I don't think people have to abandon such traditions but I do think you should be able to question the traditions critically, without letting patriotism narrow your mind and your world view.
For example in Switzerland, more specifically in Zurich, there is a holiday called "Sächsilüüte" that is celebrated every year on the third Monday of April. During the event, elderly men dressed in pseudo-medieval clothes ride on horses around a huge straw-man (called "Böög") that is lit with torches and burnt down.
The entire thing is supposed to celebrate the medieval guilds and their importance. The holiday is not racist but it is definitely very sexist, since women are completely shut out of the celebrations. They are not allowed to ride on horses, nor are they allowed to join the guilds. All they are allowed to do is stand at the sides of the streets with flowers in their hands, act all submissive and cheer for the men. Also, one could argue that the event is pretty classist, since it celebrates a social class that traditionally had lots of wealth and political power. Nobody ever celebrates the medieval peasants.
Despite this, I don't think the tradition should be cancelled or banned. There are people who enjoy it and hey, my opinion is: whatever floats your boat. However, I do think we should keep in mind that the tradition is super sexist, classist and - let's face it - also pretty goofy. As long as we can approach our traditions with such a critical mind, I don't see a problem with celebrating them.
The same goes for Christmas for instance. I love Christmas and spending time with my family. But I also understand how bizarre and silly it is that we celebrate a day dedicated to a jewish zombie carpenter who apparently loves rampant consumerism, creepy old men in red costumes holding little children on their lap, reindeers and actual trees in our living rooms (or fake plastic trees, which is even worse). So, I don't even try to lie to myself and make something out of it that it's not.
I think it really depends. Some traditions may be a bit outdated and it would be a good thing to do an update, but other traditions are no need to change. I don't think there should be any ban or a law against such traditions, but people should be allowed to questioning and criticizing them. I think BlueCoyote have many good points.
I do however support that book printing companies nowadays choose to modernize the language in books from the past. In Pippi Langstrømpe by Astrid Lingrid they called the main character's father for "The n** king", but in the modernized version he's called "Pacific king" or "The tropical king". If you want to keep the tradition, you can choose to buy the old version. But people who would like to read the new version should be allowed to have the option to do so.
When it comes to the zwarte Piet (Black Peter) it don't need to be racism. Piet is black in his face because of the soot when he's climbing down the chimney to delivering the presents as Santa's helper. There's many Europeans with black curly hair and I've seen many in South-Europe. Saint Nicholas was a Greek bishop and he was most likely dark himself. If both he and his helpers came from South-Europe, they're "the same" and therefor the helpers wouldn't be more racist than the saint. Santa have white hair and beard because he's old. People of all ethnicity can get white hair.
Even if Piet was an actually African it wouldn't be racist as long the tradition didn't mock dark skinned Africans or anyone else. It's depending on how they're doing things. It's not racist to for example let a blonde haired person playing an employee in a movie itself, but it would be it if it made fun of all white people with blonde hair. There's the difference. So yes, in my opinion it don't need to or have to be racist itself, but is depending on how people are celebrating it or make out of it.
I don't think one needs to give up, but perhaps just change around some traditions. I mean blackface is pretty terrible, even worse is the mockery they do while acting the character (from what I've personally seen), a better idea (that a lot are already doing) is that instead of blackface they make Black Pete a soot/chimney boy. Not only is this not offensive, it still makes sense in Christmas.
Just because something is tradition doesn't always mean it should keep going, for instance in Sweden the Yule Goat would come and scare and beat up naughty kids, but obviously that would land one in jail now I'm sure. So the Yule Goat is better kept as a straw figure sitting as decoration instead, but is not entirely written out.
Some things just need to keep up with the time.
I think the tradition is going to change in time and has already changed a lot since it started. the problem is people are trying to force it to change overnight, which is why people are so against changing it. in the end I don't really care if it's black peter, white peter or Asian peter, but let it come naturally and dont force change. the one thing i am against however is all the technocolored peters like bright yellow, or purple, or light green, or stuff like that.
and in my opinion the image you used is very misleading, seeing as the tradition has already changed a lot since then. sintenpietengilde.nl/.../Zwarte-Pietenverbond.jpg this is how they look irl.
We have the same problem with Border Morris Dancers in the UK. It goes back to the days when agricultural labourers had no work to do in the winter months, so used to dress up in sometimes sinister, sometimes colourful attire, black up their faces with burnt cork as a disguise, and then dance round the local area to make a little money. This goes way back before racism became an issue, and dancing like this still goes on today.
https://wolfsheadandvixen.com/
http://www.huntersmoonmorris.co.uk/
I do not think these beatiful and sometimes scary traditions should go.
No. I say Merry Christmas goddamn it. If it's YOUR holiday I'll say "happy (insert your holiday)" so why can't I say mine?
Opinion
41Opinion
is there any way to make the image less a characterization of a black person and more realistic
i think the question could be asked do we want to participate in traditions that are prejudicial, discriminatory or otherwise show some level of intolerance
for me i'd want to give up traditions that offensive or find some way to change it so it isn't offensive
u I think that anyone who deems this to be racist is making some assumptions about the motivations of others. The validity of those assumptions should be questioned.
Absolutely not, no.
So much of this is feigned outrage ON BEHALF of other people by SJWs. Well past time they were told to give up, and fuck off.
There have definitely been some racist elements. It's absolutely retarded to say, according to the story, that a person who goes in a chimney becomes all black (but his clothes are clean), red lips, afro hair and earrings. Those all happen to be stereotypical things of people from the former Dutch colonies, so there certainly is a racist aspect of it. I can't deny that.
Next to that, Zwarte Piet has already been changed so many times, it wasn't even black until the 1850s. Traditions change, which is logical and I don't see the harm in it. It's literally just making Zwarte Piet without a completely black face and all those other elements into the same person but 'roetvegen' which is more realistic when looking at the story.
It's not even about being offended, the story of zwarte piet combined with the elements is blatantly racist. One can scream 'TRADITION' but that doesn't matter to me, to be honest. Sometimes things like these have to be changed, like the other million times Sinterklaas was changed and it comfortably survived.
So in some circumstances, change it. Zwarte Piet is relatively shitty. Its not even about giving up, it's making a small change that nobody, except grown ups, care about.
To me, Black Pete is not a companion of Saint Nicholas. He's Saint Nicholas slave.
But, white Dutch people either don't understand that or they don't want to understand it.
And they also don't know how blackface is offensive, well, because they're not black.
All countries and cultures have traditions and there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually good, because it means you're country/culture has a History that people want celebrate or remember.
However, a tradition like Black Pete should be banned. Not only because it's offensive, but also because it gives the idea that white Dutch people from today are okay with slavery.
No he is not a slave. Saint Nicholas was a Byzantine and his body was replaced from his original resting place in constaninople after the take over by the Ottoman empire. Saint Nicholas has never owned slaves nor been Spanish, DNA tests confirm this.
Don't think too much about it. Here we had the three wise men (Biblical Magi) played by kids for a Charity every year in every city/town/village. One of them had the face painted black (and one ocher), and the black community took offense. They requested that we use a black kid. We don't have many blacks here, in most towns none. So they accepted 3 white wise men as a compromise.
I don't see why ignoring the fact that there was a black wise man is better than a white kid that disguises as a black.
Their reason was some American slapstick comedy from the 1940s where white men painted their faces black to make fun of blacks.
But here no one knows about this, and we're not in America.
Never give up something because someone finds it offensive. If this was how society worked, we would live in a void because SOMEONE is always offended at something.
In Warsaw there is a monument erected outside the city walls to commemorate the children who fought against the Nazis. What about the offended neo-Nazis? Or the people offended by the depiction of children in combat? Pacifists offended by a memorial glorifying war? Race-baiters offended by a statue they claim honors white supremacists?
Traditions sometimes have a long history, those religious ones I would say we should give up as it is warping society (such as the outlawing stuff that is vital for society to function). The ones more family related such as a the celebratory ones are fine. I could go in a lot of detail on my former point but it would be a lot of work I'm not up for right now.
I think there should be ways to adapt traditions in new ways that are more positive and less offensive. Somethig that is offensive to a large group of people, or that is harmful or unsafe, should not be considered a valuable tradition that is worth continuing. Just because something has been happening for years does not inherently mean that it needs to continue to happen.
Fuck no and that's not racist because it wasn't from the beginning it was created. We should never get rid of harmless traditions like this just because someone disagrees with it, that's insane, fuck people that think like that.
Blackface didn't exist back then.
Well, people certainly seem to be able to put time and effort into finding insignificant things to complain about. It's Christmas for me and I don't care what anyone says. It's been Christmas to me all my life. I'm not going to judge someone for celebrating someone getting musketed to the face by eating turkey with cranberry sauce. It's just tradition, get back to work and quit complaining about shit that makes no difference.
I don't think that Black Pete is racist and could keep going, but I don't know really, I'm thinking he is just a black guy (fictional one tho).
But offensive traditions should be given up. But I don't hink Black Pete is one.
Absolutely not. If everything were banned that someone finds offensive, then there would be nothing left.
Freedom is the ability to think as one wishes, not as someone else thinks you should think.
What an annoying world! It's tradition and besides that Black Peter isn't portrayed as someone bad. There's no way it's racist, they should even be happy that they're a black guy helping Santa Claus.
I've never heard of Santa's elves getting paid
@Waffles731 Me neither.
Hell no! They're OUR traditions. If they're offended by them, they don't have to follow them.
I personally find Korean slurping to be extremely gross and offensive, but they're not gonna change it anytime soon.
I think the Dutch should keep their traditions. Some people are always going to be offended by. . . well just about everything.
No never give up a tradition because someone else finds it offensive and just tell them to "Go choke on a log of Shit"!!!
I don't get why people want to hold on to "black piet" so badly. Just make them blue or whatever idc.
I do not believe your tradition is intended to mock African Americans, which is why blackface is considered racist.
Where 1 sees racism, I see opportunity! Where you are black face, I see him breaking the mold! First black dude not to be stereotyped into stealing shit 😶
Anyone can be offended by anyone, so no, we shouldn't drop our traditions
I think people are way too sensitive to these things nowadays.
God no. If your offended don't listen, don't go to that event, don't surround yourself. I'm not going to conform just because you want to cry in public and say I'm offended
If your tradition is human sacrifice then yeah, drop it. If it's just trivial stuff like black peter then they can suck it up because they're not being harmed in any way.
Should we have offensive traditions just because a few people enjoy it?
Should we get rid of everything that offends someone?
@TheUglyMonk No, we should not. But if it involves something that's targets an entire group of people in an ignorant light that's also backed by racism, then I think we should. I'm not too sure about this though because a lot of ancient or older practices have different meaning behind them rather than racism.
I wouldn't be surprised though since a lot of Dutch people are close minded when it comes to black people.
"I wouldn't be surprised though since a lot of Dutch people are close minded when it comes to black people."
No words.
@TheUglyMonk It's not a false statement. A lot of Europeans have negative ideas of black people and don't even try to deny it either. I'm not saying they're racist, because they're not but that doesn't mean they don't have a negative idea. Same with a lot of foreigners. They have negative concepts of black people. A lot of it has to due with the past and also how black people are portrayed in on television and what the see in the American media.
Have you personally lived in the Netherlands and/or any other European country?
@TheUglyMonk I have not, but I have met plenty of Europeans as well as listened to a lot of their views on black people. Like I said, they're not racists views. They're just misguided or close minded.
Lol "black peter" I find that level of racism absolutely comical.
Yes, that particular tradition should be forgotten. Or just call him Peter.
Traditions is what defines us, I don't want to lose my identity because someone doesn't like it. If someone doesn't like me, he should look for other people, I won't change myself for him.
No I don't think we should I know I certainly will not.
If they're so offensive, GET THE FUCK OUT OF ME COUNTRY, AND GO BACK TO YOUR OWN!
Lol that’s weird in America yes this would be a problem neither would I want a black Saint Nick sneaking in my chimney after hours so yeah...
Only if the intention is to be offensive, if not screw everyone else.
No, especially since it won't make them stop killing us.
You shouldn’t care about what offends other people.
If people find this offensive they should leave the netherlands/belgium.
You should give up your offensive traditions. I don't have any offensive traditions, so I'll keep mine.
what are the offensive traditions?
@WTFliberals I don't know, I was talking hypothetically. Whacking Day?
I'm up for it as long as everyone gives up their bullshit together
I respect other's traditions and tell people who get offended that I will put them on the crucifix just like my Roman ancestors did.
A. I got ancestry from that region and thata fucked up.
B. Romans only used crucifixion on pirates, enemies of the state or on occasion slaves who really fucked up, like as in murder
If he really was black, instead of painting someone's face, maybe get someone who is black to represent the character.
Why couldn't there be a black Santa and white servants?
there's a whole backstory that explains it
@AGuyWhoKnowsALittle Yes, slavery was a tradition.
While the black face is questionable. Black Peter isn't a slave
Or maybe he was. The secret is who cares
The more we suppress this history and cause the divide between creeds of people the more hatred will spread
@AGuyWhoKnowsALittle it's about NOT teaching kids "blacks=slaves" *before* they learn history.
@AGuyWhoKnowsALittle
Or maybe those kids see him as santas friend as he is more often depicted now
Oh so Black people can't have white friends. Lets teach them that instead
Santa clause is inspired by a real person; Saint Nicholas. He had Greek parents and lived some parts of his life in Turkey. So in other words he was a South-European and he was most likely dark himself. But because of his old age, he had a white beard and hair. Some says black Pete was an moor in Spain from Africa, but other says it's also a possibility he was a South-European as well, but is black in his face because of the soot from the chimney. There's actually many South-European with black curly hair. Curly hair isn't only an African thing.
dreams.metroeve.com/.../...ople-dreams-meaning.jpg
content.naturallycurly.com/.../Laura1.jpg
objektiiv.ee/.../Saint_Nicholas.jpg
churchofourladyofkazan.org/.../...icholas-12-6.jpg
@curiousnorway St Nicholas or Agios Nicholaos was a devout Catholic bishop: at the council of Mikea in 325 he's said to have attacked physically bishop Arianus of Alexandria because of Arianus' heretic views.
*typo Council of Nikea in 325 CE
I didn't know that Santa had a slave. That is so cool.
Black face is kinda fucked up
Are people seriously defending black face
On a case by case basis but sometimes yes.
Why is it blacked face in the first place anyways.
No, only if you force other people to do them.
It's more complicated than that.
I won't.
In short, No
No we shouldn't
Nope
You can also add your opinion below!
Girl's Behavior 
Guy's Behavior 
Flirting 
Dating 
Relationships 
Fashion & Beauty 
Health & Fitness 
Marriage & Weddings 
Shopping & Gifts 
Technology & Internet 
Break Up & Divorce 
Education & Career 
Entertainment & Arts 
Family & Friends 
Food & Beverage 
Hobbies & Leisure 
Other 
Religion & Spirituality 
Society & Politics 
Sports 
Travel 
Trending & News 
Most Helpful Opinions