So as a part of a racial/culture workshop online back in the 90s I constructed this idea in my late 20s. We were having these discussion on a bulletin board online. It was conveniently titled Race Relations. Of course there many racists there advocating for the race war etc. So I came up with a proposal that I thought made sense. It was called Partial Racial Segregation.
Where we would divide the nation up into two parts. The larger part is the just where life proceeds normally. Then one area would be designated a "racial nation". In this nation, you could construct "no go zones" based upon race or whatever standard you guys were comfortable with.
That way, you can have a "White" city or county or state. Or a "Black" one. Or an Arab one. I mean depending upon how many wanted this "freedom". You could create your racial. religious, or whatever state based upon whatever rules you see fit. I think there should be a minimum requirement in terms of population. I mean you can't create a zone for a dozen people. That's ridiculous.
I played around with the idea and it would be costly. But less costly than riots, looting, lawsuits, turmoil, etc. that goes along with our insane race problems that have existed since we were a nation. It is a proposal that could save us.
What do you guys think? Workable?
Sound like a good idea!
Nah man. That's stupid.
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Come on everybody! Get up here and vote! Looks like many people are just shook up by this proposal. Even the racists! Haha!! Wow. You would think they would be happy about this. A chance to be away from all the things that pisses them off. They don't have to go back to Europe. They can build a "White" utopia that will be rich and prosperous! Look at this. I can't get one thumbs up.
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It is an interesting exercise. But I think solutions like these must be apart of the discussion. We have been at this for 150 years and people still believe in race and racial ranking systems. People claim this is a defeatist attitude. On the contrary. We are late in figuring out how to work with one another. Just because you are labeled a liberal does not mean you are immune to bias and racial weirdness. Being "Black" does not stop you from being aggressively ignorant.
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Just wanted to bring back this thread. This made folks really mad and upset when I first proposed it
:D
How about this solution, Partial "Racial" Segregation?
You beat me to it. I grew up in a place that was 50/50 and people gravitate to where they want based upon $. But it's the integrity of the people that causes issues. that's not race but may revolve around it. There is "racial" stuff for sure, like I know NYC is pushing black people out so they can gain control over valuable property, etc... In a way... it's kinda like that now... this area black, that area chinese... that one jamaican, etc..
... there are various options... if this is really as bad as people believe it to be.
A) full separation... like black people take Baltimore, non black own Minneapolis, etc... Could even do it by state. That's extreme. I had the same question posted about democrat/republican.. because that seems worse:) I see this as "run by"... not excluding. If you want to be in that community you can, but you recognize its' run by that race, with all the same laws and such. No different than me going to Germany... I'm not german, but they accept me as tourist, I abide by their laws and hope/expect them to treat me well as I do them! There are white people who love black people and make it their effort to spend time with them. Could not separate them by laws...
B) partial - for example. There could be segregated police... if there is an inssue involving black people pulled over, black cop required. It might help defuse things a bit. But reality is there is a tension between cop non cop... still gonna have bad decisions. But this could help most defuse racial tension.
... I'll have to think more about this. I think it falls apart due to inequities but if each has equal opportunities... then it's just an extension of what we have. But... if areas have mix then there still can be conflict/perceived conflict.
Bottom line... there is a printing press holding this whole experiment together and a few rags of a flag. lose power over that printing press, lose ability for materials, supplies... be a mess.
this is like "Black people goign their own way" BPGTOW. That be sad honestly if comes to that.
My other approach is better... how do we boost black people to the superior culture... set that vision and goal.
No, it is not like that now. The biggest complaint in the forum is racism and the response to racism. So what if we gave people space where they can enact as many racist laws as they wish? Like you claim the media is at fault. You could live in a place where they blast FoxNews or One America News all day long. And it can be all unbiased and fact based, etc. You could even create a racial news network. I mean, it would be a bit odd, if there is only one race to report on. But you might be able to think up something.
A. Yeah full separation is kind of ridiculous.
B. Partial. I don't see what is so hard about this. We would have a certain area of the country designated for one group, however that group is defined. That takes are of police, fire department, essential services, etc.
Who cares about "equal" opportunities? This is a chance to design a community the way you want from the ground up with like minded folks, right? You could still arrange to travel to a neighboring area for work. Of course there may need to be some kind of assistance in the initial stages. But looking at the costs of our issues now. I just think it is worth it.
Yeah, you think this only about "Black" people.
Anyway, you idea does not make any sense to me.
Like, how would you boost my culture. Tell me. I am curious.
We already have some degree of segregation... indian reservations. there are communities which are predominantly "this or that" culture (which I see more than race). So if people want to feel save being around chinese cops, go to china town, etc.. But Americans should feel their lives have value, respect and equal treatment wherever they go in USA and that is the underlying problem were trying to solve. I don't think different "racist" laws would work, generally don't agree with it. knee to neck should be unacceptable as that technique kills people. Are cops more brutal to black than white? See this scenario for counter balance. The issue is deeper than race, race may be a factor in reactions and decisions... that is the soar spot that needs healed. Nobody cares about this white guy... www.youtube.com/watch So no... laws should be accomodating to all. I live in peace with many cultures on my street, but is predominantly white... it's middle class, we respect each other and communicate. Black people here are well regarded and respected as are the chinese, indian, egyptian. 1/2 of us like to kill the other 1/2 because of democrat/republican. that's another matter... I know that doesn't help the sense of well being overall of black people who feel threatened.
B) partial separation. Try an experiment and see how it goes. start with Baltimore if you wish. Social order is fragile... there are law abiding people and there are criminals. Only takes a few to make a mess. Criminals are smart, manipulative, narcissistic, don't care and will find every way to exploit the system. I've run into them recently... they know they won't get caught... so why not steal? That leads to more problems. Add to it... what we will likely see post riots... business doesn't return, poverty strikes, job losses... the cycle of despair. What do they do to live... more children in despair and crime. The solution to that is self worth, dignity, respect, appreciation, meaningful and rewarding work, etc. etc.. Parents, stability, community, integration, RESPECT. Some of us offer that... it gets torn up quickly like nancy pelosi with a state of the union address. And these... are the good times:)!! "only about black people" - I see two issues... a) police abuse black people specifically feeling unsafe.
"ideas" - could have an escalation policy where a black person is pulled over... the car is marked with the race of the offider. Citizen can motion for a similar race person. Takes more time, but if makes them feel safe... that ain't so bad. Just have to enusure those resources are available. Used to be a woman could request a female cop... maybe still can. Not that different. There is such policy for requesting supervisor cop... maybe people don't know that exists and we just need training to help.
How to make superior culture: This seems impossible now because of the heightened emotions. There are different views on how to perceive the issues. Logical: www.breitbart.com/.../
And this emotional/reality that other people need to understand what they are seeing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FVCRtfhScs this whole conference was powerful... ... It's all the basics of humanity. take the best across every culture and propagate it. the simple ones I see among others cultures/family which I think will dominate. * family.. strong family units, parents teach and discipline children. School/education, discipline, self confidence and respect for self and others. I'd teach all about law, legal, confidence... martial arts. Honesty, integrity, giving back. Eradicate drugs, theft, petty crimes from culture. [I grew up with a kid that was trained to be a thief. Some were trained to be pimps. That does not help perception of culture even when just a few.] Don't measure to white people, measure to the best... whatever that is. I think Christian values and instillment can help.. It has it's own set of problems.
Build community of trust, respect with police. I've been building my community for a long time. I talk to my neighbors, I treat people with regards, I help others, forgive when there's mis communication, I don't steal and I give things away, smile, friendly. It can all be destroyed by powerful forces beyond us... so do what you can but don't let the world distort you from your true self.
In general, I think a good way out of this would be to march to a better social vision (need leader), comprehensive review of police practices and push for law changes, instillment of discipline. Training on how to handle police, and conflict resolution. Stabilization socially to reduce the corrupt people where theft/human trafficing/drugs are their life. they are spoiling it for so many.
The other idea is around the root issue in girlfriend scenario... he was down, out of work, and $ was an issue. did he pass a bad $20. heck, anyone could get a bad bill... but he didn't give the items back.. that's why he got arrested. in effect, theft.. poor... depressed, who knows what else. A lot of people are down. So... create a safety net.
Those who have, create a fund to help anyone else in their communities. If want to dot that by race, so be it. "race" always hurts somebody, but it is what it is. Ideally, by church. So nobody goes hungry. Also... social support for those down. People, and certainly men, need support and when we are down we start to isolate. Men are difficult to handle... may need a lot more therapists and social workers. There is not much support out there for men and mentoring young men. So that can be built in positive and constructive ways going forward.
Yeah, that segregation is not what I am talking about. Certain folks feel that people are forcing integration onto them. Feminism is being forced upon them. "White" are being blamed for everything. I thought you hung out here in the forum. Well, I am just saying what if there was this "White" zone where all of these difficulties were gone?
We all know what should happen. It is not happening. And the only solution we have been told is that people should stop complaining. That is not working. We need every idea on the table now. We need real solutions. And here is one. What is racist about this law?
It saves lives!!!
Why do you think the rioting is just over George Floyd?
How is this law not accommodating to all? Do you like being around racists? Like you have said you were a victim of "Black" racism. Did you enjoy it?
Well, if you live peace why can't you go on living in peace? And if ever you feel the media is against your race. Or "Black" racism is getting to be too much, you can go to a zone where all of that is gone.
I have no idea of how you came up with this sequence. What more problems? Nothing you said here makes any sense.
Let's say you start in Baltimore. And you say, in order to form a zone, you have to have a minimum population. So you do like 50,000 minimum for a "Black" zone, 25,000 for a "White" zone, etc. You have to adjust based upon the actual populations of the affected people. But I don't know. If we take this nationwide, I think it should just be a flat rate. This gives the advantage to "White" people because of a bigger population, but who cares?
Yeah, this is not just about "Black" people this is about all of us and those who claim they cannot get along with other people. They are all around you. So we need solutions. We don't fakery, right now. We need truth.
You think your changes will make any difference even as I posted you a video about a "Black" officer arresting a six year old African-American child? I really don't think you understand me.
1. The rioting is not about George Floyd. He was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.
2. The rioting is over police brutality first and foremost. Along with decades long frustration with systemic racism.
3. So we need solutions that allow for us never to return to this state where the country is burning down and we are losing lives/treasure. We have to find a way to a better ground.
4. So since our beliefs are more important to ourselves than lives. We need a state where people can embrace their beliefs fully without taking innocent lives.
I don't understand why everyone is upset with a completely logical argument. To me this is simple common sense.
it's hard to have dialog here, typing never been a medium. I agree need ideas, need changes. might be time where I invite some people for dinner and we brainstorm as this calms down. This been going on a long time.. same pattern. this one seems different. Some interesting voices I resonate with, but I listen to the other side that I posted.
I don't know you, I'm not saying you are a criminal. Majority of people work, good ethic, just want to live. There are criminals though of all races. Some areas may be more of a culture due to cultural/family issues. I just saw video 10 of them (mixed races) that work out of baltimore and hit the other night. they don't care, no fear. There's history behind all that mess... those are someones little babies that grew up, corrupted by society, Freddie Gray and other incidents... and it all changed. I used to walk those streets no problem... I wouldn't go near it due to social decay. If we (society) don't address with changes, that dynamic spreads. That's why I say... start there and build your dream.
But I think what you just said was setup a "white utopia"... is that right... where we don't have these issues? ugh.. I have no problem with most people as long as they are law abiding. As I noted, some caucasions are awful... it's culture, family, training that matters. I won't like some cultures I'm not used to... it's not race or color though. Underlying beliefs, values are most important. e. g. I wouldn't move to Dubai, not my culture...
Someone has to balance "police have a hard job to do" with "treat people with respect and dignity" and come out with an answer that people accept.
Boost Culture: Same as running a company. heck... make a corporation for black people and draw a mission statement that is a vision everyone can rally around and nothing can alter course from. everyone gets education on how to handle police and their rights #1 including training scenarios and certifications. Now essential to survival. #2 learn self defense and discipline. Make it lifetime work, not all unlike martial artists. Get empowered rather than feel repressed. Looking back, too many kids... black kids... had no hope, didn't put in the effort, didn't have the support, started relationships early (expensive childern and divorces), fell into crime and poverty. Have community to discipline poor behavior, rebuild family units. Thus... the family unit and community of support become key tenets. It's there for some, maybe many. too many... have no parents, no resources. Get all black people to donate # to corporation to help kids. here's one approach... working for china! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGUGq_PweLE&t=281s
I agree with your 1 agree 2 agree w brutality... of all races, but is never that simple.. that's why doesn't change. Systemic racism... accepted. In effect, that is trauma. And so part of the solution would have to be trauma therapy or getting away from the source of trauma. 3 Agree, craft a vision... make a mission statement, build a plan and implement. 4 I don't understand. I haven't read other comments on this. ALL americans should feel safe walking around their block, in the park, and working and be treated with respect. That be the vision. If that means some have to be isolated to do so because the trauma of the past is too much, so be it. I don't need that, never asked for it. I've been around diversity too long. If I need it, I'll move somewhere I'm safer. Black people are as safe as Asians here. Many people may need trauma therapy. That's a real thing to embrace, Id make trump fund it...
Again, I don't understand. Do you know the Breonna Taylor story? She was murdered in her home. Why did she have to die? Are you saying she is dead because she had bad culture?
Oh thank you for not thinking I am a criminal. Whew!
Well, I hear you talk a lot about how you judge people. I don't really get a feeling from you that race isn't a factor in your life. But maybe if we met, I would change my mind.
Some caucasians are awful? Really? I don't really care. I ain't a racist. I am sure there Indians who are bad people. I have an Indian friend. He is a great guy. But he went through a period in his life where he did drugs and got high a lot. I am not a judge. I can't do the whole judge of character thing.
The issue we face is our nation is burning. That's why I proposed partial racial segregation. If people are so frustrated because an integrated society means we have to work with each other, then they should be allowed a community where they don't have to do that work.
Make it for everyone, open to all is best so it is accepted. If one group feels disadvantaged, then they get priority, I'm fine with that. I know I'm not trained and why I watch videos. Could be done at church... why not?
All people are individuals, I see them that way. BUT... our simple human minds will try to generalize and group things to save energy. So we end up with these groupings that get all messed up... black, white... no such thing but our minds can see that. German, Italian, Chinese. Yes, we are individuals. But people do coagulate around beliefs and ideas. Those can span color, culture. Christianity is an example of that or other belief systems. What matters more is what people think and what's in their heart. But that does not negate those who feel/are discriminated against. It happens to Chinese, Japanese, black, white, etc.. it happens to dogs and cats and snakes. Black is not unique... but may get it worse than others or just the nature of how society worse... I don't know. So I accept how people feel is real for them. Then I try to figure out what can I do about that... No diff than any other person. Some people think the earth is flat, some round... some think Trump is best president, some think worse. People all different, but group together...
Africa... an example of how impoverished kids gaining resources, attention, mentorship where I suspect they didn't get it before. Chinese are investing in Africa... the people. Genius! And they will win the continent as USA are too dunce. Discipline, fun, teaching skills, self respect, work ethic, etc.. that's what it's about.. maybe that's what is lost in our society for too many in inner cities. an example of path to success with long vision.
what creates human differences? Beliefs is biggest. genetics is a factor, parents and family, environment. What makes a difference as we grow are emotional/traumatic experiences, training, conditioning. Unfortunately, it is often a limiting factor as emotionally impacting events define a persons sense of who they are.
I guess this is a response to my second query. Yeah, I don't think you will find many "Black" people coming to you saying they are guilty of having a bad culture, even if they are dead broke, high on drugs, just out of prison etc.
I told you before, you would have take away the free will of "Black" people.
I think you need to sit down and think about who "Black" people are. And also about who "White" people are. I mean real working definitions. Because that whole African video thing sent me on a loop. I was like, what?
I mean my view is that we are cultural groups. Everyone points out that we share many cultural traits. Of course. That still does not stop us from being divided into two groups. We have this idea of individuality. But "Black" people have known for centuries that idea is conditional for us. Sometimes we are individuals. Sometimes are not. That's why when a "White" person commits a crime, they made a bad decision. But when a "Black" commits a crime, it is because of culture. His culture made him make that bad decision.
? But so is Bangladesh, so is India, so is Ukraine, so Brazil. There are all kinds of countries that have impoverished kids who are doing great things.
In my discussions with "Black" kids, I would not use African kids. I would probably use videos from Ukraine, Russia, or India. Because I want them to understand culture. When I told "Black" kids about my travels through Eastern Europe and I showed them photos, they could not believe what I had to share. It was eye-opening to them. Well, my travels were eye-opening to me also.
Well, I agree to certain point. But included is the belief that you are a separate group. I call it group identity. That's why I told you "White" people are simply the people who think they are "White". They can't really be defined culturally or genetically.
The same with "Black" people basically. An example is Barack Obama. He was born to a "White" woman and a Kenyan man. But he became "Black" or African American. We are a weird society. Perhaps one of the weirdest on the planet when it comes to group identity.
The thing I disagree with is that we have different experiences. I don't know anyone in mhy neighborhood who has had my experiences traveling all over the world. I talk to people often about where I have been and the experiences I have had. Experiences differ, but group identity stays the same. We live under this weird social constuct of race, which is only an attempt to define cultural differences.
Race is simply a subject cultural bias, parading around as an objective norm.
Better rules that enforce co operation. Dividing the nation up that way is no good for the nation, I definitely think that social groups work better when the group had some kind of cultural cohesion. But you guys are once again going to have to act like adults and work your problems out.
People are really struck by my suggestion. I am not talking about forced segregation. I am talking voluntarily. I mean you have seen all the insane fruitcake racists here. They can have a space of their own. I mean they are having so many issues. The racial problem we are having, they do not want to work on. Well, we can take that problem away. Then we can work out these issues. Because this stuff is difficult.
Yeah, Australians support you guys. We wish you well, but ground rules have to be laid down, if you want a brighter future, you guys are going to have to have someone who can pull you all together, and forget about the racists. Nothing you can do for people who are filled with hate.
We no longer have that guy. The only person capable was MLK. He was murdered. And there has been no one since. Well, maybe Bobby Kennedy. But he was killed too.
We have no one who can speak to the nation. So I propose giving the racists a victory of sorts. They can have their zone or zones.
Don't be so easy to give up, MLK might have said you were the one, you are all the ones, protesting and destroying stuff, ain't what the solution is. It's time to consolidate and extricate what is not useful or disfunctional, your an intelligent man Roland, but when you talk about MLK, you living in past. No one can live forever, you got to take their teaching, and put it to use.
How am I giving up? We have too much work to do. The funny thing is people think that unracist folks have no issues with communication or understanding. My meetup group is proof that is not true. We do not understand one another. In my group we had Muslims and Sikhs, Koreans, Chinese, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, "Whites", South Africans. . .
it was a freaking mess.
Throwing racists in that mix is counterproductive. Racist are the dumbest among us. For them, everything is so simple.
I just watched the documentary Netflix Tv show Medal of honour, Edward Carter is a good reason why America should solve it's problems peacefully. Single handedly taking out a machine gun nest, and anti tank defences in one decisive attack on a German strong point in world war 2, obviously a born soldier, the American government refused to re enlist him in the army during the Mcartthy era, and because he was a black man he was never recommended for a medal of honour. The worst days were in the past.
That's ridiculous and its sad to know that people actually think like this. We tried that and it turns out that segregation is a form of oppression for people of color. The communities of black people would be under funded and poor because the people in positions of power are white the majority of the time. People of color don't want to be cast out of society. Why is it so unattainable to live together as equals? We have been trying for generations; when will we as a society be able to look past the color of a persons skin and just see a fellow human.
Well, it wouldn't be any different than now. And you could have someone like Farrakhan, if he is still around, if he could get a high enough population count, he could justify a zone for him and whatever groups he wanted to have there. The same thing for Asians or Muslims or Christians, etc.
A zone where people could live and not be so burdened with having to treat other people with respect and dignity.
I think the moment we give up on striving for a society that demands all people be treated with respect and dignity is the moment we lose our humanity. Maybe we can never get there but the shared desire to attain equality will keep us together.
The SJWs that have taken over the democrat party want. Only instead of pushing segregation because of racial superiority they push it for "racial sensitivity".
@genuinlysensitive Does every racist just speak absolute nonsense? I mean, there is no winning with you guys. You would think you would be happy living in your state where you can just have nothing but "White" people. As you guys have continually said, the problem is multiculturalism, the media, George Soros, etc. You can have your own community, and dress up in military fatigues, and you can have FoxNews and One America News blasting all day. You can have only hockey and rugby playing on tv. You can just watch "White" cinema.
I love when people project! You claim we need to have a RACIST system of segregation and then call anyone who disagress a "Racist"! I have said NONE of the things you accuse me of, think nothing what you accused me of (and I HATE Faux News!), but you have openly called for segregation! Just thought I'd let you know the Antifa thugs that started the violence are being exposed agian, and the officer has been charged with murder of George Floyd.
@genuinlysensitive What's the problem now? Your widdle feelings hurt? I mean you just talked about SJWs. You can live a land there SJWism is outlawed. What's wrong with that? You can live with the like-minded folk and be happy!
Every black country is a failed state How would you stop black hungry hoards from invading white areas. Black people can't look after themselves, Black people have always seeked us out like cockroaches.
@Sparks32 What does that have to do with my solution? You insane racist freaks always rant about how "Blacks" would fail. Well prove it. Advocate for my solution, then you will have all the proof you need to claim that we are inferior to you.
You guys would have this zone that's all happy and good and not failing.
This is both very interesting but also highly disturbing to me. Very unsettling, I can just see so much violence and wars between the segregated nations like that but maybe you have a point. I know I would never want to live in a racially segregated area. I wouldn't mind if all the alt-right guys had their own nation though. They could mass produce blow up dolls for some income. :D
Oh integrated. I wouldn't change anything. I have too many friends from too many different groups. And I don't understand this deal of violence. That makes no sense to me. I would say there could be buffer zones because militant groups will definitely want to build barriers with weapons and stuff. But a neutral zone should render all that stuff useless.
I was thinking about your idea some more today, wondering why the white supremacists (or other racists) wouldn't be interested in your idea but it seems like an ideal solution to them. It's probably because then they couldn't feel superior to anyone else around them. They'd all be losers. Also, they'd have no immigrants to do crappy jobs and pay under terrible wages, under the table.
Remember, race was created by the British to oppress the Scots.
In the 16th century Scotland and particularly the Gaelic speaking Highlands were characterised as lawless, savage and filled with wild Scots. As seen in Camden's account to promote an image of the nation as a wild and barbarous people:
They drank the bloud [blood] out of wounds of the slain: they establish themselves, by drinking one anothers bloud [blood] and suppose the great number of slaughters they commit, the more honour they winne [win] and so did the Scythians in old time. To this we adde [add] that these wild Scots, like as the Scythians, had for their principall weapons, bowes and arrows. Camden (1586)
It's certainly a good addition to the divisive 'us vs them' culture that the mobster president nurtures. I believe that civilized people should come to realize that this would only fosters more distrust and anger. I believe this notion was already tried by the Scotus ruling Plessy vs Ferguson in the late 1800s. Of course it was a dismal failure- Civilized people can live in diverse cultures. It can even be enjoyable, not to mention enlightening. All that remains is that people evolve to become more civilized. and I won't hold my breath.
I just believe there are people who refuse to be "civilized". They need the fake reality of race. We can give it to them. And save ourselves. Because in truth, even among those who want a better future, we have a ton of work to do. And here we are. . . in the course of a few days, we have gone 70 years backwards in time.
I mean if that's your justification that it'd be less costly than riots and stuff and might help, wouldn't it just be more costly and effective to just kill all black people? I mean if we're going to stop racism by using racism, then let's go with the cheaper and more effective option first. I mean say what you will about the Nazis, but their solution to fixing their racism problems by using racism sure was effective and final. And they sure did have a good dress sense.
Or, you know, we could deal with race relations issues instead by maybe not advocating racism? That might be a start?
I didn't say it's more racist, i said it is racist. You're an idiot if you think said advocacy will work in your interest.
Yeah, but that's the fun with minorities, they're a minority. The majority vote for said final solution tomorrow, and you'll have a hard time bustin a cap in said drone firebombing harlem. That's why the 2nd amendment is idiotic in the modern age of military grade weaponry. If they didn't let the south go, you're deluded if you think a racist population that you're advocating for is gonna divide it's nation to stop it's minority from smashing up their own communities.
Acknowledging racism is not racist. I have not converted one single racist in my entire life. Racists cling to their ideals as though their very lives depend upon them.
So seeing that convincing racists is impossible.
Seeing that we have much to do in terms of integration, multiculturalism, understanding each other and planning a future.
Seeing that we have been dealing with these issues for hundreds of years.
We need a solution. We need to stop playing with this problem. It will not go away. We will never mature. So let us find a way to deal with the problem where racists can feel somehow safe or valued or whatever their issue is.
Give them a home where they can choose their media, their neighbors, their lifestyle., etc. They don't have to deal with forced integration. They don't have to watch interracial relationships on television any longer.
They can live in a racial paradise full of military fatigues, ak-47s, confederate flags, or whatever they choose.
We will see if they are truly a minority. Maybe this will be a good exercise. Perhaps there won't even be enough to form a zone. In that case they would be publicly embarrassed.
"Acknowledging racism is not racist. I have not converted one single racist in my entire life" - No, advocating racial segregation is racist. If you'd like to convince a racist to stop being racist, have you considered trying to not be racist yourself?
"racists can feel somehow safe or valued or whatever their issue is" - And all you to do is start a race war by advocating racial segregation. I like your thinking, it's outside the box; call it "Operation Darwin Award".
"Racists cling to their ideals as though their very lives depend upon them. So seeing that convincing racists is impossible." - That's what people tend to do, they tend to care about their belief systems and resist being forcefully converted. But impossible you say? No, all that really says is you should probably revaluate your methodology, leaving behind the preaching and arguing might be a good start. Then maybe follow it up by paying attention to those with methodology that does work very well. For example, take me, i haven't demanded you do anything, I've merely just decided to talk to you, listen and give you logical options (and the results of them) for what you want. At no point I've demanded you believe what i believe, because that's for you to decide. Doesn't that feel a lot better than just being told you're a bad person for having beliefs i find harmful?
If you are genuinely serious about finding solutions, then i invite you to watch the following;
One is of a former grand wizard of KKK member and how and why he decided dedicate his life against racism, and the other is of a black jazz player who in 20 years managed to convince over 200 members of the KKK to turn in their robes.
How am I advocating for racial segregation? I don't want segregation. But no matter what you say here, there are people who do. Give them that opportunity. Stop trying to force racists to abandon their beliefs. This has cost the nation too much grief. It is 2020. Slavery ended over 150 years ago and they have not been convinced yet.
Yeah, I don't understand the race war thing. Just because you say there will be a race war doesn't mean there will be a race war. As for "war", turn on the television.
Yes, it is practically impossible.
I don't really subscribe to a "methodology". It should not be our job to convince racists that they are wrong. We have way bigger fish to fry. So I disagree with you that I have any obligation. I am not MLK. Neither is any other "Black" person. We are just regular people. . . just like "White" people.
I watched those videos before you even posted them. And they are not solutions. People have been trying to convince racists for hundreds of years. It has not worked.
I am not sure how this is not serious. I am dead serious.
They already do have the opportunity, people can go where they want. What you're advocating is some people being denied this area of that area based on skin colour. How is that not racial segregation?
I'm not advocating forcing anyone to abandon their beliefs. Far as I'm concerned you can think or say whatever you want about a group of people, it's the actions themselves i care about. Black, white, whatever; you commit a crime, you go to jail. Fra as i'm concerned the biggest racial issue i can see in the states isn't anything in the law, but the fact the law enforcers in their actions support this notion of no go areas. Without law enforcement in an area, there is no economic security for that area, hence gang territory just gets worst and spreads.
Please stop assigning this nonsense to me. A racist zone will be run by racists. Talk to them about what they will allow. Talk to them about letting in "Blacks", Asians, or Latinos. Maybe they will write exemptions. I don't know. Maybe they will say Candace Owes and Michelle Malkin can come in but no one else. Members of Stormfront have long praised Thomas Sowell. It is their show.
But racists claim you are. Racists claim the media is trying destroy them. Immigration is killing off their "race". They are blamed for everything. They are under assault. And when they convinced they are under assault people die!
Looks like it could end badly and cause some trouble in a long run.
1. First problem is fighting for land. You may put a race in a piece of land, but maybe they prefer another, however other race might be there. This could be a reason for war. 2. Second problem states developing a very differentiated culture. Not bad at first, but could help to the arise of nacionalist movements of those states and cause them to want to leave the US, which is something to avoid, as a splitted US wouldn't be the US, just weak small countries.
I don't think it's easy to solve. It would cause less trouble to put anyone who can't coexist fighting in an amphitheater until none of them is standing.
1. i don't know why they would prefer another. But we can work out picking a place.
2 . I don't see how this is a bad thing. It seems like a lot of our problems would have been solved if we let the Confederacy cede back in the Civil War. Maybe something could have been done to negotiate a peace. Well, that's probably pie in the sky. But maybe something could have been done in the decades that followed.
Maybe, it is always interesting to see the responses. Especially from the racists themselves.
The Confederacy never had a chance. The industrial and economic power of the North could never be matched by the South.
Interestingly, have you done any reading on the "economics of slavery"? One of the real drivers of emancipation was a realization that slavery was not only wrong, it inhibited profitability. No matter how many slaves an owner may have (with the accompanying overhead costs), they can't begin to match the power of automation and leveraging the use of machinery. This is the same reason we are replacing workers with technology (robots, et al) today.
1. People could fight to get the territories that are richer in resources or have a better working industry and so be richer and more powerful than other states. Unless they are very civilized, controlling resources is a reason many countries participate in a war.
2. You might have "solved" a social problem, but you would have greater economical problems. All countries, when they split up, get in a economical depression. USA is very strong economically, that's one of its strengths. If you split it, you would lose all the power that right now has.
I have a vague idea of American Civil War as a European, I can't imagine as well as you how a different development of the war could have affected to American society. All my points are based on how non homogeneous territories affect to European countries, and how territories splitting have created poor states.
For example, I'm from Spain. We have 3 other languages beside Spanish. The people on territories with different languages that are richer than the rest have political nacionalist movements that want split up. In the 80's it was Basque Country. They had a terrorist group and put bombs in public buildings to push the government into giving privileges to their territory. They killed 864 people until the group was dissolved. Now we have Catalonia, but thankfully they aren't putting bombs, just whining and trying to convince other countries they are oppressed and their demands are fair.
Then you have eastern Europe countries, that ended in depressed economies after splitting up. I think they are better now, still they aren't an strong economy internationally, which translates as, they don't have as much power over world decisions and they lack of some comfort richer countries have.
@KrakenAttackin And have you ever studied southern life beyond the practice of African American slavery? Did you ever study the philosophy behind why "Blacks" had to be slaves. Why they have to be sub-human? Race does not spring from the well of hate. It merely enables hate. Racism springs from the well of ignorance and indifference.
In their own words,
"Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
I mean, this is your belief system. You should know this. Racists claim that racism isn't about hatred. It is just non-PC, anti-SJW truth.
1. You keep seeing these places as nations. They are zones. They will have access to all the resources they wish. But racists are weird people. So I don't how much interaction they want with the outside world. Their entire point is that there is a conspiracy to wipe them out.
2. The country is not split. These are zones. Still integrated. Well, at least as much as racists will allow. Racists hardly want to leave America.
Oh, I watched Hardtalk one time!!! I listened to a debate about this. It was fascinating. They were discussing the referendum in Catalonia. And I travel through Europe on occasion. And traveling through Eastern Europe was the most fascinating exploration I have ever done.
Now understand this, American racists have no idea about the issues between ethnic groups in Europe. They have no idea about the histories or the specific identities. And they do not want to know. For racists here, race simplifies everything. Or so they think.
@KrakenAttackin It has nothing to do with negative experiences.
A racist may never see a "Black" person in their entire lifetime. . and believe they are just a race of people with negative beliefs and behaviors.
"Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
That statement is based upon what he believed to only be a moral and ethical truth. His belief in "White" supremacy was a spiritual and philosophical awakening.
But, what I'm trying to point out is that I don't believe racist people will stay quiet. Sooner or later they will find a reason to cause trouble. For me knowing history of certain territories or not doesn't make you act a certain way or not. History is a diary of human civilization that ultimately depicts human nature. The few I know tells me that racist people tend to feel superior and entitled to domain more territory and feel that other different races shouldn't be allowed any sort of power or privilege.
They may. Like racists traditionally in America have always been obsessed with "Black" people. Even as racism affects other non-"White" groups with devastating effects. We have always been trained to think "Blacks" have highest poverty rate. We don't. American Indians have a rate of almost 25%. 1 in four American Indians live below the poverty line.
So we would probably have a neutral zone between us and them. A demilitarized zone. And I think the effect is easy to predict. Racists without race to rely on to create their mythological world, would then start sub-dividing. Who knows exactly what standard they would use. But they would turn on each other and create different levels of "Whiteness" or use some other standard. Their belief system is founded on the "us/them" strategy for creating a society. They create this dynamic wherever they go. They did it in South Africa, in India, in China. . . you understand they even did it in England. When they claimed the Scottish were uncivilized savages. And the world got introduced to a hero named William Wallace.
Those facts are interesting. I didn't know Native American community was the poorer in the US. Well, I didn't know exactly what group was, I only was sure it wasn't white Christians or white Jews.
I didn't thought of racist people in an all white society to develop new ways of racism either. Sounds interesting, sort of, "reddish white is less white than other whites and is not as superior". Or stuff like "blond hair is superior than other hair colors". Would be fun if they had weirder ideas like "Protruding nipples are the worst. Flat nipples are way far superior". However, beign serious it's not that weird that instead of racism there's xenophobia. Like a white descendent from English people treating as an inferior a white descendent from the Irish people.
I wonder what's in human nature to have that weird need of having an enemy to fight, even if it's irrational. Or where does it start that chauvinistic feeling that makes some people feel that everything they are make them superior and anything they aren't must be inferior.
@KrakenAttackin Why do racists think it is effective to just call everyone racist? Racism is specific. I don't know where you developed this philosophy or who taught to you. But you can choose to see human beings are just human beings. . . at any time in your life.
You don't have to choose to see race. . . or to pretend racial groups have different behaviors.
@KrakenAttackin Says the insane crazy racist who claimed the "Confederacy" was a good thing.
Racists need to be studied in a lab. You lie basically every single post, you accuse people of having your beliefs. You openly state race makes for different behavior and beliefs. You tell us about the supposed superior races, then you try to convince everyone that nonsense is truth.
At the end, you lie and say I said that.
Why are almost all of you liars? And why are almost all of you cowards?
Uh... no, I never said the Confederacy was a good thing. I said the Confederacy never had a chance against the industrial might of the North. Perhaps your 85 IQ lacks reading comprehension. Sorry I didn't post IN ALL BOLD LETTERS TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU TO READ.
My bottom line: Blacks have been given every opportunity, billions in cash, and you have squandered it all. I am done with you as a people. You deserve nothing more. It is almost like nature is saying blacks are a failure and should vanish like the dinosaurs. It is only due to the non-stop financial life-support by white people that you are not living in mud huts.
I have nothing more to say to you, it's a waste of breath and effort.
@KrakenAttackin But you said it like the confederacy deserved a chance. The confederacy was a racist theocracy. It did not deserve a chance. Though now I see the logic in allowing racists to separate. You can't convince racists that they are only human beings..
It does not work.
Your bottom line is that you are a lying piece of racist trash. You claim "Blacks" have squandered billions what money has a racist ever given me?
You are pitiful. You are a coward. And you are a liar.
The United States had that. There were white neighbourhoods, white's only community pools, you couldn't get a hamburger in a restaurant if you were black, you couldn't sleep in a downtown hotel if you were black, and segregation was the rule in many states. It took decades to get out of that. The ideal is to treat people as people, regardless of skin colour. It should be easier to do that than to go back to racial segregation. Racial segregation doesn't eliminate racial prejudice, it gives it a basis for its increase. It should be easier for US police officers not to shoot black people because of distrust or lean their knee on their neck in spite of being told the man can't breathe.
We are not talking about forced segregation and Jim Crow. That's why the title is partial racial segregation. This is a voluntary act. And we have never eliminated racial prejudice. What we thought was possible has proven impossible. So like the ending in the Matrix. We need to find a way to live with them peacefully.
Oh, bullshit. Your suggestion is just racism with a polite face. And this has also been said and done before. A 1959 American play, Raisin in the Sun, put these issues out. The polite face of keeping out other races. Listen to yourself. "We have to find a way to live with them peacefully." Them. Them They are your fellow citizens. They aren't asking much. Equality before the law is an American virtue.
You are just being emotional. Equality before the law did not save the victims of police violence. Nor is it comforting to those who have experienced police brutality. This is conflicting is costing us lives. We have tree of life massacre, the murders in St. Jose, I could go on and on.
It is time for racists to be given their space. Let them do their thing so we can do ours.
You don't roll back societal advances due to hatred on the part of a minority. You're finally acknowledging why the riots have taken place. The solution isn't apartheid. The solution is living up to American ideals.
I'm not trying to win anyone over. I'm simply telling you what the American state stands for. You're not trying to corral racists. You're suggesting apartheid.
we all started out one race.. some female out of africa i think science has pinpointed.. and with the modern world modern trasportaiont and haveing moves some slaves around in the past agasint hteir will the world is once again becoming one color.. so this race crap is stupid. . it's a temporary aberation in the history of humanity. we're all one race.. the human race.. anyone who thinks different only see's skin deep incapable of intelligent thought.
Yeah, no. We aren't doing that. And we also already kind of already do. There are some areas where you get beat for being a person of color or white.
Separation does nothing and would resolve nothing. It anything, it would make itnqorse cause then you actually have a lot more deaths, because as soon as you see someone even remotely not looking like someone on "your side", you'll die.
How would it lead to nothing? You can just browse the threads at GaG. Look at the complaint about the media, "Blacks", etc. Why not give them a racial paradise that is free from all the things they dread? How would it encourage more deaths? Would racists kill each other? Why would you care?
This is voluntary. No one is forced to live anywhere. How in the world is it encouraging people to do anything? They would be in their paradise. They should be happy if anything.
I don't see how any of this makes things worse. Racists were never more angry than when Obama was in office.
All I'm going to say is this. Regardless of your stance on politics, police brutality, or racial injustice, in a homogeneous society it would be a non-issue. There would be no killing of blacks by white cops or vice versa.
Those who enjoy diversity would be perfectly free to continue enjoying it. Those who would prefer to live among their own kind should have a place to go where they can be left alone. It would also be a win for good tolerant liberals of all races because all of the "racists" would be gone somewhere else!
When cats and dogs fight, we separate them. When blacks and whites fight, we insist "can't we all just get along?"
I don't know why people keep insisting on things that are not true. We know that the concept of race was used by the British to claim the Scots were savages. We know that the two biggest wars in history started as conflicts within Europe. We know that all around the world ethnic strife is the norm. Conflicts are only racial where race is the social standard for division.
So why does fruitcake racism insist that race is an objective reality?
I don't know.
I just know if we can get them out of this situation and let them build their racial paradise, we can get on with the conversations and discussions we should have had decades ago.
I believe this would be an important step in de-escalating inter-racial violence and hatred. Even if you can make the case that there is no scientific / biological basis for the idea of race, you still have the issue of different cultures, ethnic groups, religions, political viewpoints, etc.
Even people who have no personal inclination toward intolerance are getting sick and tired of the racial tension / racism / whatever you want to call it. It's not that they don't like other races, it's that they don't like living in a toxic society. So as far as I'm concerned, whatever it takes to de-escalate the conflict.
I never said that "Whites" and "Blacks" in America don't have different cultures. I mean sir. . . I already said we have much to talk about.
But racists do not own a race. "White" racists do not own "White" people. "Black" racists do not own "Black" people. Let racists build their racial paradises.
We need dialog in America because we have different cultures. We need to navigate that divide and get to understanding.
Racism is the art. . . of not understanding. It is the language of ignorance. As for people getting tired, then let them go to the racial paradise. Because getting to know each other is hard. I should know. My friends are from every ethnic group imaginable.
I agree, there needs to be dialogue. It needs to be respectful and civil, but it needs to be honest. The way I see it, a large part of the problem is that many White people are so afraid of being called racist (White fragility) that they will not speak their minds on the issues of race and racism. When it comes to identity politics, liberal (woke) Whites tend to get involved on the side of people of color / migrants & refugees / LGBTQIA, while conservative / libertarian Whites tend to avoid it altogether; they believe in the idea that we should abandon our own separate identities and united under the banner of "we're all Americans." But for Whites to get involved in identity politics on their own side is still not socially acceptable. But I digress...
You are also correct to say that White racists do not own the White race and Black racists do not own the black race. Whites are extremely divided among themselves, mostly along political and ideological lines, not to mention differences in social and economic class. I cannot speak for blacks because I am not black, but I am sure there are internal divisions as well in the African-American community.
Part of the difficulty is that conversations about race and racism tends to easily go in one of two different directions: they tend to be either tense, hostile, and accusatory, or alternatively, timid, fragile, and overly cautious.
I am optimistic that racial harmony and cultural understanding can be achieved on a personal level and in small groups. I am not so optimistic when it comes to applying it on a large scale societal level. In Canada and many European countries, there are very strict laws against discrimination and hate speech; diversity, inclusion, and equality are constantly promoted in education and advertising, but the underlying racial/ethnic/religious tensions still live under the surface.
I think being afraid to be called racist is silly. If you are not racist, you are not racist. It is not that complicated. Look I am probably homophobic. But I am not afraid of a conversation where I tell homosexuals I am uncomfortable around them. I know I have work to do. If they are offended I am sorry, but this is where I am. As for liberals being involved with whatever. . . liberals can be very racist and conservatives can be very "liberal" for a lack of a better term.
But in order to understand that one must understand what race is and how racism is defined. The definitions that are popular are not the truth.
As for abandoning all identities, I don't any real conservative who believes that. That is not realistic. If you can't build a respect for another group identity, then you are better off in a racial paradise. Why is it so hard to show another group the bare minimum in acknowledgment? It is just simple tolerance.
Of course there are internal divisions in every race, because race does not exist as an objective standard. We choose it here in the U. S. And it is frustrating to continuously hear people talk about it as an objective standard. It is merely a cultural bias parading around as an objective norm. Once we embrace the truth about it we can have constructive dialogue.
And I think we underestimate the power of culture. I can't convince a racist to see me. But I can meet people from different cultures and form bonds. Anyone can do that. I was in Turkey out of gas, lost and stuck on the hillside. Those people made sure me and my girlfriend got back home.
I exaggerated a little bit when I said conservatives think we should all abandon our identities. I should refine that point a little bit. When I watch Fox News, listen to talk radio, or converse with my conservative friends and family members, the main emphasis seems to be a form of civic-nationalism. Civic-nationalists tend to emphases loyalty to the country as a whole, rather than loyalty toward a particular race, culture, or ethnicity. Their ideal is for everyone to unite under the banner of "we're all Americans."
Whites are afraid to be called racist because it brings a very high risk of being fired from their jobs, socially ostracized by their friends, or alienated from their families.
As to your point that race is not an objective reality, I will concede that there are a lot of gray areas. There are a lot of racially mixed people in South and Central America. There are a lot of racially ambiguous people in places such as southern Europe, northern Africa, and western and central Asia. However, as someone once said, just because there is dawn and dusk that doesn't mean there is no night or day. I forget who said that, but the point is that just because there are some groups of people that are difficult to categorize, that doesn't mean the categories in and of themselves are invalid.
Finally, I wanted to respond to your point:
"But in order to understand that one must understand what race is and how racism is defined. The definitions that are popular are not the truth."
One thing that annoys me in the conversation about racism is that it keeps shifting goalposts. So here's what I think we need:
1. A clear, unambiguous, consistent definition of race. 2. A clear, unambiguous, consistent definition of racism. 3. A realistic and practical plan for overcoming the problem of racism. 4. Ground rules for facilitating an IRL conversation about race and racism.
Yeah, I think people define civic nationalism differently. And we can't keep pretending we are using the same definitions and have the same expectations. We need a conversation that moves us to a better place.
No, that is not true. We have some "Whites" calling the police on "Black" people for nonsensical things. "Blacks" have been dying at the hands of police officers for simple traffic stops for decades. How can these "Whites" be afraid to be called when "Black" people are dealing with deadly effects of racism at the hands of police officers.
What was this woman's expectation when she called the police? Was she afraid someone was going to see the video, she her lie, and get her fired? I mean, she lied and expected the police to come and arrest this man based upon her lie.
It isn't that people are racially mixed. Even that language is crazy. "Black" Americans, the supposed mono-racial group averages somewhere between 25% to 35% European ancestry. Some people are so brainwashed, they don't know their DNA test could show European ancestry in both their matrilineal and patrilineal lines. With no direct connetion to Africa at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzaPnV0zzfQ
So what does it mean to be racially mixed, when almost every "Black" person in America has European DNA? What is the critical mass where a person becomes "White" and not something else? What is the percentage? Because if we are no longer talking genetics and only phenotype that makes things much more nonsensical.
The point is your demarcs for what constitutes race are arbitrary.
Is this person Russian? Or Chinese? Asian? "White"?
What race is she? And does it really matter if we know her nationality?
1. I am not sure why you are asking me this. You know what race is. You what it means to you. So please tell me the definition of race.
2. This would be easy once you established what race is.
3. I don't think we can overcome it. I think we have to find a way to live with racists. That's why I made the proposal.
4. That I am not certain of. Racists cannot be reasoned with in my experience. But we need a way to compromise. We need a person that racists consider to be a leader.
I watched both videos. As a general principle, I don't think people should be fired from their jobs for things they did outside of work. I've always been against drug testing for that reason. If someone lights up a joint while at work, then the boss has a right to fire them. But the idea that someone parties on Friday night, then is surprised with a random drug test Monday morning, and ends up getting fired because of something they did on their own time and on their own dime, I believe is wrong.
As to the second video, I would say the main take away here is that a lot of people have been incorrectly categorized as Black, when they should have been categorized as mixed.
Do you think her company cares about her views? I am certain someone like this did not become racist overnight. I am sure she had her views for a long time. But let's skip all of that.
If a person worked for me and he expressed racist views he would be gone. If he expressed anit-Semitism, he would be gone. If he expressed homophobic views, he would be gone.
Because I have "Black", Jewish, and Gay clients. I am not going to lose my contract because of his inability to use discretion. I will cut him lose and keep my contracts and my income. That is capitalism. It does not favor PCdom. It is benign.
As for drug testing, I don't do that. I have heard of drug testing to get a job. But I don't do that either. I do my character assessment and that's all.
As for the "mixed" issue, why should they be categorized as anything other than African-American? Race does not define non-"Whiteness". It only tells "White" people who they are. It can't tell me or anyone woman in that video who they are. One of them may choose to embrace their European heritage. That would be between them and that European group.
Many "Whites" in American use race. And they do not accept that "Black" people have significant "White" heritage. That's why Obama can be received in Ireland as one of the Irish. But not as "White" in America as one of the "Whites". Race makes one determination and one only.
I don't know. Different cultures have different standards for entry. If he was part-American Indian, he would have to prove he had the "Blood". Then he could talk to a specific tribe about what was required.
The woman who became Miss Japan is accepted by some but certainly not by all.
The funny thing is that we are race-obsessed. Japanese don't just reject "Black"/Asians. But Japanese/Koreans, Chinese/Japanese. . . etc also. Even a "White"/Japanese says she has issues.
This is impossible and would cost trillions of dollars. You would have territory wars as well. It would have worked back in the 19th century though. We have no choice but to accept diversity thanks to the liberals who thought it was a good idea to accept every ethnicity in the world. The only way for your plan to work out is through civil war. I highly doubt you're the kind of guy willing to spill your own blood for such a cause.
How would it cost anymore than the billions we are sustaining in damage to our nation? How many riots have we had? How many lawsuits? How many federal, state, and city dollars are spent on mitigating these issues?
I would have thought a lot of people would be more supportive. Why are everyone's feelings so hurt by this?
My feelings aren't hurt. I'm not against equal segregation but this plan doesn't seem possible. Millions would have to move and leave their homes and property behind. Who's going to compensate them to move? You can't exactly split a nation in two without war. I could understand segregated neighborhoods, stores, schools, etc. This would be more realistic. I would also be in favor of only black cops policing black neighborhoods.
What difference does it make it the segregation is equal or not? Racists of every color and stripe claim that their race will understand. So they will have the chance to prove it. David Duke said given a few minutes with any "White" person he can make that person agree that his points are reasonable. Farrakhan says if he build a "Black" state "Black" people would flock to it.
Let them prove it. And if one ends up being wrong and looking like a fool, let us laugh at him.
Those who are willing to work on this dream of a true American society need to get to work. We had this belief that we could build a society based upon an idea of freedom for all. We need to get on with that conversation, because that is going to be hard, it is going to be complex and challenging.
This is not a split. We stay one nation. There will just be no go zones for certain "races" or whatever.
I mean, its complicated. Racists only think they are simple. When they have to define their beliefs explicitly, you see just how crazy they are.
I think you're underestimating the cost of forcibly moving people around the country. You'd be spending a huge amount of capital on a social experiment with an uncertain outcome. In fact it's one of the nuttiest ideas I ever heard.
This kind of thing works well in a workshop where the aim is to promote discussion but simple solutions almost never work in practice.
I keep forgetting that people here are a lot younger than me. You guys don't know we forced integration back in the 70s and 80s. That caused a lot of turnmoil. We forced busing. We forced integration of housing, jobs, sports, media, etc.
It took billions.
And look at us now.
I will say this, we definitely need discussion. But not with racists. I think they have decided to check out.
A big issue would be deciding who gets what track of land. Displacing current occupants would be enough to cause civil war potentially. Look at what blacks in South Africa are doing to farm owning whites... wholesale slaughter condoned by the government as part of land appropriation.
Who said anything about displacing people? Say you choose to live in the segregated area, I am certain something can be done to reimburse you for property and moving expenses. And I am certain private investors would be interested in these areas also.
I have the nonsense from racists about what is happening in South Africa for years. Yet these same racists were find with apartheid. So please spare me.
Anyway, in your segregated area, you can have your military fatigues, ak47s, tanks or whatever you think you need to feel safe. I could care less. But there will be a neutral zone setup.
You'd think the Trumptards will be all over this idea... unless they are so fearful and hateful that they hate the idea of non-whites being on the same landmass...
Of course, some are still trying to say that they have never been racist... it's all fake history... by the way, I personally LOVE the "KKK and Neo-Nazis are really left-wing" argument
That's the hilarious thing. We noticed this back in the 90s. Most racists were livid about this idea!
Haha!! That's thing that is hilarious. They could live in a zone there they could embrace all the crazed racist mess they wish. They can run the society however they pleased, but they hate this idea.
Are we one country or multiple subsets? We would not have any shred of a national identity if we allowed something like this. We already have too many problems with people indiscriminately exercising their 'freedoms' that impinge upon others.
Racists do not have a national identity outside of "Whiteness". A racist can wear an nazi uniform while carrying the confederate flag and claim he is the most patriotic American.
Well, racists are not about to get over anything. They are mad that their belief system is not apart of the conversation. And as much as they complain about SJWs, "Blacks", Feminism, etc. they do not want to be alone with themselves.
Nah that won't help we already almost have partial segregation, just look at affirmative action and the NCAAP white people are banned and actively discriminated against.
That's an absolutely stupid idea. Once you give them an inch they'll take a mile. This is exactly what the media wants. They profit from a race war, this only gives them more money
Segregation means divide. If you are divided like we are right now, you only get a war. That's just common sense. I'm saying the media would profit off of all the fighting that a concept like this would naturally cause. The fact that you even promoted this idea is because of the media funded race war. Your solution isn't a solution. When the entire thing is analyzed, it's just an exacerbation of a current problem. You can't expect progress while giving a massive amount of leeway for regression
That makes nonsense. Is Europe in war? Are we with Canada? Mexico? We are separated from them via borders.
This is nothing but allowing racists to build the zone they always claimed they needed. In this zone, they can have only the media they want, the entertainment, the race or whatever.
And it would be a lot more peaceful than what we have now. Because what we have now is the beginnings of war. Our nation is on fire. And people need to stop pretending that things have been all right for the last sixty. Look at the riots in your city. That proves that was a lie.
Are ANY of those part of our civilization? No, think before you speak. People are opportunists, you give them an inch, they take a mile it's common sense which you clearly lack. You seriously think Jim Crow went well? It wasn't until we got rid of that that things got better but now the media wants divide again. Segregation doesn't help. We've been in a worse place since Obama, that's when shit started going down hill again because this concept of race being constantly pushed in everyone's face. All you'd be doing is reiterating racial differences instead of letting people come together as one. Then the idea spreads, do you not know how much the racial tension in the US has spread to other countries? I would assume not
This is not Jim Crow. You are imagining things. Racists see race coming out of the walls. They don't like integration. Just ask them.
So give them a place where they can call home. What happens if another Obama is elected? You will be seeing race everywhere. But you can have a racial paradise where you won't even see his face. You will see the news media that you decide to see. CNN won't even be available. No Hollywood movies!
You will only get like Turner Classic movies or whatever you guys decide.
It should be your utopia. I don't understand why is this a bad plan. Or why you think this leads to war.
You guys will be having your military fatigues, barricades, ak-47. Shit, you can even have tanks. I don't care.
I'd rather live with someone who isn't my race but who does share my values than live with someone who is, but doesn't. Heck, I wouldn't mind being the only member of my race if I'm in a community that shares my values.
Well, the racists I've talked to claim that race usually defines values. Most will admit that it doesn't always determine values, but that it effectively does in most cases. I've heard other say that even if people share the same values, but are members of different races that they shouldn't intermarry because any attraction they feel is unnatural and unhealthy. Don't ask them about same sex couples.
Values often follow race because in the past you had villages and cities with generations never leaving or mixing with other cites and ways of life. Judging values based on race was fairly reliable for that reason, but still risky given individual outliers.
In the modern world, anyone can meet anyone and start a family together. That mixes a lot of different lifestyles and value systems, not to mention races. People who don't like the values of the people where they live can leave now, while they couldn't in the past.
Mostly I think racism comes from association. People see other people doing something that they don't like, and start to assume that other people who look similar will behave in the same way. It's a general rule that applies to most people - whoever you are, you are going to be judged for better or worse because of the actions of other people who look like you.
It's really true for men and women. It's easy for men to set their expectations for women based on the behavior of other women that they know, and vis versa. It's always a risk though.
Well most racists have exceptions. Candance Owens, Michelle Malkin, Larry Elder, etc. The thing is they always claim the majority have a collective set of behaviors. They use race as a predictor.
Of course values do not follow race. I am not here to convince you that race is nonsensical. I mean, history proves race theory is irrational. I think you are citing cultural differences. And on that I would agree, travel makes for mixing of cultures.
And no racism does not come from association. Go back to racists. They will tell you, their observations are based upon logic, facts and objectivity. They will explain to you that while other grouping methods are subjective, theirs is common sense and scientific.
Your analysis does not explain two world wars, the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Japan's animosity towards other Asian countries, African genocides, etc.
I support this, because history has shown time and time again that different races cannot coexist peacefully. And there is a reason white Christian societies and more advanced and have less crime.
I'm not racist. I just speak up when there are injustices committed against whites. And it is true that multiculturalism doesn't work. If you believe it does, you are extremely naive. This is not true. There are groups in South Africa and the US who support creating a white only state.
Oh of course you are racist. But at least you get it. You don't like certain races. . . and you do not wish to be around those races. That's the important part. If I claimed that "Blacks" were better than "Whites", then it would make sense for me to segregate.
That ain't me.
I can't do that.
But I know this much. Talking to a racist is like talking to a brick wall. But there has to be a way we can reach some kind of compromise.
I don't like their behavior. Whites ARE better than blacks. If they weren't black countries would be just as advanced as white countries. I don't know why it's bad to say that some races are more advanced than others.
I am not here to debate your religion. I am here to ask for your help.
If racists are so certain that "Blacks" are negatively behaved, why would they not voluntarily segregate to a racial paradise?
I don't understand the racist mind. I mean, what is that?
By the way, I know in addition to disliking "Blacks", you dislike Asians. Well, in the U. S, racism is a bit more confused. You have racists who claim Asians are okay. Oddly enough they exclude Asian men. So they would try to bring Asian women into a racial paradise. Just warning you!
Because the government won't allow it, though they did it in South Africa. By Asians I think you mean "Pakistanis". PC media calls them Asians here. I don't dislike anyone. I just agknowledge that whites have contributed more to modern society.
South Africa was forced segregation. It was against the law to force "races" to intermarry. Please try to be logical.
You do not own the "White" race. But you can own the "racist" race. You can own the people who think like you and want the same things. But you cannot make laws taking away other people's freedoms simply because you are racist.
So I came up with a solution. Racists keep saying 'White" is right. Well, here is an opportunity to prove it. You can build a racial zone and it can be the model for a racial paradise.
I mean for 20 years, racists have done the same thing. Try to dictate to the majority who they can marry, have sex with or build families with.
That is not allowed.
I really wish I could give out another mho. This conversation needs to be where everyone can see it.
I will never understand how some one as racist as you can turn around and with a (presumably) straight face claim every one else is racist but him. I literally stated we shouldn't segregate based upon race (something your proposing) and I'm the racist but not you? God your fucking stupid AND insane.
Oh, because I have told you this a thousand times. I don't believe in race. I don't believe in racism. I don't think "White" people have a negative culture. I don't think Germans have a negative culture. I don't think Mexicans have a negative culture. I don't define entire groups of people like your insane backward fruitcake racist butthole and claim they have a negative culture.
Because I know what culture is. I know what it means. I know that races are not culture. Race is a figment of your imagination.
But a racist's imagination is so powerful that it creates a whole fake reality for them. It is how they see people. How they talk to people. It is how they rate people. And they live in the delusion that their racist ideals are not hurtful, are not hateful or divisive.
I created this thread waiting for ultimate question.
What is race?
And only one poster asked that question.
@OddBeMe You asked me this question about who are "Black" people. Now ask this question of @hellionthesagereborn. And note the nonsensical backwards evasive non-responsive answer he gives.
Because this question is not a question for people who are not racist. It is a question that racists have to answer in the creation of their racist state.
I think if someone wants an exclusively one race community they should find like minded people, put their funds together and set up a commune somewhere out in the middle of no where.
Haha! Don't be sad goaded. Dude, we need together. I am coming over to Europe soon. Want to hang out? I don't know if Germany has any restrictions on foreigners?
What about kids growing up in these communities? a) Won't they be brainwashed, and b) Imagine one of them falls in love with someone from a different zone? You'll have a Rome and Juliet situation on your hands.
Children are brainwashed now. Racism is taught. It is learned. And in these "zones", racists can teach their children whatever they wish. I don't think every child we will choose ignorance however. I think they will have problems keeping young ones in their zones. They may have to erect some barriers.
I dunno. Ask the racists? If a "White" is created, ask them. Will they stop their children from leaving? Will they force their citizens to stay or return?
The same goes for if there is a "Black" zone. Or an American Indian zone. Or a Asian zone.
It is up to the zones. Not to the regular population.
I see I need to create another thread because people here keep asking me the questions they never ask of racists. I did not invent race. I am not a racist. I couldn't tell you a single thing about how these zones would be run, what the rules would be, etc.
But you have asked the ultimate question.
1. What is race? I don't know. Ask the racists.
2. What would be the requirements for entry. I have no idea. I have no idea about how a racist would certify a "White" person. Would it be a genetic test? Would they have to prove this through lineage? Would there just be a physical exam? I don't know and I don't care. It's their show. The same goes for the "Black" zone, Asian zone, Latino zone. . .
3. Will there be exemptions? Like could someone like Candace Owens get an exemption and live in the "White" zone with her husband? I don't know. That's up to the racists. Maybe they will let her stay as long as they had no children.
This is a perfect opportunity for racists to show the world exactly what they have been misunderstood about for so long. Racists have always said they are just misunderstood.
No, it doesn't. Think about it. A racist dude can go home. And when he turns on the television, he won't see CNN, MSNBC, BET, HBO, STARZ or any of those media/hollywood channels that he claims cause him so much pain. He can have Turner Class movies, Fox News, One America News Network. . .
He can have a utopia where everyone understands him and he understand everyone else. It would be the nice quiet community that racist claim would be possible without SJWs and "Black" folks and stuff like that.
Roland, I don't know if you are doing some extended sarcasm here. But why is that a good thing? Because those racist white people anyway think that America is their brain-child. So what is the future of America? Not this for sure.
I say let us have racists become uncomfortable, let us have dialogues, let us have the protests and let us do all that's needed to change this nonsense.
Why is it a bad thing? That's what I don't understand. Which racist person have you reformed at GaG? I mean racists are dedicated folks. You have racists here who create multiple accounts just to stir up trouble. They create dozens of threads a day. They call you names and when you are offended they mock you for being offended. If you call them a name back, they become your victim. They will use any dirty trick, any lie, any form of instigation to create problems.
And I figure why not give them what they keep saying they want.
A person who can't see another human as a human, but as a sum of stereotypes, who sees others only by their usefulness to him, shouldn't be let off to have their own country. And sure enough from that "Utopia" they are going to come and create trouble in other places as well if it benefits them. Why should they have that Utopia? It's time to contain the bullshit where it started.
Well, racists as it is wield considerable power. That's why "Black" people can be killed with no accountability. It is just a logical rational conclusion.
So I say get them out of the equation so we can get to doing what we have to do.
Learning to live with one another. Why do we keep thinking we can convince racists?
They do not want to be convinced. In fact, they do not even want to lose the source of the racism.
Of course he is. And again I ask what racist have you ever reformed. A racist isn't a victim any longer after being exposed to the truth again and again.
They have modified their belief system so that objective truth and facts have no effect on them.
So why are we dealing with their attempt to sabotage what you and I have to figure out.
I keep telling you, we have work to do. This is not easy. Understanding each other, relating to each other is hard work.
It's not the solution, in my opinion. It's exactly the type of thing that will make things worse. The solution is to not encourage the type of thinking. But we can agree to disagree here.
One thing we know. Doing noting will make things decidedly worse. I thought these riots would just be in Minneapolis. Then I spent three days talking to angry "Black" folks in my community, trying to clam people down. We have to fix this.
I've been thinking of this. And I think this whole issue is a combination of 1. the frustration the police feel in dealing with community violence often which makes their job harder on a daily basis, and 2. officers like Derek Chauvin who don't have any humanity in them that end up killing black men because of all the pent up frustration.
It's unfair that good men in these communities also have to be seen with the trouble makers. So solving the gang violence is important to fixing the apathy people feel towards black men, because it fixes the general reputation of these areas. Even here on GaG when discussing this, I was asked in another thread -- "How many black men kill black men?" And I understand why the question even came to his mind.
Are black neighborhoods becoming better or worse day by day? Does the government treat these communities fairly in terms of the resources they give? What are the real challenges? I feel this entire country needs education on the experiences that blacks have felt as a community.
Well, I don't think getting better stats will do anything to stop folks from being racist. In terms of these communities, I am kind of a self-empowerment kind of guy. The "Black" community has tremendous wealth. But so many "Blacks" see no responsibility back to the community. That has to change.
I don't live where I am because I have to. I choose to.
The last three nights I was out in the streets. Two nights ago, I encountered a group of young, angry "Black" folk. We must have talked for four hours.
They just do not care. They are constantly fed the lie that no matter what they do it does not matter. It does not matter if they go to school, it does not matter if they steal, it does not matter if they become find jobs.
They will be considered garbage. The police will still treat them unfairly. They will still be labeled as thugs. They will be seen as the worst.
That's why they do not care about "Black" businesses. Why should they?
Who is feeding them this garbage that, nothing they do matters. They don't care about voting. they don't care about trying to build anything. They just want to see it all burn.
Right, because the system always works against them. I understand Roland, I'll be more vocal about this. I think when we protest for others, the movement becomes stronger. Silence is the enemy of this as well.
It's sad that they think what they do won't matter. Shouldn't they be inspired by stories of people who've made it great from humbler beginnings?
Agreed. But what do you think the primary channels for such a message are? Elders? TV? Also, do you see that people in such neighborhoods can make a difference if they wanted to, or is the establishment (government and the system that's in place) the thing that's holding them back?
We ARE guaranteed "freedom of association." Forcing people together with different cultures and values insures nothing but conflict. Multiculturalism has destroyed every culture that's tried it.
Not to mention the logistical nightmare of enforcing it in the first place which would violate basic human rights. Imagine telling someone they have to leave their town of birth because they are black because only white people will be allowed to live there now. How will you make her leave? Will you pay for her house? Get her another job? Move her stuff? However you imagine it's it ends up being a disaster. Imagine the uproar over enforcing this and the atrocities which would happen in the process.
Enforcing? What do "we" need to enforce? Racists have to enforce the weird racist laws in their areas. You say we would have entire towns of racists. It is like that now. This will be a perfect opportunity for racists to prove their whole Master Race theory. If there is a "Black" zone, they would have to figure out would a child in their zone could leave or not. Maybe the cutoff age is 17 or something. I dunno. Their problem, not "ours".
And I think you totally misunderstand. Segregation is a voluntary act.
Also, I didn't vote. While I disagree with the idea I don't think it is necessarily stupid. At least you are looking for a solution and stimulating debate.
No that was forced segregation. Racist tried to force their laws on people who wanted nothing to do with insane crazy as batshit racism. The thing is right now you can believe whatever you want. You already have almost totally exclusive "White" towns, etc.
That isn't good enough.
So I introduce a compromise. I agree, we will never persuade fruitcake racists to abandon their beliefs. Here is a way you can continue your "race".
Because racism is not dependent upon what I do. You don't know me from yesterday. Yet you are a racist.
That's not just insane.
Its stupid.
So since I can't convince you of logic. Of fact. Of truth. I compromise with you on setting up a community where you can preach these insane ideals. You can control your media. You can outlaw interracial relationships. You can do all you need to make you feel safe.
Well maybe an area for vegans and their various "nut" milks. There's no such thing, because nuts don't have tits. I know enough to know that you need a mammal's breast for milk...
That would not change in the slightest. We can still hang out. You can still have "Black" friends, Asian friends, get married outside of your supposed race or real culture.
I am still going to hangout with Goaded. Still going to marry my Austrian girlfriend. I am still going to hang out with my Indian bud and his "Black" wife.
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