Conservatives Take Dating, Marriage, and Child Rearing More Seriously

[ladsin]

@EmbraceThePain recently asked a question here Do you think conservative men have better family values, take dating, marriage, and having children more seriously as opposed to non-conservative men? to which I wrote a rather long response so I figured I’d just turn it into a MyTake too.

I’m not aware of any particular study ie demographic research that broaches the subject so I’m purely guessing here, but I think that there could be something to the idea that more conservative men (on average) take dating, marriage, and child rearing more seriously than their more liberal peers. I think this because of several reasons of which I’ll briefly list a few.
1) Conservatives tend to espouse a desire to “conserve” traditional norms in regards to dating and marriage. Is the belief that dating is for the purpose of finding a spouse and marriage should be between one man and woman “till death do we part”.
2) Conservatism is correlated with higher rates of religiosity and inversely liberalism is correlated with irreligiosity. This would understandably lead to a gap in certain norms as the largest religions have explicit regulations against divorce.
3) Conservatives have long been against the invention and promulgation of contraceptives and other birth control methods ie abortifacents. Most recently many conservatives have loosened their animus towards these birth control methods due to a shift in focus towards abortion itself. That said the vast majority of the anti-birth control movement finds itself on the conservative side. Ie Catholics still believe birth control is a sin and the famed mother Theresa spent much of her life fighting against the spread of reproductive control to places like Calcutta, India, Ireland, etc. In contrast liberals have fairly steadily been in favor of reproductive planning. I suppose the question of “do conservatives take having children more seriously” is then a matter of perspective. As a more liberal pro-family planning guy I consider my position to take having children more seriously in that you shouldn’t have children simply because you can’t withhold your sex drive, but rather you should carefully plan out when and how you want kids. A more conservative fellow may think that because these methods (barrier contraceptives and abortifacents) prevent the birth of a baby it’s taking our duty to propagate less seriously (or something to that effect help clarify if you’ve got a better version of the conservative argument here).

As for the broader question of “family values” in general I’d need more specifics on which values. If it’s on the relative value of ones family I struggle with seeing any reason for a notable difference between conservatives and liberals. If it’s on the value of siring kids and having a family (ie getting married) then there’s probably a notable distinction.

[dantetheexplorer]

This is a very American-centric view of looking at things.
Conservatives are like x, y, z.
Liberals are like a, b, c.
As if everyone fits into these little boxes neatly, cleanly.

Real life - at least real life outside the United States - is rarely that neat, rarely that clean.

For example, you want to talk about family and hard work and religion.
I can point you to many parts of East Asia, where people just aren't religious at all - they're more spiritual, if anything.
And yet, family is considered the number one priority for many East Asian families - no matter how bad your father is, no matter how they treat you, he is still your father, you are still his son or daughter. No matter how harsh your mother treats you, she is still the person who gave birth to you, she is still the person who brought you into this world.

You want to talk about hard work?
Children in that part of the world study like mad just to get into a good school.
I know this because I remember all the times I fell asleep in after-school classes and I check my watch and see that it's 11.30 pm, and I had another 30 minutes to go before I could finish my class and go home to sleep.
And yet, ours wasn't a religious family at all.

Our parents sacrificed time and money on us, making sure that we attend after-school private classes, piano and violin lessons, get on swim teams, go for extra "social" classes, learn 5 different languages with our future in mind...
Tiger Mother isn't fiction for many people.
And yet, with all that, not very religious at all.

Conclusion:
People rarely fit neatly, cleanly into the little boxes like we imagine they do.
People aren't items, people aren't products.
Labels count for little when it comes to humans.

[ladsin]

I tried to use the terms as broadly as possible ie “conservatives like to conserve traditional norms about dating and marriage.”

Many of those eastern countries while not highly religious can still be really conservative in the “desire to conserve tradition” sense.

[Girther10]

@dantetheexplorer-there are some who might say the example of yourself is the exception, rather than the rule. Or cherry picking for examples to counter the argument. The point is, generally speaking, over the long haul, from a seat in the balcony, conservatives are more likely to have traditional family values.

[SkipStop]

You are correct. Conservatives pay more attention to preserving family values and the importance of family. Conservative men are the most masculine who strive for success and survival of their family. And women play their own role such as supporting the husband and filling in that gap he does not have time to do. It's a team effort. Yes, most conservatives are more religious. They find it peaceful, it raises their hopes and dreams which makes them happier. It's the best lifestyle. Liberals are pretty much the opposite. They don't care much about family. They just want to do whatever they want regardless if it's good for others or society overall. And they don't realize that they are actually setting themselves up for unhappiness later in life.

[ladsin]

Meh thanks for the response but I find it rather silly, or at least presumptuous. I see no good reason to believe that liberals by-and-large value their families less than their conservative counterparts. They may differ in their desire to produce offspring, but that doesn’t seem to be the same thing to me.

[GigiMary]

I agree. As a conservative engaged to a conservative, we both have already talked over raising our future children religiously, morally, empathetically, with an emphasis on the value of hard work and persistence, facilitated by yours truly, their housewife mother.

Also, to both of us dating was definitely about finding someone to marry. That certainly holds true. As for contraceptives? I disagree, they can play an important role in preventing abortion, which plays into the next part: We both strongly support the Right to Life. You have a right to live from conception until natural death.

A lot of liberals I know tell their kids that they are uniquely special and that everything will come to them if they just follow their passion. What kind of parenting is that? Your kid isn't special unless they put in the work to stand out - in any field.

[ladsin]

Thanks

[NyfikenSyd]

As a liberals, to both of us dating was definitely about finding someone to marry. We both have already talked over raising our future children non-religiously, morally, empathetically, with an emphasis on the value of hard work and persistence, facilitated equally by both parents.

Honestly this article is bullshit. Liberalism isn't about not caring or less serious, the same way as conservatism isn't about being strict or more demanding.

You will equally find great, and horrible, parents in both groups as well as dating partners and spouses.

[genericname85]

i happen to have done a small scale study on political spectrum affiliation and life satisfaction and i also happen to know a bit about family sociology.

i can tell you that the number of children you have, the age at which you choose to have children and the individual financial and social setting the parents are in is far greater in impact than political spectrum affiliation.
this is a highly complex topic too. for example we know that people who are more left on the spectrum are less satisfied with their lifes overall. people who are less satisfied with their life do have less children but people that do have less children are more concerned with their childrens rearing. however all that does still not help at all defining ghe issue that you opened with how do you define "good" child rearing, cause obviously that is normatively subjective.

you may for example personally not like patchwork families as a conservative but they will perform much better than single parents when it comes to noted behavioral issues with their children.

it can be said that children are most likely to have a similar lifestyle their parents have so children from patchwork families will likely have a patchwork family down the line. however slappig the label "good" or "bad" on this is highly problematic. it's just opinion.

you see i have some experience with actually scientifically trying to answer similar questions to this. so i can tell you from my personal experience why political affiliation is not important in this field.

so you would go ahead and define your measure of "quality" of child rearing. you could do that multiple ways. you could for example take fertility rates, establishing that families having more children are better and then you see what correlates with the number of children.

or you say you wanna look at the probability of children having behavioral issues in their school life at a later age.

or you could go by the childrens income or educational level and so ond so forth. as log as you stay bivariate and correlate that with their political spectrum affiliation, you may get some highly significant correlations however once you take the known determinants of success or wellbeing into accout that i first mentioned: parental income, parental education level, parental marital status, number of children and so on, you'll notice how the significance level of the political spectrum slowly vanishes, meaning it doesn't explain the variance in the indicator of quality that you chose to use. that's why this is classically not done in social science. cause we already know the variance in your indicating variable is caused by and large by other things.

that becomes slightly different, when you look at religion. we know for example that children from religious backrounds don't perform well when it comes to educational level and income later down the line compared to nonreligiously raised children. however there's no correlation between religiousness and political spectrum affiliation.

[genericname85]

ugh it's a very hard topic cause there's lots of normative shit that you have to break into terms that you can actually research. anyway:

TL;DR: political affiliation has so little significance in this regard, that we usually don't even use it as a controll variable... and that says quite a lot.

[coralee]

Completely disagree.
1. What makes you think liberals don't use dating as a way to find a partner? Some people date for fun but I don't see why that is negative. Two people who care about each other wanting to spend time together is A OKAY in my mind. Very few people conservative or otherwise are with one partner their entire lives. Also I don't get what the one man, one woman part has to do with anything. Plenty of gay people get married and stay together.

2. Plenty of religious people get divorced. Henry the 8th was far more religious then anyone you know and look how many times he got divorced. Statistically speaking people who get married young are much more likely to get divorced then people who wait. Also statistically speaking religious people tend to get married earlier. A+B=C

3. This is your worst point. What does disagreement with birth control have to do with taking child rearing seriously? Not using birth control and popping out more kids then you can financially, or emotionally care for is the epitome of bad parenting. Quality over quantity any day of the week.

[ladsin]

Thanks for the response. I’ll tackle your objections, but I think the most important thing to clarify is that this isn’t a condemnation of liberals or a celebration of conservatives. It’s just my observation about possibly differing values between two groups of people. I’ve not stated or implied whether I think it’s a good or bad thing with the exception of my position on family planning. That said let’s discuss it.

1) it’s true that few people make the life long “till death do us part” monogamy work, but my contention here was that it may be the case (and some recent evidence I found seems to bear this out) the proportion of those who do stick through “till death do us part” are more likely to be conservative than liberal (~55-45% if I recall correctly which is statistically significant).

2) Again this is a question of proportionality. The biggest case against my position that I can see here is that because religious/ conservative persons get married far more frequently than their liberal/ non-religious counterparts they’re also more likely to get divorced. But once the phenomenon is looked into more the non-religious divorce rate is higher, they just don’t get divorced as often because they’re not married as often.

3) I’m pretty sure you severely misread me here. I explicitly stated that I’m in favor of contraceptives as a form of family planning, and I view my position to take child rearing more seriously than people who just have kids because they can’t wrap it up and want sex (ie Catholics).

[AlienParasite]

I don't find that necessarily true. I still remember that in my country right wing party used to oppose to divorce whenever was possible. In 2005 they made a change in the divorce law to simplify the process, and of course right wing party claimed that was wrong and that they were against making divorce of easy access. I remember seeing how that same year someone on TV analized marital status of each member of both parties and how there were more divorced politicians in the conservative party than in the socialist party.

In the end one thing is what people say and another is what people do.

Maybe I would agree that in general right wingers would give more importance to marriage specially if they are religious, in spite of the anecdote with right wing in my country. However, I believe taking fully seriously a relationship or taking seriously raising your kids has to do with values that don't belong exclusively to right wingers or left wingers.

[ladsin]

Thanks for the response. That makes sense. Which country?

[AlienParasite]

The country is Spain

[ladsin]

Very cool. Thanks

[Oram52]

From statistics conservative states had higher divorce rates. Suppose it could be true or likely true because of adhering to traditions that they still have traditional mindset on dating, marriage and kids.

However millennials are hardly conservative, not to mention every poll suggesting millennials are not socially conservative. So I don't see it holding true. Hooking up is not uncommon in many conservative states now.

Liberals and conservatives may have different views on marriage, sex and child rearing. It doesn't mean though kids grow up any different. Students from conservative states are going to universities and demanding safe spaces sooo.

I do think though conservatives emphasizing personal responsibility is good thing.

[ladsin]

It’s true that at the state level that bears out, but when you look at the county or individual level it doesn’t. My presumption is that D states tend to be more affluent and affluent people tend to be less likely to divorce and more likely to marry.

[Anonymous]

For your second point: evidence seems to show the opposite, whether religion approves or not.

According to Pew Research (https://www. pewforum. org/religious-landscape-study/marital-status/divorcedseparated/), evangelical Christians have the highest divorce rate of any religious group. One thing to note is that the study only evaluates based on religion, not political views.

But if being highly religious does tend to equal political conservatism, then this study shows that liberals would likely have a lower separation rate.

[ladsin]

I’m fuming. I just wrote a long response, but this damned site booted me before I could send it so you’re going to be stuck with a truncated version. While it’s true that your citation shows that a divorced person is more likely to be Christian than their non-religious peer you’re forgetting an important aspect, that’s namely that no religious folks get married at significantly lesser rates. No marriage=no divorce. www.pewresearch.org/.../

That said the 2017 Americans Family Survey seems to indicate that Republicans are 5% less likely to be divorced than their Democrat peers (34-39% R:D with 42% of independents)

[ladsin]

*non-religious folks

[Opinion Owner]

The link I had originally posted actually read "divorce and separation." They don't directly correlate the two surveys that we referenced, unfortunately.

I had never really looked at divorce / separation rates based on political affiliation until seeing your post. I personally can't say that I've ever observed anyone in my life actually end a relationship over it. I've seen and heard plenty about finances, drugs / alcohol, fidelity, differences in parenting styles and dangerous situations and physical abuse, but not what party you're affiliated with.

I personally doubt that it makes much difference. But for the sake of argument, maybe who's in the White House makes a difference -- if it even makes a difference? In 2014, Democrats had a lower divorce rate, apparently.

www.huffpost.com/entry/divorce-study_n_4639430

divorce.lovetoknow.com/...epublicans_vs._Democrats

[ladsin]

That would certainly be an interesting case. Why would you think that who’s in the White House matters?

Certainly there are far more pressing matters that dictate whether a couple gets divorced, but presumably the party that at least in principle finds divorce bad would engage in it less. That HuffPo article, and the research it’s based on are rather disengenuous in my estimation. Why did they look at the state level and not the county or individual level? My presumption is that because when you get to the county level it’s slightly in favor of R, and when you get to individual level moreso.

[Opinion Owner]

"That would certainly be an interesting case. Why would you think that who’s in the White House matters?"

It's purely conjecture. In 2014, we had a Democrat in the White House. Now we have a Republican. It's probably just be a coincidence.

"Certainly there are far more pressing matters that dictate whether a couple gets divorced, but presumably the party that at least in principle finds divorce bad would engage in it less."

Although I've heard more argument for gender equality, women's rights, etc. from the left, I don't recall anyone actually saying that they favored increasing divorce or separation rates.

"That HuffPo article, and the research it’s based on are rather disengenuous in my estimation. Why did they look at the state level and not the county or individual level? My presumption is that because when you get to the county level it’s slightly in favor of R, and when you get to individual level moreso."

I don't know. But for statistics, you get a more accurate result for more people / responses polled. They were probably just going on records from voter registration commissions and matching them to court divorce records.

[ladsin]

The first and last are the same study if I recall correctly about the state level. I’m only aware of the 2017 one about individual divorces by political leaning.

The second is largely true although there are some who state things like “divorce your republican husbands” I’m not aware of anyone who’s directly called for an end to marriage with the exception of the hyper feminists who consider marriage to be a patriarchal institution which needs to be brought down. That said I find that to be telling for this conversation. On the far left there’s people arguing for no marriage at all, and on the far right people arguing that people shouldn’t be allowed to divorce. That presumably has some meaning for the more moderates on both sides.

[TheWaterisFine]

I feel as most conservative men are DRAWN toward family, children, careers, dating, etc because it's the "right thing to do" But are the first ones to stray or betray family units. This isn't always the case though.

[ladsin]

Why do you think that?

[Hypnos0929]

I mean it makes sense. They want the family to make them feel like a man but they don't actually want the family.

[TheWaterisFine]

Sadly, I've been with my fair share of married men 🤷🏾‍♀️

[Hypnos0929]

That's not too bad, I've been with women in serious relationships too. I do feel bad but I make it a point not to stay long if they aren't willing to end it

[SentientBrick]

@TheWaterisFine actually all men are drawn to family, children, careers and dating. Not just conservatives. Its sorta key to how the human race keeps existing. Its a biological drive, not a half hearted moral argument.

[Jamie05rhs]

"Sadly, I've been with my fair share of married men 🤷🏾‍♀️". What the hell? Then it's YOUR fault!

[TheWaterisFine]

You aren't wrong.

[ronaldo75]

This is a huge oversimplification as many conservative men are notorious cheats and womanizers but there is some truth to this. Literally EVERY single leftist/liberal and even Marxist woman I've been with is a total mess in her views on relationships, family and dating. They're a mess. If you want a family with a liberal woman get ready for 10 years of indecisiveness before they decide to get pregnant. I find left-leaning American tend to worry about what the "leftist feminist hive-mind" will think of their life choices before deciding. Conservative women don't do this as much where as leftist women need social approval on a life decision before making it,

[ladsin]

It would certainly be an oversimplification if my case was that all conservatives think/ do X, and all liberals think/do Y. But that’s not the case. I’m talking about the possibility of their being statistically noticeable differences in some values and behaviors between two groups of people and an exploration of possibly explanations. Completely different from the straw man many people seem to think I’ve made. My guess is that many had their perspectives about myTake set by the title and that colored their perception of the rest of myTake and prevented them for just reading and taking it objectively.

[LoU_Hades]

It's matter of personal responsibility and less of political affiliation. I must admit that I don't understand the division in conservatives and liberals according to US standards. I don't think I could add something useful to this specific discussion

[ladsin]

I’m trying to use the terms in the most generalized way that I can. I think even in Europe it’s still the case that “conservatives” are more likely to hold onto traditional values in regards to marriage, dating, religion, etc. The only major difference to my knowledge is that European conservatives, by-and-large are far more liberal than their American counterparts.

[LoU_Hades]

Yes it's true, but our liberals are more conservative. A liberal woman doesn't want to become a single mother and a conservative man puts his dick sometimes in another woman than his wife.
It's matter of general nihilism and individual hedonism of people, not political views like I mentioned before.
You're picking the wrong ingredients for this take, it's lack of moral compass and social isolation of people that destroys families and makes dating to never ending pump and dump show.

[ladsin]

Oh, well by nature women tend to be more conservative leaning. The trend of women being more liberal is a relatively modern phenomena.

[talloak]

All of your examples are theoretical. They may well be true (likewise, I've seen no studies about this). However, when it comes to legislators, the record is public: Conservative leaders are very much against family values in actual practice. They oppose every bill that Democrats have proposed to benefit families that I'm aware of. They oppose paid maternity and paternity leave. They oppose access to healthcare for poor and middle-class families. They oppose Headstart, school lunch programs and most every other federal programs aimed at promoting children. They cut food stamps. They constantly push for tax cuts that benefit the wealthiest with little or no benefit to others. They opposed payroll tax cuts because these don't benefit the wealthy. What family practices do Conservatives support? Separating children and babies from illegal immigrants and putting them in cages! Conservatives are very much ANTI-family values.

[ladsin]

Mm. Well since then I’ve been pointed to some research which appears to bolster some of my hypotheses. Namely individual republicans are more likely to remain married than their democrat counterparts. That said some research may negate this, but I don’t think so. That’s namely that democrat states have lower levels of divorce.

[talloak]

You are probably right that individual Republicans are probably more serious about these things than individual Democrats. And I admire that because I take all those things seriously too. But the Republican party leadership more exploits this by focusing exclusively on issues that require no sacrifice (or taxes) such as abortion, immigration and LGBT rights.

[ladsin]

Well I’m not a republican, but due to the massive shift in the Democratic Party I’ve gone from being a left leaning libertarian to a moderately right leaning libertarian in the past few years. I’m a bisexual atheist and as such don’t buy into much of republican politics and rhetoric.

[RegularTK421]

Generally speaking, I think they do. We can cherry pick individual examples that prove otherwise all day long, but social conservatives, ( not necessarily political conservatives,) do prioritize decency, family, morals and their religious values above even their own desires. Contemporaries or secularists are more independent minded. Being independent minded can also mean being more self centered in general, and living a life that caters to their own desires rather than that of others.

[ladsin]

Thanks, always good when somebody realizes I’m not making sweeping generalizations.

[_SOARER_]

I saw his question to. It seemed obvious that conservative men take all those things more seriously

Most conservatives are in fact Christians.
I am a christian. I take dating, marriage and children wayyy more seriously than my secular peers.
My peers just want to fuck women and have fun.

I put a greater purpose to things.
Without God you can't raise a family properly. You can't understand anything properly.

Secular=Bad parent
Christian=Good parent.

obviously there will be exceptions but secular parents have kids who dont even know what their gender is haha

[ladsin]

Meh, I find that rather presumptuous. I know of many ostensibly Christian parents who beat their kids and have gotten them addicted to drugs. In fact I know far more Christians who’ve done this than atheists just by virtue of the demographics where I live.

That said I see no reason to believe that Christians love their children any less despite what I’ve seen. Likewise I see no reason to believe that lefties, or skeptics, love their children less.

[AtomicMuseliBar]

No they fuckin aren't. The whole permanent marriage idea is harmful. It keeps people that are bad for each other together. Conservative parents are unlikely to treat their child well if they don't conform to what they consider normal. Being anti-birth control, anti-abortion and anti-sex education leads to more unplanned pregnancies and people being stuck with a child they're unable to properly raise. Forcing your religion on your child is unhelpful. When they deviate from it, they fill bad and ashamed of themselves. Your child should not feel like that, especially if you punish the child for not following religious rules, like in the case of my girlfriends.

[adidas0169]

Most conservatives instill morals and values in there families. we dont expect things to be handed to us nor do we want OUR government to give things away for free or take our hard earned money to others that didn't earn it. there isn't as much violence from our kids that are raised that way bc they know they will get more then just "what you did was very bad of you, you need to go to your room and think about what you did was wrong. we raise our boys to be MEN and our girls to be WOMEN. I will take my conservative values and views over any this horseshit that parents are teaching.

[Pegases]

I'm curious, what specific values do you feel are common among conservatives? Next, what is your source for your claim that conservative children are less violent? lmao this stuff is rich

[cth96190]

Yes, conservative men do take such things more seriously.
Conservative men and women do not put on vagina hats and/or screech that abortion is a wonderful thing and that they kill thrir babies.
Those who have not seen it, would find it instructive to watch the video that Alex Jones (infowars. com) has shot of pro-abortion counter protestors who disrupted pro-life events.

[ladsin]

Sure there are cooky leftists and I’d concede that the left as a whole is getting cookier (just look at who they’ve got for presidential candidates). That said I find it disengenuous to paint the whole left with that broad a brush when the same is what the left so often does to the right.

[Wewladdy]

Studies show right leaning men are more masculine, make more money on average, and just live better more productive lives. Plus they don't sleep around with anyone, do drugs, etc... they're conservative. They're grown up mentally and emotionally so don't vote nor live 100% based on emotion.

[ladsin]

I’m aware of some of those issues although I find them largely debatable and dependent on demographic. For example, most gays are democrat/ lib. Gays tend to make more money than their straight counterparts. So in part though it may be the case that R’s make more money as a whole than D’s it’s not painting a full picture as Dems happen to cater to lower SES groups at least in principle.

[Sweatyotterr]

It’s cause they are more religious and value family so it makes sense not really a surprise

[ladsin]

Explain what that last portion about “valuing family” means to you.

[Massageman]

Yes. They are more likely to take responsibility for maintaining and improving their lives ( whether you are talking about jobs, procreation, families, etc) rather than whine that the government should be giving them everything on the proverbial golden platter.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well statistically conservatives are more likely to be married (and happily so) and statistically have more kids. So that would indicate they are more family prone.

[Cherokeehp]

Conservatives and their traditional values are hindering progress. Just cause you do something the same exact way for a really long time, does not make it the best way.

[Girther10]

But what it does mean is that it is a very dependable way, and so doing otherwise is a risk many would rather not take.

[Girther10]

Yes, conservative are hindering progressives, not necessarily progress. Progress is subjective on many levels.
I find that many times they take a good idea, that seems to be working, like #metoo, and push push push until they have overreached, and the outcome is the Kavanaugh attempted public lynching. ”Believe All Women” is the overreach in that case.

[Cherokeehp]

@Girther10

[Cherokeehp]

@Girther10 I can see how MeToo thing has gone too far at some points. But before the whole MeToo movement it was like “Believe None of the Women”. Women have been complaining about sexual assault and being ignored for so long that a lot of women don’t even report it. I wish it didn’t have to be an extreme.

[ladsin]

Who was ignoring rape claims? If you were to go back to the 1980s sure. In the 2000s though? No way. Sure they’re hard cases to prosecute, but just because we don’t have a lot of convictions for murder doesn’t mean we ignore it.

[Girther10]

@Cerrokeehp- so how do we keep progressive in the future from this overeach that spoils the good that has occurred as a result of whatever movement is in play? I, too, “wish” it didn’t have to be an extreme.

[Girther10]

Also, I don’t think it was ever “Believe none of the women” , but more like a sense of due process. I have been the victim of false identification, it’s not a fun place to be (not for a sex related crime, it was petty larceny).

[Girther10]

Now, in this hyper charged #metoo environment, I fear there will be an uptick in false claims, like the smollett debacle.

[Girther10]

The question, or take, is American centric because most gag users are American, as is the author, I think.

[ladsin]

I am American and I’m not entirely sure of the political positions in other countries, but my presumption would be (based on headlines) that the trend is rather stable. We can say that these beliefs are not good, but I think it’d be highly strange to say that progressives are advocating for the importance of marriage in most any context.

[Girther10]

Yes of coarse you are right

[ladsin]

Thanks