Bodily Rights and Abortion

Questions regarding abortion are strangely incredibly frequent on this site. As with some of my other myTakes this one is intended to give my response to some of the more frequent questions so I don't have to consistently write the same thing and can instead just link here in the future.

Bodily Rights and Abortion

I was once a "pro-life" supporter, but my views changed relatively quickly after hearing the bodily rights argument. My thoughts on this issue are fairly simple and as such I think this will actually be incredibly short.

Many of these conversations devolve into an argument about personhood and whether or not a fetus should count as a person. Those who propose forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her wishes will state that the fetus is a person and has a right to life. Those who disagree state that a fetus is not a person and as such does not have rights. I think this argument is pointless and unnecessary. I think it is pointless because the most coherent and powerful pro-choice argument is cogent regardless of personhood. The bodily rights argument is simply that no person has the right to use another person's body to sustain their life (absent their consent), and as such neither does a fetus. For the sake of argument I could grant a fetus every right associated with personhood and that would still not grant them the right to live in or on another person without their consent.

I think that one of the most powerful arguments that I heard on this subject is that if we force a woman to give up her right to self autonomy in preference of the fetus then we are actually granting women less rights than we grant corpses. In my country a person has to consent to be an organ donor, and if they are not an organ donor we cannot take their organs after their death regardless of how many people it could help. Yet by the millions people think that a woman should be forced to give up her uterus to another person.

Bodily Rights and Abortion

That's really it. Arguments over personhood, the sanctity of life, etc are irrelevant. No person has the right to another's body without their consent and continued consent. I don't have a right to your organs, you don't have a right to mine, a 2 year old doesn't have a right to it's mother's organs, and neither does a fetus. Anyway, hope this was concise enough, and as always correct me on anything you think I got wrong.


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Most Helpful Girl

  • And then people claim that sexism isn't a thing, yet women have less rights over their bodies than actual dead people.
    Bodily autonomy is truly the best argument for pro-choice. I really can't see why anyone would think it's ok to force a woman to go through a pregnancy that is unwanted. It will traumatize her.

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    • Well tough, the unborn have less rights other their bodies then dead people too. How on Earth can you say the same for women, they have so many rights now it is suppressive to others. I can see why they made you ultra mod, you fit right in with their extreme, bigoted suppressive regime.

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    • @martinxcv Our sperm has rights too then! Right to a hospitable vagina.

    • @TheUglyman contraception doesn't always work for example my mom was on the pill when she fell pregnant with me and my twin brother.

Most Helpful Guy

  • When you engage in intercourse and do not take precautions to avoid pregnancy, you know that you are assuming the risk of creating a life within you. If you don't want someone else "using your body," don;t engaged in unprotected sex. When you proceed without concern for the consequences, you have waived the right to make the argument that you get to control your body.

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    • Not all sex is consensual. Of the sex that is, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Many women utilize "protection" but still find themselves pregnant. Lastly, the circumstances that results in a fetus living off of them are irrelevant. No person has a right to another person's body without their continued consent.

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    • @ladsin Unprotected sex is 100% consent to pregnancy. You are literally choosing to put a baby in there. XD That's like buying an apple and then screaming that you did not consent to owning an apple.

      Also, 74% of abortions are due to not using protection... About that. 14% are due to rape. There's a huge discrepancy there.

    • @wolfcat87 Do you have a citation for those numbers?
      Regardless, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. If I give person A permission to touch me for X amount of time that does not mean I give person Y permission for Z amount of time, does it?

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What Girls Said 23

  • In states where abortion is legal, forcing a woman to give up the right to bodily autonomy is tantamount to a violation of the right already in effect de jure, and not a manner of "granting less rights".

    "Granting less rights" or having no rights at all would only be true in a political setting where the right to bodily autonomy is repealed by law, or if the concerned law is, has been, and will remain to be non-existent.

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    • Not sure what your point is, can you clarify?

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    • @ilovelegs gods have nothing to do with laws.

    • @ilivelegs

      The bible considers slavery so "natural" that it even tells you how to sell your daughters into slavery.

  • Fact of the matter is, it's my body and mine alone. Fetus or no fetus.

    Humans are not parasites, they do not need host bodies - therefor a fetus is not a fully formed human and it has ZERO rights.

    I don't know why we have to keep having this discussion. It's legal, it's becoming more available and being legalised in more and more places which only helps protect those desperate people who may find other means... why fight such a pointless war?

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    • And you missed the whole point. "Humans are not parasites, they do not need host bodies - therefor[sic] a fetus is not a fully formed human and it has ZERO rights. " A parasite is by definition of another species than the host. Ergo, your argument falls short. Humans have rights by virtue of being human; "fully formed" isn't needed, or children wouldn't have rights either. The whole point of this post is that it's irrelevant to talk about the unborn's rights; they don't extend beyond those of the born. This includes involuntary life support.

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    • We are all lumps of cells. XD Some of us better formed than others. Also, look up the definition of human. You are clearly unclear on what it means. We are all individual humans with our own DNA and bodies from conception by any definition. The only argument is on which humans you think are more valuable and who you think sohuld die. Plenty of people in history have found it beneficial to decide which humans have value and which ones do not... What happened to all humans have value? You want me to sympathize, but you are the one deciding some humans are more valuable than others.

    • @wolfcat87 A human being is defined as this:

      human being
      a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

      Soooo... which bit of that describes a blob of unformed cells Wolfcat? Can a fetus stand or speak or show signs of superior developed mental capacity? Perhaps before giggling at how clever you are YOU should check the meaning.

      And this isn't about who I think should die (trust me I'd definitely start with actual,. living humans) this is about calling the termination of potential life as killing an actual human being.

  • Any woman has a right to do what she wants with her body.
    I personally don’t think I’d have one HOWEVER you never know what situations I may get into later in life.
    Some people growing up don’t have the perfect life and may feel no other option.
    It’s not anyone’s opinion on one persons choices.

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    • Yes everything is about women's choice and rights as opposed to their responsibilities isn't it. Snowflake women

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    • @MasterAetos yes i know, we need more people to see this

    • We have laws to restrict harmful choices in every country. Should we do away with them all?

  • lmfao at stupid and uneducated people who compare the body donation with pregnancy.
    Why do women have uteruses? Can anyone finally understand that fetus is supposed to use its mother's nutrition?
    This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE. This is NATURE.

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  • Curious - 1) have you ever been pregnant and seen an ultrasound (you know the first one where it looks like a grain of rice with a heartbeat)?
    2) And have you ever been to an abortion clinic? With someone (or yourself) that is about to go through an abortion?

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  • Whoa, I never thought about it that way. The pro-life/pro-choice debate has always been one that I struggle to address, since it seems impossible to choose “the right thing,” (that said, I’ve always leaned toward pro-choice) but I think you explained this very well. Thanks!

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  • Nice take on the topic. I think it's pretty normal for a woman to decide if she wants to keep the baby or not. And I don't think she should be blamed for her choice, whatever it is.

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    • Actually no it is not normal, it goes against natural. Honestly women on this site are ignorant and lack IQ.

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    • @MasterAetos I don't care what you would do, fact is, you can't so why the hell do you get any say in what other women want to do with their bodies? Of course someone who is infertile would appreciate bringing a child up they adopted, I'm 100% agreeing with you on that and I'd advise every single woman to consider that, but not everyone wants to have a child to have to give it away. And actually, where I'm from and every other place that has legal abortions, it is up to the woman and the guy gets no say (legally) whatsoever, women have the right to deprive men from having a say at all, so no need for me to watch out. I would never abort myself, but even if I wanted too I could no matter who says what, thanks tho.

    • A baby's body is not the mom's body. A baby is a different human. A mom has every right to not make that other person in the first place. 74% of pregnancies that end in abortion are due to a lack of moms preventing those babies being made according to the women who were having the procedure done. They reported that they did not use any birth control at all in 50% of cases or used it inconsistently or improperly in 24% of cases. This is according to the world renowned Guttmacher Institute for Reproductive Health. I would be happy with people simply not making babies they do not want in the first place. I think a mom should be blamed if she makes the choice to kill a child she could have chosen to not make. Taking away blame does not promote responsibility.

  • I whole heartedly agree. A woman's body is HER body. You don't get to tell us what to do with OUR Zbody. And that's basically it. That's the whole thing. Sorry it pisses some people off, but get over it. Abortion will never be illegal anyway.

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    • A bit slow aren't you all across the world and in your states they are restricting abortion laws and rightfully so.

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    • Completely agree. :)

    • A baby's body is not the mom's body. A baby is a different human. These same people who are all for bodily autonomy often mutilate little boy penises and poke holes in child ears in my country. A mom has every right to not make that other person in the first place. 74% of pregnancies that end in abortion are due to a lack of moms preventing those babies being made according to the women who were having the procedure done. They reported that they did not use any birth control at all in 50% of cases or used it inconsistently or improperly in 24% of cases. This is according to the world renowned Guttmacher Institute for Reproductive Health. I would be happy with people simply not making babies they do not want in the first place.

  • I feel that, because of the impact on the woman, this … is a matter which is of such fundamental and basic concern to the woman involved that she should be allowed to make the choice as to whether to continue or to terminate her pregnancy.
    Exactly why I've always supported abortion rights.

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  • Good take, but what frustrates me more is all these guys down voting and arguing that it is wrong when they don't have a fucking cervix or vagina or are even a frickin woman!!! Yes it is 'against' nature, yes it can be seen to some as 'murder' but if that child is going to have no quality of life i. e severely disabled, then why the hell would you want to bring in a child that would have to go through this shit? If your a guy who is trying to tell a woman what she can & can't do with HER body, please fuck off. We don't tell you to get your balls chopped off, or get vasectomy or anything like that. Hop on ya bike and scoot

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    • Rant over :)

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    • @wolfcat87 Did you know that accidents happen, not every birth control is 100% effective.

    • @wolfcat87 Why are you getting so defensive over human rights? When have either of us said we are pro-life or pro-choice? Exactly, we haven't. I am only pro-choice when it comes to everything said up there on the opinion, if you read it. The only thing that was bashed was men wrongfully telling a woman what to do.

  • This is exactly what I'm always saying. I usually say that if, hypothetically, a grown living person had been implanted into my body somehow, I'd still think I should have every right to get rid of that person even if it meant killing them.

    It essentially comes down to priorities. But it's easy to say a fetus's right to live is more important than a woman's bodily autonomy when you're not the one affected.

    And I'll say this very clearly now: No person, no government in the world will ever force me to stay pregnant and give birth if I don't want to. Ever.

    What you pro-lifers think of that, is completely irrelevant to me.

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    • So... don't get pregnant. It's not rocket science. So many ways to prevent pregnancy these days.

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    • @wolfcat87 I agree with you that preventive measures should be taken way more seriously than they are. How we do that? Proper sex-ed in schools and easy access to all types of birth control and protection. Ironically it's always anti-abortion people/politicians who push for restricting these things. Not saying all do, but the ones who do are anti-abortion usually.

      But all that is besides the point I was making. Even if we achieve all that, accidents will still happen, especially with teens. And what about those women? They still need to have the right to abort. And luckily they do.

    • I never have anything against people who do everything and have issues or who are raped or have health problems. My concerns are completely for the people who create a child through irresponsibility and laziness and then want it gone.

      I agree that education and birth control availability are important.

  • Right on target. I am the one that has to live with the truth... no other.

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    • yep and the harsh truth is you took away an innocent life for your own selfish reasons.

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    • I can at least respect this opinion that you've shared.

    • @MasterAetos thank you... i can't have kids so i know how hard it would be not to have one.

  • I'm probably choices simply because it's my body and I'm the only one that has to live with the choices I make.. I'm not pro choice for late term abortion but things happen in life and the choice should be available.. I shouldn't have to fight or defend my right.. If I'm raped and get pregnant I shouldn't have to carry that child to term. I'm not saying it's right or wrong all I'm saying is I should have the right to choose..

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  • The bible says that the unborn is NOT alive, for ithas not yet recieved the breath of life. Because ancient idiots didn't know that air was made of particles, they thought it was a spirit.

    The bible condones and details laws regarding how to kill a woman's baby up to full term should the husband suspect she committed adultry. So if you're coming at this pro life thing from a religious aspect, go fuck yourself and read what it actually says.

    Its always going to be a gray area where brain developement in a fetus acquires consciousness, but my guess is it's somewhere around the cutoff time they've already legally decided, because they consulted medical proffesionals when they made the law not a two thousand year old book of ridiculous myths.

    And thats how I feel about it, what of it?😠

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    • Wow, first you insult people by telling them to go fuck themselfs and then you insult somebody religion calling it ridiculous myths. Please tell me where in Bible is that part about killing cuz I dunno?

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    • Well since there is no fact or words to convince me it is about miscarriage I don't believe it. I don't care about your anger and fact you are so bitter. I really don't. Belive what you want but you are talking here like somebody put recipe for abortion. I don't have need to explain to you what I believe or not cuz you are irrelevant to me and your opinion also.

    • @nadinatali what are you talking about? All you have to do is read what it says. there's your fact that the bible does condone a forced miscarriage (abortion) I know you'd much rather cherry pick and try to interpret it differently, it's still there and it still says what it says. I hope it haunts you that you're having to keep your mind from even going in a direction that would lead you to understanding how inconsistent and vile these man made stories are. Good luck.

  • Its not right. But do you really want to bring a child into this sick world? Is it not better to save a child from seeing all this. In 20 years time this world is going to be a great vicious fuckup

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  • I’ve had this one with my best friend for a while now😋

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  • That’s an interesting argument. Thank you for sharing!

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  • What about the bodily rights of a child who did not ask to be brought into this world, or to be brutally murdered within it's mothers womb? Mothers protect their children, not kill them.

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    • That’s my argument. The pre-born baby has the same rights as the born baby. If the born baby doesn’t get to live on the mother’s organs (ie kidney) then the pre-born doesn’t.

  • I've had 4 abortions so far, i love sex and do it raw. nobody will tell me what to do

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    • Nobody tells I guess. Cause everyone knows what you are. But don't spread STD, HIV and etc. Into this world.

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What Guys Said 38

  • In 99+ % of the cases it's consenting sex between the woman and man. First of all they could use contraception, the second is that with sex it's a big risk for pregnancy since it's how the human's reproduction system works and the third, it's possible to have none-penetrative sex or not have sex at all if you're so afraid of being pregnant. As a pro-lifer I'm a pro-choice supporting people to choose if they wants to have sex or not, but they've to take the consequences of it. If they're first insisting on having sex, become pregnant etc. then they should rather consider adoption than abortion if they don't want children. Most people are responsible for sex and the impregnation.

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    • Technically 14% are due to rape, but I'm with you on most of this. 74% could be prevented due to safe sex. These numbers are from the Guttmacher Institute for Reproductive Health.

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    • If you choose to have sex or to not invest in contraception, then you've taken a choice and a choice don't come without consequences. How you can't do cheating without consequences, it's how you can't have sex without potential consequences. If you cheats, your partner may be upset. If you have sex, pregnancy may happen. So simple is that!

    • If I cheat should I have my rights taken away?

  • I completely disagree, in that while i'm probably more 'pro choice' than average in terms of where I'd draw a line, I think personhood 100% trumps bodily autonomy. The analogy I'd draw is more that of conjoined twins, who can't simply announce they'd like to execute the other party if it would be convenient to them. In that case, yes, sometimes doctors opt to save one (and in the case of a medical emergency, since the mother is capable of autonomous survival while a fetus may not be depending on the stage, that would be relevant). But if nature conspires to shove someone into your body in a way that makes their survival conditional on maintaining it, I don't think your autonomy gives you the right to terminate that relationship.

    I'll also throw this one out: assuming you're willing to grant personhood, doesn't that give the right only to ask for the fetus to be removed from the uterus, but not to deny the fetus medical attention? So would you therefor replace abortion with transferal to some sort of incubator/artificial uterus as soon as that was viable, and ban abortion from that point? And if artificial uteruses in the near future can support fetuses from conception onward, you'd ban abortion entirely?

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    • Your argument seems strange to me. Do you think that the fetus owns it's mother's organs because it happens to be in there? I highly doubt that you do, but that's what your argument seems to indicate.
      I actually think that implanting a fertilized embryo into an artificial or other persons uterus is fine. Of course there's some issues around consent and practicality, but I'd be open to hearing a discussion on it. I don't know exactly where I'd land on that argument, but I think I'd land on the side of implantation.

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    • Here in Canada there are no laws on abortion at all. Old ones were struck down years ago and not replaced.

      I find people tend to act like pro choice means “in favour of legal first trimester abortions”. By than standard I’m a pro choice extremist because I’d push the line further back then that.

  • Nice argument I never heard it before. The second one doesn't really work tho because organs are not living beings but also sounds powerfull. But this your argument about right mother's body is only justifiable if woman was raped but what about the other cases? are you still pro-choice? "abortions are difficult topic for me as on one hand it kills children but on the other hand, it gives women a choice"

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    • I think you misunderstood. We value bodily autonomy so much that even after a person's death we won't take actions against their body even though it could help another person.

      Secondly I never mentioned rape... Regardless of the circumstances that lead up to the fetus using the woman's body to sustain it's own life the woman has a right to deny it access to her body.

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    • Yeah you are right about English being my second language and I agree with you completely. And that argument is actually really good. Would maybe use it in debate league

    • Awesome.

  • The libtard believes that:
    this sentient is human and must be protected:
    http://s9.picofile.com/file/8323987200/baby.jpeg

    but this sentient is not human and can be brutally dismembered and dumped in the trash:
    s8.picofile.com/file/8323987250/hqdefault.jpg

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    • They call it humanity and human rights!

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    • And Mohammad was a pupil of Baheira, a Syrian Arianist monk. A Christian.

    • @jacquesvol All Muslims believe in those prophets. But Quran says that the religion that the Jews are practicing now, has nothing to do with the religion those prophets used to preach. That means they have altered the original scripture. I don't if you have read Talmud or not, but just get one, and open it, read through it, you know, we can't say those things came from God.

  • That's a nice thought, but I'm a pro-life thinker through and through. Also, an abortion eliminates the choice of the fetus, which by that stage, has already developed into something resembling a human baby. According to statistics, women in America have had abortions during their 21st week of pregnancy. Would you like to know what the fetus would like at that stage? At 7 weeks, the fetus looks very much humanoid, at 21 weeks? It will develop defined features. Everybody likes to talk about how it's the woman's body and therefore her choice, that's a nice sentiment and normally I would agree but this is literally life and death. I won't sugarcoat it for anyone, abortion is murder. It's the willful taking of a human life but people create excuses to pretend that the fetus isn't a life yet because it hasn't been born. I won't pretend to deny that abortion in all cases can't be justified, if you're a teenage girl and you were raped, I can understand and I won't judge you for making that decision but if you just had a one night of willful sex and you're, I don't know, 25 years old. That's on you.

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    • What about the many contraceptives women have access too?

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    • Yes, yes it is. What if a family member needed a donation and you were a suitable donor? Would you just say, "Well tough, I'm keeping my organs." How selfish and evil is that?

    • It may depend on the circumstances, but whether or not I would is different from whether or not I should have a legal obligation to do so.

  • I don't know how I feel about abortion, on one hand its killing babies which is good, on the other its giving women a choice which is bad.
    I'm not sure where I first heard that joke

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    • Next thing you know women will be asking for the right to speak in church. Absolute decadence.

    • I know. We can drive, we can vote. What more do these broads want? 😂

    • This was actually pretty hilarious!

  • Except pregnancy is largely a choice these days with a plethora of birth control methods and plan B. You make it sound as if pregnancy is random misfortune. Having unprotected sex is an invitation for the fetus to live and grow in their body unless they're completely ignorant to their own biology.

    In the end, it's probably for the best if these people don't procreate, so them killing their own children is a win-win after all.

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    • Birth control isn't always effective. It's actually quite ineffective if you think about it.

      That said if you're not going to try and impose that a woman remain pregnant despite her wishes then I don't mind. Whether you find it to be immoral or a bad idea doesn't bother me. Whether or not you try to

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    • @jacquesvol "Having kids is for the poor and stupid"

    • @Celtero
      Why do people even bother using condoms? Many men don't want to use them or they use them sloppily. FYI: infosexwork.be/.../artikel.php

  • So, where do you draw the line between a fetus/ clump of cells and a person? At birth?

    So 10 minutes before birth it doesn't count?

    The fetus in the mother's womb has a nerve system and can feel things like - pain , like when it's being chopped up and vacuumed out, just for no other reason that the mother didn't keep her legs closed

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    • The whole point of the bodily rights argument is that whether or not a fetus is a person is irrelevant... Did you bother to read it or no? It's a really short one I promise, but that was covered quite well.

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    • The embryo

    • @859David Abortion is NOT about nearly 9 months after sex. More about 12-15 weeks after sex.

  • “I think that one of the most powerful arguments that I heard on this subject is that if we force a woman to give up her right to self autonomy in preference of the fetus then we are actually granting women less rights than we grant corpses. In my country a person has to consent to be an organ donor, and if they are not an organ donor we cannot take their organs after their death regardless of how many people it could help.”

    I see whether to donate organs or not as more of a right while a person was alive and becomes a contractual arrangement upon death. The corpse doesn’t choose. Even if it is a right, women, or alive people don’t have ‘less rights’ than corpses. Corpses can’t legally marry, vote, own property, etc. So that seems obviously factually incorrect. 3 is greater than a hypothetical 1 or correct me if I'm wrong. But even if corpses had all the rights and we were all slaves to them, I don’t think those arbitrary rules would make abortion morally or ethically wrong or right. I wouldn’t base what I think is right or wrong on current laws (we all remember slavery).

    Also organ donation and living in a womb are different so it’s not a consistent argument. Women aren’t ‘give up her uterus.’ The baby doesn’t put the uterus in their body like the recipient of an organ donor.

    I don’t know if there is a correct answer to this, but saying a child doesn’t have the right to develop in the womb starts sounding a little wacky to me. I feel like this can get into whether we have to legally take care of children in general, because that forced work could be seen as slavery.

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    • 1.) This seems like a semantics argument. The point was specifically in regards to self autonomy. Whether you want to call it the "corpse's" right or the person's right who existed before death is not really relevant. The point is (and I thought it clear although perhaps not) is that we do not even take the organs of corpses unless the person consented in life. Even though those organs could help a dozen people.

      2.) Whether or not you think abortion moral in some cases, immoral in others, moral in all, or moral in none isn't really relevant to me. What I care about, and what this Take was about is what rights we plan to legally protect. I think that abortion is legal for good reason, and I would not want someone to try to take away my organs without my consent, thus I will not accept legislation that leads to that for others.

      3.) All analogies break down at some point, because they're analogies. The point is that women are saying "I do not want this person here", and I say they--

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    • 1. I thought you think the most powerful argument is that corpses have more rights than women? That is clearly not true though so I wanted to clarify that. There is an obvious reason why organs need consent. Technically I don't even think a person can consent to organ donation alone. They pretty much need family confirmation as well. But back to the point, the reason is of course that with our historically Christian society, there's cultural roots to believing organs in corpses are necessary for afterlife. Besides that, when organs are taken, the person is usually still alive (so organs can be used), and having consent protects people from doctors making an error of their prognosis. So while organs can help others, there are potential downsides to the dead.

    • 1.) Perhaps there was some confusion then, I apparently wrote this section too poorly. The most powerful argument is that of bodily rights, one of the most powerful examples is that of giving a living person less of a particular right than that of a dead person. Does that make it more clear? In America (at least) we do not take the organs of a dead person, even though they could save many lives, unless they had previously given us consent. However, many people argue that women should be forced to "give up" the rights to her organs without her consent in preference of some other person.

      Does that help to clarify my position?

  • As a libertarian on just about all domestic issues, people can do whatever they want in the parameters of the law as long as it doesn't affect me directly or personally. That includes not using MY tax dollars. I may disagree morally, but law is law so I abstain legally... as long as "your body" and "your choice" also includes "your money". After all, I abort billions of potential lives almost every day and I don't ask the government to pay me for it...

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    • So if we jim crow laws back? Would you keep quiet and say the law is law?🤔

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    • I've been in actual real-life, first-hand, personal situations where I was on both sides of the argument. Along with most things in life, it should be case by case, and not painted with one big brush.

    • Rights are generally accepted in the broad sense.

  • For anyone against abortion please read this comment. Are you willing to let a tick live on you for 9 months? how about a leech? tapeworm? guinea fish? toothpick fish? lamprey eel? literally any living thing that consumes energy of it's host to grow and live? if you answered no to any of the above you are a hypocrite because removing it is abortion. *drops microphone*

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    • by the way good take I like the spin you put on it and the view you looked at it from. Logical emotionless the best way to look at problems that are controversial.

    • I would use PREVENTION to avoid those things in the first place like a normal person... Also, a tiny human is not an animal. We can hunt, slaughter, and eat animals. Long pig is usually frowned upon for people to kill...

  • There is no comparison, someone not giving up their organs does not directly cause someones death. But abortion does. Complete redundant argument

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    • How do you figure. People are dying that could otherwise live if I gave them my organs. I choose not to do so. An abortion isn't the killing of a fetus,, it's the termination of a pregnancy, the fact that a fetus can't live on it's own is a different matter.

  • Personally I still think forcing women to have unwanted babies is better than killing them. I think of it this way. Let’s say two women get pregnant. One aborts and the other has the kid, but when her boy is five years old she decides she doesn’t want to have him and kills him. The first woman is thought of as being perfectly normal, whereas the second one is considered a murderer. But in my mind they are no different, in that they are taking away another life because it inconveniences them. I think that this is wrong. However, I don’t think abortion rates should be brought down purely by banning it, because that would ignore the fact that a lot of women who abort live in dire poverty, so I think instead the government should focus on help for young families, especially young mothers, so abortion isn’t needed anymore.

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    • I find your analogy to be a false equivalence. Do you think it murder that I don't give up my organs to other people?

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    • Yeah you too. Interesting conversation

    • Comparing a life you created and forced to be dependent on you before you decide to kill it is not the same as a comparison involving someone not dependent on you.

  • Should I have the right to take my child who is an infant and decide that I no longer want them in my house and leave them on the sidewalk outside my property where they are likely to die?

    By willfully engaging in behavior that makes a person dependent on you to survive you forfeit your ethical right to certain actions that will kill them. There is an implicit agreement there. This is ethically different than refusing to take an action to save someone when their current situation is unrelated to my previous actions that your organ donation analogy relies on.

    Organ donation is a few steps removed from even that since I can't say for certain that possessing two kidneys currently myself is causing someone, somewhere, to die.

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    • All analogies break down at some point. The organ donation was simply that, an analogy to demonstrate that we don't force people to give up their organs for the benifit of others, even if they're dead.

      Similarly, your analogy breaks down because a person being in your house is different than a person being inside you and attaching themselves to your organs.

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    • @jacquesvol I don't think sperm have the right to life since they are a part of my body. I think it's hard to argue that fetuses aren't independent beings residing in someone else's body since they're genetically distinct and genetically complete developing humans. I think conception is the only sensible place to grant a right to life. For people that believe right to life should be conveyed at birth, a stage of brain development, or to eggs and sperms, I'd just have to agree to disagree.

    • @LikeARiver you can't force women to put their organs at the disposal of a lump of cells if they don't want it.

  • Becoming pregnant is something that is totally in the control of the woman. Women don’t just fall pregnant; in other words, you can’t just become “unluckily” pregnant and then have to deal with it. With that in mind, why not begin to take responsibility 1 step sooner. Instead of becoming responsible while you’re already pregnant, why not do it a little sooner and either don’t have sex, or have protected sex? Why must women be so selfish as to not only want to have irresponsible sex, but also play god and be able to take life?

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    • Not all sex is consensual. Of the sex that is, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Many women utilize "protection" but still find themselves pregnant. Lastly, the circumstances that results in a fetus living off of them are irrelevant. No person has a right to another person's body without their continued consent.

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    • @My-Shangri-La If you don't want abortions, then ONLY knock up girls who WANT YOUR kids.

    • @jacquesvol this is old, why do you keep coming back?

  • Well what you are saying is cutting off all debate for what is a more complex issue than black or white. A fetus will inevitably develop into a child if all things go well which most of the time they do, an organ will die with the person and can be used when a person dies yes, however that organ isn't a whole other human life.

    Then if you live in the US comes the Victims Of Violence Act which states if a woman who is pregnant is murdered (and the fetus) that would be double manslaughter and rightfully so, would you wish that to be single manslaughter instead of double? Also, if you kill a person, the organs aren't considered another life, the fetus is.

    Now you argue in terms of consent and the thing is, the woman and man who had sex consented to having sex and the consequences of having sex. You are free to choose but you aren't free from the consequences of your actions. Abortion isn't a right and is killing a child.

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    • Does a born child have a right to it's mother's organs?

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    • It is the mother's child, of course a mother should allow the mother to "use her organs" it doesn't matter how you put this. A mother is a terrible mother if she doesn't allow her child to "use her organs".

    • That's your opinion and I don't much care about that. I think I already said this, but I don't care what you think about the morality of the decision, I care about what you try to force other people to do with their own bodies.
      My mother thought that it was evil and immoral to let children play with yu-gi-oh cards because there was a character named "the dark magician" or something, and she was liberal compared to many of my friends' parents.

      That's fine, I don't much care, but as soon as you start trying to legislate that some people have a right to other people's bodies (regardless of whether or not they consent) I take issue.

  • I agree. Women have the right to choose what happens with their bodies.

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    • You mean like choosing to create a human they could have avoided creating only to kill it later? Hmmm... That's like saying women have the right to drink and drive and they have the right to not go to jail when they kill someone...

    • @wolfcat87 get out of here with that false equivalency.

  • With an argument like that I'm sure you are in full support of post-natal abortion. Right?

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    • How do you possibly figure that?
      Let's first ask... What did I write? What's my argument? Did you read it?

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    • I'm not sure what delusions you're under, but this is incredibly pointless.

    • You can say I'm delusional all you want but I'm still waiting for proof that "this is one of the most popular arguments for abortion". You are radical and your arguments are beyond weak.

      This is pointless, you were right about that. You can play stupid all you want. I'm done here.

  • The fetus's body is NOT the woman's body.
    Once we get that cleared up, we can talk.

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    • Who said it was? Did you read the argument? It's super short and should have cleared that up.

  • I agree. Women should be able to kill their children if they don't want them.

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    • If it's killing to deny a person a right to your organs then I'm killing every person on the organ donor list by denying them my organs.

    • I agree

    • not saving lives is not equal to intentionally kill them

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