Is marriage a losing proposition for men?

[msc545]

I think marriage is a financial and emotional trap for men that should be avoided, but I have a very bad history with it. What do you think?

Marriage is a bad idea for men.

Marriage is a good idea for men.

[DextroShade]

I support the institution of marriage but man-hating feminists broke it with horrible misandrist laws and policies. Here's how I would fix it:

• End no-fault divorce
• End lifetime alimony
• Put caps on alimony
• Mandatory paternity tests at birth
• 50/50 custody is the default
• If a woman cheats she gets nothing: no alimony, no division of assets, no custody, no child support, NOTHING
• All accusations of abuse made during divorce court proceedings MUST be supported by evidence such as video, police reports, or medical records; making an allegations of abuse in court without evidence is an automatic perjury or contempt of court charge

[MrOracle]

Beyond ending no-fault divorce, divorce should be limited to provable instances of abuse, infidelity, severe addiction, or financial abandonment. None of this "we grew apart" or "unreconcilable differences" - those should NOT be grounds for divorce. This would force people to take marriage and partner selection much more seriously (which would avoid most divorce in the first place), and put a high penalty on those who make a poor effort in partner selection or don't take marriage seriously.

I think MARRIAGE is valuable and important for nearly everyone, but I think modern marriage laws have completely corrupted marriage, and have been changed such that men are blamed by default for any problems in the marriage regardless of what those problems are, and as long as the laws remain as they are, men are foolish to marry.

Under revised marriage laws, I'd be right there for it.

[slatyb]

@MrOracle then nobody with any sense would get married.

[DextroShade]

@MrOracle under what I am suggesting a woman could leave a marriage for bullshit reasons but she would get NOTHING, not even supervised visitation with the kids.

[MrOracle]

@slatyb No MAN with any sense would get married today. Marriage is essentially a contract with the government in which the woman is financially motivated to leave and which the man is held accountable for ALL problems, real or perceived, for the marriage. The man also has extremely limited rights to children by default in family court, and can be forced to pay for HER attorney that is helping keep his children away from him.

The only reason marriages continue is that most men are blissfully unaware of how divorce and family courts work, and what the laws are, and are told it's just a beautiful ceremony full of love. The vast majority will only learn the truth after it's way too late.

Marriage SHOULD be a great thing - valuable to everyone involved: the man, the woman, the children, and society. But that's not what it is now, and that's due to Feminists stacking the laws at all levels heavily in favor of women.

[msc545]

That is a very good list, and I thank you for posting it. I would modify it by saying "end alimony forever. If women can't support themselves, that's their problem, not mine."

[Anonymous]

Men should avoid marriage because when she cheats on you or she leaves you she will take half your stuff to the next guy

[PeachyPie93]

It could be good or bad depending on what dumb fuck you decide to marry. If you marry a cunt she will take half your shit. If you marry someone kind and actually loves you it could be completely lovely. Apparently most men marry dumb cunts, so its probably best not to do it lol.

[Agape93]

It's a bad idea in general

[slatyb]

Marriage is a legal state than can be advantageous or disadvantageous for couples. The complaints we hear are from men who were the sole wage earner. They incorrectly believe that the money they earn is 100% theirs, but in many of the United States and presumably in other countries their earnings are a marital asset. If that's how a man feels, he definitely should not get married and hire professionals to meet his needs.

[msc545]

No, the complaints you hear are from men who have their money, their property, their children, their reputations and their lives taken from them in divorces. It's a little worse than just somebody who doesn't understand about community property. You should know this.

[slatyb]

Their money? Property they had prior to the marriage is not a joint asset. Their reputations? Their lives? Their children? In my experience joint custody is the norm.

[msc545]

Well, you must probably live on a different planet than I do because in my experience, women getting custody and men getting bills is the norm.

[OfMiceandMen]

I think marriage is a bad idea for men who think marriage is a bad idea. LOL

If you're constantly wondering whether she's gonna screw you over and have trust issues, then marriage is not a good idea. The glass is already half empty out of the gate.

[msc545]

Thinking it's a bad idea doesn't create the problem. Getting married creates the problem.

[OfMiceandMen]

No thinking it is a bad idea doesn't create the problem, but a person who is not open to marriage should never get married because there hearts not in it. Marriage is a leap of faith, your mind and your heart has to be in it or it'll never work. If you already think it is a bad idea, then that'll carry over into the marriage and it would be doomed from the start.

[msc545]

People who are not open to marriage don't get married. Keep your leap of faith, get married, and then let's talk after you get fucked in the divorce.

[OfMiceandMen]

I don't think I would get fucked in the divorce because everything I own is mine and she would not be entitled to it. Anything we bought together or invested in together would be, but we both contributed to it, so I don't look at that and say I am getting fucked if she takes half. She deserves half is she contributed to it and I likely got the benefit of it, so no harm no foul.

[msc545]

No. Everything you buy with the money that you earn during marriage is hers in the divorce. You are ok with this now because you think it will never happen, but it will.

[msc545]

Denial is not your friend and in fact will be your undoing. If you are not careful. Think very carefully about how much you are willing to lose both financially and emotionally.

[Anonymous]

Men are increasingly avoiding marriage, for obvious reasons.

To the user who said that married men are wealthier (@Apple1996), it seems you don't understand cause and effect. It's not that men are wealthy because they're married; men get married because they are wealthy. Think about it.

[Apple1996]

They acutally gain wealth throughout their years of being married. Many don't start out wealthy

[Opinion Owner]

@Apple1996 You're conflating wealth and earnings. They are not the same thing. Most married men have to earn more than single men because they have to support a family and not just themselves. The family consuming his resources means less resources for him personally. Getting married does not make a man more wealthy, it just makes him have to work harder and get to keep less of what he earns. But the more significant factor is that men who have higher earnings, or the qualities to be a high earner, and far more likely to attract and woman who wants to marry them.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../

[Apple1996]

Less for him personally 😂 how greedy and disgusting can men be. Having kids and a wife doesn't mean a man has to be rich to afford them

[Opinion Owner]

@Apple1996 "Married men are much more wealthy than single men"

Those ^ were your words, not mine. How is a man "much more wealthy" if he doesn't have more money? Lmao

Think about it. A single man who earns $100k versus a married many who earns $150k but has to support his wife and three children. Do think that married man can afford to drive the same car, take the same vacations and invenst the same for his retirement as the single guy? Of course not.

I didn't say a man has to be rich to support a wife and children, but he definitely has to earn more than if he were only supporting himself.

Come on now, have a little honesty.

[Apple1996]

Most single guys drive shit cars, don't take nice vacations or plan well for retirement. That's just from what I've seen irl and online. Married guys have all those things because they have a spouse that drives them to do well with their job and be responsible with their money. Single guys are out here blowing their money on drugs and prostitutes 😆

[msc545]

@Apple1996 anecdotes are not a synonym of data. Your personal experiences are not representative of the actual conditions in the population.

[Apple1996]

I'm not so sure if there is data on single vs married men and their car status 😂 if you find it feel free to share

[msc545]

This is actually a really good example of mistaking causation and correlation. Only uneducated people still do this.

[msc545]

@Apple1996 it can be just as greedy and disgusting as you are. Women want it all, and the difference is they don't want to work for it. Most women feel entitled to be cared for and even say they want to be cared for by a man explicitly. They are like children and not very attractive children at that.

[exitseven]

I think it matters who it is that you decide to spend the rest of your life with. It is a big decision and if you go into it with the attitude of if it is not good I can always get a divorce, you will fail.

[msc545]

70% of the time you are likely to fail anyway. It doesn't matter who you marry.

[Anonymous]

No. Most women today are losing propositions for men. The actual institution of marriage is not, so long as he chooses the right woman. But the odds of that today is very slim.

[msc545]

There is no reasonable way to determine who the right woman might be, and there is no reasonable definition of the right woman. It's a loss and a big risk, and not worth it.

[Opinion Owner]

In general, yes. I wish more women would read and understand this. But most just choose to get pissed off about it. Just like women get angry about men thinking they can bully their way into getting what they want. Women need to understand they can't bully or shame men into being exactly what they want.
I always like to say I'm sort of cursed. I have 4 sisters who are all strong, and good women. They've all gotten married and stayed married and they all support and build their husband's up rather than tear them down. So I KNOW how a good woman conducts herself. And so I know how very few good women they are. And I'm not saying all these women do not have the potential or power to be good women. They're just not right now. But they do need to understand that a relationship is a PARTNERSHIP. I do think too many of them have a princess complex. And until they grow up and grow out of that they will continue to have problems.

[msc545]

Too many of them see marriage as a way to get supported and make money for themselves.

[lightbulb27]

It is an institution. Pick someone you can thrive with in that institution.

the man gives the woman his heart (love)... so that she has priority. from that, she has security to make offspring. She in turn gives respect to the man (honor). That's their roles. They are not perfect people, but they work to make life better for the other.

Bible had that covered long time ago... nothing has changed.

I've seen women lose and men lose... men win and women win.

[msc545]

On my planet - men lose.

[lightbulb27]

you're a fascinating case study... a well educated therapist/psychologist... that married an apparent narcissist and was buldozed in the breakup. Ever think about it in terms of how, why?
Time to take a "space ship" out of there, but put the junk behind...

Life isn't over... long long long ways to go and can't turn the hormones off...
Find a good traditional values Asian girl... usually no religion, but raised with quality standards... done!

[msc545]

I know what I did this, thanks. It won't happen again.

[slatyb]

The man gives... If that's how you view a marriage, them you definitely should not get married.

[msc545]

@slatyb been there, done that, never again.

[msc545]

Death and taxes are institutions too. It doesn't mean anybody has to like them or agree to them.

[lightbulb27]

@slatyb you have free will. I'm married and it's working well, because it's two decent people. But we had it out for a while and I can see how it could go badly. I described the relationship of submission and the goal of each.
@msc454 - you haven't been bitten by a great white apparently yet you still surf. If you did, youd probably go surf again if able. You were bitten by a human woman and vow not to touch another... in objection to your design. Those relationships dig to the core, they hurt more. You need a therapist, discord everything you know and start over.
But yes... it can go really bad with humans. Choose wisely and think before acting. Even doing that, can get one into huge troubles.
We live and learn and grow... that's life. Or we get hurt so bad, we never go back. Fear... is powerful.

[msc545]

The thing about a Great White shark is that it's rational. It's just an animal searching for food. And I'm not planning to be its food. So I don't do things like paddling out too far or for too long, and I avoid things that will create problems for me with Great Whites. Also, where I surf, they don't come in very close to shore anyway. In other words, I have some reasonable control over my situation, and I assume the risks I assume with full knowledge of what can happen at least in regard to surfing. The pleasure and arguably the health that I derive from this activity is well worth the risk.

Women are a completely different story. In my state, at least, and I think in most states, the divorce court is a court of equity, not a court of law. Equity means that whatever the judge thinks is fair is what you get. In most cases, this turns out to be whatever the woman wants is what the judge thinks is fair. Women are at their base greedy as hell and they don't want to work and they don't want to be put out and they want luxuries and they want you to pay for them. The court will make sure you pay for them because if you don't, you're going to go to jail. If you don't have the income or the cash, they'll just take your property. Give the house to her and also give her the children. Not because she wants the children necessarily, or even because the court thinks it's a good idea, but because that person that has the most custody of children gets the most money from the other person. Except, of course, if the other person is a woman. In which case, women are rarely if ever assessed child support. And if they are assessed child support and they don't pay it, nothing happens to them at all. Technically, there are consequences, but in reality, there are none.
I was in such a shitty situation once and I wound up losing my daughter as a result. I have not seen her since she was four years old as a result of a really shitty judge in a really shitty court decision.

[msc545]

It cost me a ton of money, and I barely kept out of jail. It continues to cost me a lot of money.
I have to tell you there is nothing on earth that would ever persuade me to get married to a woman again for any reason or no reason. The system is so stacked against men that it is simply absolutely not worth the risk. I can pay for sex or I can date and that's enough. Even dating has its risks, so paying for sex is really a good solution for me.

[lightbulb27]

I understand that, I'm in a lib state and I don't trust the system in general. What I hear is it's more related to the roles. not being able to see your child is wrong. step child, another matter. Ever question... why did you pick that one and why she pick you? That's where the answers lie. They aren't all like that.
I cannot say I've heard it be that bad for guys. I've seen cases where the woman is nuts and she doesn't have the kids... she's an alcohol addict. but she did give him hell and make him suffer.
I've seen a case where the woman had 5 kids and lost them all. another addict, and she imploded and committed suicide thereafter.

[msc545]

Lose kids, but not very often, and certainly not often enough to make a difference. Saying they are all like that is like saying, "Well, all the chambers aren'tall loaded when you're playing Russian Roulette." It's true they're not all loaded. Would you still play Russian Roulette? Apparently with women you would.

[lightbulb27]

Great whites are probably not as emotional as women, but no expert. Those right dominant brains with varying hormones plus emotional wounds are tricky to navigate.
But you hormonally can't stop playing with their chambers... that's nature. you have to deal with the problem, it will deal with you. If you make good decisions, better off.
I don't think you ever looked inwards for the problem and blame the system and women. Plenty to blame, but do you go for quality women? Doubt it... your internal compass sends you into trouble. You are more educated than anyone, but blind to so much and it leaves you trapped. thats how it works, difficult to get out of.
You are playing russian rulette with sick women, probably in nevada. thats exactly what the adversary (to humanity) wants... screwed and separated people. Id place odds it all roots out of childhood mis-programmig/wounds, which lead you down a path of bad choices which contributed to divorce. you are not innocent bystander. The sick helping the sick, via meds... ugh!
I've seen plenty of women get the short end of the stick if not even, but thats in another state. Perception is reality, yours is limited. I don't know liberal states and can see they might be bad, because the liberal judges think weird.
Only the all mighty can save you (emotionally/spiritually), you can't. But, you are locked by your beliefs.
Solving this... would open you up to ways to do your job better maybe more effective, but might put you at odds with the system as well.

[lightbulb27]

What concerns me is not the state you are in... lost in hell... it is knowing what it takes to get you out. The Bible talks about this, you read about how the shepperd will leave the 99 sheep he's got to get the lost one?
You've got long ways to go, 30 something... just getting started. Lots of challenging "discovery" ahead, guaranteed, want it or not. Few can navigate the "mind" field of life. It's just how "it" works unless you lock yourself in a padded cell. Suffering, with courage to persevere, salvation, is the only way out of the depths. Been there, done that.

[msc545]

Celibacy now seems to be working. It's uncomfortable but it isn't as crazy as it was before.

[RedInnocent69]

If you maximize the sex, it’s cheaper than hookers.

[msc545]

Not if you get divorced it isn't.

[RedInnocent69]

Fair. I’m beyond the lovey-dovey stage. Straight to prenup with me.

[msc545]

No, it is not cheaper than hookers. It's actually a lot more expensive, depending on how often you use the hookers and depending on how often your wife lets you fuck her. It's also not less expensive to be married in the long run since the marriage will ultimately cost you a fortune when the divorce comes. And the divorce will come.

[msc545]

The prenup will not help you. Judges can and will invalidate a prenup whenever they feel like it. And they frequently do this for women if they think the prenup doesn't favor the woman. They often feel this way.

[DrPepper12]

The social sciences say it's a net positive for men so I won't argue with science.

[msc545]

Financially and in terms of child custody it is a net LOSS for men.

[Apple1996]

Married men are much more wealthy than single men. Also married men have a better chance of seeing their kids/gaining custody in a divorce

[msc545]

@Apple1996 Much more wealthy because they have to be, and only until they get divorced. Much better chance of having to PAY to see their kids.

[DrPepper12]

Yes. In a divorce men generally get hosed but for those that go the distance it's good

[Apple1996]

@DrPepper12 a lot has to do with who the breadwinner is. Some women have to pay up in divorces too

[msc545]

A woman having to pay alimony to a man or child support to a man is the real serious outlier in this case. It's not unheard of but it is extremely uncommon. For the most part. Men wind up losers and divorces.

[Apple1996]

It's not that uncommon now a days. A few years ago it wasn't common but a lot of women work and earn more than there husbands. Also your question is just about marriage not divorce so you are talking about 2 different things

[msc545]

@Apple1996 70% of marriages end in divorce. if you have evidence that a "lot of women work and earn more than their husbands" then provide it. Women initiate divorce about 90% of the time.

[Apple1996]

70%? Lol maybe in the past but now a days it's more like 30-40% end in divorce. The high number of divorces was acutally from boomers and their bad marriages. They are getting older now so it'll probably keep going down 😂

And no shit women are the ones initiating since they aren't getting anything from the marriage and men are getting everything so they have no reason to want a divorce.

[msc545]

@Apple1996 no, stupid, women initiate it to make money and because hypergamy. Here in the state I live in its 70%.

[Apple1996]

Women come out of divorces with less money than the man so it's def not for money.

And hypergamy doesn't exist in the US for women. Most men here are broke and dont offer much. It does exist for men in a way tho since they are constantly going after the same age and looks from women. There is a reason why you guys will all watch the same porn/get obsessed with the same insta or OF models

[DrPepper12]

@Apple1996 Agreed. Evidence backs that up. Increasing numbers of men have nothing to offer but addiction, lack of education and are an albatross around women who are more educated, more well traveled, authentic social support groups and increasingly live alone and defer children to much later if at all.

[msc545]

The only women that marry those kind of men are the same women that wind up as drug addicts and alcoholics as well.

[msc545]

Provide some evidence that men are better off in marriage than women are. I'm sure all my divorced friends would like to know about that.

[msc545]

Also, you keep citing the social sciences but never provide any evidence. Even if you could provide some evidence it would be meaningless since the social sciences are mainly comprised of women and women have their biases to put it mildly.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Marriage could be a good thing or a bad thing for men.

[msc545]

70% of the time, marriage is a bad thing for men.