If a man doesn’t want to pay for dates, he doesn’t get to complain about “modern women”

[Lizsizzie]

A lot of men complain about “modern women”. how promiscuous they are, how much better than them they think they are, how masculine they are, etc. They go to incredible lengths to mourn the loss of “traditional” women, who would cook, clean, and take care of the family after marriage and before that was feminine and virginal in such a way as to not make them feel like they were in danger of being taken advantage of.

men who want the benefits of modern women I.e : frequent casual sex, going Dutch or even having the woman pay for you, women generally not relying on you like a women traditionally would a man, low expectations/standards of men, just being easy in general, etc. are not justified in complaining about said women.

This notion is illustrated in the scenario of aforementioned men who claim to want traditional women going on dates and expecting her to pay. You either don’t really want a traditional woman and shouldn’t complain about modern ones, or you don’t really want to be a traditional man and shouldn’t complain about the lack of traditional women. Because as a traditional woman who only knows other traditional women: we will not date a “modern man” either, so good luck with that.

Below is a side note you don’t have to read:

Sidenote: who you as a man choose to date is not a reflection of what all women are like but a reflection of the type of women you like. Meaning not all women are whores or gold diggers, you just only date/like whores and gold digger, in the same way men will typically bring up its a woman’s own fault for liking bad boys for whatever reason, this same logic applies to men. I know this to be true as a woman who is a virgin, Christian, does believe in traditional values/roles, I exist and all of my female friends - more than seven women I can think of off the top of my head, are like this. Yet the very same men who complain about a lack of such women will overlook the whole group of us for the very same “hoes” they complain about. (Not a matter of looks either : all shapes and sizes typical attractive features (clear skin, big eyes, fit, curvy, well dressed, etc. ))

[Anonymous]

Summary: Men refusing to pay for dates responds to modern women's behavior. The desire for traditional women is a critique of modern women's expectations. Both can exist.

Detailed: It's not hypocritical for men to desire traditional women while demanding dates to share the cost. The former is a criticism of modern women, and the latter is a response to contemporary women's behavior.

One reason is: women are showing masculine energy by boasting about their income; it only makes sense that they invest in the date too.

The logic behind not wanting to pay 100% for dates is that modern women's time is not worth the investment. Most YouTube interviews of hundreds of women show women saying they do not cook, clean, or need to take care of the man. The man needs to bring everything to the "table." Women are the prize. However, what awards have men won by investing in modern women?

Many modern women have a lot of sexual partners; this demonstrates a lack of ability to be loyal. Do not misconstrue this as not having sex; it's understandable to have pre-marital sex. However, why don't modern women have sex with just one guy per five years? Yes, birth control has practically eliminated the consequences of birth, but why is there a desire to sleep with multiple partners? The onus of procreation lies in women because they are the ones to bear the child and bearing children requires a lot of resources. That is why women have the ability to abort or have a child without the father's consent.

For expectations, men are saying modern women's requirements are unreasonable because, statistically, they are. One of the most quoted requirements for men is " Women desire the "quadruple sixes." The man must have:

1) Six Pack (Only 2% of American males have) 2) Six Figure Income (Only 9% of American full-time workers make six figures) 3) Six-Feet Tall (14.5% of all American men) 4) Six-inch member (16% of men)

Those figures illustrate a man fitting all of those attributes is rare, around 10% of the dating pool. As such, those men can have casual sex; they don't need to pay and why they are able to be promiscuous: they are highly desired. It's okay for these men to be promiscuous because women allow them to be; reasoning is onus of sex is on women aforementioned above. Men forcing themselves onto women is wrong and illegal.

Why don't women lower their standards? It's complicated; hypergamy or "marrying up" is something all women desire. It's only when women finally realize after they gain a lot of "wisdom" is when their standards are lower. By then, men do not desire "those" women.

Overall, men are just playing the hand they are dealt. Desiring traditional women while not wanting to pay for dates can exist simultaneously.

References:

https://ectomorphing.com/what-percentage-of-men-have-abs/

https://www.credit.com/blog/six-figures-what-it-means-and-how-to-earn-it/

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/585718168419c246cf6f204e/t/5ab7e2de70a6adbbb6bcf676/1522000606378/STATISTICS%2B-Dimensions%2B-%2B3-19-18%2B%281%29.pdf

[Lizsizzie]

Either way my point still stands, if a man does not want to act like a traditional man, but rather as a “modern” one, who takes none of the traditional roles or responsibilities of a traditional man, then he had not leg to stand on when complaining about traditional women and their lack of adherence to gender roles. They benefit from that lack of adherence and so they actually do want modern women, because a traditional woman, who do still exist by the way (myself being one of them, virgin and all), will not and does not have any reason to put up with their “modern” behavior and standards.

[Lizsizzie]

You’re misunderstanding also seems to stem from a lack of paying attention to the explicit language of my take, of course men can and do expect such things. But it is not justified, in fact it is rendered unjustifiable by their own logic. Those same men will say that modern women deserve to be treated as less, hence the first date dilemma, but they expect to be treated as something they themselves are not.

[Opinion Owner]

Men are held to traditional standards and still act in accordance to the traditional roles. Majority of men are in highly labor intensive jobs such as construction, military, police. They are still expected to defend the country by being a part of the draft. Again, you are mixing up the issue; men not paying for dates is a response to the " I don't need no man, independent woman, feminist" mantra. If women are equal, why shouldn't they pay for the dates? They criticize and compare modern women with traditional ones because as a whole, they believe it was better for society; it's not hypocritical to have that perspective. hat criticism of modern women has nothing to do with paying for dates. Most men are willing to pay for dates, but it's not worth it because the modern woman do not provide anything. My evidence is in the amount of money given by men on Only Fans or Twitch.

[Apraxia]

This is the flaw in both sides arguments. People begin expecting and laying blame on genders based off of their own selfs expectations and then continue to blame the other gender for not meeting their own standards. I agree with your statements if you have expectations then you have no right to complain. Call it quits move on. Think people forget love is hard, the choice is easy but finding that one ain’t. Date wash repeat. Again as you said why tf complain about someone not meeting your expectations just move the fuck on. Lots of dudes kicking up a storm in retaliation to females standards being “too high” cool just fucking ignore it then 😂 find someone who matches your own let people want what they fucking want.

[Lizsizzie]

Being held to traditional standards within society and being held to traditional standards within relationships are two different issues you purposely conflate to protect your viewpoint. If we actually compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges: men are still held to traditional standards of work within the society - and so are women. Women are still the only ones who can have children and by and large are still expected to do the majority of childrearing and household responsibilities on top of being asked to take a masculine role within society and strive within the workforce. In relationships neither men or women are being held to traditional standards, and yet both those same men and women will complain (as they benefit from them) about those standards not being met. This is the very definition of hypocrisy, “I’m mad that others won’t do X for me, but I’m not willing to do X for them.”

[Opinion Owner]

Women have refused to do the traditional standards of household responsibilities and instead have VOLUNTEERED to take masculine roles in society. There are plenty of women who do not know or refuse to cook, clean, etc. Again, YouTube videos of female interviews demonstrate this. They bring nothing to the "table." It is not hypocritical because men are still expected do many of the traditional things. There is no difference with the society's traditional roles and relationship roles; that is a false claim. The traditional relationship expectations are part of the societal traditional expectations. Thus, your assumption is wrong.

[Opinion Owner]

There's not problem in blaming; people are responsible for who they are. It's not kicking up a storm; there's no revolution. It's guys discussing the trends and criticizing the behavior.

[Lizsizzie]

You will obviously ignore the obvious and say something as blatantly untrue as what people are expected to do in relationships is not in any way different from what they are expected to do in society, as though the majority of women are expecting their men to go to war or be in the armed forces of something, in order to avoid admitting you are wrong so the conversation is hopeless. Women are often shamed, by men in particular and even called gold diggers, for not taking masculine roles within society, for not working or wanting to be a housewife. You’re point it obviously wrong, you refuse to admit that women could be in anyway similarly disadvantaged or have unfair standards placed on them that are equal to or greater than the ones men face; which is just honestly childish. If you can’t even take a good hard look at reality and see in the most modest sense that at the very least both sides have it bad, then you really are just too far gone in self pity.

[Opinion Owner]

Women have shamed men for centuries too; this is not the fault of women or men. It's about what is actually going on. More importantly, women shame other women; most women polled stated that they cannot work for other women.

aninjusticemag.com/genuine-reasons-why-some-women-dont-want-female-bosses-df9524058c

Society does not expect women to be masculine. Women asked for it through the feminism movement. You have no evidence that women are treated unfairly; if they are in the modern era, lawsuits would be going left and right especially in Western countries. Discrimination due to gender is illegal in the United States. I don't understand how criticizing and making observations equate to self-pity. I don't feel sorry for myself.

Show me the evidence!

[DaySpring]

@lizsizzie I don't think it is that black and white. That's my opinion anyway. It's the same thing I was saying about veganism on another post. I eat like a vegan but I don't put myself in the box of calling myself a vegan. I can eat 99% vegan and have honey on the side of every meal. One can want to split the money on dates and also want a girl with more traditional qualities. It doesn't have to be so strict.
In my opinion, you're thinking so inside the box you cannot see. There is more options than these limiting Boxes. It's not all black and white.

[Lizsizzie]

@DaySpring more tradition and traditional are two different things. If one wants things the traditional way, which is to what I refer, then there are in fact clear cut gender roles to be found.

[Apraxia]

I kinda disagree with the first half of this statement actually. I don’t believe that’s quite true anymore actually as well. I find majority of households with be visited either have an equal split amongst household chores or have the breadwinner obv not doing as much. And when it comes to that technicality women aren’t being asked to take over traditional “men’s” work they’re being asked to contribute to the relationship same as anyone would expect their partner too. Again Politics such as this are why majority of relationships nowadays don’t last. People seem to caught up in what they should be doing or shouldn’t have to do rather than just communicating and figuring out a balance. As you’ve said in the second half tho people just are up themselves nowadays, no such thing as compromise or effort sadly. Expect get hurt. Gotta unexpected the expected.

[shaysh87]

Nowadays men insist on marrying housewives. but few could actually support a housewife.

[Opinion Owner]

@shaysh87 I can afford to support a housewife.

[shaysh87]

@Opinion Owner,

many men on here say they can. but few actually can

[Apraxia]

@shaysh87 itsa harder thing to do nowadays , which is why I find traditional standards are obsolete. Again goes hand in hand people gotta stop expecting the same old shits changed

[Part2603]

What do you mean? He can stand on the leg of feminism. In fact, the position that women should pay for dates is the feminist position. Unless you want to say that "feminism" is just a paper thin justification for being slutty?

I think we men can be "sex positive" (whatever that means) and still have standards on the sex that we choose to engage with.

I don't think this is the "win" you think it is. Pretty sure most men would gladly pay for a meal if that came with the guarantee that his date hasn't had a train ran on her. The problem is that women lie.

[Shlikee]

It seems like these days the adults are like big children, both men and women run from responsibilites and we crumble when things get hard. The players are causing women to go slutty, as men we need to be more goal driven and distance from women more to focus on our goals to provide.

[shaysh87]

@Apraxia @Shlikee

Men love talking about "providing". Truth is, vast majority of the millenial and gen z population still with their PARENTS! Many people in both these generations say they are deciding to never have kids because they're too expensive. Most of these people can't even afford a house. Right now there aren't enough houses. The only ones who are winning the bids for houses are old white Boomers with money , not young folks.

so its quite hilarious how guys on here insist that women become housewives. Because reality is, cost of living will only get worse as the years go by.

[shaysh87]

if you can't afford to have kids and you can't buy a house, the last thing on your mind should be obsessing over a housewife.

[shaysh87]

In 1960, it was only 5 cents for a cup of ice cream. In 2022, a cup of ice cream is 7-9 dollars.

[Apraxia]

@shaysh87 exactly the traditional standard nowadays is obsolete, for those who can be traditional fair nough, feel like some people needa wake up, realise how shit is nowadays people all expecting wayyyy to much as if they’re entitled to it all.

[Shlikee]

@shaysh87 that is true 👍

[Sixgun77]

I consider myself to be a traditional man, and I was only interested in being with and marrying a more traditional woman. I think a lot of what's in the OP and in the comments makes sense.

[fembotnpc777]

So, you'd wait until after marriage to have sex with her?

[Shlikee]

@fembotnpc777 Depends what you both want

[fembotnpc777]

@Shlikee I wasn't asking you. It was a personal question for the other guy to answer. I'm sorry you're confused. :)

[Sixgun77]

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. Younger me would have never even thought of doing that. However, as I've gotten older I can definitely see the advantage of doing so.

[fembotnpc777]

Well that's why you didn't get married to a trad woman.

[Sixgun77]

How do you know I didn't?

[fembotnpc777]

How do I know she's trad?

[Sixgun77]

Well, without actually meeting us IRL, you're not going to know since I don't give out private info online. I consider myself to be pretty
traditional/ conservative, but she's probably more so than I am. Renege, one can be a traditionalist without adhering to every single tradition.

When you don't meet the right person to marry until you're in your 40s, it's unlikely that either one of you are still going to be a virgin. Both of those people can still be traditionalists even if they didn't wait until marriage. There are other aspects to being traditional than just that one.

[Sixgun77]

*remember (autocorrect hates me)

[fembotnpc777]

You know how I know? Because a trad woman isn't going to marry someone who isn't going to wait until marriage. That's in the definition of trad. You have yourself a REGULAR wife. You are a REGULAR guy. You're on this fucking website, like I'm supposed to believe you're Amish or something okay. Watching football on the weekends with the boys doesn't mean that you're trad lmaaaao

[Sixgun77]

Because a trad woman isn't going to marry someone who isn't going to wait until marriage. That's in the definition of trad.

That's by no means the end all of "traditional".

You're on this fucking website, like I'm supposed to believe you're Amish or something okay.

WTF? What does being on this website have to do with how traditional I am? I never claimed to be Amish, although it sounds like Luddite is probably what you're going for.

Watching football on the weekends with the boys doesn't mean that you're trad lmaaaao

I never said that it did. Again, where are you getting this from? What does this have to do with anything.

I think you're just trolling at this point.

[fembotnpc777]

You think I'm trolling you're pretending to be trad for internet clout.

[Sixgun77]

First, internet clout is bs to begin with, and is as meaningless as likes or followers.
Second, someone else made a statement and wanted responses to it so I responded. If you want to read something that's not there into it, that's on you.

[fembotnpc777]

you're not even trad tho

[Shlikee]

@fembotnpc777 haha so polite, thats ok

[Mewzinc]

My opinion is late but I'm just going to add it anyway. I once read a relationship advice book written by a traditional man. He was probably in his late 50s so he had his old school mentality as well.

But he said the best thing to do when you are getting to know a guy is tell him exactly what you want and what you are expecting from him.

Tell him you want to be treated like a lady and if he doesn't know what that means then tell him what that looks like.

If you want him to pay for the dates, tell him that. Tell him you're traditional and you are only looking for a man that'll also hold his end of the traditional bargain. Obviously you'll be strictly traditional too.

If he doesn't want to pay for dates which was agreed upon then you leave. He's not a man of his word and that's enough to leave.

The man who wrote that book said just tell men what you want they'll respect it because it saves them time on what they're looking for/expecting from a relationship as well instead of reading minds or hints.

He also said there will be men who'll be down for what you are looking for in a relationship. They'll be looking for the same things or they'll be ok to accept it. I feel like a lot of guys are easygoing anyway.

I know dating can be frustrating. I always thought a traditional way of dating is something from the past. It's not bad or anything it's just that not too many people do it anymore.

Ever since I think it was the 60s when women became liberated and started sleeping around, it changed the whole dating game and what's to be expected.

Traditional women like yourself who is from a 50s mentality is trying to find the good men in a world that's used to liberated women.

Traditional women are rare and hard to come by. Are men still expecting to find a traditional woman anymore? Or are they just accepting the vast majority in front of them? I wish you luck on finding the man you're looking for! You'll definitely find him and he'll be lucky to have you. :)

[Datboi65]

So I want to explain something first before I answer your question.

I'm also a traditional man, and I don't date modern women. So, what's the big deal? I'll tell you.

Statistically speaking, more than 90% of all American lose their virginity before marriage both women AND men. Therefore, the shortage in traditional people in general is very real. Even in those that call themselves "conservative" a lot of them go to parties and drink, have premarital sex and some of them have children out of wedlock. The term "conservative" has become a political term, less so about religion and tradition. The family unit is broken, and the divorce rate is at around 50%, which can increase depending on your community.

See, the reason men put more emphasis on tradition is because of 2 reasons: a) we have more to lose out of a marriage if things go wrong, since marriages are a legal contract and b) we understand that society cannot continue to exist if everyone was thinking individually for themselves, and a level of community-oriented thinking is required. Without marriage, the likelihood of a one parent household is very real, and we all know the potential risks for the children's upbringing that come as a result of that. Modern women threaten the very institution that shapes the fabric of society (and so do modern men of course, but it was the feminist movement that started all of this and the men are reacting). Now you have women that are competing with men for resources, and less mothers actively taking care of the children. So what's the solution? Hiring nannies? Not everyone can afford a nanny, and I would be very wary of letting a stranger watch my kids.

Now, let's answer your question. Why are men worried about what modern women are doing? Why not just avoid them? The answer is simple. They are unavoidable, because they are in most places. They are your teacher, your nurse, your cashier, your waitress, your colleague and so on. It's a proximity thing, and statistically they are the majority. Whether you like it or not, these are most women who exist in the west nowadays. Of course there is a level of variance, I cannot say that every western woman is a raging blue-haired feminist because that will be unaccurate to say, but if you ask the majority of women about whether or not they believe men and women should be equal, most women would say yes. See that is feminism.

A traditional woman should say that men and women are in fact different, so they aren't equal. It's like comparing apples with oranges. They are equally important yes, but in different ways. They are not equal in what they do though. A feminist would tell you that women can be just as analytical as men, but we know that's not true. Women are better at multi-tasking than men, and we don't try to compete in the areas that we know that we're not as good in as men, we just accept that that's how we were created. Of course from that principle is where people can start to climb the ladder into the more extreme, like sexual liberation or abortion or being anti-marriage and so on, your typical sjw stuff, but it all starts with the first idea and one cannot call themselves traditional if they believe in equality of the genders.

I agree, there is an emergence of men who are anti-traditional nowadays who are opposed to marriage. They can exist in both sides of the political spectrum, either male feminists who don't believe in marriage and would rather date long-term or red-pill dudes who don't believe in any form of commitment or marriage for that sake. BOTH types of men were influenced by second wave feminism to he exact, and they reacted differently. Male feminists accept feminism and think of women as "strong and independent" so they see it as an insult in a way to give her the ring (which is pathetic) and red pillers are anti-marriage because they don't believe that feminists who aren't traditional should deserve traditional benefits. This isn't a "which one came first, the egg or the chicken?" type of argument, this happened, and that was the reaction. We have to be more worried about the event rather than the reaction.

I believe it's in everyone's best interest that they warn about the potential dangers that feminism could do to society, including traditional women. If these women aren't going to hear from "the patriarchy" they can listen to a woman that thinks differently and has different results. Shahrazad Ali was an example of the traditional woman who was a scholar in her community, and has continued to warn about modern feminism for the past 3 decades. If she can do it, so should other women. The men will react to the market as they did before, and they will go back to tradition. Women influence the dating market, and men react. Why is it important? The birth rate has plummeted, and so has the marriage rate. With an aging population, there will be a shortage of doctors in the future to take care of the elderly, and that gap will increase with each generation.

You cannot hold these men accountable without addressing the root of the problem, because their reaction - as harmful as it may be - is a reaction to an event that was not started by them.

[mickmrly]

An interesting take. I agree that there is a mismatch between what men say they want in dating and what they ultimately seek. If men just wanted a fun time, they shouldn’t be so edgy about women not being traditional or trying to take charge. They are getting what they ultimately want, but they want to have their cake and eat it too.

On the flip side when men say they want traditional women, they shouldn’t be surprised if she requires a bit more support to sustain the traditional behaviour, because being a potential housewife takes a lot of time. Also men shouldn’t be trying to date a traditional woman and bed her quickly, as that is behaviour at odds with the type of woman she is.

I am a conservative guy and would be seeking conservative women. Therefore I wouldn’t expect the woman to be acting like an instagram thot or be something else she is not, and I’d be prepared to support the traditional lifestyle for the woman. (Unless she is loaded and wants a guy to cook for her, then I can learn 😆) People need to figure out what type of person they want to be with and then they need to follow through on supporting their new partner as they are, and shouldn’t expect them to be something different entirely.

[Investigator]

"Meaning not all women are whores or gold diggers, you just only date/like whores and gold digger, in the same way men will typically bring up its a woman’s own fault for liking bad boys for whatever reason, this same logic applies to men."

People respond to incentives. When men complain about the fact that women are sleeping around or only interested in them for their wealth, they are observing the perverse incentive structure: men don't like gold diggers, because they hate being desired only for their resources and not for their humanity. Men don't like women who sleep around, because it means they could easily be subsidizing another man's lifestyle, as in he pays the woman and he doesn't get anything in return.

Does that make gold diggers basically prostitutes and/or glorified escorts? Yes, it does. It's just uncouth to state the obvious. Men will happily provide for a woman, if those provisions are rewarded--and yes, that does basically mean "sex", but in the case of a relationship, the expectation is that you give her things and the sex is coincidental, not the objective, and she isn't spending her free time giving everyone else a ride. Why would a guy give a woman money, if he knows he is not desired? Might as well just pay her to leave.

So, the question is this: what incentives should men be responding? "Nothing, they are not entitled to anything", is not an answer. Well, it's an answer that women expect men to respond to, because they get something for nothing, but no self-respecting man is going to play that game. Maybe the simps of the world--the kind of men who will bend over backwards to appease a woman, for the chance to be noticed by her, will do that--but those are not the kinds of men women want.

[Lizsizzie]

The fact that people respond to incentives such as sex goes without saying but the point is that those same people should be just a a responsive to deterrents as well. If these men are so well aware of the drawbacks to dating gold digging whores, that the cons outweigh the pros by a mile, then they have no one to blame but themselves for continuing to go after gold diggers and therefore continuing to incentivize gold digging on the whole.

[Investigator]

Apps like Tinder have proven that, in the absence of some kind of restrictive dating ritual to ensure enough men are coupled up, more than 3/4 of all men are simply not desired by women. They can now sleep with whoever they want and barely any men make the cut. The ugly reality of whether or not a man is instinctively desirable or not has been laid bare, so of course men are going to complain about it. While their grievances might be valid, they are also irrelevant--they are still not wanted, so the problem remains unresolved.

If a guy knows women don't fancy him, what are his options? Be a forever bachelor or use his wallet as leverage. Money is the great equalizer, but that doesn't mean you pay for "quality".

[William7489]

Wow, if you don’t mind me saying you seem to be fairly resentful. That’s fine, I’ll be very honest with you I don’t find very many men ever, and I mean ever, who expects a woman to pay for both meals. And flipping things on its head, a lot of men feel as if the reverse is true as well that many “modern“ women want traditional privileges without obligation. They still wish to be treated like a princess, etc. but at the same time they want to be able to discard any of the obligations. You get the idea. Both sides on the extreme have lots of things they can throw back-and-forth at each other. The bottom line is this, relationships are really hard. There’s tons of people out there who just don’t have the right expectations or the ability to communicate. You gotta sort through a lot of people and if you’re lucky you can find someone who you’re compatible with. As somebody who’s been married and divorced I can attest to this. Painting an entire gender with broad strokes isn’t gonna get you anywhere except to a place where you’re incredibly bitter or resentful and looking for more reasons to embrace stereotypes. You’re very intelligent obviously, you’ve got character and it surprises me that you would fall for stereotypes. I’ve always said no one has clean hands and all of this new age gender stuff. America is struggling right now to adopt to new social roles in the home and the work place and there’s gonna be a lot of tension. We have the me too movement, we have the red pill movement? Marriage is at an all time low, male suicide is higher than ever, 8\10 are divorces are filed by women, and women are now cheating at the same rate as men are used to. Oh I think both genders are struggling right now. If you’re really that worried about dinner, trust me there’s bigger problems out there. Look for the right person you can match your character and it won’t be a problem. Just use that as a way to filter out the bad ones.

[Lizsizzie]

I’m not resentful as I personally have never been taken advantage of or been insulted in that manner, aside from the very rude and actually bitter men in this comment section of course. I won’t deny that hypocrisy in all shapes and forms angers me though. I haven’t and I don’t believe in or paint broad generalizations about men and nowhere in my post did I do so. This post is specifically about the extremely vocal group of modern men, wether they be in the majority or minority, who complain about the modern women they benefit from whilst speaking as though they are being taken advantage of or as though they would enjoy a return to traditional values when in fact their every action and very attitude contradict this.

[Shlikee]

I agree there are men that wanna sleep around with 100+ women then wonder why some girls have such a high body count. Then there are guys wondering why some girls so picky, maybe because they dont want a high body count? Hypocrites everywhere. But plenty of Hypocrite women aswell

[MCheetah]

Nah, that's stupid. The problem is, you're conflating and combining all the traits of "modern women." I'm not paying for anyone's date because I'm not your simp or sugar daddy. This doesn't mean I only want a "traditional woman." When I say "modern women," I'm talking about foul-attitude, unfaithful, sh*tty, entitled, awful, spoiled feminist women who want to be simped on and bring nothing to a relationship but problems.

I don't want or need a conservative woman; I just want a woman who isn't a selfish cunt. So yes; there IS an inbetween in wanting a conservative woman who wants to be wined and dined, and wanting a so-called "strong independent woman," who regardless, still wants to be wined and dined.

Th short version is, conservative or liberal; I'm not paying for ANYONE'S food unless they're a close friend. You can go con and simp some other man, but that ain't me.

I do agree though that the men who DO want traditional women, shouldn't expect her to pay on dates. But I don't think any men do this, anyway. This seems like a non-problem which doesn't exist.

[Lizsizzie]

You’re comment is a non-starter. You insist I am the one conflating when you are the one who goes on about how my proposition is wrong because it doesn’t apply to you, but you are not in the group to which I refer. As a post addressed to men who claim they want traditional women, what you - who does not fit that category- believe is of no relevance. Also it is ironic/pathetic that you think it is appropriate to pay for a friend but not your girlfriend or someone you expect to sleep with you. Interesting.

[Lizsizzie]

Just what I find so amazing about men like you is, you expect women to have the lowest standards ever. You think a woman who wants/expects you to put in any effort at all into wooing her, a woman who wants to be wined and dined, which is literally the simplest and most basic form of pursuit, is a “selfish ****”. I think that is so absolutely amazing. And what exactly do you deserve from her? Since you’re willing to do nothing but the absolute least?

[MCheetah]

1. No, I'm not going to give some random fucking bitch money just for having a pussy. I'm sorry you're too much of a little bratty princess to think your coochie entitles you to an hour or two of a man's labor.
2. I never once said I go on dates expecting or wanting to fuck someone, but nice of you to assume you know what men are thinking anyway.
3. I expect people to have standards they themselves can live up to. If all you can offer someone is having a pussy - not even giving it up, just having one - you're entitled to nothing, especially from me. You are entitled to only what you deserve and nothing more. And not a random woman out there is entitled to my money before I even know who she is as a person.
4. Again, your pussy doesn't entitle me to give a flying fuck about you. I can tell how spoiled you grew up and how much your parents failed you, though. Cause even the thought of a guy not simping to your 50 cent ass offends you this much you put in more effort responding to me than you did in this shit MyTake.
5. Thanks for proving, you are indeed, a selfish cunt.
6. Respect is a two way street. I don't just throw money and free dinners at you. If a woman can't respect me, I sure as shit don't respect her. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, little princess.
7. Grow the fuck up and fuck off.

[Lizsizzie]

Respect is a two way street, as you curse out and disrespect someone who has not said one bad word about you. You are a very angry, very unattractive individual. I would suggest, if the idea of women having standards or simply existing or as you are so want to bring up : having vaginas, makes you so angry, you switch to men. I’m sure you would enjoy and perhaps already do enjoy being in the receiving position, seeing as how the very thought of a woman having a vagina is offensive to you. But just as a word of warning, whether you have relations with men or whether you have relations with women, romantic partners or prospective romantic partners if either sex will always expect more from you and to receive more from you than your other friends or family. This is because they do more. So from what I can see you will be unhappy either way. It’s very telling as to your intelligence level that you resort to insulting me as opposed to answering the elephant in the room question: if you demand people to have no expectations of you what do you have the right to expect of them? Lastly, it is my my take, of course I would respond to responses on it, I receive notification to that effect. You are the one so offended by the thought of any woman having standards that you found my post and blew a gasket, you have no idea how I was raised, or what I expect, and I certainly have never and would never entertain the thought of doing anything with you whatsoever, so I’m not sure why you’ve gotten so big in the britches so as to formulate your child’s rant as though I had ever personally had any relationship therefore any expectations of you in particular. I hope you get help.

[ImalwaysrightOK]

I know he's no longer on gag 😞 but @mcheetah was the best really told it like it is.

[nitsuj86]

I think men would be fine with modern women if they were actually "modern" in the sense that they pulled their own weight in a relationship.

I would love for women to contribute without holding it against me as a man, but it doesn't happen. If a woman is paying the bills, she won't be paying them for long. They want to be equal, except for the parts where they benefit from being a woman. Such as the dating world. It's amazing that every modern woman still wants a traditional man when it comes to dating.

So men hear you talking about equality, while we are paying for dates, buying rings and houses, cutting the grass, changing the oil, driving everywhere, all the shit that men have to do, that women seem to ignore we do for them. And we think you are full of shit.

Some complain about it, but we deal with it because we have no other choice.

I pay for dates because I have to, not because I want to. It's because I know that 80% of women are going to not want to see me again if I don't pay for the date, and I'd rather just cover my bases. As they complain to me about the patriarchy.

I would say the men that don't pay for dates are allowed to complain because "modern women" should want to split the bill equally. If they don't well they aren't very modern are they?

[Weapon77]

I totally agree that a lot of men out there are unreasonable and/or just bitter. But you also need to understand the despair felt by men like me who are virgins and avoided hookups and have genuinely tried to find good women and have found only obstacle after obstacle. I think the bitter guys cry the loudest, so the more reasonable guys get drowned out. I personally find that every girl I like is already taken, and when I tried online dating, that was a disaster. I was either ignored or fetishized for my virginity, for one thing. I know good women like you are talking about do exist, because my female friends are all like that! But I don't understand why I can't find any songle ones who are interedted in me. I realize now that I just have to keep trying to meet girls in person and hope for the best, but it's honestly exhausting. And when I was struggling with desperation, I too often deluded myself into thinking bad girls were actually into me. That kind of thing happens to guys a lot, and even though it's no excuse, that is what leads to so many guys whining and getting bitter.

There is very little overlap between the guys who want traditional women and the guys who want hookups. What actually happens is you have a lot of guys, some incels, some virgins like me, some losers, some just unlucky, who want traditional girls and just have no success for whatever reason. Then you have the players who have sex with all the girls most guys are after. Ultimately, guys should learn about this and learn to not hate all women just because of their bad experiences, and these guys should get wiser and learn to identify bad girls. I had that problem myself, and I'm embarassed, but all I can do is learn from it and move on. Honestly, the problem wouldn't be so bad if someone would just tell guys where to meet good girls because so many guys feel so hopeless and helpless.

[OpenClose]

Hard to say much in regards to complaining about modern women. I prefer them to traditional women, because traditional women want to play a very specific role and demand I play a specific role.

And then I don't mind actually paying for a date. I lament the expectation of it. It feels so one sided like she's such a blessing and I'm nothing of the sort, so I have to pay for the privilege of her time and mine is worth nothing.

I'd say my main complaint about modern women is if they are too selective about where they progress:

Wanting to ditch their traditional roles but refusing to consider a man who doesn't fill his.

Wanting to be seen as strong but not accepting a man who needs support.

Wanting better pay but only considering guys who out-earn her.

Honestly I thought about visiting a more progressive country and seeing what dating is like there. In Scandinavia, I hear women apparently approach more than men. Dates are usually inexpensive coffee dates and they go Dutch (also noting there's a reason they call it "going Dutch"). Basically little-to-no difference in what is expected of either gender.

And there's way less "feigning asexuality" from what I understand. Like it's kinda known that "yeah, we want to fuck each other and are probably picturing each other naked right now. Let's date to see if there's a deeper connection." Compared to dating culture in the US where you'll get a traditionalist saying "that's immoral/unladylike" or a progressive saying "don't sexualize me". As though sexuality is some moral failing.

Like, if that's true about parts of Europe, it sounds AWFULLY refreshing.

[Anonymous]

All of the lesbians I have dated (I am bisexual) are more traditionally masculine than modern men with the benefit of smelling good (hygiene), dressing well, and knowing how to satisfy a woman in bed!

I have never had a woman ask me out and then ask me to pay half but often men will ask to go 50/50 if they don't think they will be getting sex on the first date. As if a woman's body is worth less than a $50 meal. If she won't even kiss him on the first date, which I won't, she's a tease, but if she gives in and hooks up with him she's a whore.

I feel like women see a date as an opportunity to get to know someone and enjoy their company. They take pride in providing the experience because they were the one who asked the other woman out! It's not this weird transactional exchange where if she spends some money the other woman should pay with her body. It's just two people spending time together. They seem to enjoy leading and planning the date so that the more feminine woman can relax into her femininity and be herself.

Some men are still traditionally masculine but honestly, in most cases, lesbians have straight men beat!

[BlueScorpio]

Yes it gets confusing, cause I hear men going back and forth over this. For example this is what I hear:

👨: we just want the good traditional woman back, a homemaker and wife.

👩: I'm a traditional woman he talking about, I would like the man to be a leader and provider. He must take care of me and the children. He must be financially stable so I can be a great homemaker.

👨: why does he have to be financially stable? You must be a goldigger. Forget everything I said, I want the American working/corporate woman back. But don't do that either cause it's emasculating and I hate it.

[7barbieringz]

I just said the other day, if a man wants a house wife he's gonna have to be the sole provider!

Even now with women working full time, they still do the most domestic house work and contribute financial. While men only contribute financially. So, if she's doing all the housework and paying half the bills, aht exactly does she need a man for?

It so funny how these guys will say "modern women are low value" BUT newsflash: MODERN MEN ARE LOW VALUE TOO. A man not willing to even pay for a first date? Are u kidding me? It's ridiculous. They'll except you to pay half, then put out on the first date.. like how is that not the exact depiction of a disgusting low value man? But these guys will happily advertise that they can't provide for a woman then get mad when women don't pick them.

[FootfetishistBoy]

shouldn't it be simple. The one asking for a date is the one who is paying?

[Psychotic_Buddhist]

I can somewhat agree with the sentiment, but truth be told there's always problems on both sides and this is going to sound corny asf but I believe their shouldn't be gender roles, both sexes should equally respect each other mentally, physically, and spiritually, without the need to be overbearing or unconsiderated toward each individuals life situation. It really doesn't matter who pays when and where, we place too much emphasis on how this person of this gender should act, dress, think, be, etc
TL;DR either person can pay, there's really no point in arguing about modern and traditional, we should be trying to reach further as a species, not narrowing our views/perceptions even more with each coming year, and simply blaming others instead of taking responsibility.

[BeMuse]

Not knowing how to cook, clean, or take care of your family doesn’t make you modern in anyway whatsoever, it just makes you incompetent and irresponsible. The only difference between traditional women and modern women is that modern women have some sort of skill set that will earn them a reasonable salary. Everything that was part of being a woman is still part of being a woman, you just have to earn a living now. In trade off, many domestic tasks have been automated with dishwashers, clothing washers, clothing driers, electric/robotic vacuums, refrigeration, electric stoves, AC/heat etc. I mean you’re not splitting firewood and hauling it to the wood stove anymore to cook some eggs in the morning or keep from freezing to death in the winter. You life got a lot fucking easier around the house as a women, but there is a cost that comes with that comfort, thus you have to get off your ass and go earn. It’s pretty fucking simple. The more inflation races, the more you have to earn.

[hahahmm]

Everything has a value and you modern women lowered your value too much to get the benefits of traditional stuff. If you want the benefits then you have to be more traditional.

Also we know that the same woman claiming a man needs to buy her a meal to go on a date is also giving sex for free to a loser/indifferent guy who gives her NOTHING AT ALL. It's just a game a lot of you women play but men have wised up to it and opted out of being the 'nice' sucker.

[Lizsizzie]

Do not start with that you modern woman crap. I am not in that category nor do I behave that way. Go project somewhere else loser. You get what you give, modern woman are just as bad as modern men and y’all deserve each other.

[hahahmm]

@lizsizzie If the shoe doesn't fit why take it personally? I said "a lot of you women" -- Also, if you're not being "more traditional" the shoe definitely DOES fit ya.

[Lizsizzie]

I am literally the definition of a traditional woman lol. I don’t know what you’re on about since you don’t know me, but as you’ve shown in your subsequent reply you are insistent on maintaining your incorrect presumption of who I am and what I believe in and what I’m like (like most of the bitter men in this comment section) based on the fact that I won’t put up with your bitter woe is me, “women bad, man so sad” crap. That doesn’t make me a feminist or a modern woman or any of that. That makes me an adult who can’t stand to hear grown men whine like children.

[hahahmm]

@Lisizzie Oh, so when men voice concerns & preferences it is whining. When women do it's being an adult. It's not traditional of you to lecture men, actually. But as I said, I always put conditions on the stuff I write. If you don't want to be offended then stop taking it personally.

[Anonymous]

"Modern women" are useless to men, except for sex.

If you are a "modern woman" who expects men to "court" you and pay for your meals simply because you have a vagina, when you don't even know how to cook... you are truly useless to a good man EXCEPT for your vagina. You bring no value to his life, EXCEPT for sex.

Modern women continue to reduce their value as humans to their sexuality, and then they complain men only want sex. Well what the fuck did you expect, when that is the only thing you offer that men actually care about?

[Lizsizzie]

Not sure if you actually can read but you’re comment illustrates my point entirely. You want to use women and get mad that those women want to use you, pointless, hypocritical. By the same logic modern men are useless for anything but paying for things, since they only care about their own pleasure, don’t want to take responsibility, don’t want to provide, lead, be fathers, etc. why shouldn’t they deserve modern women.

[CallmeTheKnight]

No, he can still complain about modern women.
People are so one sided and ignorant on this topic. It's honestly sad. If he doesn't want to pay then fine, he doesn't pay, but someone has to.
Who's idea was it to have the date? That's who has to pay. If he never proposed about going on a date, you invited him out, you pay for him. It's not that hard. We men have no problem paying dates. Men just hate that modern women use them for free meals and all that good stuff.

You're not supposed to be going on dates with or accepting anything from people you're not interested in.

[Guy13]

The Modern Women:

-Junk out everywhere with no class.

-Femi-Nazis trying to be men.

-Lesbiand trying to contend there’s a relationship where Purpose (Reproduce), Form (2 vaginas), and Function (same parts don’t work or fit).

There’s your Legacy.

[Lizsizzie]

Not my legacy, not my behavior, but you have a nice day.

[Guy13]

Point taken…. Our legacy

[Exterminatore]

@liz

Cool story bro.

[Alwayreckles93]

@Exterminatore Sir, She is angry because she probably doesn't want to work and wants to live off other men's wallets. She probably sells herself this why I can't stand worldly woman like her Sir. Your comment trigger her and she is mad because she knows you are better then her.

[TheSpaceGnome]

You have a very absurd and narrow view of dating. I don't want either of those types, both traditionalists and hoes are cringeworthy to me.
I want this:
1. Marriage and monogamy with a feminine looking and virginal atheist "tomboy" brained woman who shares my hobbies and interests.
2. Duel income household or work from home as partners.
3. Dates out to places are split 50/50 and are not dinner dates but instead trips to fun places.
4. No kids ever.
5. Each person cleans their own messes.
6. Cooking meals is alternated or based on expertise at given meal types.

[Legion696969]

Firstly, I love your great intelligence which I had problems with at time, s trying to keep up with you? I am tired as I write this though?

Secondly I personally honestly think a real man, a Gentleman always pay, s for a lady on a date, restaurant, taxi, s etc.

A woman is a person who if two people desire love, I think it will happen. Not all men see women for the obvious, (sex).

Love is more important than anything for two human beings if that of course is what they both seek and of course many do? Women and men?

As a Tibetan Buddhist we are taught the word, s of Lord Buddha Shakiymuni when he taught and it is still taught today that all women and girls should be respected and cared for and cherished and treated as Goddesses because they magickally create mystical life that can go on to do so many good thing, s and good Karmic action, s etc.