Should Transgender Bathrooms Exist? (Page 4)
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They should just have cubicles with locks.
Everyone can use cubicles with locks the same damn way.
That's what people have at home! It's not an outrageous concept.
images.dailykos.com/.../2016-05-18_12.30.13.jpg
Transgenderism is wrong. Rather than receive a sex change, which often doesn't make them any happier, they should receive the proper mental care. It is mutilation. If people started pandering to anorexic people where would that get us? 'You know what? you're right, you are fat. Keep going with losing weight. In fact we'll even through in some lipo suction since you're just being what you want in life!'
The "proper mental care" IS a sex change in many cases. According to most major psychological associations, being transgender is fine and trans people should be treated via hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery if they feel they need it. Would you care to tell me why exactly you feel that your personal opinion counts for more than the consensus of actual professional psychologists?
@cipher42 then why are suicide rates with regards to the transgenered so high?
Because transgender people are treated like shit by society? Pretty obvious explanation right there, and one that psychologists actually agree with. Being treated as a freak by society at large really does not help mental health much, I'm sure you'll agree.
@cipher42 doesn't make sense. There are plenty other marginalised groups of society with average suicide rates. The way I see it is they were unhappy before transition and they are unhappy afterwards.
Like who? Who exactly faces discrimination as blatant and widespread as trans people, and what is the suicide attempt rate for that group? Cite your sources. And while your at it, cite me a source that actually supports your conclusion about trans people having a mental illness.
nah, no need to make them. Let them mix, if they look like a woman, women's restroom then, I don't give a shit.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
No, what ever gender they are (down there) is the bathroom they should use. It would be stupid having a separate bathroom... that would be like having a separate bathrooms for gays and lesbians.
1. Gender is not determined by your genitals. or "down there" as you put it.
2. Being gay is not the same as being transgender.
3. But you're on the right track. Whatever gender you identify as is the gendered bathroom you should use.
@ForeverYours39
1. Yes, it is, that's exactly what determines gender, and has for 400,000 years.
2. Maybe some of them are gay and haven't experimented with it, and that's where there illness comes from, wasted time.
3. Sausage or a taco, not a complicated distinction.
@ForeverYours39 well in that case i am a woman now and i will go into the womans bathroom, hey i might get lucky and see you if a stare through the gap in the bathroom stall
@hazoplmeught YOU GO GIRL
@ColinHarvey @hazolmeught
I'm sorry you're just wrong. If you actually do research or take a class on gender, you would know. I have and thats how I know what I know. The gender binary is really only <2000 years old. Greeks would think you were crazy thinking there were only 2 genders.
@ForeverYours39
Let me slap down $5000 so I can take a class on hot dogs and tacos.
Greeks fucked little boys.
@ColinHarvey also, to your #3, there are people born with both or neither. So it is very complicated for more than just your usual Trans people.
@ColinHarvey they did fuck little boys! Good job. The class is a lot more than just learning about penises and vaginas. I'm sorry you have to live your life so uneducated because you won't even do some free Internet searching to educate yourself.
@hazoplmeught if you did that I could still charge you with sexual harassment. And if you really think that would happen if you let people pick which bathroom they use, then that's ridiculous. If someone wanted to sexuality assault or harass someone, they would do it. They obviously already don't care about breaking the law. No bathroom law is going to stop them.
@ForeverYours39
Maybe I didn't graduate in people's genders, but I did get a business degree which told me enough about money well spent.
Why can't we get something besides little boy fucking and 36 genders from the Greeks - where did Aréte get lost in all of the gender neutral bathrooms? I use the search all of the time, I searched "what is chromosome coding for male and female" and got XX and XY. I guess modern science fails in comparison to the Greek aura of keeping women locked up at home so one can screw his little boy lover.
@ColinHarvey Biological sex is determined by chromosomes, genitalia and other physical attributes. Gender is something else that is determined by brain structure and hormones.
@ColinHarvey I bring up the Greeks to point out how gender is a social construct. @ThatNiceGuy gets it. And to show that the gender binary that we use is not as ancient as we think. There is plenty of scientific research to back up gender being as construct.
@ForeverYours39 Really? Like what? Im seriously interested in knowing. I know for a fact that there is evidence that gender is not purely a social construct. You cannot raise a boy who loses his penis as if he were a girl, its has been tried many times and the boy realizes there's something wrong. There are also differences in male and female brains, and trans brains sometimes behave as the gender they identify with. So I dont think you can argue that gender is 100% social construct. I do agree that some ideas have been created by us over the years.
@ThatNiceGuy Obviously convincing someone that they're the opposite gender than they were born isn't normally going to work. Most people are comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth. To assume that everyone's gender is congruent with their sex is such a narrow worldview.
@ForeverYours39 Okay explain your reasoning?
1. Because when a baby is born, when they ask if it's a girl or boy they look at the genitals... correct?
Caitlyn Jenner is a GUY with balls and a penis... boobs don't make him a women.
2. I was referring to, if the natural girls felt uneasy because of them being in the bath room like if they were guys. Then why don't have lesbian make them uneasy as lesbians are attracted to girls as guys are, same sexual harassment. I was proving how stupid the whole separate bathroom issue is.
They look at its genitals to tell if it's male or female. Not boy or girl. The fact the boy or girl is written on the tag, or whatever, is actually incorrect because that baby hasn't told you what gender they identify as.
I'm pretty sure Caitlyn had a sex change. She's been a woman her whole life because that's how she identified. After her sex change, she is now female.
To your poorly worded second point;
Lesbians do not make me uncomfortable because I don't know who is a lesbian. Also, I have faith that no one is trying to be a pervert in the bathroom. I've never had a problem with another woman in a bathroom before. I wouldn't have a problem using a bathroom that men/males also used.
@itsallover If gender is a social construct like people like to assume, then anybody should be able to change their identity. Boys who are treated and brought up as girls from birth would have no way of knowing that they are actually men. Biology makes them realize that something is wrong and they feel male. There is evidence for this. Now try to give us some scientific arguments for your point of view otherwise you're just making stuff up.
@ThatNiceGuy I don't even think gender is 100% a social construct. To claim that every aspect of humanity is solely caused by either only socialisation or biology is redundant.
Using a few cases of people 'realising' their gender is wrong is a weak argument. Obviously not all people have brains that are incongruent with their sex, so of course they'll realise something is up. The point is, not everyone feels they were born into the wrong sex, so obviously not everyone can be transgender, which is what you seem to claim. Studies do show that many transsexual have brains that are structured to be the opposite 'sex' that they actually are, which is abnormal.
@ForeverYours39 how would i get sexual harassment if i said i was a girl? Dont judge me. In fact from my stall, i would point my penis upward and in your direction and spray the pee over the stall and into your mouth as a female.
DONT JUDGE ME MY GENITALS DONT DECIDE GENDER BELIEVE WHAT I SAY
see how stupid that sounds
*transgenders
press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
@itsallover 1st off stop trying to be PC if you dnt know what you are talking about
1 according to our current society transgender and transexual is two different things
2nd off the link said male to female transexuals have female neuron numbers TF is a female neuron number? Do you know what neurons are? Have you taken biology? They also said sex hormones could not affect the number of neurons (contradicting themselves). I bet you could find the manliest man and he could have less neurons than a woman because i dont think I am straight bc of the number of neurons i have. sorry
@hazoplmeught What do you mean, trying to be PC?
1) If you looked, you'd see I corrected my mistake in my second comment with the link
2) Yes, I know what a neuron is, I study neuroscience. They clearly are referring to the number of neurons typically found in the female BSTc. How does saying that hormones don't affect neuron numbers mean they're contradicting themselves? The aim of the investigation was to look at the number of neurons in this brain area, not the effect that hormones have on them.
@itsallover the study was on transexuals not transgenders (you can't change that), are you saying they are the same thing? ALL POLITICALLY CORRECT PEOPLE WHO TROLL MY OPINIONS GO!
@itsallover "it has no effect" i deem the information useless then
@hazoplmeught Transexuals are those who have gone through transitioning. The fact that hormones didn't have an effect on their neuron numbers goes to show that they probably had the same number of neurons in that particular brain area even before transitioning.
Which only goes to show that gender is not solely the result of hormones.
@itsallover so basically a male had the same amount of neurons before transitioning, as i said this is useless. "it has no effect" + "had the same number of neurons [the male] ... before transitioning" USELESS INFORMATION!!!
@hazoplmeught How is it useless? If anything it just proves my point.
@itsallover how? like how? like in what way?
@ForeverYours39 Your social argument is complete BS, DNA says XX is a female and XY is a male.
Male and female are sexes. Man and Woman are genders. Sex and gender are not the same thing.
@ForeverYours39 Dictionaries says they have the same meaning.
There's no sense arguing just leave it. They'll keep speaking their made-up Klingon sci-fi language until this trans thing blows over and Pfizer gets another opportunity to load people up. This skip logic won't last long.
ooh, that is a really hard one, it's all really stupid becuase you know that if they allowed it, there would be some idiot that would go and ruin it for everyone else.
Who is in the bathroom stall next to you doesn't really matter, does it?
Since I identify myself as an attack helicopter, should there be a special bathroom for me as well?
LOL. Nice
I really don't understand how these "transgender" people are any different from the guy in th psych ward who insists that he's Elvis Presely or a poached egg.
omg there is no like, LAW that says you will get arrested if you are a woman and go in the men's bathroom and vice versa. Why are people making this into an issue?
I don't think so. Not all transgender people identify with a "third gender". Those people want to be considered either male or female. We should include them without judgement.
I don't think so. We should be like Europe and have same bathrooms for everyone. Put a camera in there and stop this thing in America where seeing genitals is so taboo.
I just think that it's just stupid to separate men from women just to take a piss. Just put mixt toilet everywhere and no more problems.
No they should not exist. It's a mental illness and those people need treatment to become functional, building more bathrooms is not the answer.
Nope. It's pointless. A bathrooms a bathroom I go in there to pee not to check people out anyway so I wouldn't care if it was boys and girls sharing one either. As long as there are no pervs it fine
Unisex bathrooms, starship troopers style. Everyone uses the same restroom. Men, Women, Trans, etc all have just one facility to use.
When exactly did it happen that we bent over and spread our ass-cheeks far apart for a dry anal-fucking to every single minority concern?
@BlueCoyote
There is a difference between making things generally fair and bending over for every little petty issue of any little minority group.
This is not bending over. It's simply getting rid of discrimination and enabling a minority group to feel more free and accepted in a society. Just like it doesn't hurt anyone to let gay people marry, it doesn't hurt anyone to let a transgender person use the bathroom he/she wants to use. It literally doesn't even affect you (or me for that matter).
@BlueCoyote
Did you read the original post of this take? There are legit security issues and they are there for a reason while both apply to transgender going into whatever bathroom they identify as well as with unisex bathrooms.
So tell me when exactly did such a little minority became so utterly important that they stand above the well-being of the majority.
To show numbers of how little a minority they are: "It used data from two surveys. One was a statewide health survey in Massachusetts that asked people if they were transgender and found that 0.5 percent of people said they were. Another was a California survey about tobacco use among lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. Just over 3 percent identified as transgender, implying that 0.1 percent of adults in California were transgender, based on the Williams Institute’s estimate of the percentage of the total population that is L. G. B. T. (3.5 percent)."
All of those state BELOW 1% of the population.
Okay, so let's say it's 0.5%. Nationwide in the US in absolute numbers, that's still over 1.5 million people. I wouldn't say that's "nobody". These are 1.5 million individuals with a desire to be free and to be treated fairly by society just like you or I. Besides, I don't buy into these "safety concerns". Over 90% of rapes are committed not by a creepy stranger in a dark alley or in a public bathroom but by a close family member (father, uncle etc.). Also, if you want to rape or sexually assault someone, you don't need to go to a public bathroom. There are many women who say they're being sexually assaulted at their job for instance.
And finally, I didn't say we have to let them choose. All I'm saying is to not discriminate against them. You wouldn't want to go to a women's bathroom because you identify as a man. Probably you would feel humiliated if the government forced you to go to a women's bathroom. That's exactly how transgender people feel. And if people are too concerned
about this safety issue, well, it wouldn't be too hard to simply make a third type of bathroom labeled "unisex". In fact, many small restaurants here in Europe simply have a room (instead of a stall) with a door you can lock and inside there is a urinal AND a normal toilet and the sink to wash your hands is either also in that room or outside in the hallway for everyone to use.
@BlueCoyote
Imagine yourself being a wedding-planer. You know there will be 20 guests and with whatever plan you are going for you will ultimatively have at least one person feeling uncomfortable. You have two options to handle a thing: Will you make a single out of 20 people for sure feel uncomfortable or take the risk that the other 19 will feel uncomfortable?
Now imagine that its not 20, but 100-300 people and one single one of them will feel uncomfortable.
I know what the answer would be to me and that's the governments job. Their job isn't to care about every single individual, but to create the best environment for as many people as possible (in theory, in practice most politicians are corrupt anyway - but thats a different topic).
Now obviously in a perfect world everyone would get perfect treatment, but thats not how it gets and if there are decisions to make where it benefits one group and harms another the decision is to take with the majority. Simple as that.
And those 3rd bathrooms you are talking about are not lawfully forced, but usually placed in bigger places (malls for example) and by the free choice of the owner of said place. The argument here is about creating a law though about how things have to do and there the approaches you and the Asker are suggesting are ridiculous.
I totally disagree with your utilitarian approach. Every person's feelings are important.
HOWEVER, you're still totally missing the point. This is NOT about mere feelings. If you really think the feelings a transgender person has who is forced to go to the wrong bathroom and identify as a different sex are the same feelings as those of grandma who doesn't want to sit next to uncle Joe at the wedding, you're simply being incredibly intolerant and cynical. Let's try your example again but this time, let's not take transgender people. Let's take handicapped people. Let's say "Let's not offer special handicapped toilets for people in wheelchairs and oh gosh, please, none of those stupid white stripes on the streets and stairs for blind people! They just make stuff look ugly. Why should the government for that kinda stuff? Sorry handicapped people but we can't make everyone happy! You're a small minority and nobody else needs these adjustments! Don't be so whiny!" I hope now you
finally realize what a stupid opinion this is. Transgender people are not being uncomfortable the way a bunch of wedding guests might be uncomfortable. They feel DISCRIMINATED. That's not the same thing. They are deeply unhappy to be in the wrong body, some of them even commit suicide because society doesn't take them serious. Comparing this to a bunch of unsatisfied wedding guests clearly shows how you have absolutely no understanding or empathy for people who are different from yourself.
@BlueCoyote
It is a fictional anecdote to make the dilemma of the well-being of one person compared to the well-being of several visible and more easily to grasp. It was meant to simplify the issue for better understanding.
Apparently that went over your head though, so in the future you should be careful of using the word idiot. I am out since I don't know how I should explain the issue even simpler than that and I don't intent to find out.
Well I'm sorry but it pisses me off when people discriminate others for absolutely no good reason. It wouldn't hurt you to give transgender people more equal rights, just like it doesn't hurt you to let gay people marry or black people use the same bathrooms as white people. The only reason you're against it is because you personally find transgenderism stupid and that is probably because you don't know anyone in that situation and thus can't empathize with these people. And saying that being transgender is a mental disorder is about the same as the people in Uganda who claim that gay people and pedophiles are the same.
why don´t we have like 10 bathrooms? one for every sexual orientation in existence, including one for each gender belonging to the specific orientations?
sounds expensive
@Reach500 it was obvioulsy sarcasm :D you have a dick, you go to male toilet, you have a pussy, you go to womens toilet. that easy. if you´re biologically in between, which is rare, i guess you can choose.
noooo and I hope it NEVER does. sorry... I'm not comfortable with it.
Okay so you being comfortable is more important than other people's equality. That's not selfish at all!
@ForeverYours39 hun dont get offended, thats just my opinion.
I'm not offended. I couldn't be because I'm not trans.
I get that it's your opinion. I'm trying to show you that maybe your opinion is closed minded. If you say no to people doing things because it makes you uncomfortable, that's completely unfair to them. Did you ever stop to think what makes them uncomfortable? What if you were forced to use the men's room because everyone saw you as a man even though you personally identified as a woman? That would be very uncomfortable for you, right?
People in the 50s didn't want black people sharing their space because it made them uncomfortable, but that was unjust.
People in the 50s and 60s didn't want interracial couples to be able to get married because it made them uncomfortable, but that was unjust.
People forever didn't want gay people to get married because it made them uncomfortable, but that was unjust.
Do you see a pattern here?
@ForeverYours39 and having them feel comfortable is more important? we won't agree to this anyway, but I get what you're saying. but i wouldn't like it
Honestly, yeah. The minority feeling comfortable is more important than the majority. The majority already has the upper hand so it's our job to help them so that everyone can be happy. And to top it off, your discomfort is just due to misinformation.