The Continuing War Between Atheism and Religion: Does Everyone Understand the Difference Between Atheists and Theists?

[RolandCuthbert]

I just want to set the record straight for my atheists friends who continually post degrading things about religion. . . well specifically Christianity. I mean it really is the only religion that kind of bothers them. So since they are trying to seize the high ground by employing this new methodology of changing the syntax of the definition of atheism. I suggest a similar strategy to be employed by theists.

Instead of talking about beliefs. Just talk about your religion in terms of non-beliefs.

So atheists claim that they have no beliefs in religion. Because no one can prove to them that God exists. It doesn't seem to matter to them that religion is not defined in what it can prove. It is defined by faith. It is faith in the substance of things hoped for and in the evidence of things not seen.

But since they keep putting this ridiculous requirement upon religion to come up with a scientific hypothesis and to prove the existence of a Being that stands outside of natural law, we should employ a different strategy.

I am a theist, because I lack the belief in the non-existence of God.

So I simply flip their strategy on its head. They must prove that God does not exist for me to abandon my religious beliefs.

This nonsense needs to stop. There are many more fruitful pursuits for the brilliant people who are atheists and who are theists. Our goals should be the same, that is to do what we can to help humanity, to lift those up from poverty, to be the voice of justice for those who are voiceless, to improve the chances that our race will survive.

Religion should not be afraid of science and science should not lecture religious folks. I know scientists who are among the most religious people I have ever met. Science has much to say about how we can survive, how things work in the universe, and what plans we can make for the future. But religion is what gives us purpose. No matter what atheists claim, every human being must have a purpose for living. Otherwise they die. Humans must believe they have a function and a purpose for being here. Science cannot provide that.

Personally that is one of the biggest reasons why I believe in God. We are "created" with a need for purpose. We strive to build our lives into something that has meaning. Whether we do it helping others, becoming an artist, a technologist, or even a scientist. We believe we need do to something to help contribute in some way to this collective we call humanity.

Erwin Schrodinger was one of the most brilliant minds in physics back in his day.

[snowboarder720]

I'm an Athiest born and raise in northern Utah. Home of the mormon capital of the world. My whole family and I are the black sheep of the state, it's kinda funny. I've met mormons who are the worst people I will ever meet and a few good ones who are literally the best people to walk on the face of this planet.
I've come to realize everyone will have their differences. Though you can't talk someone out of their religion and talking them into it can be very disrespectful. The important thing is that you just let everyone be with what they're deeply passionate about, as long as they aren't harming you then there's absolutely no harm done.

[RolandCuthbert]

I totally agree. And expanding upon your point, I think theists and atheists should work together on things we already agree upon. We all want to leave the earth in better shape than we found it.

But some folks want to spend energy trying to figure out how to defeat the other.

[goaded]

Dominionists don't want to leave the earth in better shape than we found it, do they?

[cherryphi82]

Awesome myTake!!! I'm a theist myself, although somewhat of an agnostic and a polytheist, but nonetheless. You hit the nail on the head when you say that religion is not about proving that something exists but faith in things unseen, as well as, beliefs giving us purpose. I do not understand why atheists are offended by people's faith, if it does not outright harm them. People are allowed to believe as they wish, that includes not believing in a God as long as they don't try to take faith away to those who do believe.

[RolandCuthbert]

I think it comes from the. . . if you forgive this observation, "eurocentric" ideal that you need to create a belief system that is superior to other belief systems. So some atheists try to create this perception that there is this exclusive club of people who participate in this same belief system. And the members of this club, by virtue of being members, are superior to others who belong to other "clubs". So for purposes of arguing or debating different issues, they can pretend that somehow, they are more logical or rational than the highly emotional or unstable people of "faith".

It is a theme you see repeated over and over again in debates. This need to claim they have "ascended" to a place of rational logical thinking.

But humans are many times irrational. . . and most times highly illogical. Even atheists. And then there is this;

www.dumagueteinfo.com/.../proxy.php

[RolandCuthbert]

Oops. that didn't work!

I was trying to attach this;

media.boreme.com/.../leonard-nimoy-logic.jpg

[cherryphi82]

That doesn't offend me at all. You're right. And I can see it in my own church that I go to. There is a superiority complex in Christian churches but that's the funny thing. This very hubris annuls their faith.

[Cryostatic]

"I do not understand why atheists are offended by people's faith, if it does not outright harm them."

The Christian faith actively harms people in the US on a daily basis, through laws and legislation that are pushed through by Christians seeking to force their brand of morality on others. If they would be happy with worshipping their god and leave everyone else the hell alone, none of this would be an issue.

[cherryphi82]

Thanks for MHO :)

[Cheetah23]

@Cryostatic So what you're saying is... SOME Christian believers are harming you, and thus you should be allowed to harm back? What is this, a kindergarten battle?

[RolandCuthbert]

@Cryostatic Not all Christians wish to "force" morality onto you. Some of us are aware of the imagery around Christianity forcing people to "believe". We dislike it as much as you do.

[Cheetah23]

@Cryostatic Let's be honest.. it would be an issue and STILL is an issue for other reasons. Humans just do not like difference in communities. They thrive with people like them and feel they need to attack those who are different; that is, BOTH Theists and Athiests do this to one another.
Wanting to attack a whole belief system just because of sooome petty individuals' (INEVITABLE - as they are humans) actions hurt you is not a good justification, nor does it place you in any more of a superior or "rightful" position as them.

[curiousnorway]

Thanks for sharing your views with us. : )

It's not called "Having a lack of belief in the none-existence of god". If you believes in a deity, it's called "believing in god". We've Gnostic and agnostic-theism. But it's however possible to have lack of belief in gods. Why it's possible is because of atheists aren't necessary denying the existence of god. A person who don't believe in gods think there's no gods. But a person with lack of belief don't accept the claim of there being gods, but don't deny their existence. I'm a theist like you and although religion is about faith, we would still have the burden of proof instead of the atheists if we were going to find out if God existed or not because it's our claims, not theirs. If they claimed big bang or unicorns are real, then it's their task to prove it.

Another thing I wants to add, although religion don't have to always go against science - it's still a smart thing to think so because of which techniques that's good to use. If everyone could claim something and everything were accepted, the world would be chaotic. Then unicorns, flying pink bears and teleportation humans were suddenly accepted as real. With the strict scientific mindset people would have burden for proof and therefor it wouldn't be as chaotic. Then we don't accept everything as facts.

I think however that everybody should accept that everyone have different beliefs and opinions. I do at the same time support atheists not accepting all of my, your's or everyone else's claims as facts.

It's only nihilist-atheists who think life is meaningless. Regular atheists only have lack of belief in gods. But they can believe in other things like Buddhism and think life have a purpose. Atheists are different. Some none-nihilist atheists believe life have a meaning, but that's not objective and that we all have to find our own meaning with life instead of gods determining it. Some believe families, friends and hobbies are the meaning with life. You don't have to believe in gods or an afterlife to have a meaning with life. Some atheists believe life is like a party, it's not lasting forever - but it's not pointless.

[RolandCuthbert]

I didn't post the take as a critique against atheism. I posted it as a critique against "winning" this war. The war between atheism and religion is pointless. And this new strategy being employed for debate, only shows how pointless this whole conflict is.

Most people in this debate think they are pretty intelligent. And I am just asking them to act like it.

[curiousnorway]

I'm agree the conflicts between atheists and theists are pointless. Atheists and theists should both show respect. But a peaceful discussion is fine.

[ScottieO]

Atheists wouldn't give a shit what you believed if religious people would stop trying to corrode science education in our schools, tell women what to do with their bodies, fly airplanes into our buildings, and ON and ON and ON. But they can't, and some of us have had enough of the damage that religion is causing in this world.

There's so much wrong in your post that I don't even know where to begin. I'll just pick a few things because I don't feel like writing 10 pages on this.

"I just want to set the record straight for my atheists friends who continually post degrading things about religion. . . well specifically Christianity. I mean it really is the only religion that kind of bothers them."
LIterally the first thing you said. Wrong as hell. You have to live in a well maintained bubble to think that atheists are only bothered by Christianity. Not only will almost every atheist tell you that this is incorrect, but hell, this "new atheist" movement was essentially triggered by 9/11 - an attack on us motivated by religion (hint: not Christianity).

"So atheists claim that they have no beliefs in religion. Because no one can prove to them that God exists. It doesn't seem to matter to them that religion is not defined in what it can prove. It is defined by faith. It is faith in the substance of things hoped for and in the evidence of things not seen."
The first part is correct. As an atheist I am simply unconvinced in the evidence for your or any other God. It's an incredibly simple concept, and I'm sure you've heard the following explanation before. You know exactly what it's like to be an atheist because you don't believe in the thousands of other Gods that people today, and in the past, believed in. You don't consider the possibility that Zeus exists. That's all being an atheist is, except that YOUR god is included in that grouping of Gods for which the evidence is unconvincing to them.
The second part - it's great if you want to claim that your religion is based on faith. But faith never seems to be enough. How many examples do you think I could dig up on this very website of religious people claiming NOT that they believe in God solely due to the strength of their faith, but they claim that SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, REASON, and LOGIC are on their side too? Those are not elements of faith. They need these rational arguments on their side too because their faith isn't strong enough to sustain their beliefs on its own.
Out of characters. Guess I'll stop here.

[rjroy3]

So many fallacies.

[rjroy3]

Most notable is "tell women what to do with their bodies".

If you can't even honestly frame the argument of the other side, then you're not coming from a place to honestly argue a point. It's about a life, separate from the mother, while housed inside of her. Aka telling women they can't end a life that isn't their own, even if it's inside of her vs say... getting a haircut.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah, he seems to build strawmen and argue against them. He claims that the new movement started because 9/11.

it is just another instance of an atheist unable to figure out that many theists would like to stop this nonsense and get on with helping humanity. It has become obvious that we have bigger problems than each other.

[ScottieO]

Ignore the abortion example then. Focusing on any one example I gave misses the point about the NUMEROUS ways the religious intrude upon the lives of everyone else. If I made "so many fallacies" then point them out.

[ScottieO]

And the new atheist movement did kick off around 9/11. Sam Harris's first book on the topic was a direct response to 9/11 and the incident completely refocused the atheist movement.

[rjroy3]

I'd rather not waste all my time. Anyone who drops that many on the table and moves on doesn't care about approaching the table honestly. I'm also not up for debating every point. So let us be passing ships in the night *waves*

[ScottieO]

Uh huh. Of course. lol.

[RolandCuthbert]

@ScottieO, This is the problem with atheists. Of course religious people have made many mistakes. But please explain to me the rationale in using these issues as your basis for ridiculous assertions made about religion overall.

If religious people have hurt you in the past or did something to you, you felt unfair then yes I can understand why you would "hate" religion.

But stop pretending that your viewpoint is simply based upon logic and science. Because it isn't.

[BoySittingOnTheMoon]

"Well specifically Christianity. I mean it really is the only religion that kind of bothers them."

It seems that way because maybe you're from the USA where it is the most religious country where Christians are the majority. it is the same with Turkey, there's few Atheists in Turkey and they are bothered about Islam because Muslims are the majority in Turkey.

"So atheists claim that they have no beliefs in religion."

False, atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism doesn't have a view of the world or a philosophy.

"So I simply flip their strategy on its head. They must prove that God does not exist for me to abandon my religious beliefs."

That's a tough one, prove to me Zeus, Thor or Apollo doesn't exist, and I'll use your method.

"Religion should not be afraid of science and science should not lecture religious folks."

Afraid? Religion is not a person, it's a belief system. There is clearly conflicts between science and religions. If you want me to put into more details regarding this then I'll show you.

Yes, religion does give people hope and purpose that's what Richard Dawkins have said but he still do criticise religions.

As an atheist I have a purpose to live, my close family, never stop questioning, always seek the truth, find the girl of my life, raise my children, be old and die happily. Religion only restricts me on a lot of things.

[RolandCuthbert]

"False, atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism doesn't have a view of the world or a philosophy."

It is always frustrating talking to people who don't use the standard definition for terms, which leads to inconsistent nonsensical positions. And so many atheists do this.

So before you have even begun to talk I have to dismiss you as being nonsensical.

The definition of religion;

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

Why do you get to redefine religion? Is it for building a better argument?

[BoySittingOnTheMoon]

When did I give the definition of religion? I was defining what atheism is and atheism is not a religion.

[RolandCuthbert]

Religion is defined as belief in a God or gods. I think I just stated that very plainly in the previous post. But you claim that atheism is the disbelief in God or gods but a disbelief in religion.

You don't see how nonsensical that is?

[Political_dude]

You're confused between atheism and theism. Atheism is lack of belief in God and not religion. I'm atheist yet I follow my birth religion just don't worship God.

It is because religion is something we evolved, got better with time and has much knowledge with in. For example, my religion tells me to be vegan (which is healthy), it tells me to fast on specific days which is again healthy.


The problem with you argument is as a Cristian, you dismiss existence of Allah. Which you cannot prove since it's a belief not fact. Similarly, I dismiss existence of your god. That's it. That's atheism.

Now why should we go for God and not science? You're telling me "our purpose should be helping humanity. That's what god told us" but since god is supernatural, you can not question him "why" if it is out of context from religious book, your question will remain unanswered.

And last point, Belief. Your friend is an asshole. I believe reality is subjective. For me god isn't real but for you it is. None of us can prove our statements. That means both of them are real unless proved otherwise. So instead of forcing our beliefs to the throats of others, we should just keep religion private.

[RolandCuthbert]

You continue to disappoint political dude. Again, it is obvious you are intelligent, but you just don't apply yourself. You talk as though I became a Christian by employing some methodology using evidence and facts.

So that shows you know nothing of being a Christian or how one becomes a Christian.

As for your second point, it is like there is something brilliant in there. But you posted before you were ready. You didn't develop your thoughts into something coherent.

I demand more of you.

Try that again. . .

And think about this point you almost made. "Why do we think the goal of helping other people is universal"?

Come back to me with something brilliant, because I know you can.

[Cryostatic]

Your argument fails a basic logic test.

If I tell you I have a pink and purple polka-dotted unicorn in my basement, the onus is upon me to produce evidence of my wild, outlandish claim. It's not YOUR responsibility to produce evidence of my unicorn's nonexistence. In that vein, it makes absolutely no sense for me to disbelieve in your belief of the nonexistence of my unicorn.

You can't disbelieve the nonexistence of a thing. That's a double negative, it doesn't even make any sense. It's complete logical absurdity. This isn't even remotely arguable.

Now, as far as faith and religion is concerned. I am an atheist. This does not mean that I've chosen not to believe in your god. It means that I do not feel ~compelled~ to believe in any gods that have been presented to me thus far, including yours. I have not seen what is, to my mind, sufficient evidence of an almighty being. I'm not closed off to the possibility that one exists, I'm just not compelled to believe that yours does, based on the empirical evidence that I've acquired.

You, likewise, have not "chosen" to believe in your god. You feel ~compelled~ to believe in your god by your own experiences and observations, and while I do not understand that, I respect it.

I will admit that atheists have a good deal of contempt for Christians and Christianity, especially here in the US, where Christians try very, very, VERY hard to shove their particular brand of morality down the throats of everyone else through legislation and rule of law. It's frustrating, irritating, and exhausting to deal with. We don't understand why you can't just go worship your god in your own way and be happy with that and leave everyone else the hell alone.

[RolandCuthbert]

And your argument is the standard ignorant nonsensical view of many atheists. The issue is not whether I make outlandish claims. The issue is whether or not I insist that my claims are based upon scientific evidence. I do not claim to believe in a being that bound by the natural scientific laws of the universe. I believe that God created those laws. He Himself is not bound by them.

Of course you can disbelieve in the non-existence of a thing. What nonsense is this you speak of? I disbelieve there is evidence of the non-existence of God. It is the same word salad every atheists uses to make the claim the only believe in verifiable scientific evidence. It has been established on countless occasions that most atheists are not scientific and know very little about science.

It is a good thing also. Because science would definitely challenge their atheist reasoning.

[AD240pCharlie]

But science CAN explain why we enjoy music just like it can tell us why we like sweet food. It's evolutionary psychology, the only difference is that we already know the answer to the second one. We don't know the specifics of why we like music, but that doesn't mean that science cannot answer it.
Personally, I have nothing against faith, as long as it doesn't cloud their judgement. Having faith in a higher power is one thing, having such an extreme faith in the Bible or the Quran that you start denying scientific facts is when it becomes an issue. If there's a contradiction between faith and logic, logic should always be preferable.
I find purpose in entertainment, challenges, friends and experiences. I don't need a creator to give my life meaning, I can do that myself. To me, the fact that we're here because of an "accident" makes life so much more precious. But I understand why that's not enough for some people, because I used to be the same. I used to believe in a God just because I WANTED it to be true, but the more I kept thinking about it, the more I realized that I was just FORCING myself to believe it. I'm not the kind of person who can believe something just because it makes me feel good. I'm too much of a skeptic.

[RolandCuthbert]

You have to find your own path young one. That's why life is about. I found mine. And yes, if a person's views start to conflict reality, then I would tend to agree, something is wrong with that person.

But to blame their belief system is not very rational. . . wouldn't you agree?

[AD240pCharlie]

Oh, I'm not blamin any specific belief system. I know plenty of catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Jews who still believe in evolution simply because they don't let their religion and faith dictate their view on science and facts. One of them even said that she believes in the story of genesis AND the theory of evolution but that she couldn't explain how she could do so. She simply explained that she had a logical belief system (evolution) and an emotional belief system (creationism) and that they simply didn't interfere with each other.
I don't really care if anyone believes in things like evolution, because the thing about science is that it doesn't need validation, it's true no matter whether or not you choose to believe it. But when I say "having such an extreme faith in the Bible or the Quran that you start denying scientific facts is when it becomes an issue", I'm specifically talking about the type of people who want to teach religious creation stories in science classes.

[Deathraider]

"But since they keep putting this ridiculous requirement upon religion to come up with a scientific hypothesis and to prove the existence of a Being that stands outside of natural law, we should employ a different strategy."
But you know, these non-Illuminatist keep putting up ridiculous requirements upon us to come up with evidence for a government organization manipulating everything to stay hidden.

The problem is the lack of evidence and verifiability of the claims. It's just as valid for me to claim the Illuminati like that.

"I am a theist, because I lack the belief in the non-existence of God."
Except here's the thing, someone could claim they lack a belief in the nonexistence of the Illuminati. You see, the problem with that argument is it's attempting to shift the burden of proof. And that's exactly what's going on.

" But religion is what gives us purpose. No matter what atheists claim, every human being must have a purpose for living. Otherwise they die. Humans must believe they have a function and a purpose for being here. Science cannot provide that."
Here's the thing, people constantly claim that you need to find a purpose, but never about making a purpose. Purpose could come from outside of religion. You aspire to have a family? Well that's a purpose. You aspire to be rich? Well that's a purpose. You aspire to be a scientist? Well that's a purpose.

Well BBC has a explanation why most people like music:
"In 2001, neuroscientists Anne Blood and Robert Zatorre at McGill University in Montreal provided an answer. Using magnetic resonance imaging they showed that people listening to pleasurable music had activated brain regions called the limbic and paralimbic areas, which are connected to euphoric reward responses, like those we experience from sex, good food and addictive drugs."
by the way, not too much of a music fan.

[RolandCuthbert]

I guess you mean illuminati? But anyway that whole diatribe was nonsensical.

Anyway there is no burden of proof. There is no proof for faith.

The religious definition of faith, the second most widely used application of the term;

"strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof"

I guess being so young you don't understand how problematic and fruitless it is to mock people's beliefs. But I don't expect you to understand at this age. Like most people claim atheism, I am sure you ran into theists who were mean to you or persecuted you in some way.

I can only say I am sorry.

[Deathraider]

Why is there a double standard you put up?

But what we consider as true should have evidence. Otherwise, we would have to make a long list about "truth" which are just what people believe in instead of actually proving.

"I guess being so young you don't understand how problematic and fruitless it is to mock people's beliefs. But I don't expect you to understand at this age. Like most people claim atheism, I am sure you ran into theists who were mean to you or persecuted you in some way."
Is it mocking if I point out flaws in arguments? Sorry for pointing out your flaws. My sincere apologies for pointing out bad arguments.

[oddwaffle]

Atheist is about the lack of belief in supernatural. It's sort of what people are when they are born. Overtime, they get converted, forcefully or otherwise.

Theist alone isn't a problem. It's when theists start to put their beliefs above reasons and logic then force the world to bend towards their beliefs. It's not because they all have faith but because they just don't like other people doing different. That's when things get really hairy.

At best it would be like a vegan trying to convert people in a meal about the virtue of going vegan. At worst it started to harm development.

For example, it was hard to get people to sign up for organs donation in Israel. It's because they have this "body is scared" thing in their religion. However, we all know that a lot of people wait for organ transplant and died.

So the government managed to do something simple: people who signed up for organ donation gets 1st piority in receiving transplant. Then suddenly, everybody tried to sign up for it.

If the government believed in the whole "body is sacred" deal then we would have had a lot of problem.

[RolandCuthbert]

"It's not because they all have faith but because they just don't like other people doing different. That's when things get really hairy."

Haha! So I am supposed to believe that atheists do not put their beliefs above reason and logic. . and they do not force the world to bend towards their beliefs.

:D

s2.quickmeme.com/.../...aa3fee0bc86b57574f663e.jpg

[oddwaffle]

Atheist the lack of faith in supernatural. It's something that a lot of people don't understand. They called themselves atheist but they don't actually know what it means and why.

For example, a guy said there is magic. Like fireballs and storm spells and all that vampires and werewolves. A theist will say it's not true because of whatever scripture that he is reading. An atheist says "prove it".

Once something can be proven to be correct from tests and data with confidence then it is a science. You can't prove magic unless you can test it.

[RolandCuthbert]

No, atheists do not believe in the existence of God. But the certainly put their "faith" into things they do not understand. . . like science.

Now, I am quite sure there are folks that you don't agree with who call themselves atheists. Unfortunately, the definition of Christians and Atheists do not include just the people we like and accept.

If it were that simple, I could just exclude all the folks who claim to be Christians but have beliefs that I totally disagree with.

atheism;

a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

[oddwaffle]

Also, the Bible isn't the only religion around. Tell me about ancestors worship. Tell me about daoism.

Every religion is called a "Dao". It's pretty much what is translated. It just means "Path". So the "Dao of Chirst" means Christianity. It's the same with "Dao if Sleep" or "Dao of BBQ Sauce" or "Dao of Heaven"

[RolandCuthbert]

What does this have to do with our conversation?

[oddwaffle]

Yeah the correct one is "a". The "b" is wrong because it targeted only known religion.

Not every religion has god or gods.

Therefore, atheist just simply means lack of belief.

Not everyone who doesn't believe in a religion is an atheist. You need to actually know what it means.

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha! So you now can decide if a dictionary is wrong?

I just want to say that maybe. . .

you can't.

Dictionaries define word usage. That is one of the ways the word atheism is used.

izquotes.com/.../...o-god-by-carl-sagan-263888.jpg

[oddwaffle]

Also science do not require faith.

Calling faith in science is wrong. You can have faith in something you can not predict. You don't have faith in something you can predict.

For example, you have faith that your salary will increase this month. You don't have faith that your $20 will become a $100 when you pay your bills.

[oddwaffle]

Errr. Are you sure you know what a dictionary is? Dictionary do not define words, as in make it so. They let you know what a word commonly means.

[RolandCuthbert]

Science does not require faith. But you have science and atheism confused. Most atheists are not scientific.

They have no idea of science, the scientific method, etc.

www.tfp.org/.../...Scientific_Atheism_is_Not_B.jpg

[RolandCuthbert]

You are kind of weird.

I told you that dictionaries define word usage. Then you repeated the definition I told you.

Yeah. . . that's kind of off the deep end there.

[oddwaffle]

Atheism is created by guys like you who can't stand people who are different.

The lack of something doesn't mean anything. It's just the way it is.

[oddwaffle]

Dictionary do not determine Banana is a fruit, a brand or a person. It just let you know the word could mean those.

You are the one that is weird. Because the the dictionary "defines" stuff therefore they don't. get it wrong?

[oddwaffle]

You are right atheism isn't science. People just don't know what atheist means.

So now you have a 3rd group of people who don't believe in religion.

[RolandCuthbert]

So again you just repeated my explanation of a dictionary. And you actually believe you are saying something different than. . ."dictionaries define word usage".

People use a word in a certain way, dictionaries define how they are using that word. That's why that definition is in the dictionary.

So. . . . .

?

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't think you have thought this through. You seem to be making stuff up as you go along.

A third group that does not believe in. . .

what?

[oddwaffle]

There is something you don't seem to understand.

Being an atheist means you don't believe in the superpower. The moment you believe in something blindly then it's the moment you are no longer an atheist.

You need to get this into your head. It is possible for people not to believe in anything.

Theists are so up into their world that they feel it's inconceivable for someone not to believe in anything.

Words are written by people so a dictionary can be written by theists and they can get it wrong. They don't understand what atheist means and just write down what they see. That's why I am telling you the dictionary is wrong.

[RolandCuthbert]

No, atheists may not believe in God, but they do believe in something. And that's the thing. Whether or not you have faith in some natural process or in a Supernatural being. . . you still have faith.

Because you have do not have proof or either. And that is what you have to get through your head. When it comes to this universe and its origins you will always need to have faith.

And that's okay. It is apart of the human experience.

The funny thing is, if/when we encounter an alien civilization, probably one of the few things we will have in common is a widespread belief in God.

:D

[Anonymous]

... And then "God did it" was taught to children and Evolution was pushed out of schools.

It is not a matter of theism or atheism on a personal level but on a social level where such laws and considerations are spread throughout the land without need for double-check. "God did it" shouldn't be in schools. If you want to harmonize with science then do anything but tell someone that scientific evidence is garbage and "God did it."

The issue is not picking a side but demanding that ignorance be ended. And it is not the position of atheism to make any claims, for it is worthless as a belief claim, but theism often carries with it tenets and those tenets often argue against the physical world. To make it fit in the modern times the intellectuals have acceded that it is merely allegory but unfortunately not everyone is an intellectual and thusly when the religious man tiptoes up to the podium of the world leaders and whispers his desire to be made whole and his tenets to reign over all else then we have a problem.

It is not a matter of proving the other side wrong so much as it is a matter of preventing the oppression of information from the side that has the biggest voice.

[RolandCuthbert]

You cannot decide what children should or should not learn. What should be taught in schools should be an issue left up to public discourse. Perhaps some jurisdictions would like to have a moment of silence for students to pray or meditate. That is something people can decide for themselves. Obviously, you have no rights when it comes to private schools that are Christian, etc. Having gone to one, I can tell you they recognize the importance of science.

And no, most theists don't make claims about the physical world. At least not those who are rational.

I think one of the problems with many atheists is they do not seem to realize there are more theists on their side when it comes to science, than not. They seem to attack all religion, even those who recognize the benefits of science and technology.

www.theguardian.com/.../myth-scientists-religion-hating-atheists

[Opinion Owner]

So then in public schools should they teach that homosexuality is a mental illness and evolution is garbage there is no disservice?

Religion shapes our laws. Religion shapes our education. Religion shapes our government. And this is fine because the mass public wants this?

I don't care about random moments of silence. I don't what most people do. I care about the laws I have to abide by and the education my child may potentially receive. I don't even care if the split is 90/10 in favor of evolution. I'm aware of the scholars in the Vatican.

But that doesn't stop that 10% from shading over the world. These things aren't imaginary threats of a fevered mind though I wish they were. I wish none of this really happened and I was just paranoid but all of it has occurred within the past few years and people still misunderstand things like science, misrepresenting it in major ways, philosophy with emphasis on law in an "us versus them" manner and homosexuality.

[RolandCuthbert]

You just went off on a strange tangent. What school teaches this about homosexuality? Religion does not shape our laws, education, or government. But religious people have a say in all of those things as well as atheists.

I would say that your views are paranoid. I know that we have huge issues facing the human race. And again, I don't understand atheists who constantly war with the religious folks who understand we need to embrace science and technology. It seems as if you are content with annihilating all religion and trying to fight a war you cannot win.

[Opinion Owner]

"What school teaches this about homosexuality?"

www.reuters.com/.../chinese-gay-activist-challenges-homosexuality-disorder-textbooks-idUSKCN11I174

This is a problem across the globe. In the U. S. tons of schools as of even last year don't protect the LGBTQ.

www.hrw.org/.../discrimination-against-lgbt-youth-us-schools

Public websites don't do this justice as the biases themselves aren't not explained with teachers in very religious areas completely mistreating and ignoring youth who do not confirm and religious based schools sharing that various things about homosexuality are sinful. I am not even beginning on the Islamic schools across the world that teach the same or the fact that Texas avoided teaching sex ed to avoid the issue altogether last year.

It happens. Welcome to Earth.

[RolandCuthbert]

What does your link have to do with pigs on the north pole? I don't live in China. I live in the U. S. I could not affect the educational policy of China if I tried.

?

Haha!!!

I can't solve problems across the globe. I can only continue to extend my hand to atheists and tell them I am not their enemy. And all I can do is watch you and your kind repeatedly slap my hand away.

So since you so intent on making me an enemy. I can only wish you good luck. In fact good luck to us all. Because extremists. . . religious or not. . . seem to be winning this battle. The supposed intelligent among us are too dumb to unite and to point to a better path for humanity.

[najekim]

Two items for rebuttal:
1. To achieve your worthy stated goals, religion is not required or needed. Global cooperation is. But because of the various religions in the world, that will probaby never happen unfortunately. Christians will want things their way; Muslims, their way, etc. Then you have others like the Hindus, the Buddists, the Jainists, and everyone else.
2. The religions under Christianity have been targeted mostly because they have, currently and historically, been the most aggressive and destructive in forcing others conform in what their dogmas dictate (i. e., crusades, missionaries, Spanish Inquistition, et al). Even the founding fathers of the US, like Thomas Jefferson, were Deists who did not trust Christians.

[RolandCuthbert]

Ah! A man from my generation! I don't proceed to create world peace. I asked about this nonsensical war. What is to come of it and how is it going to end? Maybe since there can be no winner, why not focus on our supposed mutual goals? Not many here have taken me up on my offer. They prefer, instead, to insult my belief system. Which of course, does not support the view that most atheists are only trying to help mankind.

I am well aware of the history of Christians. I can't defend murder, rape, torture and worse. I can only tell you my beliefs and offer my hand in friendship.

[najekim]

IMHO, the only way to, unfortunately, achieve any of what you wish for are the basic 3C's between the powers to be: Cooperation, Compassion, & Compromise.

[shephardjhon]

" I know scientists who are among the most religious people I have ever met."
True. I learned Bioinformatics, including parts of evolution from a deeply religious Muslim teacher. And to give some perspective, Bioinformatics is part of genomics, i. e. not just modifying things like making Ligers or new species or strains of fruit, I am talking genetically modifying humans and using genetics for curing or preventing disease.
Same for most of my maths/stats/calculus etc courses being taught by people who, to an uninformed American/Westerner, would look like a Taliban as would the guy who taught me Bioinformatics.

[jacquesvol]

izquotes.com/.../...you-stephen-roberts-299825.jpg

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't expect for you to understand old friend. You are too busy fighting the war you can never win.

Good luck to you.

I still love you by the way!

:D

[jacquesvol]

Dear Roland that war was won long ago... :)

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha! Jacques, if it were, why do you care so much about this topic? One would have thought you would have dismissed me months ago.

[jacquesvol]

@RolandCuthbert there are still people who don't (want to) understand it.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't understand that statement old friend.

[sillycakes]

I am not knowledgeable enough to influence people over this. Interesting question though. I personally am born, raised, and still consider myself Catholic. However, I keep an open mind and my opinions constantly change.

[SportsBrah]

A secular society will never be achieved because people will always come up with urban myths to believe in the absence of organized religion.

[RolandCuthbert]

hmmmm. . . interesting observation.

[wisdom_sharer]

Freedom of religion or belief is very misused these days, theist think it can justify holding every ridiculous belief they have.
And I'm saying this as a theist.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, what do you mean by that? What are the ridiculous beliefs theists hold onto? A flat earth? The earth being 10,000 years old, etc?

[wisdom_sharer]

That. Rambling about God's will, hiding behind their "beliefs" to command others how and why to live, hiding their own ignorance behind Bible quotes, making up stories that fit them, not reality, denying human impact on global warming, spreading lies and unchecked facts, making ignorance a virtue...

[RolandCuthbert]

But I don't consider those types of people examples of Christianity. I would never deny basic science or make up a story to that does not fit reality. I wouldn't spread a lie. Lying is considered to be a sin.

I guess I don't recognize the Christianity you have been exposed to as "Christianity".

[wisdom_sharer]

"But I don't consider those types of people examples of Christianity. " - and yet, no one denounces these people. And they are the reason why creationism/ID became synonym for Christianity wordwide... It's not about exposure, there's milions if them

[RolandCuthbert]

But they are denounced. It is just that, they are louder. They have power, they have money and they use it effectively.

Creflo Dollar Will Get $70 Million Gulfstream G650 Jet Says Church; World Changers Board Says It Is 'Necessary' for Ministry

www.christianpost.com/.../

cdn6-thechristianpost.netdna-ssl.com/.../img.jpg

[wisdom_sharer]

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but don't even try to tell me that Catholic church doesn't have the money. 😀

[RolandCuthbert]

Of course they do.

The Pope is probably the most powerful position in the history of mankind.

Not sure where in the Bible, Christ advocated for such a position however.

[wisdom_sharer]

... There, I'm glad we talked and understand each other. :)

[macix670]

I have no war with them. Their opinions are irrelevant to me. Like why would I care what an atheist thinks of my religion?
But if they are respectful towards me, then I will do the same.

[AlphaGhost]

I think its the oppression of free speech and let him do, what ever he wants too.
Its his pathway to truth and we must stay away from this and its between him and his GOD not us.

[John_Doesnt]

Yes, only the true God can free people.
https://i.imgflip.com/1spxia.jpg

[AlphaGhost]

@John_Doesnt Lol man its no even funny but absurd.

[John_Doesnt]

if it's not funny than why did you right "lol"? I think you secretly want to serve our dark lord Satan.

[AlphaGhost]

@John_Doesnt No I have my own share of Darkness just like you.

[Zebadee88]

God is a fairy story to fill in our lack of knowledge. And a great excuse to hate someone, ignore someone or kill someone or go to war... Pretty stupid really.

[RolandCuthbert]

It Is funny how your view only can see God as an excuse to do something bad. But never to do something good.

[Zebadee88]

Equally interesting that you by your own response seem to need a god to guide you to do something good? god does not exist and yet I am perfectly capable of having a conscience and make my mind up about what is right and wrong - I need no god to be the caring, generous, protective man that I am.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well I am a Christian, I don't expect you to understand or accept my beliefs when it comes to "goodness". But it is always interesting to hear atheists constantly blame religion for the world's ills. And not the choices of unreasonable human beings.

[Zebadee88]

I am not blaming religion for all the world's ills. But I think religion overall does as much harm as good. Out of interest do you believe god created everything and the fossil records are all rubbish?

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, you certainly have not mentioned the good. So forgive me if I don't believe you.

As for what I believe, why are you asking me what I believe? Doesn't that sound silly in the atheist world?

Shouldn't you be asking me what can I prove?

:D

[Zebadee88]

You can not prove God exists but feel free to try if you like.

[RolandCuthbert]

I never claimed that I could.

And you can't prove that God does not exist. We are just two different groups of people with a profound lack of belief in two different things.

You have a lack of belief in the existence of God.

I have a lack of belief in His non-existence.

:D

[Zebadee88]

Good answer but I see it slightly differently.

You believe in something made up? I believe in fact based research and knowledge.

[RolandCuthbert]

No, you don't. You have no facts or research to explain why or how the universe came into being.

You have "faith".

Which is good. We all need "faith".

[Zebadee88]

We know how elements are formed in stars and that's a million miles closer to reality than a mysterious deity decided to create a gazillion stars and put man on one planet? Don't you agree?

[RolandCuthbert]

A million miles closer to reality. haha! In who's estimation? Yours? The greatest minds in physicists do not agree. They do not think they are closer to explaining the birth of the universe than intelligent design.

And this comes from their own mouths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5jG8lioMWk

What is a boltzmann brain sir?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bVICtAvAno

[Zebadee88]

I mean no offence if you choose to have faith in a god. If there is a god then he is a cruel and twisted and sick. Creating people with extreme disabilities? Creating a nematode worm that uses children's eyes as an incubator, causing blindness? All in god's plan I hear a lot... Well that just doesn't make any sense.

[RolandCuthbert]

And I find that statement absolutely weird. Atheists always look at the world and claim "why would God allow so much evil and hardship"?

Yet, we have all the tools at our disposal to rid the world of hunger, poverty, want, and need.

But we do nothing about it, every single day.

[John_Doesnt]

I can't have respect for theists because they say stupid shit like "Atheists are a religion". So the war will continue as long as theists are ignorant.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yawn. . . all atheists try to do is try claim their belief system is not a belief system.

They don't like that word, because "believe" sounds too much like "faith".

[John_Doesnt]

And that is exactly why you don't deserve respect. You theists don't like the word polyatheism because you all reject dozens of Gods.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't think I care if you respect me or not. I can only offer my hand in friendship to atheists again and again. . .

good luck out there young one.

[John_Doesnt]

Good luck to you, I hope you find Satan.
https://i.imgflip.com/1spxia.jpg

[RolandCuthbert]

i.pinimg.com/.../...d7b6082749e4b625ce55d6c97d.jpg

[ScottieO]

Is not believing in astrology a "belief system" too Roland?

[John_Doesnt]

@ScottieO Roland has been trolling me for a long time now, I'm not sure he's serious anymore.

[RolandCuthbert]

You mean I am talking you?

Haha!

Dude, maybe you are not all that special.

pics.me.me/...ld-cause-im-stalking-you-8050051.png

[RolandCuthbert]

@ScottieO What does that even mean?

[ScottieO]

It means that "lack of belief in God" is no more a belief system than "lack of belief in astrology". They are both situations where someone is not convinced by the evidence for some proposition.

[RolandCuthbert]

@ScottieO I think you have confused yourself. Are you claiming that I am the one saying that I have a lack of belief in God?

No sir. I believe in God.

It was atheists who first made this claim after they were exposed as just another group of people who had beliefs like everyone else.

Atheists don't want to be like everyone else. They want to be apart of a belief system that is superior to everyone else's, thus the claim they are only a group of people who believe in scientific evidence. It doesn't matter that science fails to prove any of their claims.

[Alemon]

Atheist/ agnostic here. I'm indifferent to theists. They can do their thing (once it enters politics, that's a different story).

I take slight offence when

[Alemon]

--oops

they go on about "youre going to hell" etc, because I equate it similar to wishing death / murder on someone. I don't think either side should do that.