Nice guys don't finish last

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

"Nice guy" is the most misinterpreted term in today's dating world. The most famous line of today's dating scene is: Nice guys finish last.

The worst thing is we are confusing a real nice guy with a fake nice guy.

A real nice guy: He is genuine, kind, helpful, caring, interesting, charming, loving, understanding, respecting, sweet, loyal, faithful and doesn't befriend you to only have sex. He is nice not because he wants to get into your pants, but because he has been brought up like that. They generally show his likeliness towards the girl from the beginning. If the girl doesn't show the signs of liking him, he doesn't chase her relentlessly but give her space by either limiting his friendship or cutting off to move on, but always wants the best for her. The biggest myth is a nice guy can't be a party lover or good looking. It's bullshit.

A fake nice guy: He PRETENDS to be all the things a real nice guy is, but always keep his feelings under wraps, hoping that the girl would notice his feelings and then they can have a happily ever after. They generally befriend a girl to date her or to get into pants, and on not getting their way, they claim the girl to be a slut or bitch. They relentlessly chase a girl despite her clear indication that he is just a friend to her. The thing that they don't realize is they can't truly imitate someone else. Being what you are matters. Since they are not being themselves, they come off as clingy, needy and not charming at all.

Now, it's also true that some girls go after jerks. It's just because when a woman is young, she is more into popularity, danger and stuff like that. But almost all the times, the relationship ends with a broken hearted girl. Only if the girl was sensible and wise, she wouldn't have fallen for a jerk. But as women grow up, their priorities change and they develop their self-esteem and hence want a guy who would treat them with real respect (not fake ones who want to get into her pants.) But seriously, real nice guys don't need to change themselves for girls who have not developed their mindset just yet. Those who say that they want a 'bad boy' just sound immature, and that's all. They go after them due to the way media portrays them, but once they enter into a relationship, they realize it was all bullshit.

All the women who are genuinely looking for a long term relationship or marriage would prefer some who can charm her and respect her and she can actually see her future with him.

So, to all the real nice guys: we, girls, want you. We want someone who is capable of spending cute nights with us instead of going out with friends and doing drugs. We want someone who would hold us and comfort us instead of ripping the clothes off at every given chance. We want someone who would be loyal to us and we do not someone who is just 'popular'. Seriously, you peeps are amazing, and you won't finish last! :)

[kheserthorpe]

Almost all fake nice guys are real nice guys. No actual jerk would fake being a nice guy for long since it doesn't 'work'.

The fake nice guys are actual nice guys who were always told that 'nice' is the main thing women want, that most guys are jerks and that women want a nice guy. But no women want them. So they figure they need to try -harder- They go from just genuine nice into doormat over the top inoffensive nice. They think they -have to- because apparently they're not nice enough. Not only that, but by the standards they have been raised by it IS true that pretty much only 'jerks' get the girl. Note that I think plenty of genuinely nice men get women. But boys are being brought up being told too much that being nice is what matters and also that plenty of direct mature and confident behavior is 'being a jerk'.

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

If a guy was genuinely a good guy, then he would not have gone around, calling a girl bitch just because she chose a jerk for herself. I mentioned it that a fake nice guy is relentless so they should definitely develop self respect and ego. Moreover, if we look at all the long term relationships and marriages, the guys are really nice, sweet and respectful but it does not mean that they are missing the confident, direct and mature attitude. All Girls don't want a bad boy. We just a real nice guy Who can be pretty cool as well.

[JohnnySS]

what is your or women definition of 'bitch'. bitch probably isn't the word stupid probably is the word or naive if a girl OR GUY chooses anyone who is a big mistake and the person admits it then guess what whats the problem if someone else says it they admited they were stupid. a bitch only if she was bitchy, stupid only if she was stupid. but shouldn't say that if u intend to get back with her thats not a kind thing to say since saying that isn't gentle, but quite rough.

honestly doesn't matter what someone else says about who u choose its ultimatly up 2 u

[Willy_Cee]

Very insightful, and well said.

[EpicDweeb]

I disagree. What you've described is a bitter man. A bitter man is not a nice man. A nice guy may become bitter, but only if his motives were poor ones to start or if he had poor taste in women. If a "nice" guy falls for a woman who doesn't reciprocate and simply believes he needs to try harder, he doesn't have an understanding of what's important in a relationship in the first place. What she described is a guy who wants what's best for the girl. It's impossible to be a truly nice guy if your relationship priorities aren't straight at the start. If you can't understand what's best for you, then you can't want what's best for her.

[CorBro89]

Yeah, that's not really true. Nice guys are sometimes viewed as creepy, clingy, or uncool. Most nice guys I know are kinda desperate, and everyone knows that's unattractive. Nice guys aren't usually very confident, and girls prefer confident guys because they don't need constant approval from their girlfriends.

[chriss]

not true everyone has different personalities

[mattl338]

That's completely wrong, I'm none of what you just said and I was raised to be nice and kind, so what you said was very bold and immature, and you are basing your claim off your own experience I assume, everyone has different personalities as chriss said. :|

[mattl338]

That's also pretty judgmental and closeminded of you.

[XRabbitHeartX]

I can type a lot about nice guys vs bad guys think but the thing I've realized most about it is that guys want to believe that a girl rejected them for being the "nice" guy but in reality she probably rejects you because she doesn't like you in that way! That's just the truth! People like what they like and sometimes you don't even know if the guy is a so called bad guy or not. Majority of times they come in dressed as the nice guy!

The other thing... oh so often catch guys out going for the bad girl as well who treats them like shit. It's such a double standard that only girls go for guys who are "players" or mean to them... just browse a bit on the site and see how many guys have put up with serious bitchy behavior from girls who obviously don't give them what they deserve but yet they cling onto them as well and want them! So really... before guys make it out to be only a female thing they should ask if they don't sometimes turn obsessed with a girl who doesn't like them back or who is the "bad girl" too. It goes both ways!

Lastly... there are nice guys who have the potential of doing lots of heartbreaking things too. I've seen it. In fact, all the guys who ever broke up my heart were "nice" guys because guess what? Even nice people can do bad things sometimes cause NO ONE is perfect especially not in romance. Every single person has flaws and makes errors. It's BS if people think "nice" guys never do anything wrong or don't have the potential to do shitty things. As I say.. I'm talking out of experience. I never dated a cliche bad boy before in my life. All of em were nice guys but just unfortunately did some things that hurt me and that's OK too because I understand that sometimes feelings change. people change and that's normal.

[medical2523]

So where are the nice girls that carry themselves respectfully and won't tolerate disrespect

[XRabbitHeartX]

There are plenty of them around :)

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

There are so many guys who are still thinking that 'being nice' is the root cause of not being able to date. They forget that emotional, physical and mental connection plays a big role in relationships. Most of us are quite young and immature when we start dating and really can't recognize much of the connection till we acquire a particular age. Then these go around saying that, "Oh well, she did not choose us first." If they are so nice, why don't thry try dating average looking girls who don't get any attention. She would surely not be used. Guys don't realize that almost all of us have been with some people before. Many of GAGers are still claiming that girls get tired and then they settle for nice guys. No, they don't settle. They learn to appreciate them more.

[Marinepilot]

Why settle for average looking girls? I can assure that looks matter to
most men. Yes, we are that shallow. However, women are that shallow
as well. That river flows both ways.

[TigerDK16]

The nice versus bad guys debate has been debunked many times on those Youtube social experiment. They always give numbers to men with swag lol.

[Nairamata]

I hate the term "nice guy" because it sets itself up for the whole "nice guy this" "not nice guy that" and "friendzone bullshit".

Everyone: be yourself and take no for an answer. Guys chasing girls, girls chasing guys, girls chasing girls, guys chasing guys, everyone chasing freaking anyone.

I dated (in order) a guy who seemed nice but was emotionally distant, we are friends now. A guy who seemed like a "nice guy". He was borderline abusive and cried all the time. And now I am with "The One." We started as friends and everyone around us knew there were sparks, but we just let things develop naturally and found that we had basically everything in common. We live together and are about to get engaged.

I was never looking for "the nice guy" I never wanted "the nice guy". I wanted the honest, strong, clever, funny, respectful guy.

I think we should do away with "nice guy" cause fuck nice; nice is boring. It doesn't mean I want an asshole or a jerk, but if the best thing you can say about a guy is that he is nice? Who cares?

I want the respectful guy. I want the guy who knows me so well, he knows when my body is saying no even if I am not. I want the guy who asks what's going on and is there to help when I need it. I want the guy who also knows how to drag me out of my shell and help me do things I am scared to do alone.

I want the honest guy. I want a guy to not play games and think that I need or deserve or want something based on some bullshit misconceived notion of whatever. I want the guy who will put up with my mild insecurities (and if he does so, they become less and less) and help me get over them. I want the guy who won't make me feel bad for feeling a little jealous every now and then.

I want the best friend guy. Someone I can talk to about anything and everything. I'm lucky. I got him.

Basically, be yourself, it's so much easier, and you come off as way more honest and will attract other honest people.

(guys/girls same difference)

[Wade888]

Can I ask what am I doing wrong?

I am 34 years old and have never been approached by any woman, and I have never had an honest woman make first contact on a dating site; they are always con artists.

I have had zero positive replies from women on dating sites in 15 years.
I am a 34 years old Christian Virgin man and was told on the last two American dating sites I was on to go hire a prostitute and get some experience in one case.

In another casee, because I have been perpetually unemployed for living in Louisiana, I was told by a woman, "No self respecting woman would ever date an unemployed man (you)."

That was in response to me asking for her "Female expertise" about what to do with my profile. My response to her was that if I made as much money as half the women on the site claimed to make, I'd tell a woman she could stay at home and never have to work again.

I have probably messaged thousands of women over the years and never, ever gotten a positive response.

I tried going to the female dating counselor's site and read what she wrote and I told her, "I already do all that and it never works."

Dating services I've tried:
Christian Mingle
Christian Singles
Plenty of fish
OkCupid
DateHookup
Match
Eharmony
Zoosk
speedate
many, many more.

You talk about nice guys can still party. I question whether you know what a nice guy is, because the guys women always go for do nothing but make dirty sex jokes about women behind their back all day long.

But seriously, what is a person supposed to do when Christian women don't date Christian men, and specifically put "no virgins" or "Sexually experienced men only" in their profile?

How did I get this way?

Rejected one day at a time. Gets really, really, really old.

I don't talk dirty to women unless they start it first, like heavy flirting or something, and I don't treat people badly. At this point I simply don't get it.

I'm 5'9", 185 lbs.

Thanks for any help, but I've probably heard it before.

[Wade888]

I have wanted to love a woman since I was 6 or 7 years old, but There is always something in the way: repression, rejection, unemployment, illness, whatever. Usually it was just rejection, rejection, more rejection, more rejection, more rejection 5 years later more rejection, 10 years later more rejection.

I've never even been on a first date, and God help me it cannot be all my fault. It just can't be.

Be nice to her? She doesn't want it.

Be yourself (I am nice anyway) She doesn't want it.

Talk about science or weather she doesn't want it.

Talk about sports she doesn't want it.

Talk about romance, she doesn't want.

Talk about sex, she doesn't want it.

Don't talk about sex, she doesn't want it.

Talk about goodness or morals, she doesn't want it.

Talk about something dumbass and irrelevant and totally not worth my time talking about, and that's what they'll go for: Drinking yourself to a stupor, drugs, or some other shit like that, hey, everybody's on board. Hurroah.

[Wade888]

"Don't talk about sex"

Really? On a dating site... to a woman tht I'm trying to date... so I can see if I might be interested in a relationship and etc, eventually marriage and sex. And no, lest I get accused of that, I'm not all about sex..

Hey, you know, ladies, in case you didn't notice, men have a penis, and it has a purpose.

I can masturbate on my own. I don't need to "date" you and get treated like a walking wallet and certainly not marry you, to be stuck with some cold asexual person all my life.

It's bad enough being alone andhaving to live my own life in a nation that does everything backwards. I don't need to live with an asexual woman and do nothing but increase my own problems and get nothing out of it.

I want to play with the woman. I want to pleasure her. If she doesn't want me to pleasure her sexually then GET OFF DATING SITES AND GO JOIN A MONASTERY AND QUIT WASTING GODLY MEN'S TIME WITH YOUR UNGODLY REJECTION OF GOD'S PLAN FOR MEN AND WOMEN.

[Wade888]

I am tired of allegedly "Good" or allegedly "Christian" women playing mind games with men, not just myself, but men in general, and then blaming them man for everything wrong.

Withhold sex forever, then guy cheats because he can't h elp it, then you blame him.

Reject the good guy and take a devil to bed the next day an hour after meeting him, and you call yourself a good woman or a Christian... you are evil.

I'm tired of women using veiled language and blaming men for not knowing what they want, whether it's single, or whether it's married. You are a BITCH and a BABY, a totally immature, both naturally and spiritually, worthless baby. If that's you, then you are not worth the time of the guy you are with until you CHANGE.

If you want me to do a chore for you, tell me in plain English , point blank, and I'll do it.

Don't come up with this "Yes," but mean "No," or "No" but means "Yes" bullshit.

[eltxamo]

Relax man, just try to do something to build you selfsteem, if the no-one wants to go out with you just think that it's because your wallet it's not fat enought or your house is not big enought... you have just not meet the right person yet, but do keep trying because if you are shy, girls are not going to go up and talk with you. That only happens when you already have a GF, they can smell it. lastly, there's always the Asians as plan b.

[Mpgchgo]

You have to have a job. Get a job and a car, then go back and try again. You are like the dude in the Monty Python sketch who is an accountant who wants to be a lion tamer because he owns a hat. Desire alone isn't enough; you have to be qualified if you want to be a lion tamer OR get a date. This business about not making as much as the women on the site claim to make is horseshit. Just go get a job. Shut up, stop whining and get a job.

[Anonymous]

So I'm not nice if I'm not charming enough. Girls have been overlooking me since highschool or forever. Thought I'm gay or something. It's my experience the vast majority of girls aren't interested in you unless you make gross sexual statements about them. Which I never do except to be ironic and stupid channeling Uncle Jimbo from South Park, and wouldn't you know it some dumb girl thinks I'm being SERIOUS with what I'm saying and is attracted to it.
I've yet to meet ONE girl who would take me for real and so much as kiss me. And met more than 10 who say shit like "you're a nice guy, a lot of girls really want someone like you". But no one really wants me. They all so far want the jerk who invites them to come over and make out then kicks them outta the house after they fucked. Or the ADHD drunk with no attachments or inhibitions. I've known both those guys well.

It's still a myth to me. Girls and people in general act nice or inviting to me and everything. But very few people want to do things with people outside their regular life. I don't force myself into other people's lives for selfish reasons. My jerks friends do all the time though. The most action I've had since high school is some girl I barely know invited me to an ecstasy orgy over the holidays, to which I politely declined.

The fake nice guys sound less like me, but still sound like people genuinely trying who just have their hopes crushed over and over. Not like they're all secretly nice. But some may just be misinterpreted and frustrated from past experience. The jerks, the guys who don't care, genuinely lie and say the most convenient thing while their actions say "I don't care". I feel sorry for some dude (or girl) who's actions follow through and tries to be "nice" only to be tossed aside when they have their own feelings that can be hurt or ignored. Not everyone has amazing communication skills but many still try. While some people have amazing charismatic communication but are total sociopathic takers who don't care about anything.

Anyway I've all but given up. If someone invokes my notice, like they stand out for whatever reason I'll turn that into a compliment, like might have come naturally before. Like if someone looks like they're trying to dress up for something or just whatever. The regular things. That doesn't really seem like flirting or show my interest as much.
Whether or not I'm a nice guy isn't something I could tell you for sure. But so far I'm finishing last.

[Bubblesi]

Allright. While I agree there are some dysfunctional self proclaimed "nice guys" who are really just insincere different kind of assholes, there are still genuinly nice guys and they tend to have hard time finding someone.

So I'll share something here to present my point. I am not gonna proclaim myself as a nice guy since that's a little bit cheesy. But I have been characterized as "kind, loyal, smart amd witty" by most of my close friends. Yet I have very time finding someone, both for casual sex or long term relationship. The thing is that most girls don't go for assholes as myth claims, but they go for that superficial flash and charisma that assholes often have. Most will reject guy just becouse he tends to be a little nervous or shy and rarely take a moment to find out what he's about.

"They generally show his likeliness towards the girl from the beginning. If the girl doesn't show the signs of liking him, he doesn't chase her relentlessly but give her space by either limiting his friendship or cutting off to move on" - That's jsut it. "Signs and crap". I have been accused of that few times. The thing is that most guys do not get frickinn signs. Like this girl I have been on one date with and liked texted me few times that she's swamped and doesn't have a time to meet me in 10 days so I believed her and texted her after that and it took few texts until she finally texted me that she's not interested in seeing me again. Why didn't just say that outright and instead insulted my intelligence and demenead herself with idiotic excuses? I can handle rejection, it's part of life. But what I can't handle is insincerity.

"But as women grow up, their priorities change and they develop their self-esteem and hence want a guy who would treat them with real respect"

That's downright insulting. Basically you are saying "While I am young I am going to injoy myself with attractive bad boys and when I am older I am gonna find myself some nice, reliable smuck...

[Bubblesi]

... I wouldn't give a time of a day to few years before." WTF? And what is that guy suppose to do until said girls wise up? Sit on his ass waiting. Like hell.

[Agrojag]

This was better than the take.

[Arthurred]

I feel you brotha

[palomajoa]

Is not about women trying to find a reliable guy after they grow. Is about truly getting to know her self, and then knowing how they wanted to be treated. Besides, many nice guys tend to scare women because of being clingy from the begining.
And nice guys also fall for mean girls. Hopefully at some point in life nice guys and nice girls will meet.

[cristiana]

Guys should be both good and bad ideally. Sexually it's good to be a bad guy, know how to tease and turn on, be confident in bed etc. But in the other areas of life it's good to deal with a good person that has character, treats you well, is not an asshole but is not a doormat either.

[SENSEI]

"So, to all the real nice guys: we, girls, want you": but ze nice guys do not want you anymore. Are we nice guys supposedly having to leave in solitude for 15 years until some broad start to "know" whats really good for her and starts noticing whats good about us?
keep enjoying your jerk guys , cause that is pretty much all you ever gonna get. we nice guys mooved on. And if we really need to get a girl i rather get a younger one who didn't rode the jerks cock caroussel. Im not Marrying either. I dont see the point of marrying a broad so i can have sex companionship and whatever else she can offer while she gave it all up before to some jerks before me free of charge/marriage contract. And many more ex nice guys like me will continue to be nice guys in everything else but for women. You have to stop to feed us lies cause we dont care or believe it anymore. Women want three things jerks and good looking guys , and once they get older and " get wiser" , they will pick some idiot like me that has the cash and the house. nice guys never got picked before for who they where and they won't be picked for who they are either now. Only jerks and good looking guys can really experience being "loved" by who they are. all the nice guys + not good looking guys will be loved for how much security= money status stuff they own. You can accuse me of beeing a fake nice guys if you want. i was once a real nice guy and now im neither one of them when it comes to relationships. tons of guy are and will become like me. they have seen the truth and saw through the lies. I just wished stuff like this would stop beeing published. Nice Guys DO finish last. and honestly if any nice guys has some self respect and self love left he will end up alone for the sake of his pride, and wallet.

[gtrain]

amen brother aMEN

[SENSEI]

Nice guys are the sexiest... sigh not even women will believe that. And by the time they could and might believe it its too late.

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

You are not nice if we you are separating niceness for women, men and other things. If you are truly good, you will treat everything with equality. Moreover, SOME women will become aware of the nice guys after being treated badly by jerks but SOME women would want a nice guy from the beginning. This article is for guys like you who cgange their nature as per situations :) If you have satisfaction, love and enlightment inside you, I don't think if you would give a shit if others approve of your real nature or not because you are content with yourself.

[circlebill]

SENSEI - What you say is very harsh! Unfortunately, IT IS TRUE! TRUE! TRUE!

[PlainOldAdam]

A hell of a lot of truth right here

[Cyberguy57]

I disagree with your descriptions. the "nice" guy (in your scenario) is the one with game. the one who knows how to manipulate emotions to get what he wants. the "fake" nice guy is the one with no game who thinks he can get into a relationship by being honest and straightforward, but also respectful. It doesn't work that way. He comes of as "clingy", because he's emotionally reliant and afraid of loss and rejection (this is the reason he's not forthright about his emotions or interests. he's been taught to over value relationships and dread rejection, and that his instinctual attractions are wrong to have and that he should be ashamed). this is due to lack of experience or being less physically or behaviorally attractive. The more casual and "charming" guy knows he doesn't need you, because he can always find someone else, So he doesn't have the inhibitions or the fears of the clingy guy, and without the fear of loss or rejection, has practiced his game until he's good at it. He's not naturally charming, he's practiced. He knows how to use emotional and behavioral manipulation to his advantage. The clingy guy hasn't had this opportunity, and has insecurity and worth issues (not just due to relationship scarcity. society in general values the deceptive and manipulative individual and writes off the more honest and naive, and therefore socially clumsy individual as a worthless sucker). neither guy is really nice or not nice, just differently experienced. one is more advantaged. one is seen as inferior (and usually a creep for having sexual desires, which is completely idiotic because any guy who wants to be in a serious relationship with you is going to expect that there will be sex at some point. intimacy is one of the most important aspects of any mature relationship, and even guys without any interest in that sort of relationship will still probably have some form of attraction due to gender instinct. behaving as if this is anything but natural is cruel)

[Cyberguy57]

In other words, nice guys (a guy who pursues a relationship with little experience and no other strategy than to be nice and hope for the best, is how I would define a self described "nice guy"), do, in fact, finish last.

[Cyberguy57]

The opposite of a nice guy is a player (someone with plenty of experience with relationships who uses behavioral manipulation techniques to get what he wants). A nice guy turned player (or who's attempted to, anyway), is commonly referred to as a pickup artist. The techniques employed by pickup artists have always been used by players, who learned early on that the best way to initiate a relationship with a woman, unless your wealthy or extremely attractive (or alternatively, having learned these techniques due to experience precisely because they're wealthy or attractive), is to employ some degree of behavioral manipulation. A natural bent towards deception and manipulation has proven to be extremely evolutionarily beneficial in our current hyper-competitive social and economic environment. We're evolving into a species of very adept liars...

[Yc2K15]

well said sir!

[rutger]

Only way that could have been said better would have been with some line breaks.

[Scrambled]

I don't like your post. I was number one and got nowhere with women. In fact most guys get taught to be genuinely nice (like number 1) but when they start not getting anywhere, they lose themselves and try change and lie and distort themselves and become number 2 because number 1 didn't work. Number 2 doesn't work either, so a nice guy grows to be a mess (like me). Nice guys fail in life, bottom line. Try this one, you said women like the more bad boys when they younger and its a phase? Well... those guys got experience with girls anyway so now you have a douche who knows how to attract women vs a nice guy who doesn't know women and can't attract them. Those guys had all the fun and grow into positivity while the nice guy got overlooked and got angry and bitter. Positivity attracts. Confidence attracts. Not "nice". And I think its utter bullshit that a guy must just accept that a woman will accept him when she is out that phase. Fuck that, my advice to young men is to be fun, whether that means fuck n discard, break hearts and be a douche (or not) and only at 30 or so settle. Then women have this other problem. Once a nice guy realizes his confidence and power, he may even cheat in marriages or long terms because he can and needs to reclaim that power he believed he never had... and guess what, he has every right to do so. That's why these super pick up artists are born in their 30's. Even Hugh Hefner dumped his girl at 28 and look what he did! Older women always ask what happened to the nice guys? The answer: Nice guys finally realized that nice guy doesn't work and rightfully changed.

[Creeper1o1]

@scrambled is right you know.

[Scrambled]

Thanks @creeper1o1 I hope you going out there and breaking hearts!! you young. Uncle Scrambled wants you to have bedded 200 women by my age ha ha. Going to do the "Uncle Scrambled needs You' poster now.

[Creeper1o1]

i don't see this as a game but yeah, definitely one of my favorite hobbies HAHAHAHA

[Scrambled]

To be honest... no lies, I find guys and girls that do see it as a game have more fun, and more success. its the people who see it as some big serious thing that struggle.

[Creeper1o1]

Nah man I got you... i understand your view on this subject, like is said before you are right about every single part of it.

[Bubblesi]

I am said to say you are mostly right. At this point I pretty much dedicated myself to consciously develop certain asshole streak (not becomeing one, just a streak like 10%) and more alpha and masculine personality in general. It dawned on me one day. Few times people bumped into me on the street which made me really angry. The other day I am waiting for a green light on the crossing and whole bunch of people being on the other side. Now I am listening some Stones form my phone and the music really pierces my brain and energizes me really making me feel good. And as green light comes up and I proceed to walk across the road even though it's cramped people made space for me! And I mean SPACE, like 0,5 meter on each side. And I am like "Wow, I am onto something here." I am I am not about to become unfeeling dick who sues and hurts people for the heck of it. That's jsut not me and it's despicable but I am definitely gonna work on becoming more rough, uncopromising and assertive.

[Creeper1o1]

@Bubblesi shut up with your non sense and trying to pretend you got this alpha male idea out of thin air when everybody here knows you probably got that shit from some YouTube pick up artist garbage video. scrambled had a good thing going here till you messed it up with your ridiculousness.

[Bubblesi]

I didn't the idea out of thin air, no. This personal experience nearly made me ralzie that there really might be something to it. I just for the record I find those pickup artist ridiculous and full of themselves. And I am not about to pretend enything. PRetending is toxic behaviour that achieves nothing. What I am about to do is to elt that side of me come through more. To actually become the person I want to be so it coems genuinly from inside. There's a huge difference.

[Scrambled]

Fellas, fellas, what you both need @creeper1o1 and @Bubblesi, is more Cowbell;) Brothers need to stand together. Bubblesi does have a point. Why some advice given by players looks douche and why some terms like "alpha male" seem overboard is because nice guys need SERIOUS intervention. Also its hard to describe certain things that needs to be done without being politically correct. So yes, in a nutshell, you have to develop some certain asshole traits and body language will reflect and show results (its a great example here). For example im reading a business persuasion book and this guy even asks you to take somebody's seat in a bus instead of giving it to the person. Seems douche but you need to have that feeling of non-fear and that you can control your world and not be controlled by it. You will also find if you stick to your guns, those women who like you will love you!

[tommi22]

Great observations complicatedgirl! I couldn't agree with you more. Following reading your commentary I read through a good number of reader responses. What I saw was a pretty good spectrum of what is out there in the dating world which is what I would put into two groups, although I realize that as human beings are much more complicated than this. The first group are the wounded and the cynical. Embittered guys who are resentful that being 'nice' is repellant to the girls they desire and so they become predators and narcissists which brings flocks of girls to their bed. This is followed by women who have a list of expectations for guys who are honest, faithful, etc. and exhort men to just 'be themselves.' The second group, which there are few members, more or less agree with your view, as do I, that this is more of a matter of development and maturity. I had the great opportunity to discuss this subject with my mom who is a physician and my aunt who is a therapist and a professor of clinical psychology. They agree with you! Some of their gems were: "The need to establish an attractive (or confident) identity paired with one's sexual needs is difficult in our society that puts so much value into physical beauty and wealth. The physically young or developmentally immature get snagged into this web for quite awhile... if not their entire lives. It makes it impossible for them to ever discover who they really are so that, as your readers suggest, 'be themselves.' Those who are lucky enough to get through this maze or contest of sexual need and personal validation... can see what enormous illusion (or bullshit) it all is! The more one is invested in developing one's intellect, physical grace, and abilities that engross as well as find satisfying (i. e., my mom's a classical pianist; my aunt's a 6th degree black belt) the less one invests their entire world and self-esteem on the approval of a man... or his bed." Same thing applies in reverse for men!

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

Of course, I agree. Each and every single human being is different. But basically, guys should understand that a girl doesn't like to get abused as they think so. Some girls who stick to those bad boys have their own reasons, maybe self esteem issues, popularity, immaturity, etc.

[Longjacketanx]

I see this shit a million times on this site. I've seen good girls go after guys who do drugs, use them for sex and three ways, and do other bad things, and they chose those guys over genuinely nice guys.
I've also seen bad girls who drink, smoke, and do a lot of stupid things without trying to better themselves choose nice guys. I've seen good girls with good guys, and bad girls with bad guys. I think this whole "nice guy" thing is just the observations of the biased average single male high school student. I think people are gonna like who they like based off their nature, nurture, and all that shit about pharamones in Men's Health magazines.
I used to be the "nice guy", recently some chick called me an asshole, sorta playfully.
I take it all with a grain of salt. my point is these posts are helpful in showing guys how not to feel so entitled to a relationship or a woman's love. But it's also annoying saying every girl likes nice guys, when just like men, they date both. I also think there are levels to how bad you are and I
Am Micheal Jackson Bad. Sham-on!

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

To be honest, most of the time a girl goes after a bad boy because she has some self esteem issues and they generally want to change someone to prove their worth. It can be either conscious or subconscious but no person with self worth would let someone disrespect them so often. Yes, there might be some bad guys who are loyal but I have yet to see one. And I was not talking on behalf of the entire female population but on the behalf of girls who think like me.

[Longjacketanx]

I know this girl (we'll call Tani) who smokes and drinks and doesn't try to better herself in any way. But she's care-free. In a lot of ways she disrespects her girlfriend (usually) behind her back and usually telling me how she doesn't like her. She has even broken up with her girlfriend twice (yes she broke up with her) in a lot of ways she is like the "bad boy" you describe to me only she's a girl. Her girlfriend on the other hand is successful (has a very we'll paying job and her own house) , smart (attending a university), and self-aware. Tell me why her girlfriend chose to be with her and still chooses to be with her? At most what her girlfriend has to offer is a secure relationship, home, and income. It's almost as if Tani is using her girlfriend, but her girlfriend still wants to be with her. With all her accomplishments, I can't figure out why her girlfriend would want to be with her, surely it can't be self-esteem issues otherwise that would of held her back from so much more

[OpenClose]

I can vouch for this. I've only gotten compliments for doing nice things or being respectful. It's generally been PUA books/sites that say I'm not "alpha enough", which generally translates to "aggressive enough".

Keep in mind, guys, you have control here. If it pisses you off that a girl likes aggressive guys, it is much more wise to simply not consider her as a worthy dating prospect, rather than actually becoming more aggressive. Think about this: Would you want to date a girl knowing those were her standards?

And being chill also goes a long way. I think that's part of the issue. If you are with someone to is really nervous, it makes you nervous too. Most of the time, this social anxiety eases up with exposure.

And then there are "cold approaches". I'm not sure what the actual statistics are, but relationships rarely start from seeing some girl at a bar and throwing some pickup line. A lot of times relationships form with people you've known for a while, or people you met when you weren't explicitly looking for a girlfriend.

I think if guys raise their standards towards personality traits and place less emphasis on appearance, it goes a long way towards not shortchanging themselves.

[thatcomplicatedgirl]

I totally agree with you. Many guys who are saying that they should become a bsd guy or they have become a bad guy or only bad guys get the girl are not really looking at this whole relationship and marriage thing practically. They don't understand that this will cause them more harm than good in long term. Moreover, for how long can they keep a girl while hiding or altering their personality? I am exhausted of reading some opinions here lol

[SENSEI]

I think if guys raise their standards towards personality traits and place less emphasis on appearance, it goes a long way towards not shortchanging themselves.
The day women will do like you say then guys will do it too. but if i were you i wouldn't wait standing on a rainy day for that. NOT gonna happen.

[OpenClose]

SENSEI,

Women's taste in appearance seems less well-defined and is less emphasized. Sure, it's certainly there, but if you're talking about superficial traits, women's superficial preferences are geared more towards things like wealth, fame, or "badassery". That is, you don't hear guys complaining that "women aren't earning enough income for the family" or defending him from physical harm. I hear a lot about a decline in "real, working-class men" being replaced with "boring, white-collar men" and there's nothing hotter than a man volunteering to shoot or get shot in our pointless wars overseas.

The thing is, if we change ourselves to fit the superficial desires, we essentially reward this behavior. And a lot of times, the perspective men hold is that it is their job to conform to desires, and that if we don't, we must not be "real men". Men need to overcome this by not being afraid to be single, and not trying to date every woman that comes into their lives.

[petermuledonkey]

I think one important distinction to make here is the point made about "keeping your feelings under wraps and hoping she notices" as being part of the "Bad 'Nice Guy' Profile." That's bullshit. There are a ton of reasons a guy might keep his feelings under wraps that have nothing to do with trying to deceive a girl or get into her pants. I kept my feelings secret because I'd been hurt by rejection before and I didn't want to risk the friendship I was thoroughly enjoying on the gamble that she might feel the same way I did. I lacked self-confidence. I'm an introvert. I worried that if I told her I was in love with her, I'd freak her out with how deeply in love with her I was, or I would make her feel awkward around me and lose our friendship.

In the end, it was the wrong decision, and I would advise any other guy not to keep those feelings bottled up. I would give anything to go back and tell her exactly how I felt about her, as soon as I realized I'd fallen in love with her. Our friendship would have survived it even if she still wasn't attracted to me (it did survive, we're still friends), because we genuinely cared about each other and enjoyed each others' company. But I believe that my lack of self-confidence was unattractive to her, and that by waiting too long I missed my window of opportunity.

"Fake" Nice Guys are divided from real ones in one major regard: they think that the girl *owes* them romantic and/or sexual attention. They think that they deserve to be their boyfriend because they demonstrate kindness and thoughtfulness toward them. And when they don't get it, they show their true colors. Real nice guys are nice because they know you should treat people with respect and kindness, like the article said.

In the end, don't worry about the girls who want to be with bad boys. Be yourself, and don't pretend to be someone you're not.

[justwannatalk]

You hit the nail on the head. You fuckin said it all man. Perfect.

[Avatarconner]

Back in middle school, I had a crush on this girl. But I was too shy to say anything to her. But I sad hi to her when I say her and just kept watching her all through the school year.

I had summer gym and by some miracle she was in it too. But about halfway through it she walked up to me and said, 'look I don't like being stalked, can you stop?' she said. Even with my heart shattering I nodded and apologized. Then two friends of hers walked up to me and said that she was joking and told me to hug her.

I wanted to punch them since I knew they were just lying to me and trying to make me look dumb, but I walked away. When I got home that day, I locked myself in my room and cried. And to this day I don't even think of even attempting to try and start a relationship with a girl.

I never told my parents about this but I let it slip out around my brother one time. He was surprisingly Symantec to me about it but I think he's forgotten about it.

I want to have a relationship with someone, I really do. But my confidence was destroyed that day, I'm told I'm a nice guy by everyone but it still never helped me get any of it back.

[eltxamo]

No, man, that's call being too nice. Forget that bich, and don't worry because when you are older you will have a nice younger gf and she will be an old divorced lady that nobody wants.

[PiuBelloAmante]

I think the term "nice guy" has a negative connotation
i like saying i am a kind man =), or a gentleman lover ;)

This is a great take =)
but i have one problem, that these articles always mention... The nice guys finish last because they pick up the girl at the end, after she is emotionally unstable, highly insecure, and on the decline of physical attractiveness. The jerks get first dibbs, and she gets used, the nice guys get the leftovers.

You yourself said it " But as women grow up, their priorities change and they develop their self-esteem and hence want a guy who would treat them with real respect (not fake ones who want to get into her pants.) But seriously, real nice guys don't need to change themselves for girls who have not developed their mindset just yet. Those who say that they want a 'bad boy' just sound immature, and that's all. They go after them due to the way media portrays them, but once they enter into a relationship, they realize it was all bullshit."

You are right there is nothing wrong about being a real nice guy, but there is something wrong with the girls in this society who chase after the jerks, nice guys shouldn't have to change, dumb girls should... and before they are too old a womans physical attractiveness usually peaks at around 21 years of age...

so isn't this limiting a womans opportunity to find nice men early on?

just a thought

[SENSEI]

very well said dude. we guys have to have some self respect and some pride... if you can't get first dibs then dont take the leftovers home. an old saying says " dont make a whore into an housewife".
Remember the nice guys aren't atractive to them. I was a honest nice guy who wanted to only have sex after marrying the women of his life, the ONE. but its a long time ago. if you follow that path your as good as dead. infortunately the only way to go is to be a jerk. Go for the ones that interest you and tell all others to go take a hyke pronto. Have fun with them for a while then go for the next , keep your freedom and be carefull with your sperm. dont let yourself get marriage trapped. good luck dude

[PiuBelloAmante]

Thank you Sensei

[Radman]

From a man's perspective ~ True nice guys are rare on the single scene because they are a valued partner. However, after awhile the nice guy's giving personality is often seen as a weakness by self centered women.

My ex-fiancé always thought that I owed her for whatever the reason. The more I did for her the less she did for herself. I essentially enabled her to live a life of zero accountability.

The breaking point came when she viewed all men the same & left me for an unemployed high school drop out because he was available to spend time with her whilst I was working overtime to pay for her wants. After a few months she was begging me to take her back. I wish her all the best in life... Just as long as I am not in her life.

While those perusing my commentary may think this is just one person they could not be more wrong than to leap to this conclusion. I have seen it first hand where nice guys are taken advantage of by women over & over again. In a relationship one person gives & the other takes. Emotional balance just isn't achieved & the giver ends up becoming hurt by the taker. The taker develops a since of entitlement & neither individual are in a healthy relationship.

Nice guys do finish last because the not so nice take advantage of them because their caring & selflessness are seen as a weakness to be exploited.

[EpicDweeb]

I like to differentiate by using the terms "nice guys" vs. "good guy." I think people use the term "nice guy" to specifically refer to the fake guys, or to refer to themselves by their actions whilst ignoring their own motives.

I think the difference is rooted in love vs. desire. Love is an action and a desire to do what's best for someone. Love means caring about someone, not simply desiring someone. You can love a person without desiring them and you can desire them without loving them.

A "nice guy" is one who desires to be with a girl and is doing what he thinks will best get him to that point as he cannot fathom the attractiveness of the "badboy" type to women.

A "good guy" is one who loves people. He treats a woman well because he respects her rather than assuming he has respected her BY treating her well. A good guy is someone who loves the girl regardless of her love or desire for him and who is willing to forego any desire he has for her for the sake of her happiness.

I think a good example of the difference between a good guy and a nice guy would be their response to the girl they like getting in a relationship with a bad boyfriend. (And I mean like a genuinely bad relationship).

A nice guy recognizes that it's a bad relationship and hopes tells her that she should leave it or acts especially nice in hopes that she will agree that the nice guy is a better option and fall for him instead.

A good guy recognizes that it's a bad relationship and warns her that it won't end well in hopes of saving her heartache and in order to keep her safe. In this situation, while he may hope perhaps she'll consider him as an alternative, he'll be happy if she is safe regardless of what she does if/when the relationship ends.

[Loverboy13]

In my experience, the difference is age. teenage girls and even women in their 20's want to be with a popular guy. A guy who is biologically desirable. ie in high school, plays sports and is "hot" nice hair, dresses well, and is popular. When they get older they want the guy who is the dangerous type, who is muscular and slick and drives a cool car, etc. But here's a hint for all of you girls out there. These guys are assholes. A guy that feels the need to drive a sports car, and has an inflated ego, works out all the time to build his muscles. These kinds of guys are 1. not going to treat you like a real person, they see you as another status symbol "the hot girl they got" 2. I can guarantee these guys are terrible in bed. because they don't have any real feelings for you and aren't concerned with your pleasure. "If" you happen to orgasm when your with them it won't be because they were trying to please you. these guys are compensating for coming up short down there.
Now I can't say that all nice guys will end up being well endowed but they will definitely put the effort into pleasing you, orally, etc. trust me the guy that compliments you and is "sweet" is really someone you should be with. You'll have a much better relationship with him. And who knows you might get lucky and he'll be well endowed too :)

[NotTheRegularNiceGuy]

I am an introverted guy who suffered bullying at school for a very long time. Got chronic depression and I have 5 types of anxiety disorder. I also have anger issues, specially when it comes to my relationship with my dad. I have felt rejected my whole life and I must say I dont take rejection well. It feels like going through everything I've been trying to overcome for years again. It all comes back to me in a second. I am really dilligent. I try to help because I think that helping others is the day to day sign that people care about something or someone. Gathering this with my abandonment issue I come out needy and clingy to most women. Of course, thats not attractive at all. But according to you Im supposed to be a dickhead because Im clingy and I dont take rejection very well? Like Im some schemer? I've had enough of bullies making up stuff about me on school. I dont need norwant to call anyone a bitch. You obviously have some background but what you're doing here is label people you dont know.

[RalphBlack]

I agree with you a lot on this.
Although, I do have girls that are friends that I did want to have sex with and so did they with me but they have boyfriends and also we didn't want to destroy the relationship.
As long as both of you are 100% ok with the situation then that's 100% OK! :)
The Friend Zone is ok as long as you both talk it through and respectful of each others feelings.
In my book, its called "Safe Zone"
Also the safe zone, he is (like you said) "The genuine nice guy. He isn't trying to act like the girls or the gay male girlfriend.
He is just accepting the platonic instead of the romantic.
And if the guy is successful with tons of other women who want him then it doesn't matter whether or not the guy is agreed in the "Friend Zone" which is actually , "Safe Zone"
"Safe Zone' Guys give that woman space and don't breathe down their neck getting into their personal business 24/7.
Just a genuine good guy who can stand up for himself when somebody crosses the line and is nice when he needs to be nice.

[Anonymous]

That's funny that this is even coming from a girl. As a guy, let me tell you something that I've learned. Nice guys, DO finish last. I hate to even say it myself because for so long I wanted to prove that phrase wrong. I USED to fit the description of a nice guy, now I don't even care anymore. I had many friends that were girls who would always come to me if their boyfriends were mistreating them, and I was ALWAYS there to help, only to see them spit on my face to go out with another douche bag. There's a reason why I'm still a virgin, not because I'm TOO nice, but because NO girls ever want the nice guy, they ALWAYS go for the bad boys. Nice guys are stepped on left and right, and girls are always complaining why they can never find a nice genuine guy. I've not only seen this with my own eyes, I've LIVED IT. If I ever had a girlfriend, she'd be my everything. I'd treat her like a queen (not so much that's it's obsessively weird) but I'd treat her like a lady, because that's how she deserves to be treated. I wouldn't (I don't even do it now) demand for sex and our relationship would be an open sort of friendship. We'd go crazy together, laugh, share memories, you get the point. Now, it doesn't even seem like girls want that. Here's what I see. The girl goes out with this tool, gets hurt, and then the nice guy steps in. The girl does acknowledge the nice guy, I'll give her that, but ONLY if it benefits her, meaning if he isn't any help for her getting another boyfriend, he's basically useless. Then the girl goes out with another tool, thinking she can change him, only to get hurt again. And then the WHOLE cycle starts all over again. Well you know what? I'm sick and tired of being treated like shit. In my eyes, the more AGGRESIVE men seem to get what they want. Is that what I have to become to get a girl? I can go on and on about this, but truth is, NICE GUYS FINISH LAST, and guess what, it's NOT OUR FAULT. Open your eyes girls and start treating the REAL men right.

[FadingPhoenix]

They always go out with the bad boys? You phrase everything around this good/bad boy logic. "Real men"? Any guy that doesn't fit your description isn't a "real guy"? You say girls don't came to you for advice yet continued on to other "tools". Did you ever actively pursue those girls? Too me, it sounds like your the sort of guy who expects something in return for being nice. Niceness in guy is like seatbelts in a car. Is being nice supposed the most interesting thing about you? please don't lump every guy who happens to be nice in this category of yours.

[eltxamo]

But, but, but, the girls love the emotional rollercoaster! that's why you should be just yourself, not nice even if they stab your heart...

[Opinion Owner]

I expect NOTHING in return, that's why I did it in the first place. But then again, that's also why I'm still a virgin and why I get stepped on left and right. I'm not making any claims, I just think it's funny that a girl even has the audacity to ask such a question. There ARE real mean out there, and it sickens me to see them get used. Ever see the movie hitch? Take Kevin James character for example. I know it's a fake movie but I've lived this sort of stuff myself and I'm sick and tired of women claiming "all men are pigs" or "why is every guy a douche bag". I ask for nothing I'm return, that's my problem. I don't pursue these women, I just find it funny that they are the ones saying how there aren't any REAL men out there. Pisses me off to no end.