Chivalry assumes gender inequality. I don't know why specially women still want that today. Makes me think they want all the advantages of those times but reject the disadvantages that come with it.
men do want it, sort of. that entire incel movement thing is basically men bitching and moaning that they can't control women and don't know what to do to get with women in this modern times where women apparently don't want anything that men can offer.
Oh yeah I do definitely agree, a number of men would rather have chivalry I wasn't disputing that. But I was just stating that I'm surprised that on this poll more women have voted in favour if it and being "ladylike" than men. I wrongly assumed more men would want it, I shouldn't assume like that though.
you know i think there's generally nothing wrong with acknowledging that there are gender differences and catering to your own genders strength or in other words "use your own genders energy", cause why not use something that you're naturally good at for your advantage?
doesn't need to be exploitive or suppressive in nature. if everyone gives value, everyone also profits form others giving value...
but doing that in todays PC climate seems a lot like walking on eggshells with all those triggered snowflake type people everywhere who want to believe so hard, that men and women can do all the same things equally well.
Correction: Not more girls, but a higher percentage of girls than guys. 44% of girls have voted in favour of "chivalry" and "ladylike" whereas 32% of guys has. A lower percentage of males voted in favour of chivalry and ladylike and that surprised me.
@Inbox the movement that originated from the urge of female emancipation. the realization that women are humans like men and therefore should be allowed to have the same chances but it moved so far as to completely ignore the massive differences between men and women that also reflect in their actions and decisions and treat those like signs of "oppression".
Here's what I think: being polite is essential, being chivrous/ladylike is very nice but not always necessary, especially not to the extent now than it did back then.
True, but my ego will take a hit if you open the door for me. I know I know, it’s just how I am okay🥺. Dont like doors being opened for me, unless my hands are full lol
Reasonable. What Dr. Laura always espoused..."Just be polite". You don't have to LIKE people, you don't have to agree, you just have to be polite. If you disagree, just agree to disagree then.
Being chivalrous nowadays is construed as a sign of weakness by many women (not all). On the surface they say they like it. But they exploit and disrespect.
I do agree, but I don't think lots of women exploit it.
In my personal experience, I've seen more women for what I am saying, (just teach politeness) than for the traditional "chivalry".
And equally, I think when the whole "ladylike" approach is pushed- I think a number of men (not all men) can also take advantage of that, exploit it and disrespect it.
Well being chivalrous includes me paying for everything and inconveniencing myself for the woman. 9 out of 10 times I’ve been exploited (friendzoned) acting that way. It’s shitty because I was RAISED to do that. Women from my parents generation actually understood and respected men who treated her like a lady. They didn’t automatically assume he was “nice” and weak.
But how does the ladylike girl get exploited? Can you explain?
It’s cause most guys don’t treat girls like that anymore. Any girl worth your time will take it as you bring sweet and polite, if she uses you for that reason she wasn’t great to begin with
@Username737 yes I know. If have met a minority of women who do appreciator that but they are and few between. More likely girls front that they appreciate that and then friendzone.
You know it’s weird 18-20 year old girls seem more open minded and appreciative. Then something happens around 21-22 when they can go out more since they can legally drink. They find out their hot and it goes to their head. Don’t be like that.
I can’t help but think that being chivalrous or ladylike makes the two people separate even more. Simply being polite and respectful can get you to feel closer to the other person easier.
"Chivalry was originally medieval battlefield etiquette." That is true, but I am referring to the more modern definition of chivalry.
"Promiscuity is not lady like" Well quite frankly, I don't really agree with promiscuity either. But saying "promiscuity" is not "ladylike" is just being a hypocrite because that's suggesting so it isn't okay for women, but it's okay for men? I don't judge people who partake in "promiscuity", if they want to do that, that's their choice and whatever, but at the same time promiscuity isn't something I'd promote. But that's not because I believe it's not "ladylike" I just think it's immodest for either gender, that goes for both men and women, not just women.
"Dressing in revealing clothes is not lady like." Again, I prefer modesty. But labeling again, giving a girl labels on how she chooses to dress is wrong, you'll give women these sorts of labels for dressing revealingly but what about men? Personally, I prefer modesty for me, but when it comes to dressing? Each to their own I say.
"They are guide lines on how one should conduct themselves in life" Can you give me examples of these guidelines?
I specified promiscuity as unladylike because it's easier for women than men.
I've never seen men dress revealingly because it's already seen as inappropriate.
A did give you examples. The entire point of chivalry is how to treat women as our betters (opening doors, using appropriate language, offering help etc.)
It's easier for women. And it's for some reason encouraged and called free spirited.
Hm. Maybe it's a cultural difference. I can't remember the last time I saw a guy without a shirt walking around. Maybe at work during summer if you work outside, but not casually or at parties.
Men don't generally open doors for each other. Our language is way more blunt if there's no women around. And being helpful, well I'm not gonna offer to lift something heavy to a guy unless it's too big for 1 person to grab or too heavy.
For example. A few days ago at work, a female co-worker asked me to help move a box. The box was only about 25-30 kg. That's not that heavy for a man so I would offer help.
Because not all things are the same for men and women. A polite man might change your tire and a polite woman might cook you dinner. Its not the same in reverse.
Why isn't it the same reverse? If a woman changed a tire for me, I'd be grateful to her not because she's a woman who changed my tire but because she changed my tire.
And you're telling me if Gordon Ramsay made you dinner you wouldn't find it polite because he's a man?
Gordon ramsey would be providing a service. A woman would be polite to cook for me. A woman mechanic is providing a service, i would be being nice to change a girls tire for her.
That's a very warped way to look at it. A polite woman may also change your tire, say you break down and you have no mechanical knowledge and a passing female mechanic helps you out, is that not kindness? It's there's no monetary transaction so it can't be that she is simply providing a service, as providing a service free of charge with no strings attached is consider kind regardless of gender. The same goes the opposite, say you cook your partner a romantic meal, you as a man have just acted kindly towards your partner through the medium of cookery. Gender has no bearing on what actions are or aren't allowed to be considered kind, and to think otherwise is both bizarre and a little troubling.
@Infernion but i know how to change a tire because im a man so the only way a woman is going to do that for me is if i take my car to a shop and she's a mechanic there and i pay her.
@bamesjond0069 No, you don't know how to change a tire because you're a man. You know how to change a tire because someone taught you to do that. In my hypothetical scenario sure the woman was a mechanic, but she helped you for free because she saw you in the hard shoulder by the side of the road while driving past. I know for a fact that I have at least one female friend who can change a tire because they've done it before when it burst on a road trip we were on. Women can easily know how to change a tire, and in today's day and age you can just Google it, it's hardly a coveted skill taught only to men. Maybe when you were a child your parents taught you that was the case, but that's simply not it. That's like saying the only way to get a guy to cook for you is to go to a restaurant and pay him, but that's not the case. I love to cook and I enjoy cooking for people, I'm neither a chef nor payed to do it. Knowledge is not barred by gender.
@Infernion yes but its rude. If im on a trip with a girl who knows how to change a tire it would still be rude for me to allow her to do it. Just as its rude for a woman to expect me to cook for her even if i know how to cook. That would be very rude.
As someone who hasn't the foggiest how to change a tire I wouldn't think it was rude to let a woman do it, I mean I'm sure I could struggle through it if I had to, but if someone already knows why bother with the extra pain. Same goes for cooking, I don't think it's rude if someone has invited you round to dinner to expect them to cook, imagine inviting your partner round for a dinner then telling them that actually they have to cook because they're the woman, that's just not how it works. You're awfully hung up on gender and it giving you a very warped worldview. All your examples are skill based, if you have two people and one knows how to change a tire, the other doesn't. Surely it's logical to have the one who knows how to change it, actually change it. Same goes for cooking. And in both situations you might teach the other person while you're at it, but none of that has any bearing in gender. This whole it's rude because they're a woman thing is not the case in today's society, and if that's how you feel about the whole situation then your views are outdated. I don't think anyone should expect anyone to cook for you. Man or woman. That's just snobbish and self entitled, regardless of gender. But the gesture of offering to cook isn't diminished to what is normal just because the person is female, that's simply ridiculous. You sound like a man from the 1950s, the whole man should be a strong guy who knows how to do mechanic stuff and whatnot, the woman should be in the kitchen. It's utter nonsense and doesn't hold up today.
@Infernion well if you dont want to be single it still holds up a lot. You think a pussy ass man who expects a girl to change the tire can even get a girlfriend? And if he does you think she's not cheating on him? Lmfao. You are going to get a rude awakening buddy.
Depends on the girl, if I'm honest if my relationship status is subject to change based on my ability to change a tire I don't think that's a healthy relationship to begin with. And you keep using the word expect, nobody should expect anything of anyone without reason to do so. I don't expect anyone to change a tire in the same way I don't expect anyone to cook for me. If someone does it's a kind gesture, but I don't expect it. To expect someone to do that is just entitled. Which brings it back to the root of the question, just teach general kindness, to bar certain things based on gender is ridiculous, kindness has no bearing on gender and your antiquated views on masculinity are slowly being broken down. You seem to think a guy has to be a sort of macho action man esc sort of guy and that's simply not the case. I'll patiently wait for this rude awakening you speak of but I highly doubt it'll come, times change.
@Infernion they dont change much. I know a lot of guys like you and they are single or they have gfs who cheat on them. I dont just make that up. They ALL cheat. Not even one hasn't out of the couples im aware of. And most of them try to cheat with me and im very traditional masculine man. So from all that information i can conclude women cheat on wimps for traditional gender roled men. You know how many equality feminist women come at me like tattooed pink hair girls who march in the womens march? A shit ton. And i tell them to act like a woman around me or fuck off and they do. They say it seems so wrong but it feels so right. Women dont believe in feminist gender bending crap. Its just a test to see if the man is a schmuck they can walk all over or not.
Seeing as you are both a generation above me, and clearly on the mysoginistic side of that generation, I can conclude that you don't know jack about social norms of the current time, and your generalisation of "equality feminist women" really showed your naïvety on the matter. Clearly we aren't going to reach compromise, and if that big reality check ever happens I'll be more than happy to admit that you were right, however, I have faith in the decency of people around my age to state quite confidently that that'll never happen.
@Infernion well we dont need to reach compromise. That is what people who are wrong do. Girls your age are more interested in me than they are guys their own age and the often tell me they are wimps and losers and they are not attracted to feminist equality guys because they are lame. So continue to lose at life. Personally i dont care. When your feminist girlfriend cheats on you with a man that insists on driving and acts protective of her dont come crying at me.
Sounds good to me, though I doubt you'll see me crying to you any time soon. I'm sure you're practically drowning in pussy with your ability to change tires and your expectation for women to cook for you :)
@Infernion tbh i am. That being said i dont accept every girls advances. I dont date cheaters for example so if your girl came at me id just tell everyone she's a skank.
If you're 33 years old and on an app bragging about how you're drowning in pussy, I highly doubt you are, you're probably lonely af and doing that to hide your insecurities, or at least that's normally the case. Either way, I CBA to argue with you anymore, I'm 95% certain most women would take my side in this whole debate, and those that don't aren't the kind of person I want to associate with, enjoy your enormous amounts of vagina.
This is overlooking the fact that a lot of "chivalry" involves special favors for women that men would not normally bother to do for each other, nor women for either sex for that matter.
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Chivalry assumes gender inequality. I don't know why specially women still want that today. Makes me think they want all the advantages of those times but reject the disadvantages that come with it.
Yeah I totally agree with you, it assumes gender inequality on both sides for both women and men.
To be honest, I am also surprised that it's a more women than men who actually want it, I really thought it would be the other way around.
men do want it, sort of. that entire incel movement thing is basically men bitching and moaning that they can't control women and don't know what to do to get with women in this modern times where women apparently don't want anything that men can offer.
Oh yeah I do definitely agree, a number of men would rather have chivalry I wasn't disputing that. But I was just stating that I'm surprised that on this poll more women have voted in favour if it and being "ladylike" than men. I wrongly assumed more men would want it, I shouldn't assume like that though.
you know i think there's generally nothing wrong with acknowledging that there are gender differences and catering to your own genders strength or in other words "use your own genders energy", cause why not use something that you're naturally good at for your advantage?
doesn't need to be exploitive or suppressive in nature. if everyone gives value, everyone also profits form others giving value...
but doing that in todays PC climate seems a lot like walking on eggshells with all those triggered snowflake type people everywhere who want to believe so hard, that men and women can do all the same things equally well.
Correction: Not more girls, but a higher percentage of girls than guys. 44% of girls have voted in favour of "chivalry" and "ladylike" whereas 32% of guys has. A lower percentage of males voted in favour of chivalry and ladylike and that surprised me.
@genericname85 That's Feminism for ya bra...
@Inbox the movement that originated from the urge of female emancipation. the realization that women are humans like men and therefore should be allowed to have the same chances but it moved so far as to completely ignore the massive differences between men and women that also reflect in their actions and decisions and treat those like signs of "oppression".
sorry i couldn't sum that up any shorter xD
Here's what I think: being polite is essential, being chivrous/ladylike is very nice but not always necessary, especially not to the extent now than it did back then.
Whatever you suggest should be genderless. Ie be polite, considerate and tolerant. Not things like men should do this females that.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. :)
True, but my ego will take a hit if you open the door for me. I know I know, it’s just how I am okay🥺. Dont like doors being opened for me, unless my hands are full lol
Damn chill dude its just a door😂😂
Reasonable.
What Dr. Laura always espoused..."Just be polite".
You don't have to LIKE people, you don't have to agree, you just have to be polite. If you disagree, just agree to disagree then.
Being chivalrous nowadays is construed as a sign of weakness by many women (not all). On the surface they say they like it. But they exploit and disrespect.
I do agree, but I don't think lots of women exploit it.
In my personal experience, I've seen more women for what I am saying, (just teach politeness) than for the traditional "chivalry".
And equally, I think when the whole "ladylike" approach is pushed- I think a number of men (not all men) can also take advantage of that, exploit it and disrespect it.
So it can go either way really.
Well being chivalrous includes me paying for everything and inconveniencing myself for the woman. 9 out of 10 times I’ve been exploited (friendzoned) acting that way. It’s shitty because I was RAISED to do that. Women from my parents generation actually understood and respected men who treated her like a lady. They didn’t automatically assume he was “nice” and weak.
But how does the ladylike girl get exploited? Can you explain?
It’s cause most guys don’t treat girls like that anymore. Any girl worth your time will take it as you bring sweet and polite, if she uses you for that reason she wasn’t great to begin with
@Username737 yes I know. If have met a minority of women who do appreciator that but they are and few between. More likely girls front that they appreciate that and then friendzone.
You know it’s weird 18-20 year old girls seem more open minded and appreciative. Then something happens around 21-22 when they can go out more since they can legally drink. They find out their hot and it goes to their head. Don’t be like that.
Those 1950's stick figures were happier than we are. Then someone told them they were unhappy. Traditional roles worked.
Very true. I read a book on this a few years ago... I'll come back and post if I remember the title...
we need for everyone to be polite to one another but also for men and women to behave like ladies and gentlemen ! Thanks
I think it's interesting that chivalry has a female form in terms of ladylike but I agree politeness should just be seen as a simple norm
polite is always enough for me.
I distaste rudeness and since politeness is something you can't fake. I will take that.
Neither. We should redefine chivalry so that both men and women and all genders are displaying acts of chivalry.
Yeah, no. It's all alright, you don't need to complicate more things. Forcing some sort of odd behaviour for no reason seems useless.
I voted A
Its so much better when men and women strive to be more than polite
Rules and regulations elevate us
I disagree, but thanks anyway.
I can’t help but think that being chivalrous or ladylike makes the two people separate even more. Simply being polite and respectful can get you to feel closer to the other person easier.
Chivalry isn't about being polite.
Chivalry was originally medieval battlefield etiquette.
Modern chivalry is a code of conduct on how to treat women and doesn't apply to men.
As for being lady like.
Promiscuity is not lady like
Dressing in revealing clothes is not lady like.
And so on.
Chivalry and being lady like have nothing to do with politeness. They are guide lines on how one should conduct themselves in life
"Chivalry was originally medieval battlefield etiquette."
That is true, but I am referring to the more modern definition of chivalry.
"Promiscuity is not lady like"
Well quite frankly, I don't really agree with promiscuity either. But saying "promiscuity" is not "ladylike" is just being a hypocrite because that's suggesting so it isn't okay for women, but it's okay for men? I don't judge people who partake in "promiscuity", if they want to do that, that's their choice and whatever, but at the same time promiscuity isn't something I'd promote. But that's not because I believe it's not "ladylike" I just think it's immodest for either gender, that goes for both men and women, not just women.
"Dressing in revealing clothes is not lady like."
Again, I prefer modesty. But labeling again, giving a girl labels on how she chooses to dress is wrong, you'll give women these sorts of labels for dressing revealingly but what about men? Personally, I prefer modesty for me, but when it comes to dressing? Each to their own I say.
"They are guide lines on how one should conduct themselves in life"
Can you give me examples of these guidelines?
I specified promiscuity as unladylike because it's easier for women than men.
I've never seen men dress revealingly because it's already seen as inappropriate.
A did give you examples.
The entire point of chivalry is how to treat women as our betters (opening doors, using appropriate language, offering help etc.)
What do you mean promiscuity is easier for women? Let's just get on the same page when you say promiscuity do you mean like sleeping around etc?
Really? Because I've seen plenty of shirtless males in just shorts sometimes, isn't that revealing?
But what makes opening a door, using appropriate language, being helpful chivalrous or masculine? Isn't it just a polite action?
Yea , sleeping around, being a whore etc.
It's easier for women. And it's for some reason encouraged and called free spirited.
Hm. Maybe it's a cultural difference. I can't remember the last time I saw a guy without a shirt walking around.
Maybe at work during summer if you work outside, but not casually or at parties.
Men don't generally open doors for each other.
Our language is way more blunt if there's no women around. And being helpful, well I'm not gonna offer to lift something heavy to a guy unless it's too big for 1 person to grab or too heavy.
For example.
A few days ago at work, a female co-worker asked me to help move a box.
The box was only about 25-30 kg. That's not that heavy for a man so I would offer help.
Because not all things are the same for men and women. A polite man might change your tire and a polite woman might cook you dinner. Its not the same in reverse.
Why isn't it the same reverse? If a woman changed a tire for me, I'd be grateful to her not because she's a woman who changed my tire but because she changed my tire.
And you're telling me if Gordon Ramsay made you dinner you wouldn't find it polite because he's a man?
Please.
When did this happen Gordon ramsay became polite and nobody informed me lol😜🤣
@Aakash_Hangargi lol if he made food for me, that's polite enough😂😂😂
Yeah and he will give lecture that you didn't eat properly 🤣
Gordon ramsey would be providing a service. A woman would be polite to cook for me. A woman mechanic is providing a service, i would be being nice to change a girls tire for her.
Your logic makes 0 sense
That's a very warped way to look at it. A polite woman may also change your tire, say you break down and you have no mechanical knowledge and a passing female mechanic helps you out, is that not kindness? It's there's no monetary transaction so it can't be that she is simply providing a service, as providing a service free of charge with no strings attached is consider kind regardless of gender. The same goes the opposite, say you cook your partner a romantic meal, you as a man have just acted kindly towards your partner through the medium of cookery. Gender has no bearing on what actions are or aren't allowed to be considered kind, and to think otherwise is both bizarre and a little troubling.
@Infernion but i know how to change a tire because im a man so the only way a woman is going to do that for me is if i take my car to a shop and she's a mechanic there and i pay her.
@bamesjond0069 No, you don't know how to change a tire because you're a man. You know how to change a tire because someone taught you to do that. In my hypothetical scenario sure the woman was a mechanic, but she helped you for free because she saw you in the hard shoulder by the side of the road while driving past. I know for a fact that I have at least one female friend who can change a tire because they've done it before when it burst on a road trip we were on. Women can easily know how to change a tire, and in today's day and age you can just Google it, it's hardly a coveted skill taught only to men. Maybe when you were a child your parents taught you that was the case, but that's simply not it. That's like saying the only way to get a guy to cook for you is to go to a restaurant and pay him, but that's not the case. I love to cook and I enjoy cooking for people, I'm neither a chef nor payed to do it. Knowledge is not barred by gender.
@Infernion yes but its rude. If im on a trip with a girl who knows how to change a tire it would still be rude for me to allow her to do it. Just as its rude for a woman to expect me to cook for her even if i know how to cook. That would be very rude.
As someone who hasn't the foggiest how to change a tire I wouldn't think it was rude to let a woman do it, I mean I'm sure I could struggle through it if I had to, but if someone already knows why bother with the extra pain. Same goes for cooking, I don't think it's rude if someone has invited you round to dinner to expect them to cook, imagine inviting your partner round for a dinner then telling them that actually they have to cook because they're the woman, that's just not how it works. You're awfully hung up on gender and it giving you a very warped worldview. All your examples are skill based, if you have two people and one knows how to change a tire, the other doesn't. Surely it's logical to have the one who knows how to change it, actually change it. Same goes for cooking. And in both situations you might teach the other person while you're at it, but none of that has any bearing in gender. This whole it's rude because they're a woman thing is not the case in today's society, and if that's how you feel about the whole situation then your views are outdated. I don't think anyone should expect anyone to cook for you. Man or woman. That's just snobbish and self entitled, regardless of gender. But the gesture of offering to cook isn't diminished to what is normal just because the person is female, that's simply ridiculous. You sound like a man from the 1950s, the whole man should be a strong guy who knows how to do mechanic stuff and whatnot, the woman should be in the kitchen. It's utter nonsense and doesn't hold up today.
@Infernion well if you dont want to be single it still holds up a lot. You think a pussy ass man who expects a girl to change the tire can even get a girlfriend? And if he does you think she's not cheating on him? Lmfao. You are going to get a rude awakening buddy.
Depends on the girl, if I'm honest if my relationship status is subject to change based on my ability to change a tire I don't think that's a healthy relationship to begin with. And you keep using the word expect, nobody should expect anything of anyone without reason to do so. I don't expect anyone to change a tire in the same way I don't expect anyone to cook for me. If someone does it's a kind gesture, but I don't expect it. To expect someone to do that is just entitled. Which brings it back to the root of the question, just teach general kindness, to bar certain things based on gender is ridiculous, kindness has no bearing on gender and your antiquated views on masculinity are slowly being broken down. You seem to think a guy has to be a sort of macho action man esc sort of guy and that's simply not the case. I'll patiently wait for this rude awakening you speak of but I highly doubt it'll come, times change.
@Infernion they dont change much. I know a lot of guys like you and they are single or they have gfs who cheat on them. I dont just make that up. They ALL cheat. Not even one hasn't out of the couples im aware of. And most of them try to cheat with me and im very traditional masculine man. So from all that information i can conclude women cheat on wimps for traditional gender roled men. You know how many equality feminist women come at me like tattooed pink hair girls who march in the womens march? A shit ton. And i tell them to act like a woman around me or fuck off and they do. They say it seems so wrong but it feels so right. Women dont believe in feminist gender bending crap. Its just a test to see if the man is a schmuck they can walk all over or not.
Seeing as you are both a generation above me, and clearly on the mysoginistic side of that generation, I can conclude that you don't know jack about social norms of the current time, and your generalisation of "equality feminist women" really showed your naïvety on the matter. Clearly we aren't going to reach compromise, and if that big reality check ever happens I'll be more than happy to admit that you were right, however, I have faith in the decency of people around my age to state quite confidently that that'll never happen.
@Infernion well we dont need to reach compromise. That is what people who are wrong do. Girls your age are more interested in me than they are guys their own age and the often tell me they are wimps and losers and they are not attracted to feminist equality guys because they are lame. So continue to lose at life. Personally i dont care. When your feminist girlfriend cheats on you with a man that insists on driving and acts protective of her dont come crying at me.
Sounds good to me, though I doubt you'll see me crying to you any time soon. I'm sure you're practically drowning in pussy with your ability to change tires and your expectation for women to cook for you :)
@Infernion tbh i am. That being said i dont accept every girls advances. I dont date cheaters for example so if your girl came at me id just tell everyone she's a skank.
If you're 33 years old and on an app bragging about how you're drowning in pussy, I highly doubt you are, you're probably lonely af and doing that to hide your insecurities, or at least that's normally the case. Either way, I CBA to argue with you anymore, I'm 95% certain most women would take my side in this whole debate, and those that don't aren't the kind of person I want to associate with, enjoy your enormous amounts of vagina.
Chivalry and lady like are two very different things 🤣 they're hardly parallels
Does it matter? Bother of them essentially favor women, it’s just that one is more misleading about it.
Hold the door for the person behind you. If someone holds it for you, thank them and wish them a good day.
Simple.
This is overlooking the fact that a lot of "chivalry" involves special favors for women that men would not normally bother to do for each other, nor women for either sex for that matter.