I really don’t want to stir a race war here, but this topic really itches me and I have been noticing very ignorant claims online from many African American rights militants.
I’m not even going to mention the famous ancient Egyptians were black argument (they were neither black nor white ).
But some even claim that Moors and Carthaginians were black as-well (some even go as far as to claim that Phoenicians were black). I feel offended because I have already been yelled at by a black woman face to face and told that I’m not an original North African because I don’t have "African features" and that North Africa was originally Black. Original North Africans look more similar to me than to her...
I have even read some crazy theories by African Americans claiming the reasons why us North Africans aren’t black anymore is because of the Eastern European slave trade by the Ottoman Empire which is a ridiculous claim for many reasons and mainly because modern day North Africans do not have Eastern European in them, and most DNA ancestry results of North Africans show that the only decent European input we have is Italian/Greek and Iberian.
This feels like historical appropriation. We're neither black nor white...
Masinassa king of Numidia (around modern day Algeria)
Hannibal Barca of Carthage (around modern day Tunisia)
Why do some African Americans try to appropriate North African History? From where do they get their information?
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When your (my) ancestoral story begins with “a bunch of your ancestors came from... I don’t know... some random place in Africa on a boat to serve a another group of people who treated them like animals until they decided it was wrong and decided to treat them like a lesser person instead” you feel kinda shitty and you’ll take whatever positive history you can find. Shit I thought maybe I was Jewish for a while. I had (have) no clue. My ancestral history started from a blank spot followed by nothing but minimally improving pain and hardships. Fuck me for wanting to believe maybe there’s a small chance that that blank space wasn’t filled by more sadness. It’s not like there’s anyone in my school system of northern Alabama trying to make me feel proud to be of African decent. Fuck me for wanting a history that’s more than you were worth less then cattle until a few hundred years ago. Fuck me for growing up purposefully severed from my roots left to piece it together by the internet or my parents who grew just as confused if not more confused than I was. Sometimes you want believe there’s more than lynching, whipping and the KKK. Sometimes you want to believe maybe you’re a long lost princess or a prince but it’s not like Disney making a movie about a little black kid who was born royalty. Fuck me for not wanting to feel like a bottom tier human. Fuck me for not wanting to see history through the perspective of people who look like those people who put me in this situation. Because it’s definitely my fault. I did it. I wanted this. I was sitting unborn in some other deminsion going yeah set that shit to hard mode make me black put me in poverty surrounded by people who hate me or joke about people who look just like me. Oh wait I’m sorry this is bad. I should stop talking. I forgot that when I express my pain hurt and frustration with what I experience and feel everyday it makes others feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I don’t want to fall into another stereotype. I mean who wants to be a lazy, destructive, dumb, immoral, long dick beast along with being angry. I need to step back in line to avoid triggering people. My bad everyone. My apologies just had a little emotional break that’s all. I’m fine ignore all of this. I’m a safe person I swear please don’t call the police.
I mean I suppose they could be lead to thinking that way, since Nubians could be called Egyptians, technically speaking considering the area they come from and all, but I wouldn't call it accurate. As for Carthaginians, I mean they did sort of rule over areas with large Black African populations I would imagine, not directly, but with client kings and all and they did employ a lot of mercenaries, some of which probably were blacks, but again I wouldn't consider it anywhere near accurate to say that Carthaginians were black Africans.
Carthaginians didn't rule subsaharian Africa , they roughly rule the western Mediterrenean coastline. Their mercenaries were mostly fellow North Africans and Iberians www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/750/237.png?v=1485680622
Does that show the extent of the Carthaginian influence as a whole or just their direct control area? As I said, if there were client kings or something like that in sub saharan Africa, then people could be mislead into thinking that Carthaginians were black. And yes, I've no doubt that most of their mercenaries were North Africans and Iberians, but as I said some of their mercenaries probably were sub saharan and if there was someone who was pushing a certain view point or agenda, then they could certainly make it seem like they comprised a larger portion than is historically accurate.
Skin is not a monolithic feature over the geographical span of nations. I spent a year or so in Egypt and most people there are shades of brown, I 100% believe that thousands of years ago the people living in Egypt were still brown. Skin color deepens with exposure to sun, Egypt has a lot of sun. Ethnic groups in Africa sometimes have very broad ranges of skin tones. media1.britannica.com/.../7906-004-E9D23DBF.jpg Tunisians can also get exceptionally dark too, that's what happens to brown skin that's exposed to light no matter how light it originally was. I'm sure you can get pretty tanned in the summer too if you tried.
Trying to fit western definitions of race to North Africa will just never work tbh.
I don't know it's probably the ridiculous idea to pin two extremes against another: one united white culture and one united black culture. It's probably just easier for them to say that everything that comes from Africa is black and everything that comes from Europe is white without acknowledging the many different cultures that each continent has brought up.
I would advise 2 things: either do some extensive research without using wiki or take ancestry test lol. Sorry if my answer is ignorant or if I offended you, didn't mean to offend. If that lady is an expert about north Africa or her opinion aligns with facts you find, then kudos but finding the info yourself could be the truth or maybe not, up to you.
Well because they need to justify themselves and their bigotry. They appropriate it because they never did anything major. Now to be fair some pharaos where in fact black, they did in fact build pyramids, however this was a short duration of time when they where conquered by the Nubians (sudan) and they did have pyramids in what is modern day sudan, but again that was for only (if memory serves) about 100 years and even then they where invaders and took over a preexisting country which had people that where more middle eastern/mediteranian in appearance.
The problem is Africans in the middle and southern Africa never really invented anything (their are debates on exactly why (I lean towards climate, less harsh climates, steady weather made the need to alter and change and invent to protect from the environmental changes less of an issue then northern countries plus less exposure to vastly different cultures would not push a technological race (same thing for why Aztecs, who had the knowledge of working metals didn't use it because it was more time consuming then using obsidian and no one else had the technology so it wasn't an issue not having it)). This combined with the extreme victimhood mentality makes them need to prove themselves as being at least equal from a cultural and technological standpoint and also prove that they are really the "superior" group and thus they steal credit for these things as a way to show that their culture/way was some how equal or superior to hammer home their idea that they have been done a great injustice when if you look their lives have actually improved significantly from all the technology given by outsiders.
To me, the mistake that many do when trying to argue is that they blend culture with race. Egyptian Civilization was an African culture, but that doesn't require them to be black, nor does that create any particular difference whether they are black or white. Besides roughly on the same period, there was the Kerma Civilization just south of Egypt, succeded by the Kush Empire that one point ruled even over Egypt (at the 19 or 20th dynasty) and they were black and also built pyramids. Maybe that is the reason for misconception.
It happens with every raciologist. They don't seem to understand anything about what they are arguing. They use terms like "Black" and "White", k which are racial terms, to describe culture. Race is a classification system describing two distinct groupings "White". . . and not "White". I don't know much about what "White" people mean when they say "White". But I do know that the group called not "White" is made up of millions of different cultures, all with varying degrees of commonality and common ground.
Exactly the point I wanted to bring. I am not familiar with the circumstances in the US, but I lived most of my life in an African country, and there we hardly had this discussions. We think of Egyptians just like a Swedish might think of Romans.
At least in America, It's the fact that black Americans are, by definition, the descendants of the African slaves in America... and the white settlers of America systemically stripped these African slaves of their former African culture in order to mentally keep these people enslaved.
So almost every black American (including myself), has no idea whatsoever where their African roots lie.
That being said, some black Americans celebrate the continent of Africa itself, more than a specific nation (because our roots are unknown). The most common known section of Africa is northern Africa (especially Egypt).
I don't blame my fellow black Americans for wanting to cling to any part of African culture that they feel they understand.
It's not so much the fact that they want to cling to any part of "African culture" (between brakets because I doubt it exists) that bothers me, it's when they clame that us North Africans are invaders and took North Africa from blacks, or that we are not black because we are a product of enslaved whites or rape.
You actually can take a DNA test on Ancestry, and they can tell you what parts of Africa you're from. My mom took hers and turns out that she has Africa Southeastern Bantu in her dna (I didn't get to inherit it). Not sure if that helps, but it'll definitely tell you more specifically of which part of Africa you are from.
Inferiority complex, low self esteem, confirmation bias, hypocrisy and victimhood. Literally every logical fallacy you can think of. Kinda like hip hop culture where everything good is actually bad and vice versa... to the point where you wear your pants backwards, purposely leave your shoes untied and don't own any belts.
Slaves when they need something from whitey, KANGS when whitey cites his own history making them feel jealousy. Rather pathetic really, you just pat little Jamal's head and move on with your life.
I remember when my mother was young, "white" really just mean English, Irish, German, and maybe swedish. Italians for instance, were NOT white. I'm not sure about the French, but Spaniards weren't"white" either. Jews weren't white. So basically, most people were not white, and anybody who wasn't white was... I'm not sure, but I think they were black, which would make just about everyone black except white people and the Chinese and Japanese. I don't think Indians were considered Asian, they were definitely black.
This is my best recollection of how it was "supposed" to work.
You don't think applying the weird racial definitions of the past 500 years to ancient civilizations is a bad idea?
And who is this "we"? Who do you speak for? I met a man from Morocco years ago. He drove me from the airport and all he could do is talk about "us" "Black" people.
I was not silly enough to think he meant some "racial" definition. He meant a cultural one.
I am not saying that you share any cultural connection with me, an African-American. But you don't speak for Northern Africans who do not share your views.
I look like the average North African. Culturally most North Africans don't indentify as black, but as Amazigh and/or Arab. The Moroccan man you met is an exception.
Madam, you can identify whatever way you wish. I have had friendships with enough Northern Africans to know that that man was no exception.
You do not speak for all Northern Africans.
Good luck in your endeavors. I suggest you leave the question of cultural common ground between Africans, Northern Africans, and African-Americans up to the individual.
"The African Union is introducing a single passport to make travel on the continent easier for Africans."
Dude, I don't care where you come from. You do not speak for all Northern Africans. You speak for you and for those who agree with you.
As for the word "Black", you can put it into a ham sandwich with mayo and ketchup and eat that for dinner. Because cultural connections are not made via race. They are made via culture. If race defines, you then do you. And let everyone find cultural common ground the way humans have always done it.
Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, Chad Niger, and Sudan are all apart of the "African" Union. Notice, I did not say "Black" Union. There is no Union of the "Black" race because only an insane person would claim that. People are culturally bound to each other.
How many culutral aspects do we North Africans and Sub Saharian Africans share? The Sahara is a natural obstacle that played the role of a biological and cultural barrier. In Ancient history, North Africans were more influenced by the Levante, South Europe, Arabia and Turkey than they were by subsharian Africa unless they're Touaregs or something. And this is easily visible from our DNA. Especially for Algerians and Tunisians.
Its like you don't understand human nature. By many objective measures, African-Americans share much more "culturally" with "White" Americans than any African grouping. But we all know cultural identity does not work that way. When "White" Americans claim "Whiteness", they are claiming a cultural common bond. And no one can tell "White" Americans who or what is representative of their culture.
Turning to the African continent, many sub-Saharan Africans claim cultural common ground with African-Americans. But many do not. I have met people from Ghana who told me they had nothing in common with me. But I have met people from Kenya, Togo, Senegal, who claim deep cultural bonds with African-Americans. Likewise when I met people from Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Morocco.
Culture is a subjective experience. You cannot find a definition for it by analyzing shared traditions, customs, practices, etc. You have to start where people claim cultural common ground.
Claiming that all of Africa shares a culutral bond because they are on the same continent, is like claiming that Indians and Koreans share a culutral bond because they are on the same continent. You mentioned culture first, then you refused to define it claiming that you can't define it. So what did you mean by it when you first mentionned?
Keep digging your hole. So by your logic, I am not supposed to seek cultural common ground with other Moroccans because it might hurt your feelings. Like this woman in the article who talks about being African and Arab.
"Bye Felicia". That is a saying from African-American Culture.
Next time don’t ask me to choose whether I’m African or Arab, and don’t you dare to question if I’m Amazighi or Arab. I’m Moroccan, I’m mixture between them all, I’m African, I’m Arab, I’m Amazighi, I’m Andaloussi…
The results I found on Youtube were roughly 1/3 North African (so Berber/Amazigh), 1/3 Middle East and 1/3 Southern Europe. Sometimes with small black and Jewish trace regions.
European (and Middle Eastern ) input is lower in Morocco than it is Algeria and Tunisia (possibly because Tunisia and Northern Eastern Algeria were an important part of the Roman Empire).
The only Tunisian girl who did it found 36% Middle East, 33% Europe , 24% Berber and 6% Senegalese. But I know other Tunisians who took it and all got more or less similar results.
I laugh every time I read shit like that, I'm part Egyptian and I always wonder why not just claim you're from Mali? I mean the great Mansa Musa was from there. Egypt nowadays is extremely mixed with tons of ethnic groups from the Ottoman Empire, Tons of Greeks and Italians and Semites of course.
It's seriously stupid. North Africans aren't black, they're caucasians. I'm Egyptian and light skinned. Sorry about the picture but it's a real ancient papyrus
I doubt that most African americans have any more African American knowledge than say you or I do. I guess some do just because they're naturally more exposed to it. Ignorant people gonna be ignorant. At the end of the day, none of this shit matters.
Because they need something culturally worthwhile to cling to, and North African culture/history is much better for that than the current African American culture.
North White American people state this fact. If you are 5% black your 100% black. That is why JESUS IS A BLACK MAN. But it comes to basics, your either one or other. Why your statement is wrong. They were black. Like Brazil and New Zealand are races all mixed good , but most classed as black. Why?
Well he's wrong. It was a uniquely southern American idea, used to make it easier to administer slavery, specifically so the children of slavers' rapes would not be considered"white." which would have upset the whole apple cart. As a matter of fact, I can remember my father telling me that the fact that he had brown eyes was considered something of a defect, possibly indicative of "mixed blood" and this was LONG after the civil war was history.
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