Do you see George Floyd as a hero?

[Anonymous]

Do you consider him a hero? Would you like to see parks , schools and streets named after him?

Yes he's a true American hero

No he's not a hero

[OlderAndWiser]

To anyone who says that he is a hero:

he·ro /ˈhirō/ 1. a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. E. g., "a war hero"

Please tell me what George Floyd did that was was courageous, was an outstanding achievement, or demonstrated a noble quality.

[MindYourEyes]

Pretty much exactly what this man said.

[goaded]

Almost nobody's saying he's a hero. He is a martyr: "One who suffers greatly and/or constantly, even involuntarily. "

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded The word "martyr" implies someone who willingly and voluntarily suffers, or dies, as a result or refusing to renounce religious or political beliefs, often for the benefit of a larger group of which that individual is a member.

He got killed and shouldn't have happened - obviously - but that doesn't make him a martyr. People may want to make him into a martyr because that helps to focus on the police wrongdoing, but this rally isn't martyrdom.

[goaded]

The word "involuntarily" was literally in the definition I quoted, but that was from wikipedia, and it doesn't seem to be common.

There's an interesting article on the phenomenom at psychology today, the final two paragraphs read:

"The marvel of martyrdom is that, though martyrdom stories seem to be about the martyrs, they are not. Martyrdoms are cases of mass psychology, not of individual psychology.

Trying to dismantle George Floyd, the pundits might think that they address the root of the problem. But their efforts are misdirected. When many are fed up with systemic injustice and widespread suffering, if a martyr doesn’t exist, we invent him."
www.psychologytoday.com/.../nobody-said-george-floyd-was-martyr-or-hero

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded The phrase "convenient idiots" comes to mind.

[goaded]

It shouldn't, unless you think the police killing suspects with impunity is acceptable.

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded I think you misunderstand. Floyd was an idiot because this could have been avoided (and, by that statement, I am NOT excusing the cop of his criminal responsibility.) So he is an idiot. But his death is convenient to the cause of those who campaign against racism by law enforcement.

[goaded]

Oh, he was an idiot, but then an awful lot of people are, especially petty criminals. But being an idiot doesn't merit the death penalty. And, yes, his death was a trigger, but there's been plenty of racism by law enforcement (and other people, remember Ahmaud Arbery?) that's flown under the radar.

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded I never suggested that all idiots should receive the death penalty, and you know that.

[goaded]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. (Am I right in now thinking you meant Floyd was the "convenient idiot", not the people who protested his deaths? If so, I misunderstood before.)

Mine is that 1000 extrajudicial killings by police a year, even in a population as large as the US, deserves protest.

The only time someone should be shot is when they're an imminent danger to someone else. Not when they're running away, not when they're stealing something or being rude, not even if they might try to kill someone else tomorrow; only if they're about to kill or seriously harm someone right now.

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded So if a serial killer is stopped and then tries to flee, the police can't shoot unless they think he is going to kill someone TODAY, and if he is going to kill someone tomorrow, they must let him go without shooting?

Really?

[goaded]

If police know someone's a serial killer is and they know were they are, they'll be going in mob handed, without giving them a chance of escape. If a cop sees someone who looks just like a most wanted serial killer, and he's actually someone with outstanding parking tickets, is the cop justified in shooting him if he runs away?

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded Ted Bundy escaped from jail. You refuse to acknowledge the possibility because you know how absurd your comment is.

If a guy only has unpaid parking tickets, why is he running away from the cops?

[goaded]

Because he's an idiot who thought he could avoid going to jail for a few days by running away from police who probably wouldn't chase him for the sake of $100?

"Ted Bundy escaped from jail." Did he? Was he shot on sight? How many men who looked a bit like him were shot, too? Oh, no, he was caught, arrested, charged, convicted and executed.

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded. You don't know the history. And the point is that serial killers can escape. And suggesting that the police not short a flying felon because he will kill someone tomorrow instead of today is insane.

[goaded]

Or standard police procedure.

"For decades, officers were authorized to shoot suspects in the back to keep them from evading arrest. The killing of 15-year-old Edward Garner in 1974 changed that.

The case involved Memphis police officer Elton Hymon responding to a report of a prowler when he saw Garner running from a burglarized home. Hymon later told investigators he didn't think Garner was armed but shot him in the back of the head anyway to stop him from getting away. The shooting was deemed justified.

Garner’s case led to a landmark Supreme Court decision in 1985, in which the high court said shooting fleeing suspects who are not an imminent threat is unconstitutional. The court said officers can use lethal force to stop a fleeing suspect only if they have reasonable grounds to think the suspect poses a danger to police or bystanders."
abcnews.go.com/.../explainer-legal-shoot-suspects-back-77380322

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded How is that relevant to what is happening today?

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded An how is it relevant to whether George Floyd is a martyr?

[goaded]

"The court said officers can use lethal force to stop a fleeing suspect only if they have reasonable grounds to think the suspect poses a danger to police or bystanders."

Floyd did not (he wasn't even fleeing), and he's not the only one, it's just he was filmed for nearly 10 minutes while he was being killed. He stands in for all the young men who were killed without an audience.

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded I know that you love to disagree and you never admit when you exaggerate or overstate a matter, so I will withdraw from this battlefield of inanity.

[FortheloveofHistory]

NO!
Heroes are made by the public because they earn it.
They are not ENFORCED by the Government (or by organizations) for the purpose of narrative.

The man was a career criminal, who made many terrible choices.
We can debate the validity of either side of the incident that led to his death (and clearly there is bias on both sides)
However, this man was unfairly made a martyr by people who were more interested in power than equality.
They were more interested in creating chaos than unity.
Not to mention the entire narrative his death was used for... was based upon a complete lie.

For What?
What was gained from all of this?
Nothing.
Nothing but death, division, destruction, and a period of time that has created SO MUCH HATE.


Anyone who things this man is an American hero
IS A FOOL
and terribly misguided on the truths of this narrative
and is a good example of why this society is collapsing.

[Anonymous]

A hero of what, exactly? Chauvin being charged on all counts just barely made a dent in police brutality against POC. His death opened many eyes to the injustice & the toxicity within the police force. I personally would not call him a hero, but his unfortunate death has shined light on something that has been kept in the dark for far too long - sadly, it couldn't have been done without violence & death.

[7771999]

There is no damn police brutality. There is a huge amount of ignorance for policing.

People don't understand at all. And for that, you're all being extremely foolish.

[Opinion Owner]

@7771999 maybe I should've called it police misconduct, then? Which is a civil rights violation. Using excessive and unwanted force is pretty brutal. Kneeling on a man's neck for (9 minutes I think) until he stops breathing is an extremely brutal act. Shooting people is a brutal act. If you'd prefer police violence over police brutality, that also works. Under international law, police should only ever use lethal force as a last resort; many killings by police around the world clearly do not meet the criteria. Did you know that in Iran children were killed during protests - at least 23 children? That doesn't include the hundreds of people they killed along with those children. But hey, not police brutality right?

[Opinion Owner]

A few years ago I was slammed on the ground & knocked unconscious (I'm 94lbs / 4'11", the cop was maybe 250 give or take) because I was driving with a week old expired license & he was insisting on taking me in, to which I asked what reason, his response was to pull me from my vehicle & slam me onto the ground. But, heyyyy, that isn't brutal at all! Just ignorance, right?

[7771999]

I won't comment on anecdotal evidence

[ShaTTeredMasterpeace]

@7771999 Lol there absolutely is police brutality. You keep talking about him being a criminal, but you would know nothing about any of that had he not been murdered. He wasn't committing a crime when a cop kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes. Cops are not executioners. People excusing or trying to justify his death are sick, Period.

[7771999]

He was trying to use fake dollar bills. He was high on deadly amounts of drugs, and asked not to he in the police car for no obvious reason. He said he couldn't breathe way before have a knee on his neck and back

[ShaTTeredMasterpeace]

@7771999 wrong. He did not have enough drugs in his system to be fatal. So that is irrelevant. As is his criminal history. He died because he was under a grown ass man's full body weight for 9 minutes. Nobody ever claimed that man was hero. Stop it.

[7771999]

He didn't want to stay in the car. So him being a large guy, had to he detained on the ground until backup arrived

[Asker]

@7771999 the police officer is a criminal too. That's why he's been found guilty of murder, there was no justification to knee on someone's head for 9 minutes , it was complete power tripping from the cop. 😳

And all that over a fake bill? And he might have been om drugs? So what? Most Americans have taken drugs before, no reason to kill

[msc545]

@7771999 If you don't think what Chauvin did constituted police brutality, it would be interesting to know exactly what you WOULD classify as police brutality.

Or is it your position that police are simply incapable of being brutal?

[A_Bell]

As much of a hero as any armed robber/kidnapper/assaulter of women/drug addict/counterfeiter can be.

Anyone who looks at that man as a hero is a POS.

[ShaTTeredMasterpeace]

A cop kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes while he was handcuffed. 9 minutes. Him being a hero or a criminal or whatever else you wanna call him does not change the fact that he was murdered. Cops are not executioners.

[jshm2]

You're confused.

The situation was never about hero's.

He was a change maker and catalyst. One who showed that America's legal system comes down unlawfully hard, and the police are as bad as the criminals in their jobs.

How America resolves it's problems will make it or break it. The land of the free - apparently never was. It's just a free market, not a free country and even that is only if you're White enough.

[BeMuse]

He's a junkie criminal. If that's who you idealize, that says a lot about you.

Black Kid 1: When I grow up I want to be a junkie criminal! What do you want to be?
Black Kid 2: I want to be a rapist in Lincoln Park. I'll be climbing in your windows snatching yo people up.
Black Kid 1: Cool! You want to share this crack rock.
Black Kid 2: Hell yeah nigga!

[DarcRefractions]

No, he's a ends to a mean.
Him is a sad man that's a junkie and hasn't accomplished much in life and probably never was.

BUT right-wing media. And police made him a matter and mascot. So now he is. Simple as that.
His death means more than his life

[BCA6010]

Regardless of how anyone feels about that situation, they'd have to be completely out of their minds to think George was a "hero."

That word gets used far too much, and often inappropriately.

[jaybee281]

He represents the trash of society - had many crimes on his record - Hell on the day of his death he was overdosing on fentanyl and paying with counterfeit money - Glad that insect was sent to the shadow realm

[Agape93]

Nope. He was just a murder victim turned into a martyr.

[ChrisMaster69]

@Agape93 that last word is the scary one,

[Agape93]

Yeap. That’s why we had over half a year of rioting as a result.

[Anonymous]

No I do not. Most of these people BLM advocate for are NOT heroes. They tend to be criminals. George was not a good man. He robbed people. He was a home invader. He was a hard drug user. I don't think he deserved to die like that, but he was a very terrible person.

As far as I'm concerned with BLM, the only one that gets respect from me is Ahmaud Arbery. Not the rest.

[MarkRet]

George Floyd didn’t deserve what caused his death, but he was a worthless POS who never did anything useful in his entire life. Definitely not a hero.

[electromagnetic]

martyr for sure. But I wouldn’t exactly call him a hero.

[Grape-Soda]

Hero? A drug dealer and addict? A man who once broke into a house with a gun and held it to a pregnant woman's stomach (look it up)? You have HORRIBLE values.

[MCheetah]

No, he's not a hero. He was a dude they made out to be a political martyr and pawn.

[NotARobberYet]

White women do believe that the drug addicted robber who was used to kicking pregnant women was also a saint and a national hero despite that.

[Anonymous]

No, I don't see him as a hero. He's a victim of murder, without a doubt, but I don't think being a victim makes you a hero. The heroes are the ones who fought for justice after his murder.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

try being 6"4 resisting and resisting until a cop is forced to put his knee on your neck while being high on heroin and fentynal AND BEING SICK FROM COVID-19. see what happens

[Lliam]

Fuck no. Not even a little bit. He was nothing but a terrible role model.

[The_Maphio]

It will take hell to freeze over for me to recognize a criminal as a hero.

[Dchrls78104]

No, I do not. As far as I'm concerned, he was as much a victim of his own poor life choices as he was of the police officers who botched their job and killed him.

[Celtero]

MLK Is rolling around in his grave at who we martyrize these days.

[goaded]

Nobody's doing that, just look a the poll. MLK would certainly not complain about the result of the trial.

[Celtero]

@goaded People have martyrized him. Look at the fuckin' mural.

You participate in a version of reality that is very absurd to me. Maybe people seem to prefer that version. But in this reality, there is no "epidemic" of cops killing unarmed black men, there is no evidence of Chauvin being racist, and Chauvin was just trying to do his job and arrest a man committing a crime. A mob formed, the perpetrator asked to be out of the car and on the ground instead. The mob was threatening him and clouding his judgement, taking away his attention from the perp. The perp had lethal amounts of meth and fentanyl in his system. Our justice system's standard for guilt is "beyond reasonable doubt." Months of rioting, billions in damage, defense witnesses are getting pig's heads sent to their home. And here you are expecting me to agree that MLK would be happy that the jury was intimidated into a guilty on all counts verdict.

[goaded]

None of that is true.

[Celtero]

@goaded What we have here is no common ground.

Anyone who remains a police officer in 2021 is a stupid son of a bitch.

And some of us can only find solace in that we have the means to defend ourselves.

[goaded]

Do you disagree that once a *suspect* is handcuffed and on the ground, surrounded by three or four officers, they're no longer a threat? Because that really ought to be common ground.

[Celtero]

@goaded Dude, anything can happen if you let your guard down for a second. There are violent criminals who aren't afraid to take on multiple cops-while in cuffs. Chauvin is 140lbs. Floyd was 6'4" and weighed 220 lbs. You get these people who get high on PCP and literally eat other people's faces or perform feats of superhuman strength. They don't know what they're dealing with. What if he stood up and grabbed a hostage from the crowd?

The point in which doubt is inspired in me is when it was shown that Floyd had potentially lethal amounts of drugs in his system. If there were no drugs, then I'd be inclined to agree that the cause of death was the use of force. But really... no damage to breathing passages, no damage to the carotid arteries... and his death somehow was a result of the same pressure over 10 minutes? Just seems unlikely. And like I said, the standard for guilt in our justice system is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Many cops I know are either quitting or talking about how they're letting black suspects go free by not bothering with attempting arrest. It's stupid to me, but I guess the people are getting what they're asking for.

[goaded]

That's a lot of hypotheticals. None of which were the case, and all of which could only have happened before he was cuffed and down on the ground.

"What if he stood up and grabbed a hostage from the crowd?"
With his hands cuffed behind his back? Be serious.

A jury listened to *all* the evidence and didn't take long to conclude that there wasn't reasonable doubt. Why do you think you know better than them, based on snippets that probably came from right-wing sites? Did you see, for example:

"The Minneapolis police chief says officer should have stopped kneeling on neck once George Floyd stopped resisting.

Medaria Arradondo testified that Derek Chauvin's use of force violated department policy and values."

or "Dr Martin Tobin, a world renowned expert on breathing, testified on George Floyd's last moments.

He told the court that Mr Floyd could be seen trying to use his fingers and knuckles to lift up the right side of his chest in order to breathe."

Maybe your police don't know how to be police and not an army. The proof of a good police force is lack of crime, not numbers of arrests or convictions.

[Celtero]

@goaded You really need to understand how silly it is that you think the police's job is to prevent crime. How are they supposed to do that exactly? This isn't the Minority Report. You are not using your brain, you are repeating a narrative.

I don't think I know better than the jury, I suspect their ruling was based off of not wanting more riots and putting their own safety in jeopardy.

And maybe there's more evidence that'd sway my opinion... But the fact of the matter is there is no way for me to trust these mainstream positions when racism and police brutality is bemoaned every single time a police officer shoots a black person justified or not, accident or not.

Nobody from that coalition ever seems to stop to ask... "Just how many unarmed blacks are actually killed by police on an annual basis?" And certainly not "How does that compare with white people killed by police? How many police are killed in the line of duty?"

It's very apparent to the critical mind that all this is just a gear in a vehicle designed to push a narrative and get certain individuals into positions of power to fill their pockets and secure a lavish lifestyle for themselves. You really think these people care about improving the lives of the average black American? 2020 saw a large spike in murders and violent crime... I wonder why? And I guess the fact that black americans are the at most risk of being victims of violence only matters if that violence is coming from the police.

[goaded]

It's not only not "silly", it's been practiced since the early 19th century. 1829, to be precise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

[goaded]

"Nobody from that coalition ever seems to stop to ask... "Just how many unarmed blacks are actually killed by police on an annual basis?" And certainly not "How does that compare with white people killed by police? How many police are killed in the line of duty?" "

I can answer that last one, at least:

"The Officer Down Memorial Page reports 343 deaths in the line of duty.[26] The leading cause of death for 2020 is COVID-19 at 222 deaths followed by gunfire at 45 deaths. The state with the largest amount of line of duty deaths is Texas with 73 followed by Georgia with 19. The U. S. Government had 25 line of duty deaths. " en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

So, 121, in 2020. 45 by gunfire. So about eight times as many police were killed by COVID-19 than gunfire in 2020.

I wonder, have you made any comments about how dangerous the pandemic is? Did you know that vaccine uptake by police is lower than the general public?

In 2019, 13 unarmed black men (and one woman) were shot and killed by police. "This data does not include “deaths of people in police custody, fatal shootings by off-duty officers or non-shooting deaths.”". (So George Floyd wouldn't count.)
eu.usatoday.com/.../

www.washingtonpost.com/.../
"985 people have been shot and killed by police in the past year"
"half of the people shot and killed by police are White"

[Celtero]

@goaded Here's what I was focused on; how do the police PREVENT crime? Their physical presence I suppose? My contention is... I doubt you could just swap out the US police for German or UK police and suddenly there's less crime. What you're saying is almost that the police are causing crime by being "militaristic." I just don't understand what the US police do differently than European police that you have a problem with. I'm sure the guidelines for use of force aren't all that different, and this is just another case of Eurosuperiority-complex.

The number of unarmed blacks killed by police is around 27 by the highest estimates I've seen. This means they're disproportionately more likely to be victims of police violence relative to population, yet disproportionally LESS likely to be victims of police violence when you factor in crime rates. i. e. if you've got a white and a black suspect for a crime, the police are more likely to kill the white suspect.

But apparently the system is horrifically racist. I mean, Floyd was brutally killed and the perpetrator is going to prison. This definitely means the riots were justified. Billions in damage, dozens of deaths, all to go against the systemically racist American justice system. Floyd is being compared to Emmitt Till, Nancy Pelosi thanks him for "sacrificing himself." And this really is just another chapter in the US' fight for civil rights. I'm sure MLK would be proud of modern day race relations and the activist riots on behalf of black americans. Certainly not grossly regressive at all!

[goaded]

"I doubt you could just swap out the US police for German or UK police and suddenly there's less crime."
It wouldn't be sudden, but it's at least possible. It would almost certainly be less violent.

Did you bother clicking the link? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

"1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment."

Go and look here, and tell me there's nothing wrong. All the European countries have numbers killed by police in the single digits, often zero for a year, the US has around 1,000 every year, and less than half are "justified". en.wikipedia.org/.../Police_firearm_use_by_country

"[Blacks are] disproportionally LESS likely to be victims of police violence when you factor in crime rates"
Except that the crime rates depend a lot on who gets stopped and searched, and for what reason. Driving an expensive car, having an air freshener on the mirror; these are not reasons to get stopped. Drug usage is about the same for all races, but black people are more likely to enter the crime statistics because of it. Black people get locked up for longer, so they're in the statistics longer.

All that leads to distrust of the police and system, not to mention absent fathers, which people blame black men for.

[Celtero]

@goaded Yes, I read them thoroughly. And it still doesn't detail how to prevent crime, neither does that quote you provided. I searched around and it seems like only physical presence of police deters criminals from committing crimes. I suppose other security like alarms or cameras might work too... The propensity to commit crime is determined by many various socioeconomic factors, not by the police themselves. The police's role in society isn't to prevent crime, it's to enforce the law by being state-sponsored goons essentially. Someone breaks the law, the police are there to arrest or fine them, to neutralize any threat and to protect anyone in danger.

Yes, I am well aware that the US has high rates of violence and police lethal use of force. We've got a homicide rate of 5x most other developed nations after all. I still dunno why you think the police are the ones to blame... if anything the crime rate is thanks to under policing and lack of cooperation with police. You think the police enjoy dealing with criminals and potentially getting killed? I'm sure they'd rather be monitoring traffic and doing wellness checks all day. Like I said, all my cop friends quit. It pays peanuts and you have to deal with the worst aspects of humanity all day, then people turn around and call you intrinsically a horrible racist murderer just for the job you do.

[Celtero]

That's a total misrepresentation of crime rates. A black guy commits a robbery, that's +1 to the number of black people committing robberies. White guy commits a murder, that's +1 to the number of white people committing murders. The distribution for all violent crime is roughly 50/50 yet white people are more likely to be killed by police.

And you know man, consider this... Why do we know the name of some scumbag like Jacob Blake, who was nonfatally shot by police after he had raped his "babymama," was trying to abduct their three children, he reached for a knife, and this spurs a bunch of riots and unrest... But just this weekend a seven year old girl was shot dead in Chicago and 95% of people haven't even heard of this happening. No protests for her! Really goes to show that this whole George Floyd BLM business is a political operation. If you don't understand this by now then I suppose you'll always be a part of the problem.

[goaded]

"The police's role in society isn't to prevent crime, it's to enforce the law by being state-sponsored goons essentially."
That's the basic difference between US policing and policing by consent. Like I said, they're not police, they're an army.

"if anything the crime rate is thanks to under policing and lack of cooperation with police."
My God, WHY do you think there is "a lack of cooperation with police"? Perhaps because they don't treat people with respect, and see them as an enemy to be subdued?

Need I remind you that eight times as many US police were killed last year by covid-19 than gunfire? Are all your police old and sick, or is a virus that the right is so keen to suggest is practically harmless eight times more dangerous than their normal job?

You're right, I'd not heard of Jaslyn Adams until I looked it up, but it was on multiple major news sites, and she wasn't shot by the people who are supposed to be protecting people like her. How can you not see the difference?

[Celtero]

@goaded *sigh* I don't understand your rationale for this. They're an army? What's that even supposed to mean? I'm pretty sure you've just watched too many movies and have some sort of caricature perception of what a US cop is like. I mean what, do European police not arrest people?

THE DIFFERENCE is a cop shoots Ma'Khia Bryant to save another girl's life and he's another example of Police brutality Mc'racism. Lambasted for "defending people" as you say they're supposed to. And meanwhile, children are dying and nobody gives a fuck because you can't exploit their deaths for political purposes and money.

[goaded]

It's supposed to mean that they don't see themselves as members of the public but as above the citizens they're supposed to be protecting and serving, and they kill them at an outrageous rate.

static.prisonpolicy.org/.../...killings_rates.webp

Of course European police arrest people, do you think there's no middle ground between shooting people and arresting them?

What we don't have is three people a day being killed by the police. It's usually not even three people a year.

What, exactly do you suggest we should do about children being shot, if you won't do anything about guns?

As for the officer who shot the child four times, what were the last three for? Wouldn't you be distracted from attempting to stab someone by being hit by a bullet?

Maybe that particular officer was unfortunate that he shot a black child just as the jury's decision was coming in, and perhaps his colleague who said "Blue Lives Matter" had no clue that the shooter was in zero danger, but it speaks volumes to their attitude.

[goaded]

[Celtero]

@goaded Or maybe the criminals here are just more armed and likely to resist arrest? What do european police do when a suspect pulls a knife or gun on them? What do they do when they attempt to flee? You go to the site, mappingpoliceviolence. org, and 99% of the time the suspect was either fleeing arrest or had a weapon.

Yes, please bring up gun control when this was a case where the shooter was in possession illegally.

9mm doesn't have all that much stopping power and people have been known to shrug it off.

[goaded]

Clearly, you have a premium class of criminals. Why do you think they're more likely to be armed? Perhaps because there's a good chance they can pick up a gun if they break into a house?

"What do european police do when a suspect pulls a knife or gun on them?"
Why are you asking me? I'm sure you can look it up online. Probably back off, remember their face, and arrest them later.

Your take away from https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ is that it's OK that people were shot because they were running away? How much of an imminent danger is someone who's running away?

I know this is difficult for an American to understand, but imagine guns were like pocket watches. Almost nobody has a pocket watch.

If you wanted a pocket watch and were willing to break the law, how hard would it be to get one? That's the UK and guns. In the US, they're like smart phones; everyone's got one; every few houses you burgle, a lot of people you rob, have one. You think it's normal for people to have them. It's not.

How much stopping power does a 16 year old girl with a knife have? Her "victim" was a lot more likely to survive the encounter than the girl shot four times. In fact, her "victim" was lucky not to get shot.

[Celtero]

@goaded Knife wounds can be just as, if not more, deadly than shots from a pistol caliber bullet. And people shouldn't have to compromise with being stabbed so that the stabber can live.

I'm asking you because you live there and should be able to give me an answer and you speak as if you know what you're talking about. And you know, by your answer carrying a gun in Europe would apparently give you immunity to the law, lol. I tried searching it, but US cops are the hot topic and that's the only result that comes up.

They shoot a fleeing suspect so they can't get away man. I dunno why you leftists want to defend criminals at every twist and turn. You commit a crime you should face punishment. And you're here suggesting that criminals shouldn't have to obey the law as long as they can outrun the police. Or should police invent some sort of net-cannon to catch fleeing suspects like in some cartoon?

Not everyone has guns, just a fraction of the population has a lot of them. I know my household is around a dozen. Proper gun ownership dictates people keep them in gun safes. Criminals usually get their guns by other illegal means.

[goaded]

Of course knife wounds can be as deadly as a bullet, but you're still three times more likely to survive a knife wound as a bullet wound, and I'm more concerned about the last three shots he pumped into her without bothering to see what effect the first had. The first one was arguably justified, but why was the weapon in his hand a gun and not a tazer?

Carrying a gun in Europe doesn't make you immune from the law, in fact it usually makes you a criminal, so you can be arrested before you have a chance use it.

Try a different search engine. https://duckduckgo.com/ doesn't track you or only provide you with what you want to hear, unlike Google. You can specify a country, if you want. Of course, it's still hard to find examples of shootings in western Europe because we don't have many. (The entire German police force of 300,000 fired weapons 52 times in 2016, killing 11 people, and that was considered a lot.)

Someone running away from you is not an imminent threat to life. That's what the standard is; I thought you said you'd looked at the use of force guidelines?

Defending people's lives is not the same as defending criminals.

[Celtero]

@goaded Like I said, people shouldn't have to compromise with getting stabbed for the sake of the stabber, and I doubt a taser is that reliable at that range.

If the European police wanted to arrest me all I'd have to do is point a gun at them and according to you they'd "probably back off, remember my face, and arrest me later." But you're just trying to avoid the fact that European police would probably just shoot too if they were armed.

Lol. So a serial killer is fleeing from cops and they shouldn't shoot him because he isn't an "imminent threat?" What if he gets away?

You're defending criminals lives... and empowering criminals is usually a bad thing for innocent people.

[goaded]

Have you ever noticed that during this conversation the civilians whose shootings you're justifying are always assumed to be guilty of some major crime? They're all serial killers, now, for example. Will they be pedophiles, next?

Yes, of course, if you point a gun at the police in Europe you've got a pretty good chance of getting shot. Given that, why do you think European police so rarely use their guns?

If you threaten a police officer with a knife, you're probably not going to get shot, but you'll almost certainly be arrested, charged, and convicted.

[Celtero]

@goaded Yes, and it's is very simple. The number 1 way to not be harmed by police? DON'T COMMIT CRIME. DON'T HURT PEOPLE. DON'T STEAL. Number 2 way not to be harmed by police? Don't fight them when they try to arrest you. You'd be hard pressed to find someone killed by police who doesn't have a criminal record or was resisting arrest. Is it too much to ask people to not act with malevolence?

The BLM narrative is an overt lie for political power, and they have useful idiots like yourself attacking the police, who are just trying to do their job. Well done! Defend all the rapists, murderers and thieves. What a compassionate and generous soul you are!

Is there ACTUALLY any problems being solved by whining about police? Okay, less policing. Whoops, murder rates increasing drastically for the first time in decades. More people dying from crime? Oh well, at least we punished police for hurting criminals.

But if people want less policing and more crime, then they should get it. And you know what's sad? When I meet people with your beliefs I always wonder in the back of my head if you're just pulling some elaborate troll, or are some sort of Chinese operative with the mission of sowing division with these racial narratives. But more likely, I just once again underestimate the stupidity of humanity.

[goaded]

Yes, very good, don't commit a crime and the chance of being harmed by the police goes down. But the list of things not to do also includes following orders too eagerly, like the guy who was told to get his licence, reached into his car for it and got shot. How many totally dead innocent people is an acceptable number?

In case you missed it, I never said get rid of the police. I said they should not act like an occupying army, breeding mistrust and resentment, and act more like police. In other words, more policing, less shooting, fewer deaths, and less crime.

I don't understand this attitude that American police are so "brave", and "risk their lives every day", when they kill 20 civilians for every one of them that gets killed, and the pandemic was eight times as deadly to them as gunfire last year.

[Anonymous]

Any man who robbed a pregnant woman at gun point is no hero.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

gun aimed straight at the unborns baby's head

[Ripper_E]

What the fuck is heroic about him? Just because he died doesn't make him a hero.

[andreasderjuengere]

There aren't enough roads, parks etc. to be 'named' after some minor incidents.

[msc545]

He was not a hero. He was, however, a murder victim.

[Bakcula]

No he's a scape goat for black people who want a reason to burn and riot.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Imagine if it was a nazi cop, and I was killed

I'm a jew

I'm also white..

Do you think there would be the same amount of outcry, for me, as it was for floyd?

[Kas19]

Probably

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

I would certainly hope so

[Rangers]

No, he was a drug addict and career criminal. The world is a better place without him but that doesn't mean he deserved to die

[CaptainSmartass]

What did he do to make him a hero? From what I've heard, he wasn't exactly an angel.

Simples...

[Anonymous]

even in death, this career and lifelong criminal has found a way to inspire violence and fuel a racial divide. To the left, that's the definition of a hero.

[blondfrog]

A hero saves people. I wouldn't say a hero but a victim.

[Anonymous]

Facts are that he is a hero because he’s gave his life for a cause. He is only an example of what happens to us every single day but it was only recorded this one time.

[exitseven]

Do you think he would have done this willingly?

[Anonymous]

He was a drug using criminal.
Any memorials to him would be offensive to me. But then, I don’t count!

[wickhamhayls]

hero for what? i see him as a tragic victim. died just because of some racist cunt's bigotry.

[wankiam]

he is yet another victim... thats all

[BCRanger10]

I don't really see how he was or is.

[AlexanderAnttila]

What act of heroism did he perform?

[_no_one_]

Not a hero but a symbol

[Archerer]

He's not a hero... He was murdered by a cop.

[OddBeMe]

Not a hero. Just an innocent victim.

[chriscdi]

so he became a hero cause he died?

[Nachowedgie]

Criminals are not heros

[Anonymous]

No he’s just a victim

[Massageman]

HArdly.

[Waldoe]

Victim

[7771999]

Criminal scumbag

[Anonymous]

he faked his death