

@Bluemax Um prepared to or not, now there is a human being out there who has 50% of your DNA and needs their Father. You just figure out a way to get prepared. If you for whatever reason do not have the ability to get over yourself and put what you helped to create first then I guess you just follow whatever you have to legally and hope that eventually someone steps in to take up the role you failed to do for the sake of your child... but if you don't even view them like that then you do enough to keep the Government out of your face; pay it like you do any other bill, like if you get in an accident and have to go to the hospital you still have to pay the bill even if your unprepared, it was unplanned but it happened so you pay in installments until it's paid off. Awful way to think of it and I'd hope that if someone didn't want kids so bad they'd take permanent precautions against it but there you go.

[flypaper]

sorry, ignore... just realized how old this is-lol.

[TayTay21]

I just think society in general is becoming more asocial. Girls are taught to fear guys and treat them as The Enemy, and guys are taught to be subservient and not cause trouble so that they retreat from even trying anything. Most parents and teachers treat boys like problems, so no wonder they're fucked up.

Both of my older brothers had to be put into private schools when the public schools demanded they go on Ritalin for getting into fights they never started. So they either have to let Other guys push them around or be labeled delinquents and get expelled. Total no-win. I would never want to be a guy in this society.

[TheInvisibleMan]

I am one of the guys who plans to lose his virginity to a prostitute. I have no fear of approaching or talking to girls. I also have a more developed and interesting lifestyle than anybody I know, because I had other interests too. Still, I never had as much as a kiss in my life while everybody my age (at least here) has an active sexual life. Not just my age, also those who are 18,17,16 - and a few 15 year olds I know. And in a such promiscuous environment I could never get even a kiss. Simply no girl in the world ever liked me, was interested in me, or wanted to be with me. I dont hate women for that, I just accept facts, and the fact is a prostitute is the only way I can ever find out how that stuff feels like. So you blamed guys for generalizing, but you actually did the same, only with us (virgin guys)

[Afrochick]

This losing V-card to prostitutes thing is an epidemic

[TheInvisibleMan]

@Afrochick No, just for some of us its the only way

[Negrodamuss]

Things are changing. Women are becoming more independent, and so the old tactics won't work anymore. A lot of guys are intimidated by the competition and the new rules of the game, so they check out entirely and join mgtow or some other group that can help displace their fear with anger. Not to say that there's no value in listening to some of the content from these red pill groups, because women are far from angels, and are often a bit too overvalued in some ways if you ask me. But I've noticed that a lot of this fear comes from the thought of pursuing and courting a new generation of women that don't need them

[SmokemJay]

*slow clap
accurate

[Jager66]

" But I've noticed that a lot of this fear comes from the thought of pursuing and courting a new generation of women that don't need them"

This is a Feminist myth rooted in ignorance and hate. Women need men to bond with and form families, women need men to invent, build and maintain pretty much everything, it's what keeps them and their children safe, sheltered and fed.

[Anonymous]

I would say it's a growing problem. And the problem is we raise boys to be well behaved boys. Polite, quiet, deferring, obedient, gentle. We then, as a society, don't value them as adults unless they behave as confident and determined men.

We don't raise boys to turn out the way we actually want them to turn out. They are good at school and following rules and suppressing anger in public. We don't groom them to be risk taking leaders and we don't groom them to be the sort of men women find attractive.

A few naturally turn out that way anyway. And a few others learn to become men from bro-culture which actually works better for them even though it's even more flawed than traditional masculinity was.

But if a guy is introverted and sucked at sports, he got nothing on how to be a -man-

[Ahsain]

This is incredibly well thought out and in my opinion, very accurate

[supernerd99]

being introverted and sporty has nothing to do with being a man. there are sporty extroverts who should wear skirts. and i know quiet nerds who have taken grenades in the battlefield for their comrades. your ideas about masculinity are toxic and ridiculous.
also what some women with disorted mindsets want, dont make a rule of what humans should be like. maybe its these women that need to transform their desires and self, not these guys leave their gentle ways.

[Opinion Owner]

@supernerd99 you missed my point. It was not that quiet introverts can't be manly. It's that quiet introverts are not put in any positions where their masculinity is developed. Sporty guys sort of are, but not very healthy ones. The sort of cultural structures that decades ago would have pushed towards all boys developing a healthy adult masculinity no longer exist.

[john52461]

so in other words SJW/feminists ideas have backfired on them? Any woman you've ever been near can come forward and get on national television instantly and accuse you of rape. It makes no difference if it's true or not. Your entire life will be ruined forever even if it's found out she was lying. Nothing will likely happen to her for doing so. Say the wrong word and you will lose your job, they are also the speech police. I keep it professional and never end up alone with a woman who might accuse me.

[castratedwhiteguy]

A serious commitment ultimately leads to marriage, children and a huge financial outlay. Most of these guys have seen either their fathers or men that they've known have their lives destroyed because the wife body slammed him in divorce court. These fears are very real because the majority of women have decided that a marriage ceremony doesn't mean "till death do us part" anymore. Most MGTOW's are open to casual sex, but reject any binding commitment. This is a very rational outlook. Women and government have set the ground rules so today's "fearful" guys are just rolling with the punches.

[Fathoms77]

If you really believe the majority of women have that ulterior motive when it comes to marriage, that's a delusion you've chosen to accept.

Doesn't mean the rest of us living over here in reality have to accept it as universal fact.

[PlacentaSalad]

I don't think women have that ulterior motive -- women in general are not evil witches looking for any opportunity they can to drain a man of everything he has, but it is certainly true that women have a lot of advantage when it comes to dating and that the aftermath of a breakup can be quite serious on a male *if* she does prove to be an evil witch after all.

My dad was friends with a guy whose wife had divorced him, this was about eight years ago or so when I was still living with him, and the dude had to live with us for awhile because his wife practically took everything. Castratedwhiteguy makes a good point when he says that many of us have witnessed the men around us experiencing many hardships because of women. Seeing firsthand what my dad's friend went through served as a lesson to me even to this day to be cautious with whom I have in my life. I do not want to be put into that position and be made to spend over $400 a month because of a divorce.

[PlacentaSalad]

It wasn't just my dad's friend, either. One of my better friends in life that I've known since 5th grade went through something similar with an ex-girlfriend of his. I remember one incident after they finally separated, she took the couch that he paid for (it was an expensive couch) among many other items of his, such as the big screen TV. He didn't even bother reporting them as stolen because he wouldn't be able to furnish the receipts and he just wanted to be done with her. His mom even told him that she'd probably get away with it anyway if he took her to court. I don't fear women, I can look them in the eye so I'm not sure where that example originates from, but the fear you describe is simply us playing it smart.

Granted, I do think that the hate-mongering and lynching of women that you often see online is completely unnecessary. Some dudes are a little too dramatic about their failure of finding someone to date.

[Tony1974]

YOU"RE the delusional white knight. &0% of divorces are filed by the women... It's estimated that 30% of all births in this country... hell the western world.. have the wrong biological fathers on the birth certificate. There are men who have been told by the courts they must continue to support children which are not theirs after paternity tests have proven the children aren't theirs. How is this equality? How many times has this happened? Male statutory rape victims are forced to pay child support to their rapists. Do you know the up roar that would occur if this situation was the other way around?

[Fathoms77]

@Tony1974 Never once said it was equality. In fact, I've said dozens of times that it's not equal and it's not right.

I merely said NOT ALL women have ulterior motives about marriage and controlling men. Not even the majority. It's nothing but delusion to see ALL women in the same light, and pure hypocrisy if you expect women NOT to see men all in the same light.

[castratedwhiteguy]

I never said that the majority of women have an ulterior motive. I just pointed out the fact that many women get bored with marriage, or just stop trying somewhere along the line. When that happens, the husband usually gets thrown under the bus. Since we all know that marriage isn't forever anymore, more and more guys are now weighing the downside risks before committing. It makes perfect sense to me...

[cth96190]

See the following for why a significant and increasing number of men of all ages have taking the decision to walk away from women. . . and keep on walking.
Showing interest in a woman is now an Orwellian thought crime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI-_CGAi4vk

The Sexodus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPFnvniA7w

[jennifer_bloom]

I attend a lot of zoom groups cause I'm associated with different social clubs and I find that in most of my groups - there are more females than males - males tend to prefer face to face communication while a lot of females are equally interested in online communication - like one of my best friends was a girl I would text but never meet in person and another one of my closest female friends was a girl I would message but not talk to over the phone or at each other's houses. I prefer relationships where it is purely dialogue cause they are easier to set up since I do not have to pay for travel costs to visit the person or attend to meals or monitor how clean and well groomed I am for the social activity.

[Kylesar]

We're headed in a path in society where men are gonna stop being men. Male privilege courses, all men are rapists, white male guilt, which is all just feminist anti-male brainwashing. After those women realize that their ideal man is NOT a woman in a man's body, they're gonna ask for their manly men back.

The funny thing is that nothing is gonna get done about it until they start saying that whatever mental, emotional, societal expectational, and identity issues those men are most certainly gonna be going through at that time makes WOMEN victims somehow. Only then will we revert

I was headed down the MGTOW path, and I'm glad I pulled out of it. I didn't stop being scared/angry as much as I just stopped caring in general. It's probably misrepresented by the internet anyways. I'm working hard and I'll do right by myself and my girlfriend.

[BigJake]

The reason there's a backlash from guys against girls is that the gender 'equality' of today looks curiously one-sided from the male perspective. Women, after all, are a protected victim class, even though they comprise a majority of the populace. They're the beneficiaries special educational programs even though they already have much greater academic success than guys. They're portrayed in the media as the superior gender, only held back from living perfect lives by violent and misogynistic men. Young men, on the other hand, are portrayed as clueless dupes, sexual predators, and annoying mooks. It's all bullshit, and we're tired of being told by our schools and the media that we're inherently deviant based on the tragedy of our maleness.

[Blitzkrieger]

i think stuff like this is what makes some men more reluctant to pursue something with women. you can say what you want about it, you can say oh dont care about it, its just extremist feminism. oh they are just feminazis they dont have any credibility.

well for me personally this is VERY, VERY disturbing. and its a real chore not to let these things get to you.

https://i.imgur.com/f3WqXim.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wMWLkfz.jpg

[Unit1]

You know when you see that on the internet, it's time to go outside and meet real people.

[Blitzkrieger]

@Unit1 it gets to me man.