Particularly with millennials and gen z they are more independent woman who want to be working woman and go for careers in science, maths, engineering, entrepreneurs or modeling and acting. And men or older woman has this view that woman have to be housewives or stay home and take care of the kids. Don’t get me wrong there’s nothing wrong it you want to be a housewife and have a traditional family, but not in newer generations that’s not what most woman want anymore and society has a bad view on that. They think independent, progressive, feminism, woman is a bad thing and that’s so stupid.
Why does society think of an independent woman as wrong?
Because they are nearly non existent. Almost no woman is independent. Your living off of a man in one way or another. You talk about engineering and things like that but who the hell cares about that? Who is producing the food that keeps you alive? Men. Who is creating the houses you live in so you can survive? Men. Who is digging out minerals and metals so you can have the thigns you have? Men. Who is digging up coal and drilling for oil so you can have modern technology? Men. Who is inventing these technologies? Almost entirely men. Your talking about a career that can only exist because so many others are doing the actual hard job, the one that slowly kills them, that is grueling and painful and dangerous so that you can sit on your ass at a school, so you can sit at a computer etc. etc. Your not independent, your entirely dependent on these people and if they were to stop doing what they do you would die.
On top of that all of these "independent" women, are not independent in their relationships either. They still expect the man to do all the things they are traditionaly expected to do i. e. provide for them and protect them. So your not even independent on a superficial level. So its not that people have a problem with independent women because there are none, they have a problem with women who claim to be independent because they are egotistical, take everything men provide them but then don't want to acknowledge the considerable contributions that men have made, instead opting to try and take the credit for the work men do as well.
@ThisIsMyOpinion an errant white knight appears (how predictable you are). First off, YES. You are dependent on others, the vast majority of humanity cannot exist without other people. You do have some who can, fewer who actually do, but they are rare. The difference is, women are not able to do the jobs that are actually necessary for survival (or are unwilling, take your pick). This is a statistical fact and no I'm not going to get into this with you because as per usual you will ignore everything because you think repeating the same thing over and over again is an argument and I'm not going to waste my time on that.
As for relationships, no it doesn't. 80% of women surveyd stated they wanted the man to pay for dates, 80% of US domestic spending is done by women (70% globally) but women only account for about 30% of total earnings i. e. they spend their money and also the mans money. Men spend four times as much on women during the holidays as women do for men on average. So is their one woman out their who bucks this trend? Absolutely. Is one persons actions reflective of 3.7billion people? No. thats why we use statistics as it gives a better account of general trends and reflects reality far better then the ancedotal evidence you try to use.
@hellionthesagereborn yes they can. They never had the need to, but that doesn't mean that they can't. I had women contractors working on some of the constructions that I directed and they did a good job.
I mean depends on the women because while some claim to be independent, some actually are.
About paying for the first date, that is just being a gentleman. I felt like a boss courting women like that.
So women spend more 20% than us? So what? You know their shit is way more expensive than ours. Have your ever walked around a store to get a gift for your girlfriend? Like Jesus!
And I would love to see how old those stats are. Today women make most of college graduates by far. But just like in the previous time that we talked I bet there is some information that you are leaving out. Like this considering only a very specific portion of the population or something.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Over 80% of all construction work is done by men, the more physical the job the more likely it is to be done by a man. 80% of mining is done by men, however if you actually look at jobs, 20% of managment i. e. paper pushers, are women meaning when it comes to the actual phsyical labor and dangerous jobs its done entirely by men. I'm not going to argue with you on this, this is an absolute fact women are not as strong as men they are not as resilient as men and they are pampered and cared for by men period. If you do not wish to see reality (as I have already presented ample evidence for my argument and you give me ancedotes and ad naseum arguments) that is on you. I'm done arguing with stupid.
@hellionthesagereborn I never said that the majority weren't men. I simply said that they can do it. As a civil engineer I know!
I don't agree with you in some topics, you label me a certain way and then you don't even pay attention to what I say. I thought girls were the ones that were supposed to be emotional.
Men are independent. Men have careers. So when we tell you that it's not all it's cracked up to be and you shouldn't throw away your youth chasing after it, you should listen to us.
Older people don't tell you this shit because they're big meanies for no reason and they just want to cramp your style. They've played this fucking game before and they've seen what happened to them and to every other young idiot who thought they were going to win, and they know the difference between hype and reality.
Not listening to men I can understand, because most girls are stupid and think men don't know anything or that they're always lying, or whatever. But at the very least you should listen to older women who've been in your position and already gone through what you're about to go through and who had the same bullshit pumped into their heads that you're having pumped into yours and wish they had listened to their mothers instead of believing in bullshit and finding out the hard way that real life is totally different than what TV and movies and magazines tell you it is.
Don't throw away something good that's real for something "better" that's fake. All a career is, is working hard to make somebody else rich, it's nothing to be proud of, it's nothing to sacrifice your youth and your happiness for, and it's certainly nothing to throw away a chance at true love for.
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It's just the sexism and tradition of gender roles/religion grasping to try to maintain control in all ways, even the ways they are failing to maintain. A lot of men have a hard time because traditionally they were used to women in a certain position, with a certain personality type as the expectation, etc. Now that this type of woman is celebrated and encouraged, they are struggling to figure out their masculinity in relation to that. Men are actually starting to fall behind in schooling as well, so it's an interesting time really.
But a lot of men DO like it!! :)
I think more common than what you have described is a phenomenon of men who think they are okay with intelligent, assertive, independent, opinionated, etc. but struggle with the reality of what interacting with women like that *feels like* for them, compared to what they may be accustomed to or just compared to women who are less assertive, not independent, passive, etc.
The latter will make some men feel more masculinity and they like that they feel extremely needed. They don't get the same feeling with those of us who fit well into the other category.
Because men are threatened by women starting to live the same lifestyle as them. Now that women have more freedom in The dating game, men can't easily choose when to settle down and with whom because that woman may no longer be an option. We don't wait anymore to be chosen. We dont need their money anymore for support, so they can't so easily buy love anymore.
and in order to Rob us of this freedom, they resort to petty methods like slut-shaming and fear tactics i. e. you are going to get old and no one will want you or all the good men will be taken.
darling, women will never live the same lifestyle that men do, because no woman can actually take that. Stop picturing what you see in the movies and start looking at how men actually live.
I don't know where you live and what kind of people you have around you, maybe you are an upper-middle class teen but in the rest of the society, life is completely different for men and women. Men do all the dangerous jobs and society expects a hundred times more from men, so don't tell me men and women live the same. But I don't blame you. You're still in high school and cannot see what goes on in the society.
@alwaysintosomething lol! I'm in my late 30s and I work a white collar job and I make more money than a lot of people. obviously we're different, but the dating field has become more equal than before because of independent women
You say we/I want to keep women dependent. Wrong answer. It's too easy for women to destroy men with any accusation and I don't want to keep women at all. I avoid women like the plague.
Who said anything about revenge? If it's anyone's revenge it will belong to God himself. Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, “We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!”
Sorry but you live in these United States not Saudi Arabia. Basically you are saying an independent woman is a woman not in a relationship who is able to go to college, get a job to earn her own money and live in her own home or paying her own rent or mortgage, and above all paying her own way in the world. Even married women work usually after their youngest reaches school age, women have always worked, the 1950s housewife wasn't really a common thing. So independent woman basically means being an adult, earningand paying yourown way. Society actively encourages people to be adults and this has nothing to do with feminism.
I love independent minded women. I love their ability to do whatever the fuck they want.
But which society thinks it's wrong to be an independent woman? Some societies do. And segments of even the most progressive societies to. But society as a whole?
It was a slow march to women's liberation and independence. There was the right to vote, the right to get a job during WWII, changing fashions, the bikini, the pill, equal opportunity laws, even greater insistence on freedom from sexual harassment (#MeToo).
I think you make a mistake in thinking that millennials and gen z women are more independent than some previous generations. Girls in the 60s and 70s were rebels, breaking down the walls, challenging patriarchy and social norms. They were the first generation of women to go to college em mass and go on to become skilled workers n competition with men. It's true that some of those women went on to have kids, become helicopter parents, SUV driving soccer moms, and get sucked into the buttoned down world of competitive capitalism. But I predict that millennials and gen x-ers will do the same thing as they age and have kids. In some ways, freedom for women and people in general has been shrinking over the past few decades.
And while I totally celebrate the possibility of women doing that they want, I am also struck by the number of millennial and gen z guys who bitch and moan about independent women. I find that phenomenon fascinating.
Whereas I agree with you that the millennial women are more career women than women of previous generations. I disagree with you that there exist this notion that older generations are pro-housewife. Frankly, I read more comments from millennial men who are seeking the housewife and on top of that, that she be a virgin too. I date a lot more younger women who are those career women, ambitious and what not and connect with them far better than the part-time employed or housewife types. I do tend to meet more women in their early 30’s to 50’s who seems to desire simply getting married and being, “taken care of”. For me that too much resembles having a house pet. I am attracted to the complementary woman and not remotely to the “submissive pet”. In other words, an “adult”. Strangely this seems more often than not come in the form of 20 something women. Hell, I met this very alluring 27 year old deputy last night who has her own home, two horse, dogs, and a couple of SUV’s. We had a damn great time hanging out at my pal’s house where I met her. Hell, we even had a cigar together. Loved it! My gal pal who is a housewife looks at me and just says, “She’s totally your type.” She wasn’t referring to her age but her persona. My gal pal is 49. I have known her and her husband for 14 years. They know what I am drawn towards and they also know that it is a rare find.
No... I appreciate a woman who has their life in order. It’s adds to her sexiness. The millennial men who are equipped to complement these women are going to have the beat damn lives with these women. Good on them and good on those women.
It is finally nice to come home and know that there is some other already home or on her way who is actually willing to contribute to ‘our’ home and ‘our’ life rather than just being company I sleep with who even if not work never even lifts a finger around the house which they also occupy. I’m done with that...
Most career women reach their mid-30s and realize that their career hasn't fulfilled them, and they have no family to share their lives with. But by then, they believe that their independence and career success, which may have earned them nice clothes and a nice place to live, should also entitle them to an even higher status man - never stopping to consider that there are very, very few such men, and those few that exist don't care about her career or her apartment or her wine collection. Instead, if such a man is going to trade his freedom and risk his future with a relationship, he's only interested in women who are young, fertile, and happy to be a stay-at-home mom.
And since those women refuse to "date down", they end up alone with no family and their line doesn't continue.
Men can't get pregnant or give birth, so those are things that men highly value in women, but women have a window between 15-30 where they are at peak fertility. After 30, time starts getting very short, and their value to men - especially high-value men with lots of options, starts to diminish quickly.
Most women today don't figure this out until it is already too late to get those high value men they desire.
There’s such thing as multi tasking, a woman can have a successful career as well as have a social life and dating life. You talk about how those woman want a “high class man” well where do you think they meet these successful men? Probably at work at their high class job
That's not where those men look for girlfriends/wives, because they don't WANT a girlfriend/wife who is working a high-end job, because that woman doesn't have the things that he's looking for. This is what you clearly don't understand.
Most of my customers are wealthy people, and they live in homes in the $2M-20M range. Out of about 40 of those customers, I only know of 2 who have a wife who has a corporate-type job. Many have part-time jobs - one teaches yoga 10 hours a week, one sells real estate part-time, one is a decorator part time, etc. But they all focus on their kids, and keep their kids busy and focused and make sure they're doing well in school, etc.
Successful, high-value men, when looking for a girlfriend/wife, do so almost exclusively because they want a family - it's why upper-class people are almost all married and have kids - but for that reason, the traits that men look for in a woman is: does she want to be a mom to our kids? These men DO NOT VALUE her job or her degree, because he already makes money. He's looking for someone who can bring to the table things that he doesn't already have - and a career isn't it.
@Oram52 I'm an Audio/Video Integrator. I design and install TV/surround-sound systems and other audio/video setups (projectors/screens, etc.), do networking & WiFi, and security camera systems. This carries over into whole-home automation and integration with smart-home devices. For example, several of my customers with whole-home systems can use Alexa do voice-control much of the system.
An in-ceiling automated projector screen in a conference room, with 5.1 surround and feeds for TV, BluRay, and laptops for projecting presentations
Basement media room with 5.1 surround and 80" TV.
Loggia (outdoor living room) with 65" TV and 5.1 surround.
Equipment rack (that slides out on tracks to work on) at one customer's house (one with Alexa integration).
I think its good to be independent but i think most men hate that it turns you into that mindset of “i dont need a man.” I mean its okay to not need him as long as you still want him. But a lot of men feel their job is to provide and protect. If we provide and protect ourselves, then a lot of men feel lost like damn what can i do for you? I would say, you can still give me that dick. But then you have the women who feel their vibrator is better 🤦♀️ And a lot of dudes are like, well she’ll still need me for reproduction. But then u have sperm banks, invitro, artificial insem... so its like 🤷♀️
Actually i think it's the other way around, nowdays if you want to be a stay at home wife/partner, believe in gender roles, or that your men should provide for you you're seen as a neanderthal unevolved homos sapien shallow gold digger. The society didn't change that much from what it was in the old days, they still try to force people to fit in what they deem right and to be the norme (if they decide all women should stay at home wrapped in layers of clothes, be pretty, and shut their mouths that's what's going to the norm, and if they decide all women should work and pay for men, and have kyle Jenner's body to please them then that's going to be the norm).
Women are hypergamous, so they want a man with higher status. It's harder for career woman to date because they're at the top. So when these 30-year-old women "hit the wall" while progressing in their careers, the guys that they want are already married to younger, submissive women who want to be homemakers and raise kids. Career women are depressed as ever and most of them will die as cat ladies.
Your not wrong. I dont know many women who want to settle for a guy whos less successful than they are and the most successful guys pretty much have their pick of the ladies since most women want a successful guy.
You can be just as good as men but when your the best its not possible to date up so either you have to settle for not being the best or you have to settle for a less successful man.
If you have a great career then you can probably afford to have your man stay at home and raise your kids for you. But how many women would prefer to be a stay home parent to working in the top of their field pulling 60-80hrs/wk. If your that successful then im sure you can find a guy who can afford for you to stay home with the kids.
I would love a chance to be a stay home parent but a girl that makes enough money and wants to work full time while letting someone else raise their kids is hard to find so its just a fantasy for me.
@ThisIsMyOpinion No, it is a woman thing. It's biology that women find a man with higher status (money, career, etc.) because that ensures that her children and herself can be accounted for and protected. The man is the protector. Explain how come in dating apps, women who are like a 4 or 6 go for the guys that are 10s. Girls have fewer options while guys have more options, but that doesn't mean the girls would pick them.
This "Women are hypergamous, so they want a man with higher status. It's harder for career woman to date because they're at the top. So when these 30-year-old women "hit the wall" while progressing in their careers, the guys that they want are already married to younger, submissive women who want to be homemakers and raise kids. Career women are depressed as ever and most of them will die as cat ladies."
You lost me at the girls have fewer options bit. Uglee people have fewer options accross the board. Girls have plenty of options until they go and become the best in their field making 100k and need to find a man making 200k to feel like their not settling.
Guys are the ones supposed to line up for a chance with the girls while the girls are the ones who choose from all the guys. You see that in birds too, the guys have bright colors to show that they are healthy and can provide while performing elaborate dances, songs, and rituals to convince his desired partner that he's better than the rest and fit to have her babies. Meanwhile the lady is just a lame brown color usefully for staying hidden out of sight but she doesn't have to attract anyone since she has the choice of any male not yet taken by another.
@imthatsteve I meant that girls have higher standards nowadays so that's why to them, they have fewer options, while to men they have a lot of options, but once they reach the age where getting pregnant is hard, they'll choose that guy they rejected. Yes, that's true, courting is a guy's thing.
The guy has to prove himself to the girl. To continue with the bird analogy its like the girls are used to the guys being 2x as beautiful as them so they always try to get a guy at least twice as beautiful as themselves. But then the girls figured out they dont need the guys and can make themselves as beautiful as the most beautiful guys. But instead of looking for a guy as beautiful as them they are still looking for a guy 2x their own beauty. But then you also have the bit centurion pointed out, most girls are attracted to slightly older men and if you postponed settling down and getting married to focus on a career then most guys your interested in will already be married especially since they dont care as much about the success of their partners.
So women are welcomed to focus on their careers and be independant and all that but they need to change their expectations. If your going to take on the role of men then you also need to date like men and look for someone making less money or not as desireable to other women. Part of this is because men care more about youth and beauty for the same reason women care about success. Beauty is a display of health and women have a limited period of their lives when they are fertile and thus their reproductive value is directly tied to their youth.
@imthatsteve I like that analogy. Yeah, exactly, if they choose to be like men, they should definitely focus on looks instead of status. But, again, that goes against biology, and those relationships don't last, the woman is frustrated. And the brown bird (camouflaging) is the female and male is very colourful, because the male's job is to spread his seeds and until he dies, it doesn't matter, the females can raise the next generation. But there are monogamous species for life out there like hornbills, swans, penguins, and pretty much look the same.
@imthatsteve And yeah, girls are putting on a fake image of filters, makeup, plastic surgery, Spanx, once she takes all of that off, she's very plain, I think technology has definitely promoted a false sense of ego for women and the rude awakening will come when her looks diminished. Our ancestors weren't that picky and they didn't have people to compare to, even men are guilty of this, unrealistic porn standards for women.
I do watch a lot of porn but i mostly watch self shot amateur porn and softcore photo shoots because i can't stand fake girls, fake moaning, fake orgasms, fake enthusiasm, fake tits, fake ass, fake lips, fake face, its disgusting and i can't believe any guys are into that.
Like i really believe the only guys into that are closet gays and virgins/little boys who dont realise how fake and nasty that is. Melondream is a great app for android that makes softcore porn far more accessible. Other than that i spend a lot of time on reddit gonewild and other niche amateur subs. If i do watch real porn then im very very picky about it. Ill spend 2-3 hours looking for a decent 1 hour video and then ill come back to the same few clips over and over.
@modelun242 if we were just moved by our biology we would still be living in caves. We are the most mentally evolved being on this planet. Those are the things that gold diggers search for in a man. Specially today when even guys don't want a girl that has no job or decent degree.
@ThisIsMyOpinion How we got out of caves was due to evolution, opportunity, human migration actually. Just because we're civilized doesn't mean we should ignore biology. Ignoring biology has caused disasters caused by feminism, "the wage gap", #metoo, false allegations, gynocentrism. Most women want a man with higher status, that's not a gold digger thing, this is because her offspring will be protected and will be well taken care of. Basically, women want a man they can look up and respect, this cannot work the other way around. For a long time, this equation has worked, woman was the homemaker and man worked. And guys who are with an "alpha" woman don't have successful marriages, I think the mom should be with the kids and looking after them, not the system. That's why kids since the 60s are screwed up, more spoiled and entitled than ever. Divorce is rampant because of feminism and the sexual revolution.
@modelun242 Exactly we evolved. And we keep doing it as a society also. That is why women don't need a man to provide for them amumorr. You still need us, but not for survival anymore. That is good. How the hell ignoring biology caused that? People with way to many time on their hands and a victim mentally did that. I am sure that all women want someone that can provide for the house and is not a lazy blob on the couch. But on your logic all women would leave their current partners as soon as a millionaire showed interest in them. Again only gold diggers do that. You actually believed that women were happier on those days? When the man blasting them across the face and not caring about their pleasure or happiness was normal?
@ThisIsMyOpinion Men don't want to get married anymore because of how entitled women have been, fine, if women don't need men, we could just bring in a family with religious values from the Middle East and they can replace the declining birth rate. Is that what you want? And the abusive husband is an exception to the system, but the system is good, there were just a few bad people who ruined it for everyone else. Career women are depressed as ever because they have to take on more responsibility, and yeah, more money = more happiness? These career women don't even spend their income effectively. Having kids and a family is worth it in the long-run. It sounds like you don't care for the long run for society, you just want to take advantage of the sexual revolution which made women more vulnerable and sexualized than ever, which caused men to not take responsibility anymore, deadbeat dads. The single mom and absent fathers are breeding criminals and confused kids. I believe that a strong father figure is the breadwinner, not the other way around. And that's unrealistic, why would a millionaire show interest in a low-tier woman already married, millionaires have better options out there, like a submissive virgin girl much younger than that married woman.
@ThisIsMyOpinion And women are not that stupid, they just don't go off to the next man who's richer than their husband, I'm talking about when they pick their life-long partner, you just twisted that. Again, happiness can't be measured, it's subjective. I can tell you that society went along smoothly and they didn't have problems like now. Women sacrificed her time for the children and men sacrificed his efforts to work, both sacrificed, there's no "oh this person is not happy", but genders had their part. This putting women to work is something the establishment want, to put more money in their pockets, bigger labour force. When women are in their 30s and their fertility is low, she would settle for anyone like those guys she rejected in college. You're saying we should ignore biology, hello, a woman's peak fertility is in her 20s.
@modelun242 Men don't want to marry anymore? I married last year and it was hard to find a place that wasn't booked for the day I wanted xD I don't think are that entitled today. You girls need us for more than money and protection and always will. What is wrong with women being free sexually? That doesn't stop them from building a good family when they find the guy they want. In my close group of male friends we all have girls how have a degree. Every single one. We all have women who have their own jobs. We like that. At the end of the day, when we get home we still have them at home with us. Virgins girls are so boring! Can't even suck it right. But I wasn't talking about a married woman. Even one just in a relationship, yet to be married, won't leave her partner for a millionaire unless she is a gold digger. Wait wait! So to you, as long as everyone plays their part, doesn't matter if they are happy or not? Are you serious? Women work now not because the state wanted. They had to because women were not backing down from it.
Society as a whole doesn’t think being an independent woman is wrong. Apparently, you feel the need to strut about your stuff though and project to us all that you are independent. Tell me, if everyone sent you their permission, approval and wished you luck, would you just go and do it rather than talking about it and shoving it in everyone’s face. Usually the talkers are not the doers but rather looking for attention. You will never hear much from real independent women because they are off doing it instead of talking about it.
I just don't see it. Women have been able to pursue education and careers at the same pace as men since I was a teen in the 80's. In fact, I read recently that females make up more than 50% of college graduates today.
I see see feminism (the movement) floudering because they are now an organization that makes people money, yet their mission is mostly accomplished, so the only way they can continue and stay at their current membership levels is to create false-flag drama in the media and continue to blast arguments of inequality in the public's faces nonstop.
Sure, some people are still oldschool idiots and spout the old nonsense, just like racists, but they are in the minority, sitting way in the upper decks, and largely ignored, except by those who wish to continue the fight... and for what?
Asker: What inequality do you still see and would like to have addressed?
Well I reckon it's because this idea has been drilled into all of our minds for thousands of years. And even then it would've been much worse a couple hundred years ago than now, where women were just outright property and were to "be seen, not heard".
If the above was the status quo for many centuries or possibly millennia and then in the span of maybe a decade or two, women decide that they're not going to want to be submissive to men, then I think that some people are going to react in a negative way to this.
Well, a lot of the people have lived their whole lives on traditional and orthodox rules. People in modern generation are more forward thinking, they are also risk takers, while older generation's are more reserved and have many bad experiences with risk taking. Most people are worried that when women become independent, the amount of danger for them also increases, But many have become comfortable with their old traditions and don't want to change it, thinking that if these rules are changed then their comfort will also go. This mostly seen in men, because most traditional rules favor men and hence they turn arrogant. That's why when women become independent, men feel that their authority is questioned.
As an independent woman I have never had any biases towards me for that and have actually been praised for it! As an independent single mum I’ve had about 1 or 2 comments about how I don’t do what’s best for my kids as my main job should be finding them a replacement father and that is all. I really don’t see this as an issue. Then again as an independent single woman I don’t care what other people think! That’s one of the reasons why I’m independent
Outdated traditions are fortunately no longer relevant in our timeline. It's been time to liberate women from boxing them in to the roles they've been forced to do.
And so this can be seen as being a deviant. And deviants are not popular. Homosexuals were also considered to be deviants. If you ask me being a deviant is going the right direction in spite of all the obstacles, criticism, hate and judgments.
What that means for independent women? I suppose some guys hate the idea, that women are not forced to be chained to them in all ways - especially financially. Insecure to the point, where they NEED to dominate, command, dictate, control, whatever a woman (by stripping women from their rights) because they either find no other way to be effective or they dislike women.
Just like there's a difference between guys who are nice and "nice guys" there's a difference between a woman being independent and a "strong independent woman". The perception is that some women are constantly trying to prove to men how "independent" she is and that she doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks. But it just comes off as try-hard. Just like the "nice guys" who try way too hard to show how "nice" they are. I don't see anyone complaining about women who genuinely work on being independent and establishing themselves in a career track. I only see people start to take issue when a guy is minding his own business and the woman out of nowhere is like "I'm too independent for you to handle, you fragile man baby!"
I’ve actually talked to a bunch of older women who are jealous that I have more opportunity to be independent. These same women I’ve talked to also regret the way they raised their sons. Because now their sons have no practical home skills and depend solely on the woman to do all the cooking and cleaning.
It’s up to the younger generations to raised their kids to have those practical skills AND to be successful, male or female.
If this was something new, I'd have a different opinion, but this issue has been around for probably as long as the human race existed. Women always seem to be struggling with the need to assert their independence. Each generation seems to think this is something new. I've seen it my whole life.
My personal opinion is that men and women are designed physiologically and mentally for different roles by nature and that this constant struggle to fight the tendency to view them in the natural roles they were designed for is something that has been with society forever and probably will be so forever. In the year 5050, women will still be feeling like they want to be independent and generation z98266 will think it's the first generation to feel that way. It's nature against social pressure.
Independence is a good thing but can, like all positive personality traits, become toxic and a negative influence on the people around them if taken to the extreme. I also think it's really unhealthy for society to place a cultural expectation on people to be independent to the ridiculous degrees we currently see. We're herd animals, we're not supposed to be able to handle everything ourselves, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is just fooling themselves. We need other people, we need their support and we need to be able to ask for help, something our current culture doesn't allow us to do, because you're supposed to be able to do things without relying on anyone else. So if you can't (which WILL be the case), you'll start seeing yourself as a failure.
While I agree we are social animals, I think op was refering to women being as independent as men have been historically. Nobody wants to be truly independent, but at the same time there is a lot of cultural push to go out on your own and make a life for yourself. Just in the past, it has mostly been the guys who go and find a fruitful career while women support him.
Utter rubbish, of course. Let me guess; you get this idea of the world from movies and TV, don't you? You see all these glamorous women, fawned over by beta males, and think that's reality. Well, it's not.
Reality is two working adult households, Mom's a teacher or hourly worker in a safe environment, Dad's in construction or some other dangerous, dirty, and/or exhausting field that still pays well. They're living paycheck to paycheck, and MAYBE setting aside a few bucks now and then for emergencies. THey have a mountain of debt, mortgages and school loans, and their savings have vanished because the corona virus put one or both of them out of work.
Raising kids is not only the mother's job. The dad has an equal responsibility too. A working woman is just as capable of raising a family. If I have daughters, i plan on raising them to become independent women.
You're free to do what you want. It works for some women but many women have had a rude awakening in their thirties when they want to settle down and get married and have kids. They are no longer as "sought after" as when they were younger. Guys just aren't as interested in them. Sure some guys will be interested in them but the women are reporting that the guys aren't the same ones that they used to get and that's who they want. they are faced with lowering their standards or being alone and not having kids.
I think the concept of 'independent woman' is inherently flawed. Community gives individuals their faculties. If humans become independent from a community, they lose these faculties. Men and women have to get married and make families. These families are then the foundation for new communities in which individuals receive their faculties through.
Therefore no woman is independent, neither is a man. Feminism claims they want to make women as independent as men are, but its not possible. There is no alternative foundation to the family for communities. It is only a family that can create community members out of already existing community members.
Because older people were raised in a different environment with different norms. With each generation comes change and the older generations usually hold on to what they're used to. People often don't like their beliefs being challenged.
Working sucks I don't know why women want to work so bad 😂😭 Be housewives it's much more fulfilling You get to raise your kids and learn skills all day
Not only that, moms have the ultimate task! They literally perpetuate humanity. A woman with kids is infinitely more valuable to society than any career woman.
Same haha and I am tired. wouldn't it be better to work on building a family rather than earning a wage forever?
I find many young girls are idealistic about careers. It's not so fulfilling after a certain point. Many women desire families at 30 and by then it's too late
Maybe those older people know somethings from experience
@_soarer I think they're nuts to want a career! Working from age 14 to 17 is not exactly a grind. By the time you've been working about 40 years, most of the novelty of work is gone. (ha ha) Unless you're doing something you totally love doing it's monotonous.
Not really I know it’s different for all woman but I don’t really desire a Husband as much as I desire my goals and my career right now. I’m sure I’ll meet someone along the way in the type of things I do so it’s not really a problem.
Scarlett I hope you find the career that's right for you and it makes you happy ❤ But I want to let you know you can have the career later in life (there is no rush!) You can have it all, but not all at once ❤
Your thoughts also change at different stages of your life. I though the same at 17, I was completely 100% sure I didn’t wanna husband, I was putting all my focus on my studies because I wanted to achieve my goal of being a dentist. I’m still set on my goal but now, I am also reconsidering marriage. Your perspective on matters definitely fluctuates with your age
You may think it's "stupid", but it's just human nature and as much as you would like it to, it's never going to change. Men and women are both valued largely by the views of the opposite sex regarding what is most important to them in a mate.
Men will always be valued mostly based on their earning power and social status. Women will always be valued mostly on how good a wife, mother and lover they are. That's just human nature. It's in our genes, and no amount of progressive feminist thinking is ever going to change that.
To men, a progressive feminist is the least desirable woman of all. And independent women are pretty much the same thing. Women who prioritize ambition and career ahead of relationship and family just have little value to men.
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Anonymous
(25-29)
+1 y
There is nothing wrong with desires or using your talents in a work field, but motherhood can only be accomplished by a woman and is equally as important to fatherhood. Granted both are in short supply and high demand these days. A Christian woman who is responsible and stable is desirable. A chaff woman is not. It can be a strain on a family for both parents to be working full time, but is increasingly demanded. We do live in an era where woman and men work less hours inside or outside the home. Housework used to be a full time job in our agrarian past, but it has been reduced as well as the work week. So Ideally there is more time available for men and women, but some men are still pulling 72 hr work weeks. This pairing favors housewife, but if I were to pull 40 and she didn't exceed 30 a balance could be reached.
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Anonymous
(30-35)
+1 y
Well progressivism and feminism are unattractive, that's legit, so you're right there.
But when it comes to "independent". Usually it's attached to a shit personality: self-importance, arrogance, thinking they deserve better and should be liked more because of the things they do when that's not really the case.
That's where this idea of not liking "independent" women comes from; in reality it's more like they're met with indifference, however the women who think that path was meant to give them more perceive them not getting more as society hating them -- which only leads people to turn away from them even more.
We were sold a lie in the 90's and 00's as kids, that boys and girls are the same. Both had their own reactions to that idea and we're seeing the outcome.
Well hopefully with a generation actually interested in working for it instead of complaining about it the outdated notion of "feminism" can finally come to a close. I'm gen z myself and have no interest in opressing any woman and neither does pretty much anyone I know my age. If we become the majority that would be one less issue to worrie about.
Cause a financially independent woman, is someone that men cannot control. Imagine the agony of having a woman who won't put up with your shit, unfaithfulness and bad attitude, and that you can’t have control over? The agony!!!
I don't know what they are feeding you in school, but society doesn't care.. In fact society encourages it.. And women themselves say that they want to be independent and yet they are as unhappy as can be.. Statistics and data is not on yoself on this issue.. As women are twice as likely to get hired in STEM fields yet it's still largely a man field.. Plenty of women are given opportunity to go up in positions yet they choose to have kids and raise them..
because A LOT of women do not know what being independent really is.
most of them believe that being independent means they can be bitchy and arrogant with anyone they dislike or opposes them and most men in society obviously find this very repulsing and obnoxious
says the thirsty simp that thinks rushing to women’s rescue online is gonna help him get laid or rewarded with the pussy points he can’t get in real life.
@OddBeMe I wouldn’t be surprised if your wife is exactly those women I’m describing hence why my op triggered your ass. Probably curses and calls you “good for nothing” and many other shit every time she’s on her period or has a bitchfit. But you obviously don’t mind taking that from her cause it’s the only way you’re gonna avoid blue balls. Pathetic!
Till then I don’t need to fuck the same pussy every, give up all my hard earn belongings, endure the same drama every day just to name a few just to keep avoid blue balls
Well it's not society it is a small amount of idoits who are like "women should be wifes and mothers... And make me dinner"
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Anonymous
(45 Plus)
+1 y
It’s not that it’s stupid, it’s just that it’s annoying when people push it in your face. Sort of how others push religion or LGBT issues on people. No one really gives a crap, you do you, but stop running around saying I don’t need a man I’m Ms. Strong Independent.
Society doesn't care. It doesn't care when you decide to pursue a career instead of a family. It doesn't care when you get baby hungry at 35 and can't find a man who will give you the time of day. It doesn't care when you retire and you feel lonely. Society doesn't care about you, and it never will.
You are an individual person, and only another individual with whom you have invested in a relationship will care.
Well, it is hypocrisy of such women themselves. They like to be independent but when they have to take care of the house they start complaining. Long story short, working women I know don't ever pay the bills. They just hoard and hoard the money much more miserly and greedy then Workeing men
It's because the long-term success of a culture depends on whether it's pro-natal or anti-natal. Pro-natal cultures expand and grow. Anti-natal cultures shrink and get replaced by pro-natal cultures within a couple of generations.
because we are not supposed to seek independence from one another. men and women evolved to compliment not compete with one another. we each have pre set roles from biology
you know what society thinks of a 40 year old never married man? a loser
I literally have been rejected numerous times simply because guys tell me I shouldn’t be independent and they don’t like if I have more than they do. I sort of cursed myself and now i’m kind of stuck.
Trust me, in about 10 years you're going to be one of those people... or you'll be a bitter feminist with 5 cats and no one else to come home to.
Why? Biology. When you indoctrinate a generation to hate themselves, they likely will ending up making bad choices, and not realizing they have until after the fact.
There are pros and cons to this but at the end there will be hell lot of people in depression who won't find srlf worth then health detoriated having problem in conceiving nobody will be there to take of children it will psychologically effect everything people won't get married have multiple relations both men and women will be at fault
Because of the stupid ideology in the 40's to the 60's that a womans place was in the house being the homemaker. The barefoot, pregnant and chained to the kitchen mentality.
Not necessarily wrong but it’s that many “independent” women conflate independence with being as insufferable as possible to their partner to the point where you are throwing plates at him if you ever dare to suggest a place he would like to go eat at.
Men and older women are often traditionalists. Men fear change because they associate that with lack of control. I suspect older women are often angry that after a lifetime of service to the patriarchy they don't get to be a revered matriarch lording their authority over daughters and daughters in law anymore.
@David_Kek and why is the a pussy beggar? He doesn't have a problem with independant women. My guess is that when you think of an independant woman you think of someone arrogant that isn't caring and puts men down. Am I right?
His comment was the verbal equivalent of giving a woman a rim job. No woman can respect a man like that, and women aren't attracted to men they don't respect. That's why statistically even feminists are more attracted to conservative like men than they are male feminists, because those are men that take care of themselves and are actually a challenge.
What I think of independent women is that they're statically the most unhappy women in society.
@David_Kek I don't think his comment was him lowering himself that much.
We definitely have different ideas of what independent means. The studies that say that career women are more unhappy than housewife include only women who dedicate ALL to their careers. Those don't have time for relationships.
A woman, just like a man, can have a decent career but also have a good house and social life. Independent women, as far as I am concerned, are just women with jobs who can take care of themselves.
Those are much happier than the one that got a black eye.
@ThisIsMyOpinion "that much" implies he did. A man who respects himself doesn't lower himself at all.
Well then clearly we do, because women have always worked, even the stereotypical 1950s housewife. Most of them had part time jobs, and those that weren't qualified still worked doing whatever they could from home to do their part. The only thing that really changed was technological improvement made work so much easier, reducing housework to almost nothing, and making workplaces much safer.
"women's liberation" and the notion of the "independent woman" came directly from the feminists movement, that asserts that woman don't need no man and can do everything for themselves, and the women that followed that advice only realised until after the fact what an incredible mistake they made. Really think about that term for just a second; "female independence": what exactly are they getting independence from if not men?
And you're incorrect, those statistics aren't just single women, they do include career breadwinning women with a husband and children.
@David_Kek "That much" was a figure of speech. I didn't understood in which way he lower himself at all.
There is no comparison between what those women had and independence. It was very hard for them to survive without a man. Today they can easily do that.
They are saying they don't need a man as much as before. Simply that. They are not saying they don't need us at all. Just like us. We need women. We don't need them to put food on our tables and we never did. Well now they don't need us for that either. Still both sides need each other for everything else.
Are you sure? Have you seen the research group? Do you know what they counted as "career women"? I really doubt they classified as that any woman with a self sufficient job.
@ThisIsMyOpinion If you don't understand, then you're as undesirable as he. Women do not want to be pedestalized, and told that their neurotic nonsense is correct.
That's irrelevant to the subject at hand; women do not want to survive on their own, they can mentally handle that shit far less than men can. I only brought them up because of your definition of "independence", for even those women most of the time had part time jobs. By your stretched definition, the average 1960s housewife could be described as "independent".
"as much as before" - Now that is reaching. You sure you don't want to redefine your definition of independence as just being a little bit better off thanks to technological innovation? Because again, even by that definition of "not as dependent on men as much as before" equally applies tot he 1950s housewife, as well as every other generation before them. I'm pretty sure women of the Victorian era weren't as dependent on their men as their mothers were before the invention of the steam engine.
That tells me you genuinely don't know what the statistics say. Well, allow me to enlighten you; do you know what the 2nd highest category of divorce is? The 2nd highest category of divorce is initiated by bread winning mums with a house husbands who maybe have a part time job, and do less than their "fair share" of house work, for the primary reason being "dissatisfaction". You know what #1 highest category of divorce is? Same thing, only difference is the husband does do his "fair share" of cooking, cleaning, etc. Do you understand that? The more "independent" a woman is in her relationships, the less happy she is.
@David_Kek He said there is nothing wrong with independent women. That was it.
How could she be described as independent? A low income, in a very uncertain job, a society outcast as single mothers were with kids to raise. Not to mention that only a few had those part time jobs.
Independence being not needing us to basically have a decent life. Women at that time couldn't even vote or aspire high paying jobs. Things changed a lot in the last decades.
Yes they iniciante divorce more. So what? Women who get beaten up by their husbands rarely divorce of leave them. Yet do you think they are happy? The reasons that make them divorce their partners may have nothing to do with what their partners do, more with their partners don't. Dissatisfaction is the reason right? That can include a lot. My guess is that the fact that the husband helps at home instead of slapping her face is not the reason they are less happy. Just maybe...
@ThisIsMyOpinion No... he passionately argued on women's behalf, and hence failed one of their shit tests.
1. I've just told you, the majority of them did have part time jobs. The postcard ideal of the 1960 midclass housewife with no job, was exactly that, a postcard dream most women wanted yet wouldn't actually want to happen in most cases. Just like how most people would like to win the lottery and quit their job; in reality we'd all grow bored without something to do. 2. You said "Independent women, as far as I am concerned, are just women with jobs who can take care of themselves", well i hate to break the news to you, but they could, ever since industrialization, and even before that to some degree. Are you even half aware there are women on the books as being black smiths as far back as the 1600s?
"Independence being not needing us to basically have a decent life" - You keep moving the goal posts. Furthermore, define "decent"; not having to work down a coal mine? Because guess what, there are women on the books who did work down coal mines back in the 1800s.
"Women at that time couldn't even vote or aspire high paying jobs" - Women couldn't vote in the 1960s? There were no high earning women back then? What are you talking about.
So what? Have you ever known a happy woman married to a beta house husband? Because i haven't. If that's not the common factor, then that's a hell of a coincidence. Luckily i have talked to a number a women, including one independent woman which I'd routinely fuck while he slept in his subordinate spare bedroom position, and I've yet to find a single women find any of this men attractive or worthy of respect. In her words "women can't respect a man like that, you just can't. Women use them for convenience but you can't respect them". On the flip side, i used to work in domestic violence activism, studying the work of women like Erin Pizzey, and I've seen no shortage of women who love, desire and look up to men to the point of addiction, that treat them like complete shit. There was even video of a few years ago Islamic woman saying her husband occasionally beats her when she's a little out of control, smiling as she said it, and saying how she feels secure and safe with him keeping her in line. And to be clear before you misinterpret what i'm saying, making that point as not the same as condoning wife beating, with many examples women not wanting that at all, and i know the difference, but i can't be bothered to explain because it's not relevant. The point is the data indicates the more "independent" a woman is, the less happy she is.
Now at this point, given the specific way in which you're arguing, my reckoning is you are one of those men, and are likely married to a woman fucking someone else while you do your "fair share" of domestic responsibilities. Sound about right?
@David_Kek You consider that to argue on women's behalf? I call that him giving his opinion.
Do you really want to compare the opportunities and freedom that had on that te to the ones they have today? It's way easier for them to have that independence today.
My defenition didn't changed. I can say it in many ways. I define a decent job as one that can give them enough for a living.
The first country to give women the right to vote was around 1890, New Zealand I believe. In my country they couldn't vote before 1931. That is way later then what it should have been. Again do you want to compare the amount of high paid women there and now? No comparison.
Do you that the beta and alpha bullshit was disproved by the very guy that came up with the idea not long before right? Guys don't need to be all brawl and no brain on their wives to keep them happy.
You live in another world. You really think that if a guy has a normal job, comes home and cares for his woman that she won't be happy? You probably haven't met many people.
And let me guess you are a guy who wants to keep his woman in line, but hasn't find a single one that will put up with his shit.
@ThisIsMyOpinion he is arguing on women's behalf, as are you, far more passionately then most women do themselves. Only women that do to that degree are feminists, and even they don't want to fuck you.
Again, independence from what? Men? Or are we going to move the goal repeat ourselves again repeating that said women in the past fit your nonsense definition too. Ok, i guess we will.
"I define a decent job as one that can give them enough for a living." - Then by that definition a lot of men aren't independent, unless you want to pick a choose what you consider the definition of living. Lot's of spinsters 100s of years ago lived their whole lives by themselves with no one to support them (not even state welfare), and they didn't die of starvation or the elements, though i don't think you'll deny there's been no shortage of men in history that have died homeless and starving, right? Again, are you listening to a word i'm saying? THERE ARE LOTS OF EXAMPLES OF WOMEN IN THE PAST WORKING TRADES SUCH AS BLACK SMITHS AND EVEN COAL MINERS. By your nonsense definition if those women weren't independent, then neither was pretty much the entire working class population, men and women alike. And if they were independent, then what does that say about the 1960s housewife with her part-time job? That she's more oppressed than women 100s of years before her?
If you're not considering the housewives of the 1960s with their part time jobs as not fitting your definition of independent, than women not voting decades before them is a pretty moot point. Though if you want to talk of independence using suffrage; in my country women got the vote in 1928, for free merely 10 years after men got the vote after dying in their millions in ww1 against their will after being conscripted. How's that for No comparison?
@ThisIsMyOpinion "beta and alpha bullshit was disproved by the very guy that came up with the idea not long before right?" - No it wasn't, and there's more then enough data to prove the original model which is far more obvious in enclosed zoos than in wild populations, but still exists int he wild non-the-less.
"Guys don't need to be all brawl and no brain on their wives to keep them happy." - Quite right, they need to have brains and know how to use them, because in male dominance hierarchies in humans women select for intelligence in men as much as they select for genetic health. I don't take you as being an intelligent man, and i very much doubt you play aggressive sports to prove how strong, fast and healthy you are. Generally it's the stupid men that beat their wives who end up getting divorced and in the back of a police car, while the intelligent ones who beat their wives don't and are still loved to death.
I guess that means I'm right. You have kids? Presumably a couple of them being some other mans?
And i guess that means you're wrong. Currently I've got two women on the go, and they both love me to bits, one of them more than she's ever known.
@David_Kek Defending women? Just like him I am defending my opinion. Look around this question, there is a girl with a different opinion than me and I am defending it. I have my opinions and I defend them against men or women. And don't worry I don't want crazy feminists either. The sane ones I don't mind.
On a financial level yes from us.
On that defenition many people aren't independent today I agree. But it's no longer defined by your gender.
Oh yes many men died homeless and they still do. Due to their life choices, because they had them. Don't bullshit me! Today there are also women working many of those jobs. Doesn't mean there are a lot of them. You want to compare the freedom that women and men had? Even if the working class was struggling men were still way more independent than women were.
You are comparing the deaths of men to the rights and freedom that women had. Of course war was mandatory and bad for men. But that is not a related issue with women's rights. You have to compare women then and women now.
Not really. It was adopted by the population because people wanted to say they were alphas or whatever. But it was debunked soon after.
No you are not. I don't have kids yet and neither does my wife. I don't worry about her cheating but you should. I actually know how to make a women that has half a brain happy.
@David_Kek Oh right I forgot about the other part. We share the same opinion from each other. From your retrograde views I don't take you as an intelligent man either. The simple fact that you just said "intelligent ones who beat their wives don't and are still loved to death." is enough prove that you don't have much inside your head. I was a muay thai fighter actually, not anymore since I can't appear in my job with a scar on my face or a black eye.
@ThisIsMyOpinion "On a financial level yes from us." - Then by that definition unless a woman is the soul breadwinner, she's not independent.
"Don't bullshit me! Today there are also women working many of those jobs. Doesn't mean there are a lot of them." - Your argument genuinely doesn't have a leg to stand on now. The number of them is irrelevant, the fact some of them do exist is proof that there is nothing stopping them. Women, most women, do not truly care about getting careers as opposed to jobs, because they do not care about independence and all the responsibility that comes along with it. You give most women the choice between a nice guy with a good income or a 9 to 5 job is a shitty office that doesn't fulfil them so one day in about 10 years they can become a CEO or some shit, they'll take the nice good provider nearly every time. What did you said about "Due to their life choices" or something? Oh that's right, those women's choices don't count, because reasons.
"You want to compare the freedom that women and men had? Even if the working class was struggling men were still way more independent than women were." - Yes, i do. When i see lies and half-truth, i feel the need to call bullshit. A man who is conscripted and sent to die in a war for his woman's protection, is more free than she is? You're honestly going to claim that?
"Of course war was mandatory and bad for men. But that is not a related issue with women's rights. You have to compare women then and women now." - Nope, that's not how it works. Gender rights by definition exist compared relatively to their opposite sexes rights, not to their same sexes rights in x amount of time in the past.
"Not really." - Yes really, the hard biological, anthropological and ethological sciences have been pretty conclusive the last few decades. Feel free to read "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" sometime, it's a hoot.
"The simple fact that you just said "intelligent ones who beat their wives don't and are still loved to death." is enough prove that you don't have much inside your head." - Well with a stunning counter-argument like that i really can't disagree, genuinely because you're counter-argument being little more than another way of saying "you're stupid", is genuinely a non-argument. With that i mind, i guess there's nothing left to say about that, other than the proof is in the pudding, and if you're wrong then i wish you all the best in raising your wife's lovers children, and if i'm wrong... i don't actually know tbh. If i'm wrong then nothing happens.
And for the record, if you haven't heard, for anyone to say they "used to be a fighter", is another way of saying they failed at being one.
Of course that matters. The initial point was that women could not be independent. To prove me wrong you said that women also worked those jobs in the past just like men. So yes the amount of them matters since it's not an amount that actually allows women to be independent.
Do you listen to yourself? Yes they do want that responsibility! They have as much desire for a prestigious job as we do. Being a doctor is one of the most prestigious jobs in the world. Guess what gender most of medical students are.
If those men are the same, yes they will pick the one with more money. Of those men are not the same they will pick the one they like more. This is a no brainier. Now they have that choice! And they make it instead of having to be with the provider that treats them bad.
For his women's protection? Are you trying to make me laugh? Men were sent to war to fight for their country. On the command of their leaders because of quarrels they had. Paraguay went to war with three of it's neighbors at the same time for no other reason than its leader at the time having a greatness complex. Half of the male population died on that war and definitely not to protect women.
We evolved way past our cave ways. But if you want to believe that we still behave as such be my guess. That would actually explain a lot about you.
If you don't know why what sentence alone proves how empty your head is then I don't know what to tell you. You are a lost cause.
So your logic is that everyone who is a retired fighter failed as a fighter. Ya sure...
@ThisIsMyOpinion "The initial point was that women could not be independent" - I've not once made that claim. My reply was men who rim women's assholes and put them on pedestals of oppression, to be the white knight in shining armour, are truly undesirable to women. You then asserted that i think independent women are man haters, and i responded i think they're the most unhappy women in society, and this advice is bad for everyone. At which point you gave your non-sense definition of independence, and i replied saying by the same logic those women of the past were independent. There is nothing stopping women, today more than ever, and women do not care. You're trying to sell ice to eskimos; in practice they don't give a shit.
"Yes they do want that responsibility!" - Says who? Feminists? Beta white knights such as yourself? Neither group counts. Again, deep down even those feminists don't genuinely want it, but they don't have much of a choice because no man that they want wants them.
"Being a doctor is one of the most prestigious jobs in the world. Guess what gender most of medical students are." - I think you mean GPs or ER staff, for almost no female medical student decides to herself that she wants to be a surgeon or something. The prestigiousness means fuck all to them, all that matters is the paycheck, the ability to work with people one to one or hopefully children, and the ability to get really close to high earning male doctors that they can trap into a relationship. It's the same story in nearly every career you can think of; they get in, trap one of the high earning men in the profession, get pregnant, and then get out part time as a housewife. Point to as many medical students as you like, what matters is what they do after they leave school.
"If those men are the same, yes they will pick the one with more money. Of those men are not the same they will pick the one they like more." - You're half right. They try to get the most desirable man they can get into a relationship (aka, men who are successes in what they do that shows their genetic health and ability to provide), and if they can't then they're settle for the best provider they can, while they breed with said desirable man they wanted in the first place behind their beta's back. Look it up; paternity fraud is at about 30% among the working class, and about 10% among the upper class.
"Now they have that choice!" - They've always had that choice, they just didn't want it.
"And they make it instead of having to be with the provider that treats them bad." - Again they've always had that choice, if a woman hated her man that treated her badly, she's always had options. There are records that go back to the 1800s of wife beaters being punished by the law via whipping post. And it was the wife's option to ask the local law enforcer to do it for her if she wanted, because his arm could whip his back harder than she could. You are genuinely oblivious to just how much feminists have lied about our history, it's almost funny.
"For his women's protection? Are you trying to make me laugh?" - Oh no, you're not using semantics to get out of that corner you've painted yourself in. I said are you really going to claim that a man who's been enslaved and likely sent to his death has more freedom than a woman who has not?
"retired fighter" - That's cute. Unless you was a prize fighter who won titles and enough money to retire on, then that's not retirement, that's failure.
@David_Kek Except they weren't independent by that logic since the actual numbers of independent women were incredibly small. "No more than ever"? Are you serious? They have far more opportunities today than before.
Says their actions. No need to look further than that.
Most of the cirgeons are men, but also most radiologist also are men. There are more women in oncology and internal medicine for example. And you if think the prestige means fuck all to them you clearly never spoke with one.
You actually believe that fantasy take don't you? I have a close family friend who is a doctor, is married, was a mother last year and she is already back to work. " get out part time as a housewife". Sure.
Again with the fantasy land. They will settle with a provider while they fuck the other right? So to you any women that can fuck a higher status man with a high income will inevitably cheat on her husband. Yet this is not true at all. If a single women has two choices, one is a rich abusive man and the other a regular earner that treats her right, she will go for the second guy and be loyal to him. She is much more likely to cheat on a man that doesn't make her happy.
No they couldn't. Look at the way things were back then. Look at the way things are now. Women have far more options now and they are taking them. If they could do as much in the past as they can now, why they didn't? I tell you why, because they don't have half the obstacles today.
Last year on my country on the first 3 months of the year around 12 women were killed at the hands of their husbands. You say that they could just press charges? Ya most of them had already gone to the police more than once and no one did shit. See how good things look on the paper and then on reality?
@ThisIsMyOpinion well this has been fun, but if you genuinely think men who have been enslaved and sent to their death has more freedom than a woman who hasn't and instead who's safety and wellbeing has been placed first ("women and children first", etc), then you are gneuinely retarded, and you deserve whatever you get. It's men just like you, who raise the bastard children of men just like me.
@David_Kek that coming from the guy that said "intelligent ones who beat their wives don't and are still loved to death." doesn't mean much. You are comparing times of war to everyday life. In times of war yes men are stronger so they we are needed to fight. When we were not at war yes men had more freedom than women.
Also don't be surprised when your girl one day gets tired of you and leaves for a guy like me. You are amusing at first but with time that amusement ends. As for me, what makes me great will always make me great.
@grega239 I agree with you that is not a big deal. Women have been getting degrees since many decades now. But some guys here are saying that it is wrong that women are independent. With that I don't agree.
Non traditional women and a man hating society is exactly why I'm moving to Russia. The short answer here is, I don't think of them, at all. I avoid women like the plague. Very rarely it's a hi or bye when it comes to women here in the states. And if they're a known progressive feminist, I will have absolutely nothing to do with or nothing to say to them on any level at all.
@NorthwestRider I'm sure there are those women in fact. I'm not going there looking for women. I'm going there to live in a society and isn't against and doesn't hate men.
Independent woman have more options. fact is that the most of the people's first impression is that they can hookup with anyone they want to.. they don't want to share their personal information which gives the impression that they're doing something wrong.
You're making the same mistake many women do today, which is to assume men value and are attracted to the same things in women that women are in men. We're not. Women love a successful, independent man with a good career, a high income and high social status.
Those are NOT the things men are attracted to in women. In fact, they are kind of negatives because they are indications she will not be as good at the things that men actually DO value in women.
Because most " independent " women are not independent, the receive copious amounts of government assistance, and even the ones who pursue high paying careers seldom got thier jobs based on merit, you got it because they needed to fill a government mandated quota
Most of the time "independent women" are just annoying bitches who consider anyone, men especially, as inferior or not worth their time. The worst is their attitude, the more "independent" they're labelled, and celebrated for it. Most people don't like annoying people, but apparently it's a problem when those people are "independent women".
I disagree with your premise. A woman is allowed to be more independent than many men today, even. It's really being brainwashed because the powers that own the news media and institutions that be want to purposely divide us and keep acting the narrative that some groups are oppressed when that doesn't exist anymore.
Because any woman who calls herself independent, but runs to daddy government as soon as she doesn't get what she wants, is not independent but a hypocrite; and society finds these cry babies annoying. It's good that you brought up feminism at the end because that paints a clear picture of the type of hypocrite you're talking about.
we don't my main issue if children growing up without a farther in the house I come to raising children both parents are important doesn't mean that a woman can't be independent or have her own independent thoughts
Most of society is used to the traditional way of women being housewives its hard to change the midset of people who have thought of it the same way since a long time.
It’s a reaction to cultural change. When people start doing things differently then what the culture tells them to do, a lot of people can’t accept change. Also add to to fact that people have the feeling of entitlement to their privilages.
I dont think that is the way most people feel , I personally am more attracted to an independent woman , you have to be personally independent before you can be in a successful relationship
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