The Birth of the Player: It Ain't Pretty

[ice_cat]

I promise that I used to be a nice person. Every time I was rejected by a girl, I still tried to be a good friend and I suppressed all the "ulterior" motives that I had. It is becoming clear that this was a mistake. Not only does everyone lose all respect for you, it drives you to a point of emotional ruin. For what cause? Nothing, except to make the girl that rejected you feel comfortable and to lessen her supposed guilt.

Here's the thing. I made a decision recently, that I'm done with relationships. From now on, I will accept nothing other than a strictly physical relationship from any girl. I would never have done such a thing before and I used to try so hard to see girls as people who didn't deserve to be used in that way. Well, too bad. That approach doesn't work, and so far this new approach seems to work better. If they even sense that you care about them, it's over for you. The Internet was right, thanks PUA and the other douches that somehow knew this stuff.

My decision came from the following realization. Any girl that rejects me or flirts with me and then doesn't want to date me, is not a friend of mine. It is an insult. Sure, 'everyone has their preference' and 'but they can't control their emotions' or 'love is mysterious.' Well, too bad for you. If you can't control your emotions, then I have no respect for you and much less reason to be your friend. As far as I'm concerned, if my friend didn't think I was dateable, she's not my friend.

I can sense the people itching to comment. "Oh, the saltiness. I can't look!" Well, sure I'm bitter, but the thing is, I have feelings too, and I have the right to get angry. Ordinarily, when I used to get rejected, I would talk to my friends and say, "She's a great person, but I guess her life's complicated right now" or "She doesn't think it'll work out but I still want to be her friend."

Not this time. Instead I texted my friends and I called her a bitch and said that I never wanted to see her again. You know how that felt? Good. I don't understand why men are shamed out of feeling anger. I have to put a lid on my emotions every time something happens until it turns into a seething resentment. Not any more. Sorry girls, if you reject me, you're a bitch and you just proved it to me and all my friends. What you think about yourself or me doesn't matter, because you're wrong.

Ahh but then, there is going to be another group of commenters now. The "self-improvement" people. I went very far down the self-improvement rabbit hole. I actually LISTENED to the criticism I got from girls. Do you know how much girls appreciate that? Absolutely zero. It strikes them as needy and insecure if a man even thinks that he should work on himself after being rejected. Yes, the contradictory nature of your thoughts and actions is in fact this ridiculous ladies. If you think I'm some smelly neckbeard with no life, you'd be wrong. As far as I'm concerned I have worked on myself way too much with very little return on my investment.

This is the birth of the player/jerk ladies and gentlemen. I get it now. I get what happens to guys to make them act this way and it seems like a totally normal reaction to the situation they're immersed in. It's a sad reality but there's no escaping it.

Really, it's my fault, this is me giving up.

[cth96190]

You are going down a road that leads to a dark place that is inhabited by the likes of Elliot Roger.
It is not an insult when a female rejects you. It is an expression of her preference.
Reverse the situation.
If the societal norm was for females to do the approaching, should it be an insult for you to decline an approach by a female in whom you are not interested?
Your attitude is entitled, wrong headed and dangerous.
I have an alternative to suggest, based on my own experience.
When I was a teenager and then a 20-something I could almost not get a date. Why? Because I was a hard working, clean cut, well mannered, good looking young man who was buildings a good career. I was (and remain) conservative and a bit socially awkward.
The overwhelming majority of girls in that age range want players and dirtbags. They find these men to be 'fun' and 'exciting', because at that age women thrive on a rollercoaster ride of heartbreak, as they live through their personal soap opera.
Okay, that was their choice and their absolute right to make it.
We cannot and should never try to dictate the actions of other people, but we can choose how we respond to their actions.
My response was not to join them in the gutter by trying to become a player, or something else that I was not.
I concluded that the only honourable course of action was to walk away, which I did. I went MGTOW monk before there as a name for it.

[ice_cat]

I regret writing this take in this way. I don't think anyone is really going to understand what I'm trying to say here. Just ignore this take and anyone looking at this comment, don't comment, just pretend like this whole article doesn't exist

[Mrwoo99]

Yeah but it's wrong when good guys get nothing and bad people are rewarded. Don't you think theit's something not quite right when women choose these men?

[cth96190]

@Mrwoo99
I could write a whole paper for you on the psychology behind why women choose players and bad boys, especially when they are young.
The minds of young women have been manipulated by the media, which is owned by the global elite, who have an agenda to bring down Western Civilisation by destroying the family and causing fewer white babies to be born. Other races have been affected, but they were collateral damage, rather than the intended target.
From the moment that girls are born their minds are imprinted with images of the narrative of the girl from a good family who falls for the misunderstood bad boy who has a heart of gold, which only she can see. This is the bullshit soap opera narrative into which the girls have been conditioned to want to insert themselves.
It is not until they are about 30 that most females have sufficient life experience to be able to tell the difference between a true alpha male and the dirtbags who they were programmed to think were alpha males.

[Mrwoo99]

Why do the elite want to bring down western civilisation? Is that why men in suits funded feminism to destroy the family unit and get them hating men?

[cth96190]

@Mrwoo99
Yes, Feminism is a child of Marxism, which was created by and is controlled by the very globalist plutocrats against whom the Marxists imagine they are fighting their class struggle.
The elite want to destroy Western Civilisation because it is only Western Civilisation that has the capacity to stand in the way of their plan to create a hellish global police state.
This is not a so-called conspiracy theory, it can be found in books written by members of the elite during the past century or so. They actually tell us what they intend to do.
If you want to understand what is really going on, rather than the smoke and mirrors show that is intended to distract and mislead you, become a regular listener to the daily podcast at www.infowars.com

[TakeMaker]

You claim to have been a good guy but then go on to explain quite clearly that your actions were governed by what sexual interaction you could receive from women. You then go on and ramble about respect and being insulted by women not wanting to let you put your dick in them, you're fooling yourself if you ever thought you respected women or that you were a nice person. Your whole attitude, the way you've been playing some kind of deceitful game to get your dick wet, how you've failed so miserably to fool women into sleeping with you and then had the arrogance and ignorance to turn it round and blame woman kind because your tricks didn't work... is laughable. You're a joke, and your need to tell us about your amazing epiphany just shows how utterly desperate for female attention you are.

You need to start liking yourself and to stop placing your worth on your sexual success. This fake bravado is childish and will only hurt you, woman kind as a whole doesn't give two fucks that you've decided not to date us.

[ice_cat]

Firstly, you're the only one going to great lengths talking about sex here. As a matter of fact, when I took the strictly physical/sex-only route women seemed to respond better. When I was rejected it was always in a relationship way.

One girl actually told me (and I quote): "I am really tempted to hook up with you, but I don't feel like it'll turn into a relationship." You're not even understanding what my point is here. Anyway, I never used any "tricks" to attract to women and I actually do have a lot of female friends that I am totally respectful to. I am still respectful towards the girls that rejected me.

But if you think about it, in many ways it is an insult that a girl wouldn't want to date me. What else is there to think? "Oh well, I just wasn't good enough, time to work on myself" or "It's her choice, I guess I should just keep getting rejected." Those options are emotionally exhausting and as I've learned not productive. Easier: Well, I guess she was dumber than I thought.

[TakeMaker]

It isn't an insult, it doesn't mean you weren't good enough. It means she doesn't find you sexually attractive.

I'm not understanding your point because you said this:

That approach doesn't work, and so far this new approach seems to work better.

You're saying this new approach works, which heavily implies your desired result is sex since the working approach is having casual sex with no commitments, not gaining emotional intimacy from a partner.

If you aren't talking about sex when you speak of "using" then what exactly are you using them for?

Also confused where you day that if a woman isn't attracted to you then she isn't your friend, which contradicts your last response which says you have female friends who I assume you aren't sleeping with or in relationships with...

[ice_cat]

*sigh*

Not sexually attractive means "not good enough (for their standards, however twisted they may be)." This is not a difficult concept to grasp and it is the reality.

You're not understanding my point here. My desired result was not sex before. However, now that I have changed my desired result to sex, everything is much easier. Sexual rejection is much easier to tolerate (it's fun actually). Also, I didn't mean to say that I want to use women in this take. I merely said that I wouldn't accept anything other than a physical relationship (and that I would be upfront about that).

My female friends are mostly older girls, girls in relationships or girls where we clearly have no chemistry together. I'm not an idiot and I can tell the difference between a girl where we get along with well and a girl where there is a little more than that. Those few female friends I had, all rejected me.

[Anonymous]

Women dont want assholes, they dont really want nice guys either. they want a driven man that has something going on in his life than just her AND respects her enough to spend time with her. GIRLS, who can't tell the difference between asshole and real confidence, want the asshole bad boys. you have to understand that women have stages of maturity, as well as men.
we care so much about women until we get older and then we start to care more about our future. that is when women notice us. you think women go after the successful men because of the money? not really. it is because those successful men are driven by a purpose other than carnal pleasures. women want men to care for them but at the same time women DONT want men to put her first before anything else. its a confusing concept that you won't understand until you reach a certain maturity and understanding yourself. you have to keep an open mind.

For example: Say you are a soldier in world war 2 and you're about to leave for battle. your girlfriend is begging you not to go and is crying but you have to protect your country. you have to answer the higher calling to defend the nation. you have a RESPONSIBILITY to something greater than yourself AND your girlfriend. she'll cry and cry, but she'll love you more than ever and respect you more than ever.
Now lets say you suddenly dropped your bags and say you changed your mind and you decided to stay with her instead of going to war. what do you think she will think? She'll be ecstatic and happy. at first. but she'll grow to resent you and even be disgusted by your decision to ignore your responsibility and purpose for her. she'll grow apart from you and eventually break up with you and you dont understand why. you gave her everything she asked. so WHY? Because you put her before your responsibilities and held her on a pedestal to worship instead of your own goals and decisions.

dont hate women for rejecting you. you should take it as a good sign. if she rejected you then she didn't see what you had to offer. why the HELL would you feel bad. you should feel glad that you didn't make the mistake of being with someone who doesn't appreciate you.
my rule for dating is, if the girls isn't HELL YES about dating you, then dont settle for her. ALL men deserve a woman that is HELL YES on dating you. Anything LESS is not worth your time. Have a purpose and value YOURSELF first, but dont devalue others for their decisions. No matter how bad that decision is. done

[Tdieseler]

When I first saw your post... i knew i had to take a look (props on posting as yourself too.. at least you aren't lying... you don't give a fuck lol) I wanted to welcome you into the category. To be honest... this is just step one. Like you, some of us started out as those nice guys and one day we felt like ^^^ that. The funny aspect was when i switched over, i didn't realize at the time that women don't even know they are doing it lol, creating a bunch of jerks.. then complain later. You know the saying that girls mature faster than guys... i bet you think its total crock now huh lol..
Sad to say son, but it took you a while (22-23)... ur just realizing that you should do your own thing now? You are just in the angry stage now, but i still don't believe you should label yourself as "Player" not yet anyway. In order to get that title... do some learning.. go back to that "friend" that rejected you... Make HER love you like crazy, then dump her ass. THAT is what a true player does... controls the situation.
This is only the first step, the realization... all that anger, all those questions and all those lies.
Girls saying they want "nice" guys but you are a nice guy, a gentleman (i think) but you still get rejected and they go to the so-called Jerks. I do understand how you feel man but again.. this is just step one. this is your realization on the fact that females, most of them anyway, are full of absolute shit and you have to take control or you will be blown around like a leaf.
I don't agree with the "if you reject me you are a bitch" thing though... yea sure some if not most are full of themselves but thats when you gotta be smarter. Remember how i said find that girl that rejected you and turn things around? just like that.
Not wanting some emotional connection anymore doesn't make you a Player..(makes you a "jerk" though)... what makes you a Player is being able to get that out of other people. make Them like you. again, you have a long way to go... one day, that anger is gonna come down... mine did.

[Tdieseler]

Wanna call in the gang... either i get criticized or confirmed...
@anonman32 @SnatchFinderGeneral @Mistnigqa808 and im sure there's more but later lol

[anonman32]

i think that holding a grudge against people for what others did in the past is not good on the other side if you reject someone the least you can do is give a sound reason why. if you gonna reject people but leave them in uncertainty then sorry but you are a fucking idiot, no matter if you are a woman or a man.

[Tdieseler]

@anonman32 :( I don't know if that agrees with me or labels me a moron... lol.. im fine with either.. i just don't get it. im not sure thought, its nice to have a reason why you are rejected, but do people have to? I can understand ghosting someone... gotta give a reason or you can drive someone literally insane but rejection?

[ice_cat]

Honestly, I feel like I opened a massive can of worms with this take and I really don't understand why lol... All I was saying was that I was pretty much giving up on long-term goals with women and focusing on short-term ones and I actually got BETTER responses. "Player" could be the wrong word for that. I could go into more detail and maybe even write a take on it. As soon as they find out that you don't want anything serious or a relationship, BAM everything is easier and girls that actually want a relationship are chasing after you.

[ice_cat]

As for this particular conversation, I believe that most people could give a sound reason why they rejected someone. At least, I definitely could. Maybe most girls haven't really put enough thought into what they're attracted to to say for sure. Even so, I don't think that's a legitimate excuse. If you read my other take (https://www. girlsaskguys. com/relationships/a29508-role-reversal-understanding-male-bitterness-through-a-story) I elaborate on the frustration that guys feel by vague and impossible to work with rejections from girls.

[Tdieseler]

I honestly don't see the can of worms... my only objection was that you aren't at the player stage yet... you are just hatching. and im surprised it took you this long.
"As soon as they find out that you don't want anything serious or a relationship, BAM everything is easier and girls that actually want a relationship are chasing after you."
Funny how that works eh? and its very.. VERY true... one of the reasons is because women always try to change shit... feel like they have made a difference. If you come to them as nice, there's nothing to change... but if you come to them as damaged or a dick and Then you become nice... they feel accomplished or some stupid shit like that.. like they did something.
"Maybe most girls haven't really put enough thought into what they're attracted to to say for sure"
thats because even they themselves don't know what they want. They just go according to stereotype. Nice guy, ambitious... blah blah... but really wants a thug.

[ice_cat]

Well... I may or may not agree with you. I feel like by giving up on long-term relationships/"finding love" I was immediately freed from all that pressure which probably immediately made me more attractive (to women and in general). And I also agree that the term "player" was misplaced here and I'm probably not yet (or may never really be) a real "player."

I really should have emphasized in this take that I didn't hate women or even necessarily blame them. As far as I'm concerned it's a societal issue that is exacerbated by the indirect manner in which women communicate their desires. A difference which according to feminism and our modern interpretation of gender, DOESN'T EXIST. Ultimately I feel like the problem is a lack of synchronization between modern society and biology which leads many men down a long road of frustration.

[Tdieseler]

".. lack of synchronization between modern society and biology.." finally, the words I've been looking for. A long known concept that i couldn't put into words. I also like how women always act like they had nothing to do with it. I had to call one of them out just recently on this take. Like i said, the reason why you got more "attractive" is because women started seeing something in you that they can change. Its like taming a dragon... feels more accomplishing than just acquiring a tame one. That fuck-you mentality will get you hated by many females... but thats how you filter out the morons and there are A LOT. go for the girls who know that this is not who you are but who you became... they are the understanding ones... and soon, you will look forward to that long relationship again.

[Anonymous]

I've been in your shoes. Please, let me save you some time.

My "birth of a player" moment came after my first girlfriend. I loved her, but she cheated on me. That hurt me a lot at the time. More than most people can imagine, I think. My emotions probably lasted two - three years. Of course we broke up, however I housed very strong emotions towards that woman that festered in me for a long time. So here was my journey with "being a player".

First I had my rebound relationship where I just used the woman for sex even though I promised her commitment. We broke up once we both moved on to college. After we broke up I felt a pang of guilt. I used a woman who was perfectly good to me for sex. Well, I wouldn't do that again. Casual, consensual sex only from here on out. I didn't want to hurt women like my bitch of an ex did to me.

Next was my tinder craze. I'd have casual sex with women. I was kind of awkward at it, but I got better at first dates as time went on, and then those first dates started turning into sex more often as I lowered my standards a bit and got better at conversation. Eventually, I got with a woman who made a video with me. We posted the video online and it got a bunch of hits. This was the end of my first tinder craze, as I wanted to stop risking STD's and find a new source of fulfillment.

Well, the porn video became a hit. Something like 200k views. Sure, there were tons of guys who were watching the woman, but there were also thousands of women who thought I was hot. This is where my experimentation phase began. I got reaaaally good at talking and flirting with women. I would talk to them online, get their snapchat, and flirt with them there. I think I went through 60-100 women like this, in the age range of 18-35. I just kept on and kept on flirting with women, sometimes 5-10 at a time, and I eventually got pretty good at glancing at what they said and responding in three seconds without thinking about it. Sure, some things in this phase didn't make me proud. I asked for tit pics of some people's wives (and got them). I've been told "I love you" more times than I can count even though they've only ever seen videos, pictures, and texts from me. And a lot of these women were even conventionally attractive. Small waist, big boobs, and a cute face. So after a few months of that I wanted to put my skills to the test and go back to tinder.

[Opinion Owner]

Of course I started to do pretty well on tinder. I was more fit, better looking, and better at taking pictures than the first time I tried, in addition to being very experienced with first date conversation and flirting in general. I got laid a lot. Almost whenever I wanted, in fact. I used condoms every time and had a Plan B pill for if my condom broke. I took STD tests every 6 months, but that was honestly not enough for the number of women I was going through. Once a month would've been much more responsible, but of course there's a limit if you don't show any symptoms.

Finally, my sexual skill peaked. I was fucking hot girls and I was pretty good at having and giving orgasms. My sex life was objectively "fantastic".

I didn't feel a damn ounce of pride. Or anything, really. Other than the need to take a shower.

[Opinion Owner]

People's bodies start to become... a blur. I don't remember who had shaved pussies and who didn't. I don't remember very many names. Overweight women left as good a mark in my mind as fit women. Sex felt utterly mechanical after a while, even if I put all of my passion into it and was sweating afterwords. Honestly, I'd rather masturbate than have sex with a random woman. The validation that you get from nailing a hot chick doesn't do anything for me any more, because I know how much the important parts of my life (my grades, my job, my friends) suffered when I put in excessive time to get laid. The STD's that I risked (but never got because of condoms) could have seriously ruined my life. Not to mention what would have happened had I impregnated someone. I got sick of risking that shit to boost my ego.

[Opinion Owner]

So now everything is gone. I deleted all the phone numbers of the women I was sexting (the ones who liked my porn video). I deleted the numbers of the women I was having sex with in real life. I deleted my snapchat and readded all of my real friends on a new account. I'm now just an average Joe again.

I shouldn't have let that first bitch hurt my ego. I should've just let it go and walked away. She wasn't even good enough for me. I don't know why I was sad that we broke up. She was a waste of my time.

I'm going to go for a relationship when it feels right. I'm done with casual sex. I know a lot about myself now and what it is that I want from a relationship. I'm not willing to date just anyone, they have to be a perfect match for me in looks, personality, intelligence, and principles, but that's what I'm waiting for now.

If you still want casual sex, I'll gladly give some pointers and erase some misconceptions. Or if you have any questions in general. Just comment for a truthful ans

[Opinion Owner]

*truthful answer.

[Opinion Owner]

Also, take one lesson from me at least: write down all of your favorite things. Just a nice comprehensive list. Every day, poor your heart and soul into the things that you care about. Because if you spend your time trying to do things that only other people care about, then you're never going to be happy. Your self esteem has to come from an approval of yourself, not the approval from others.

Also, visit the gym 3 times a week and practice a good diet. Having a good, strong body doesn't take too much time and frankly will get you better dates than an unattractive body.

[Robbed]

Actually, I get your point and I'm totally with you... a lot of the way. I see how putting your all energy into a futile effort that leads to repeated rejection leads to wanting to put an emotional wall up and say fuck you all! I get the get them before they get me attitude. I get the if they're only going to use me and treat me like shit why can't I do the same in return? I see it as survival and self preservation.. and giving up 😞. I think some girls (and guys) deserve to be called a bitch - because they are - and deserve to get a taste of their own medicine. I get you wanting to get yours finally rather than putting your feelings aside, leting them walk all over you, and letting them hurt and use you instead.

Where im not with you is your idea of fuck any woman who "rejects" and "insults" you by simply just wanting to be your friend. I just don't agree with the all or nothing attitude - and especially the expectation that they must give you sex or they are a manipulative bitch... its maybe more the exception than the rule - or at least seems to be- but, some women may truly want to be friends & ate turning you down because 100% chemistry & return rate on dating isn't realistic. Women are not always rejecting you personally, though it may seem that way, especially to someone who has often been rejected... if they turn you down nicely and with respect I think that's wayyyy better than leading you on and/or being not that into you.
Sorry, in this matter you come across entitled and like a shallow dick. But come across is the operative phrase. i think you're doing it because of hurt and pain and you are actually not at all an entitled, shallow dick... I think you're still the nice guy that's trading in his big boy pants to try on his new fuck the world pants... If you were this shallow dick only thinking with his dick you wouldn't have tried so hard to be friends, listen, try to self improve (btw improve for you alone!) And the fact you're justifying your decision shows there is a struggle... I think you're mad and bitter and this is a manifestation of that... A front.. So, try not to get sucked into that rabbit hole either! Reading between the lines, you seem too nice! Try to find a happy medium of appropriate boundaries and reactions. Protect your heart by saying fuck you to the manipulative, narcissistic, selfish, kniving bitches - not to all women - we are not all like that. Don't displace and generalize. Place where deserved.

😘

[Anonymous]

We all have to make choices which, aren't seen as 'acceptable' or 'nice' by society. I don't judge you at all. I can never imagine myself to be in your place, so it'd be wrong if I pass a judgement to your decision. Your decision is result of what you've experienced so far. Even if I would never want to have a purely physical relationship with anyone :)
I'll tell you what happened with me.
I met a guy who was real nice. He liked me. But he lived in other c ountry.. But I never gave thought to what would happen if we wanted to take our relationship further. My parents would never approve of him for various reasons. I come from a conservative, South Asian family. So... there was no future at all. We decided to stay friends. It was painful for both of us but there was no other choice.
So I have decided that I will not do this to any other guy. I feel so guilty that I, for a short time made that guy feel that we had future even if we didn't. I will probably try to date someone who my parents would approve of, or just marry the guy they want me to marry.
I am sure many people here would object to it and give me crap like 'follow your heart's or 'you have to marry who you love'. Sounds good in theory but if you were in my place, you'd also think differently
In short, do whatever you want and try best not to think what others think of your decision

[ice_cat]

Thank you for your very understanding comment. I sort of knew this take would attract a lot of hate, but women especially don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say here so I'm considering re-writing it to clarify my position.

I understand your cultural problem pretty well actually. I have some female friends who are Muslim that previously thought that love could overcome any religious barrier but they have since become more realistic and decided that they couldn't possibly date someone of a different faith. I guess we make realizations like this as we grow older and as you have correctly pointed out, society often does not respect those decisions even though they really don't understand the context behind them.

I really like this answer actually, it's more in line with what I'm trying to say. Sometimes, even temporarily, a more pragmatic and less popular approach has to be taken. Thanks for your opinion!

[Opinion Owner]

Society wants us to take 'ideal' decisions. If you are a STEM student, you'd pretty much understand that there's no thing such as ideal condition/system lol.
But that's how society works.
When I told my decision to my friends they tried to convince me. One of them even called me 'spineless' because according to that person 'I didn't have guts to stand up to my parents'. It's not so. Well I am not a Muslim but still someone of different faith is no-no for my parents. I know that, if I bring a Christian, Muslim or someone of different ethnicity home they wouldn't approve at all. So why do that? If that makes everyone (including me) unhappy in the end?
Your happiness is what matters. If being a player makes you happy (for now) be it. Probably few years later, you may want to settle down but that's another thing. Probably you wouldn't want to settle down. Still it's OK.

[hellionthesage]

Your going down the wrong path. I understand it and can't really fault you for it but it is the wrong one. Basicly your going to function in a way you don't want because your fed up the proper response is to just be you to not bend over backwards but also not go to the extreme. I mean honestly if you act like an asshole and get the girl what happened? You played right into what she wanted. I actually was reading a post by some one who stated much the same thing as you did that they constantly where rejected for being the nice guy trying to be civil trying to have a real relationship so he stopped and started being the asshole and women flocked to him. He was having sex with a girl and as he put it didn't give a damn about her he was using her until he looked at her face and saw her smiling and he realized he was being used again. He felt sick afterwards no matter which way he whent he was being used, either he was the nice guy getting walked all over or used for emotional support or he was the asshole who was getting used for sex either way he wasn't a person. The solution is be you. Don't pander but don't hate either. Its difficult but I think that it will be worth it to you (admittedly less sex then being the asshole but you also have a better chance at a real relationship because now they are going to be forced to see the real you not the tool not the asshole the real you). Either way good luck.

[howardque]

Followed! I like this take and I feel what you're saying. I don't get how women don't get when a guy likes them, especially when you're friends or social circle. Especially when you're a decent guy who meets them when they have a boyfriend, don't say anything out of respect and then when they're single, try to gradually flirt etc.

I would very much like to see your new take.

I kinda also wonder the message that some women want a decent guy yet the decent guys in their life are not seeing more than the innocent side? If you're equally if not more attractive/desirable, why are you not going after the prize of your guy friend versus the guy who isn't sweet to you etc?

There's no such thing as being too nice. Wtf? It's hypocritical stuff like that which results in many men and women not getting together and having something special.

I am beginning to question being a good guy (nice, confident, charming, caring etc) since it seems to bring nothing but pain.

Good guys seem to get flakiness and taken for granted. A guy who isn't sweet, and even objectifies her, seems to get the sexual her cos "oh I want to get to know the other guy blah blah and the other guy only gets sex". Only gets sex? Are you kidding me? Is sex really that cheap to these women? Sex is meant to be something special.

Pls inform me of your next take. I also have a question and a take I'd love to hear your thoughts on.

[ice_cat]

Thanks for reading and thanks for the follow. I appreciate the points you're making here and I'll use them in describing the male perspective in my next take. I have written one just now if you care to read it, discussing mainly the comments on this article lol... more will be elaborated in the next "real" one though

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a29460-battling-the-hate

[howardque]

Thanks. I agree many people only here use such venomous words and think they know it all. They don't answer the question not form any rational argument, they just launch personal ad hominem verbal thrusts and the irony is don't even know they are dumb or feel any shame sadly.

Good points and I do look forward to your next take, pls keep me posted! Also is be a question which I need to rewrite but you're welcome to look at the draft!

[mir13]

I've felt much of the same anger over the years. After reflecting upon it, I felt that it was all to validate myself and conform to the social norms. And it made me angry and miserable because despite going about things the "right" way I still lost. Even worse, they wanted to "be friends" and later complain about their new relationships with what seemed to be a string of gangsters/druggies. Wasn't just 2-3 girls either..

Change your outlook. There is only one thing that is important: yourself. Do not try to play to social expectations, just do what you want. I personally decided to stop chasing the tail and work on my education and hobbies. It is amazing what one can accomplish in a few years: no student loans, paid off new car, 30k in the bank, a life I am relatively happy with.

Learn how to be okay by yourself and with yourself. A lot of the anger stems from not knowing what the "correct" path is. Morphing yourself to other people's ideas will not work because at the end of the day that is not who you are... and it would show. Learn who you are as a person and project that. Do not be concerned in the least with how others view you. Do not see what you do as giving up but rather as cutting out the nonsense. You want what you want, and if the other person is not willing to provide it, then they are unnecessary and contact should cease.

Best of luck :)

[ice_cat]

Thanks for the well written opinion. To be honest most of my anger stems from "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" that famous triangle of needs that everyone has. Sex is pretty high on that list and delaying that for 10 years while I slave away at my career doesn't sound very healthy. To me it seems cruel to subject any man to that. Not to mention the stress and distraction that this would cause.

So I get what you're saying. One should get their life in order first and foremost and enjoy the things they love. This take basically clarifies my position on relationships. From now on, being in a relationship is not my goal. Hence, no female friend will ever get the "maybe we should date" talk. No more dating. No relationship aspirations (for the foreseeable future). That's the only sustainable approach I can see as I establish my career and wait for women my age to grow up.

But really though, thanks for the opinion and reading, it sounds like you've done some thinking about this.

[the_rake]

I dunno man, I mean you don't have to be all coochy coo with someone that rejected you but at the same time, she's entitled to her standards. I mean, does a girl get to call you a dick because you thought she was too ugly to date but you rejected her politely anyway? I don't think so, personally, I'd rather live in a world where women can reject me freely so long as I can do the same back.

I have no experience with friend zone because nobody that rejected me ever wanted to keep me as their friend and if you don't want to be friend zoned then fine, whatever. But what I can say is that it's good to have social contacts - the more people you know, the more women you know. It doesn't make sense to me to cut out social contacts. If you wanna say "bitch" under your breath next time you get rejected, cool you're letting off steam, I get that.

Anyway I don't see the logic in flipping from one extreme to the other. I get the whole "I feel resentful" vibe, I think we've all been there at some point. I even get making changes so that you aren't overly nice and polite all the time, clinging on to every word or breadcrumb of attention an attractive woman dishes out. That all makes sense. But I don't see how doing the polar opposite is going to help. Let us know if that lands you with some quality women though, I'd be interested to know.

p. s. I wrote a take about nice guys and status, you might be interested in it:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a28841-the-difference-between-the-good-guy-the-nice-guy-isn-t-looks-it-s

[Nothanks700]

Hi! I'm one of those "self improvement" people you speak of! If that's you in the picture, you should have no problem getting a girlfriend. Your problem seems to be in keeping one. So you have the personality of a retarded field mouse? Or you work at long john silvers? Look bud, girls go through the same shit, it's not just you. Frankly everyone seems to find somebody to be with in this life, there are only rare exceptions. I don't know what to tell you, other than stop worrying about women. I don't think you understand "self-improve". It doesn't mean work on your game and your romance skills. It means literally stop worrying about women, and start worrying about you. Find a hobby, build a career, become president (of the local rotary club).

[ice_cat]

Lol thanks for the opinion NoThanks. I agree with you. Except I'm definitely not a retarded field mouse, or so I believe. Furthermore, my first *internship* paid three times more than Long John Silvers if I'm honest. For me, focusing on fun right now is my way of not thinking about women. So I guess, I am still doing self-improvement in a way.

[vonasaurus]

at the start, i felt for you~ as the take progressed, that quickly changed to, "oh, just another "nice" guy who thinks that women owe him and would rather blame us for all of his problems than work on himself".

look, rejection sucks. but it's reality.

i'm a writer, and rejection is the only constant in this line of work. but the potential payoff is huge, and so i keep at it; call me naive, but i still believe that hard work pays off, and you should too.

so get used to rejection. become friends with it, and use it to better yourself. as george r. r. martin wrote: "wear it like armour, and it can never be used to hurt you".

-von

[ice_cat]

Firstly, you don't really have to feel for me, I'm not looking for sympathy here.

Secondly, the "nice guy" trope is used ad nauseum online. I get the concept, really. I would like to clarify that I don't really mind rejection in other areas of life. I've faced a significant amount of rejection. However, in all instances I've never encountered a field in which more work seems to correlate to less success. And trust me, I've "worked on myself" (however that's defined) more than most guys ever would. I've been to therapy for a year, not because I'm crazy but because (as I said before) I want to improve more. I lived and worked abroad, wrote/published a 1000 page book, etc. I don't sit around crying about women all day alone.

I don't feel as though women owe me and I don't blame them for my problems. I blame MY fixation on relationships for my problems. If I concentrated more on my own desires and goals, disregarding society's definition of a "good person" it seems to help everything.

[BellePepper]

If you were a "nice person" you wouldn't be in this situation at all. You treated women like they OWED you. For some reason people don't like that?

Grow up and go see a fucking therapist before you become one of the pathetic mass shooting statistics that insecure boys like you love to latch onto like it somehow proves women are the problem instead of your own anxieties.

[lumos]

But... but... but...
cdn.firstwefeast.com/.../waitertypes_son.gif

[ice_cat]

1. I did not treat them like they owed me. I'm still friends/respectful to all the girls that rejected me.
2. I actually HAVE seen a therapist and he doesn't necessarily think this is a bad way of thinking at this stage in my life.
3. This take doesn't even communicate what I had really intended so a bunch of people are hating on it for literally no reason. I will be re-writing it shortly.

[BellePepper]

Make sure to rewrite your response to me too OP. No therapist is going to tell you it's okay to lie and use people. If you're determined to lie, try not to sound like a moron while you're at it.

[BellePepper]

@lumos IKR? What will OP do if he can't blame all us mean nasty wimens for all his badness? 😮

[ice_cat]

I didn't actually state anywhere that I wanted to lie, use and manipulate people. While it is true that some guys do this, I was not meaning to say that this was my preferred approach. It is clarified here:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a29460-battling-the-hate-redefining-the-player

[BellePepper]

Don't spam me with links.

[ice_cat]

What is actually wrong with you?

[BellePepper]

Other than being a liar who blames everyone else for his problems?

[ice_cat]

Firstly, that response is nonsensical given the question I asked.

Secondly, I have not at any point personally attacked you in this discussion and all you've done is call me names and not provide any useful input. Furthermore you are somehow making the quantum leap to assuming that I will become a mass murderer which is nothing other than preposterous. I can't find any instance in this conversation where I have lied, but please, point it out to me so I can see.

[BellePepper]

I've already pointed it out to you so not only do you lie and blame other people for your issues, you don't listen. You're really on a roll here.

[ice_cat]

Arguing with you is clearly not accomplishing anything. You did not "point out" where I lied. You did do a nice job of ACCUSING me of lying though.

I will say this one more time, I did not state in the take that I wanted to actively deceive and manipulate women, though some guys definitely do, some with a good deal of success. I said that I would shift my focus from relationships to more short-term goals. What was likely not made clear in this take, which I think I've already told you, is that being upfront about that is part of the approach.

If you're "pointing out" my lie about my therapist, while I can't prove it to you I can assure you that he does exist and he does feel that shifting my focus away from relationships to the point of not even desiring them and choosing to pursue less "serious" goals is a reasonable and well though out decision, given current societal shifts and the phase of life I'm in now.

[BellePepper]

Why do you keep lying? Do you think that's somehow going to change the facts of the situation or absolve you? It won't.

[ice_cat]

*sigh*

Fine. I'm a liar. I think all women are bitches. I hate anything with vagina. This whole take was a lie. I'm not a nice person. I'm not even a man. I don't see a therapist. And I'm a pathetic loser.

[BellePepper]

Jesus Christ OP I cannot even with you and your shitty attitude. Stop being so melodramatic. You are not a child.

[ice_cat]

This whole conversation is a waste time. You haven't provided me with any useful information and if anything you're being more of a child than anyone here. Congratulations on your successful troll. The fact that I'm even responding to you basically proves to the world how dumb I am. Good job.

[BellePepper]

Lmfao go find a therapist and stop acting like a child.

[Tdieseler]

The level of ignorance in some women never fails to astound me... Right here is a guy saying that being that stereotypical "nice guy" is the reason why he feels this way in the first place and your Genius retort is to tell him to be a nice guy?
Do you realize that its girls that turn guys that way. Guys start off nice and respectful and constantly have to wonder why they are shot down (even though girls "claim" to want nice) but end up going for the "jerks"... who treat them badly.
in order to get some face-time (or a girl) guys turn into "jerks"... right around the time girls start realizing jerks aren't good for them...
Just like the person who farts in an air tight space, you shouldn't complain... women ARE the problem. And that is why there are guys like me... who see this and prevent it. Women are quick to play "victim" acting like its never their fault... guys like me... dont give them the opportunity.. so we are hated :) and i have to say... its pretty fucking great.

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler No. Women do not turn anyone any way. Everyone is responsible for their own behavior.

My response was grow up and see a therapist. OP doesn't need to work on becoming a Nice Guy since he already is one.

The key term here is "Personal Responsibility"

[Tdieseler]

What personal responsibility? explain that to me. You know what... dont even explain... i'll be sure to reference you and that phrase next time i hear another woman whine about being cheated on. Maybe she should take "personal responsibility" for the fact that she lacks the competence to keep her man interested in her only. Should fix everything then.
How the hell do you take personal responsibility for something someone else did/is doing?
astounded... Again.

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler LMFAO keep trying.

Why is OP's issue bothering you so much? Like usually your arguments at least make sense? And this is like you flailing all over the place.

[Tdieseler]

OP doesn't... your comment does. You want him to take responsibility for something he didn't even do nor have a say in... its just not fair... like i said... I used to be him... so i understand... and if you read my opinion, i even went at him and told him he ain't entirely right. What he says is true... what I told him is true... but what you are saying is kinda like being the person who farts in a tight space and goes "deal with it"... its unfair, ignorant, (mean in a way), and doesn't help.
you still haven't explained how he should take "personal responsibility" for getting rejected... I've been waiting for that... i really want to hear it. no joke.

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler I think maybe there's a gap in our communication so let's work on it.

OP is bummed that girls don't want to date him and that's okay! No one bats 100 XD

But it's not okay to say things like " Not any more. Sorry girls, if you reject me, you're a bitch and you just proved it to me and all my friends. What you think about yourself or me doesn't matter, because you're wrong." or "Any girl that rejects me or flirts with me and then doesn't want to date me, is not a friend of mine. It is an insult." or " I have worked on myself way too much with very little return on my investment."

No. People are not required to like you. It does make them lesser just because they won't go out with you. It's their loss anyway, right? And the fact that he thinks this way shows that all those times when girls weren't going out with him wasn't because he was too nice. It was because girls saw THAT side of him and it was nasty. No one wants to be around let alone go out with that.

TBC

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler So OP had two choices.

1) Accept rejection gracefully and move on possibly learning more about himself and the people he wants to be involved with.

2) Do what he's doing now and take all his negative feelings and foist them on someone else. "That girl doesn't like me so she's a bitch."

Like how do you deal with negative feelings in your life if you don't accept responsibility for them? How do you work through them and let them go if you can never admit that the problem isn't other people? How work on the problem if you never accept that it's your problem?

[Tdieseler]

Like i said... i did call him out on those aspects... and put in my little two cents on how to deal with it. I also did say that he probably didn't start out with that attitude... but eventually (like you said).. girls started seeing that in him and admittedly... it could be a turn off. No, no one is required to like him. I just want you to look at the history. Everyone always looks at the current, but almost no one looks at history. Even in the cheating situation too... most times its history.
I agree with your last comment... he did come off that way... i agree with you, now can you admit that he didn't magically start thinking that way or just decided and was pushed?

[Tdieseler]

Don't let me get started on that last line either... it won't end. :)

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler I'm not looking at the other comments on this take. I don't have the interest or energy for it. I'm basing our conversation purely on what is going on in this thread.

Everyone has to start out somewhere. We know that once upon a time OP stood at a crossroads. He could go one way and make a decision that would help him grow as a person or he could go the other way and shackle himself to negativity. Now we know what he chose.

I mean, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and talk about it. I'm not doing anything tonight.

[Tdieseler]

well... he chose the direction that he felt would give him what he was after.

[BellePepper]

@Tdieseler That doesn't make it right or okay.

[CancerianMan81]

but look you're attacking him for his own problem what gives you the right to do that when it wasn't you that he was talking about if you wasn't dating him it all about you why is it with you kind of women that whenever a guy talks about a girl that they have dated and the girl has dumped a guy is it always if it involves her it always has to involve all girls in general

[BellePepper]

@CancerianMan81 no one cares what you have to say. We've already determined you don't take responsibility for your problems or deal with them in any way shape or form and you cope by blaming women.

Move along.

[CancerianMan81]

that's where your wrong I do take responsibility for my problems thank you but I always seems that I'm wrong and you women are always right which is the opposite of that

[CancerianMan81]

but you kind of women never want to own up to you're own problems which shows me how weak you really are

[BellePepper]

@CancerianMan81 Funny all I hear is the same whinging every time you talk.

[CancerianMan81]

AND I HOPE ALL THAT GUILT YOU HAVE BUILT UP INSIDE OF YOU HITS YOU ALL AT ONCE!!!

[BellePepper]

@CancerianMan81 Seeing you freak out for no reason actually is p funny thanks for asking

[CancerianMan81]

WELL DON'T PUSH ME INTO A CORNER CAUSE I'LL COME OUT SWINGING

[BellePepper]

@CancerianMan81 *your

[CancerianMan81]

you know what's funny how hypocrites like you are always point out other peoples makes but you never find faults in you're own at least I can accept mine more than you and I don't have to HIDE behind mine

[BellePepper]

@CancerianMan81 *people's XD

[Cccgala]

"As far as I'm concerned I have worked on myself way too much with very little return on my investment."

This sentence is so saddening yet enlightening at how reality works. This sounds too businesslike to me. Investing is always risky especially if the odds aren't in your favor.

[anonman32]

i think the odds are rarely in a guys favor...

[ice_cat]

That is exactly right but very frustrating. Imagine how much MORE rejection hurts after you've "worked on yourself" so hard. It makes it even more insulting like you can NEVER be good enough. I would have preferred rejection where I hadn't worked so hard.

[Tdieseler]

@anonman32 meh... depends... but gimme a sec... im bout to school this "Player"...

[Dragonblood21]

"Not any more. Sorry girls, if you reject me, you're a bitch and you just proved it to me and all my friends. What you think about yourself or me doesn't matter, because you're wrong".

This is your problem right here, and likely the reason why you got into this situation to begin with. If they don't want to date you, it's because they don't want to date you. You aren't some godsend from the heavens above, in which every girl should be lucky to date you. You will get people who reject you because you just aren't what they want in a person. You need to fix your understanding of how attraction works.

[ice_cat]

I am so tired of getting notifications from this stupid take. I honestly don't even know why I wrote it.

Call it a professional troll, I don't know.

[Dragonblood21]

Lol, rip.

I think there is some truth in that, when you get a lot of rejection, or when you don't feel very "wanted" by any woman, that you feel anger from and that and in turn, you don't care about woman, or their feelings, or relationships, or any of that. Whether or not you were trolling, I think this is very real. If you were to sort of, break out of whatever it is that is doing this to you, I can see that person, who ever they are, becoming what girls would call a "player". I'd be a liar to say that if I didn't get my life back on track, and start attracting a good amount of women, that this idea wouldn't sound appealing, because it would. I don't believe everyone woman to have not liked me is a bitch, but it would be nice to experience the other side of things.

[ice_cat]

What I find very ironic is that the amount of hate in the opinions will easily overpower the amount of bitterness in my take. Honestly, "Dragon Blood" I've written less emotionally charged, logical (and in my opinion, better) takes before and people just don't comment on them or I'm assuming they read them and just think, "ah okay, well, not much I can say to that." But HERE, they have a perfect opportunity to attack a guy that is "pathetic" and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Like I'm actually that dumb... It doesn't really matter anyway, the take does have some truth in it, but had I written this take in an intelligent fashion without basically setting myself up for an influx of personal attacks that accomplish nothing, pretty much no one would have commented or had an opinion.

[Dragonblood21]

People like to attack things, especially on the internet. If you are going to attack someone, at least also say things that are true, and things that can help, not just insults upon insults.
It's interesting how things can grab others attention though. Sort of depressing though.

[Mayamoon02]

I've always seen "players" as unattractive with low frequencies.
You currently have an ugly personality to date - thats why you got rejected and find physical relationships easier.
Obviously its easier to be a player than take risks in love.

Its easy to attract someone for a night compared to having someone wanting you for years. So work on yourself instead of worrying about pussy.

Once you've established yourself as a man and with confidence women will see you as worthy to take that risk for love.

[Truthatanycost]

Yet simply watching what women do contradicts almost everything that you just said. I've lost count of the number of women making grand statements and then all a guy has to do is take a good look around...

[Mayamoon02]

@Truthatanycost

[Mayamoon02]

@Truthatanycost Im not sure what you mean!

[Philosopher_Edge]

I agree and disagree with you.

I'm divorced, and short. So getting rejected is pretty normal for me. And I reached where you are already, so I understand where you are coming from. And after I got divorced, I honestly would just fuck. If people asked me, I told them straight out, I don't date. I fuck. Even when women would ask, I told them the same thing.

And it's fine if you just want physical relationships, but understand that that won't last. Not because I don't think you are capable, but because you'll eventually find that 'don't date, just fuck' will become kind of empty.

So here's my advice: Enjoy the 'don't date, just fuck' way of life for a bit. And when you can't do it anymore (you'll see what I mean) it's okay to still abstain and just work on being you as a person and not care about women and dating. That's how the 'not looking' happens everyone talks about.

Just just be patient, be you and fuck everything else.

[Smmyskittles]

Honestly, it was a good read. Nothing new to me.

What I will say is that this is likely a phase. Might last until your late 20's/early 30's.

Just like women who say "I won't date another asshole!". What happens? A man puts in time and effort to pretend to be 'sweet' and she falls for it. NOT always, but a good percentage of the time.

- So, good luck. I mean this next part in a nice way; despite how it's going to sound.

I hope being a player teaches you a few things as well. It's not all sunshine and beetches.

[Rock_Steakface]

Don't worry about the bitterness, that wears off with time. After a while, you'll realize that pussy isn't all that great, anyway. It's a fun way to pass time, but it's not the greatest experience a man can have. Far from it, in fact. There's a whole lot of adventure out there in the world. Sail the seas, explore forgotten places, travel to new countries.

As they say, living well is the best revenge. Stack your money, use it to do the things you want to do and always remember the lessons you learned about female nature along the way - you can still get tied to a woman if you knock her up or if she even puts your name on a birth certificate without your knowledge. So be careful out there, keep improving yourself and enjoy life. You only get one, after all. As long as you can face the man in the mirror every day with a smile, you're doing well.

[BlackAfricanStallion]

Don't worry buddy I can relate 100% to your situation, I was at an edge of giving up and instead turning into a player but on the other hand think about the hearts you will be breaking, although you were hurt in the past you should learn to forgive and forget. I've found myself a really wonderful woman when I decided to take a break a wait for something worth it all. Life is a journey my friend and on this journey you'll get to meet a lot of women but you'll just have to find the one worth suffering for because in life everybody that claims to love you will hurt you at an certain point but what matters is whether it's all worth it after they ask for your forgiveness. What plays a huge role is also whether the woman you're seeing's actions totally speak the opposite of her words. Never give up on being the good person that you are because those that hurt you only regret in the end what they've let go of.

[Jager66]

You should go read/watch some fight club.

"We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need."

"Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction..."

"Hitting bottom isn't a weekend retreat. It's not a goddamn seminar. Stop trying to control everything and just let go! LET GO!"

"Fuck what you know. You need to forget about what you know, that's your problem. Forget about what you think you know about life, about friendship, and especially about you and me."

"There are a lot of things we don't want to know about the people we love."