Is the #metoo movement out of control? what happened to innocent until proven guilty? (Page 2)
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It took 150+ young girls being abused before anyone stopped Larry Nassar.
And it’s not just women. Look how many boys and young men were molested and raped by priests and the Catholic Church covered it up.
I think what the #metoo movement is showing is how much the legal system has failed when it comes to sexual abuse when money and power is involved.
Maybe reflecting is a better word than showing.
I think metoo is exactly how it sounds like and that's for attention.90% of the time.
The amount of sexual abuse that is covered up makes the amount of sexual abuse that’s talked about a stop in the bucket. Rather than shutting girls and Women up, I’d rather see more boys and men feel empowered to stop abuse that happens to them - including being molested by women as children.
*drop in the bucket
This metoo movement is nothing but a witch hunt led by angry women... it has nothing to do with inappropriate sexual behavior, it's all about something else, mostly to do with an overall spiteful view of men, most of whom are innocent and few are like the disgusting creatures (like the USA gym coach and Harvey... this movement exists to dehuminize people like James Franco and Aziz and paint them in the same portrait as Harvey and a child molester... any movement that does this absolutely deserves scrutiny and should not have any respect or credibility).
The majority of women coming forward through metoo aren’t even pointing fingers by writing out specific details such as names, dates and locations. Therefore these are not so much accusations, as they are just people sharing their experiences of sexual assault and harassment. I’ve also seen many men come forward.
Are you kidding me? Every other day it's a new celebrity and half of these claims are clearly nothing to do with actual sexual assault. It's just slander James Franco. That Aziz guy with the gross kinks. Those are just two examples of two people who got falsely branded by the metoo campaign
@yodaiam as far as I’m concerned those women never even mentioned metoo.
As far as your concerned? Dude, your blissfully ignorant opinion means shit when you could look up their names and see they hashtaggeg the shit out of metoo.
I mean, if your okay being ignorant than that's on you but that's like someone saying "as far as I'm concerned Harvey Weinstein did nothing wrong." That's how informant you sound. Everyone knows Harvey was out of line and acted way inappropriate just like everyone knows these girls came out with metoo to name innocent guys like Aziz and Franco. If you want to ignore that, than what's the point of even talking to someone like you. You're living in a bubble lalalalala I'm not listening.
@yodaiam I read the cases and didn’t see any of them using metoo.
@yodaiam not to mention that the cases with Harvey, Aziz and James don’t even compare to the hundreds of thousands of actual metoo posts that have been completely anonymous and non-accusatory.
Yes. Some were anonymous but others weren't. And some were accusatory and others weren't. But Aziz and Franco were both talked about in the metoo campaign. Those girls used metoo
@yodaiam ok, and? I still said that the *majority* of women coming forward didn't use metoo to point fingers at specific people. *Most* of the posts I've seen haven't contained any names. I. e. yes, there are a few posts that have been accusatory but that was never the point of the campaign. The point was to share your story and highlight the fact that sexual assault is extremely common, not put blame on a specific person.
But you saying *most* and "majority" doesn't mean that's everyone's experience. If you can't remove yourself from your own experience and acknowledge that many people are having different experiences than why are we even attempting to have a conversation here. It's not that at all... it's just you stating how it is and forcing people to agree with you even if it doesn't reflect their own experiences. Might as well not say anything at all and just leave to "I'm right you're wrong don't bother talking."
Frankly is what you say is true... if the point was to share experiences of assault and harassment, why is it when I came out and talked about how I was molested as an 8 year old by an older girl (teenage at the time who was meant to be looking after me). .. why did an overwhelming majority of women react negatively. I received hateful comments and no compassion while have more than a couple women tell me it wasn't my place to speak. I also saw another person receive this same hatred and attack when she came out to name her accuser and said it was a woman. So I have two examples where women were the predators and #metoo attacked and shamed the people for saying "I was assaulted by a woman" so. if thus movement is about what you say it's about. .. sharing etc etc... it certainly has other applications as well that are being used negatively. It amazes me that you want to continue denying this and ignoring this blatant drawback.
I'm pretty damn positive that if you approach this rationally, it wouldn't take you much effort to acknowledge that people are misusing this campaign in more than one way and that not everyone is welcome to share and that there are negative things that are coming from it. It boggles my mind that anyone would be unable and unwilling to even acknowledge this basic truth.
@yodaiam where did I say that it was going to be everyone's experience?
When you write off any experiences that don't reflect your rhetoric
@yodaiam as far as I’m concerned those women never even mentioned metoo.
That's a good start... "as far as I'm concerned." You act like your the absolute authority on this subject instead of acting how a reasonable individual would "Oh, I didn't see that those women made those accusations under the metoo umbrella but maybe they did..."
@yodaiam lol
Classy...
Or maybe troll?
@yodaiam nah, just don't get why you've gotten so riled up by my opinion, and I'm kinda tired of trying to fiGhT oNLiNe
This is a fight to you? That's cute.
@yodaiam lol !
Ya its fucking retarded.
"That guy touched my shoulder! And I felt super uncomfortable because I'm a hyper-sensitive little girl. I didn't say anything because I'm scared of confrontation, can't deal with people, and don't know how to use my voice. Instead, I'm gonna tell hr and claim it was sexual harassment and get him fired so I don't have to deal with any awkwardness and can feel empowered. And if that's not enough, I'm gonna slander him on twitter but use the metoo hashtag in order to give my asinine claims just a hint of validity by riding the coat tails of women who were actually raped and molested!"
Every movement has its boundaries where it goes from the justified to the asinine and we've just blown past those boundaries.
I can really see both sides of this debate. While the movement may help true victims to speak out, it definitely brings with it the false claims. Its definitely a messy situation right now. What really pisses me off is that these "fake" allegations are taking focus away from legitimate rape/sexual assault victims.
I'm happy that these women were able to come out and confront their demons. They've been hiding the pain for too long and I'm glad those abusers were punished.
It becomes a problem when women begin to use this metoo thing as a weapon against men. A bad date, or bad sex, or just a guy who's awkward on a date does NOT equal sexual assault, so long as everything is consensual and neither the man or woman said "no".
At this point, people at my university are hypersensitive to this stuff and anything can be taken as an aggression, whether it is racial, sexual, or whatever. I will admit, it is hard to date or even talk to many women at my school when the women have their shields up and the men are avoiding women. Hopefully this whole thing cools off.
The new generation doesn't care about your human rights. They only care about you if agree with them. If you disagree, they will go out of their way to attack you and try to ruin your life. Some even make ut their livelihood.
it is 'out of control' due to hysterical reactions like this
truth is paramount. If a woman wanted to come at me for example with vicious rumours or mistruths. I would welcome it. In the knowledge that she will be made to look like a fool in the interim. Then destroyed in the aftermath.
the sad reality is most women have suffered some level of sexual harassment. Particularly in my generation and previous ones where it was par for the course. The #metoo movement is to be welcomed and supported
Yeah I get sad that people don’t understand this - literally most women have been sexually harassed in their lives but people would rather accuse us of lying cuz “SURELY NOT?”
@larnski If you want a classic example from the past, watch North Country
Whether the accusations that are being placed are fabrications or truths, it is every person's right that is making them due to free speech. Sure, those who areaking false claims could be setting it back. However, those that aren't falsified are trying to seek someone to change the method of treating rape or grooping or any other inappropriate behavior that you feel uncomfortable with. I know women who have been uncomfortable with bosses, clients, or more but are afraid to do anything about it. Sure, some people shouldn't lie about these claims but not all of them are lies. It is an important movement that is showing how many women, and men, are treated in this manner.
Here's where you are incorrect tho. Slander is a crime and so is defamation of character. To falsely accuse someone is a criminal act and a lot of these women are doing just that... without punishment might I add. There are ways one can take advantage of freedom of speach and misuse their rights... this is a great example. In a case like nasser... great example of how to correctly use freedom of speach. But most of these other cases... it's simply wrong. Society need to penalize and discourage women from making false claims so the girls who are true victims, like those gymnasts, can get their justice. It's hard to take rape and assault victims as serious as we should when you have a girl saying she was assaulted because she gave head to her boyfriend that one time he asked but she wasn't into it but did it anyway cuz she chose to (ie. Franco's x girlfriend who is presumably upset that he dumped her).
I understand with what you are saying and agree on some parts. However, in some way it is shedding light on some people who weren't falsely accused. For those who were, it is a shame that people felt the need to make fake accusations. However, the statistics of rape or harassment are astounding, especially in a work place. Women, girls, and some men have had to come to terms with the fact that it will happen. There isn't much that you can do. Sure, you can file a report. You can speak up. However, not everyone has the courage to do that. Additionally, not everyone who is truthfully accused will be investigated and if they actually are, the chances of them actually being charged is slim. The fact that this is happening allows people to step up and say, "hey, this happened to me and I'm no longer afraid to say it because others had the strength to do what I was too afraid to."
I get what you're saying and the thought or implication of it us nice... but it's already being so grossly misused that peoole generally don't care much about it. If a girl were to come out tomorrow and accuse Chris Pratt or even Helen Degeneres (I saw an example of a girl accusing another girl and this happened)... You'd have a large amount of people defending them and shaming the accusers. A lot of people already see that this is about attention and very fee believe the allegations put forth unless it's an outrageous claim with substantial proof and evidence like the US Olympic coach. Metoo has gotten so much negative press it's outdone good it could have done. Women acting like undesirable men asking them out and flirting is on the same plane as what happens with the athletes and someone like Rose McGowan.
Furthermore. The scrutiny women like Ashley Judd get, who worked with him, experienced Harveys wholly inappropriate behavior, said to him things like "I'll date you when you win me an oscar," than turned around and CHOSE to work with him some more after that. It's obvious these people are as much to blame as Harvey, women who used men like Harvey yo their advantage so they could further their career are as much part of the problem as the men like Harvey. The women who wear plunging necklines at work and show off their legs in the office. As much as women don't want to believe that's as inappropriate as anyone making comments or advances at work. There just too much hypocritical behavior surrounding this movement that rational people generally just role their eyes when they hear or see it.
Furthermore... it does nothing to help people or the situation. The problems that exist aren't going yo be fixed by me too. You even said it yourself. Women don't come forward. When they do come forwards the justice system makes it hard for successful convictions. Metoo doesn't fight for a better justice system, it doesn't try and fix what's broken and clearly not working. Metoo solely exists to publicly shame men inti hiding and cause tension between men and women (as many men don't know how to behave because they don't want a simple comment like "hey your hair looks nice today" to be misconstrued as sexual harassment. Or "hey you look good in those jeans" (and than the girl turns around and says "that gross guy from accounting was checking out my ass, ewe gross." Meanwhile that hot guy from marketing sends her inappropriate messages telling her all the things he wants to do with her and she's all over that.
The notion of a campaign that makes it easier for women to come forward is nice but that's all that metoo is.. it's a notion. It doesn't actually make it easier to come forward because the same problems in our justice system is still a problem and no one is talking about it... instead... they are talking about how that one time they gave James Franco aa blow job when they really didn't want to, or that one time James Franco hit on a girl who was younger than him but of legal age and backed off when she was skeptic it was him. Or that time Aziz had a really awkward date and turned out to be a little weird but the girl went along without and never stated she didn't want to do any of the things she chose to do with him. Metoo is really a meme that stands for #iregret or #jamesfrancodumpedmeandnowimbitter
I kind of agree with you. I'm sure in all these movements some women have made false claim and some men of those men are innocent. It kind of become a witch hunt and some reputation are destroyed.
BUT I also have to say that it allowed for women to speak and among all those allegation, a big amount of those men admitted that the claims were true and that's something major.
Ehh I don't know about that. Accusations like this need to be taken seriously. I can understand where you're coming from but you also have to consider the fact that the courts are SUPPOSE to represent the people and anyone will be quick to tell you that isn't always the case, especially if you have money or just a good lawyer in general.
I thought we established that its spiralled out of control and the actual unfortunate events are being used and exploited by feminists as their wild card to keep a victim mentality and keep power over men.
Even if the accusation is proven false the man has already gone through the whole proccess and there's still the stigma that he's a sexual predator grouped with the worst kind of scum on this planet, which jeopardizes his job and relationship
Rape and sexual harassment have been naming the accused for a long time as I understand it.
Regardless of guilt can destroy their lives.
Which does fly against innocent until proven guilty.
Successful prosecutions for this kind of thing have been notoriously low.
The movement isn’t about accusing. It’s about showing how common this shit is. Yes there are policies but there’s hundreds of thousands of stories where those policies were just façades. They’re there but not enforced. That’s the point of the movement.
I have personally been wondering this myself. No doubt women all over should not be experiencing sexual harrassment and they should speak out. If someone is guilty, they should face consequences and be punished. However, before someone is even proven guilty they lose all their deals and credibility. Even if they are proven innocent, people no longer trust them. They are exposed to slander and lose their whole career over a false rumor.
I see it as away for women to get revenge on a guy who they regret having sex with. It does harm real people who have been a victim of rape I feel that it is going to get worse before it gets better.
Low worker protection against getting fired is what happened to "innocent until proven guilty". If employer thinks it may harm companys imago, they can fire them. Some countries it's not that easy to fire employee.
Of course still if they are tried to get to jail or money for the victim, it needs to go through justice system where "innocent until proven guilty" is working.
Me too is a movement of Weinstein concubines who, naturally, get bitchy about non big shots coming near them and try to kick us where it hurts until they can get back in bed with another similar character.
What to you expect from such concubines? Fariness? Concern for women who don't sleep with Weinstein as a lifestyle?
I believe in the #metoo movement because it encourages people like us who have been sexual harassed and assaulted speak up... yet I have been both and won’t speak up just because I don’t want to ruin another persons life... I think work places should still follow their protocols but I don’t think people should be silenced
If what you are saying is true then you speaking up won't ruin their lives... They have done that themselves! This is about them facing consequences and you being an instrument in that motion, you don't dictate the consequences.
I suppose that’s true... then again it’s easier said than done...
You are right, it is easier said than done. Something that makes things easier is not telling the whole world online and instead dealing with it within your community. The negative side about the #metoo movement is that some people don't want the world to know, but somehow they think that in order to gain credibility you have to tell the world...
I think you are wanting your time this is America you are talking about. They don't care until the problem at hand is knocking at their door. We might as well have a tyrant as our leader and be under a fascist government.
Sexual harrasment is bad and false allegations are bad too. The problem I have is that they don't come out as soon as the harrasment or assault happened. Why water 20-30 years when as soon as it happens it can be solved immediately.
The other thing that bothers me is that it depends on the person attractiveness or wealth and power. I've seen the good looking guy at my work smack girls asses and say some pretty sexist stuff but no one says anything. But some other schmuck who is bald and hideous says or does the same and he is dragged out by the nads to hang. That's none of my problem but it's an issue I have. I'm not innocent on the matter because I've much rather have a sexy girl hug me or smack my butt than the ugly girl. It is what it is.