I’d like for the US to aim for more democracy, it’s extremely clear to me at least looking at how especially during Covid the rates for homelessness have sky rocketed tremendously as well as the average American not even being able to afford a 1 bedroom rental.
Not to mention :In recent years, the Republican Party and its wealthy backers have been attempting to undermine the U. S. electoral system by gerrymandering Congressional districts and engaging in voter suppression methods aimed at constraining the ability to vote among minorities, especially African Americans.
If we’d focus more on democracy, these situations would most likely happen way less.
I disagree with making these things equivalent. That is not how Conservatism works.
We didn't choose to be Democrat or Capitalist.
The viewpoint of Conservatism is that we choose to be Capitalist because we are Democratic. We can choose any economic system we wish. It is a trap of the extremists on the net who make the claim that political ideology, economic philosophy and governing principles are all the same and equivalent. When in reality socialism is an economic philosophy totally compatible with a Democratic society which is totally compatible with being Conservative ethically, morally, and financially. But we Americans as a rule favor Capitalism over Socialism. Just because there are some social programs that have had tremendous success, does not mean we should abandon all Capitalist principles in favor of socialism. We could debate about these economic principles. But there can be no debate about democracy. That forms the basis of everything we used to claim to be. What you have now is the extremist element like the American Taliban springing up in our midst, making the claim that Democracy no longer serves their interests.
It is not true that the Republicans only represent the rich. Otherwise, you would not get so much drivel thrown your way. The rich may be using the Republicans to game the system now. But there are a lot of traditional Conservatives who still tout actual Conservative principles.
In exact oppositione to that, "White" nationalism is the driving force on that side for many now. It is all about their intolerance, ignorance, and racism/sexism. And if/when they cede from the union, you wouldn't have to worry about their embrace of socialism. Socialism is fine with them. As long as they feel their tax dollars are not going to anyone else. Even as they receive more than they give. Look at Kentucky;
1. You can't make the argument that earning more capital (money) on your labor results in you having less money to afford an apartment. Also if they tax you even more based on the more you make, then you would be stuck in poverty forever. People become rich because they or their family members started a business, not because the gov just hands them money, and those businesses cost money to startup and run.
2. You can't replace income with democracy, the 2 aren't even interchangable. You don't do majority votes on how much anyone gets to own, or who owns what. And the issues with voting in elections are not why people are poor, because the president and congress can't make more money without devalueing the dollar, and if the dollar is worth less, it follows that you are less wealthy for each hour you work or item you sell, so it just increases poverty to do that.
3. It makes no difference who gets elected, they all do the same thing. Also I don't buy that homelessness increased. Not with how many times the covid ban on evictions got extended and how backed up the courts are because of it, and if it has increased, it's because wages haven't kept up with inflation, not because of voting (no president is ever going to give a minimum wage hike that high, and people aren't going on strike anymore over wages when they should).
4. Universal healthcare already exists, and is a terrible idea, private healthcare is superior in quality and safer.
5. Affordable housing exists already in the form of hud/section 8 programs, the issue is that the demand is too high because wages are too low and taxes are too high. so too many people need vouchers and not even available properties or vouchers exist to meet that need.
6. Affordable college exists in the form of fasfa and other programs.
7. If we ditched income and property taxes entirely, the average minimum wage worker could afford to buy or build their own house mortgage free, and still pay off college just fine.
8. Income and property taxes should not exist at all for anyone, there is enough money to fund poverty and disability based programs from sales tax alone.
This is a bizarre question to pose. One can be both Democratic and capitalist. These are not opposing ideas. Perhaps the question you are meaning to ask is ‘Should the US be more socialist or capitalist’ because those are the differences you were really pointing out.
They are opposing though, the idea of democracy is that Democracy rests upon the principles of majority rule and individual rights.
In america the rich 1% are the ones hoarding almost all the wealth, power, etc. which goes against the concept of democracy but works in favor of capitalism since with the concept of capitalism, at least one class has to be exploited. Which is why in the US you can see a lot of companies, where the companies will pay child labor or cheap labor overseas with the factories releasing pollution that does irreversible damage to the planet.
As well as horrible conditions in those factories for the workers, so that consumers in the US get “the best price, for items” when in my opinion at least, think that’s not the priority. The priority should be supplying workers with the pay they deserve for their work rather than allowing the people up too the get richer by stealing their wages, underpaying, exploiting other countries.
I think your frustrations stem from whether or not capitalism positively effects you personally. And in this country it does, whether you want to accept that or not. I think, because of your age, not in spite of it mind you, this may be a difficult concept for you to understand. Individual rights (which you mention as part of democracy) are what made it possible for those top 1%ers to be just that. And majority rule (although broken up slightly by the principles of being a representative democracy) is exactly why those in top, stay on top. They are capable of influencing the very individuals we elect to represent us. In essence, we are MOSTLY a democracy that truly enjoys the benefits of healthy capitalism, but must daily fight our baser urges to be angry that anyone could have that much wealth while so many suffer. As soon as you can start focusing on how YOU can make the world a better place instead of how you think somebody else should do it because they have more, you’ll find some peace.
I’m not frustrated in any way, im saying you can’t say that we are a democracy if almost everything is dictated by capitalism. Even things such as food, water, and shelter which are basic human needs. These are considered commodities?
And yes, you are absolutely correct. We benefit from Capitalism, but at what cost?
Im not angry at these people for being rich, I dislike the fact that they got rich by exploiting the working class, wage theft, and in some cases even fraud.
It’s a firm moral belief of mines that you should be paid the means of your production, so the fact that I’m going to be going to college and getting a job soon. While looking and seeing housing prices skyrocket even though wages are getting lower (only recently it seems they’re improving a little due to people backing out of jobs during the covid pandemic). I’m concerned, I would like the best outcome for my generation as well as the future generations to come.
I’d also like to add, that this isn’t an individual issue. This is kind of a US issue that several Americans are faced with now so it’s a little unrealistic to say that this is an issue that I have to focus on fixing myself. It’s an issue that’s just not going to be fixed if nothing happens in office.
The child labor is coming from socialist countries we dont want to be like them. Although its not ideal for the people in those countries its what they are forced to do to survive. Over here because of our democracy you see different wages in different places. As a society we can have an influence on that and the rights we have but socialism doesn’t give you that option. Yes we will need to work for food, water and human needs but thats everywhere you go and capitalism gives us the oportunity to do it better than anywhere else so we can live well.
H&M, you might’ve shopped their once. They’ve been caught in scandals many times, and they have always been involved in major humanitarian issues over many years.
On the other hand, they are showing their image of the Eco-friendly brand but still, child labor is being used in bulk.
Forever 21: they use child labor
GAP, child labor ✅
Nike, child labor ✅
Zara, child labor ✅
Urban Outfitters, child labor ✅
Adidas, child labor ✅
I hope you see what I’m getting at, the child labor very much exists in the US. I’m staying on topic and not talking about socialist cause I’ve already made a question about that, I’m concerned about how capitalism promotes this exploitation. Be honest, if these brands weren’t making a profit with this labor. If america gave a shit about the international humanitarian rights treaty that they signed than this wouldn’t be an issue and I wouldn’t be talking.
Lastly, for some food for thought. Everyone isn’t like the us and their are actually a few countries I can name that don’t commodify basic human needs that have seen great results, an example I’ll give is Finland.
They’ve had extreme growth in their economy ever since their housing first programs were implemented homelessness is no longer a problem for them.
I understand those companies use child labor and it’s unfortunate but the labor is done in other countries that allow this and i can't say things will get better for those children and there families if the companies stoped doing buisness. Its kind of like a just ignore it and it will go away thing but those people still live the same life and they need to do something about it
Which companies are doing this? All the companies doing this are located in the USA. The question was never hm, but it’ll never get better anyways so what? Child slavery’s ok. Child labors ok, because you just ignore it. Most of these countries are being heavily exploited by multiple companies based in the US. This violates the humanitarian rights treaty which the US signed.
It also goes against the United Nations CRC, which states The CRC focuses on four aspects of children’s rights: (1) participation by children in decisions affecting them; (2) protection of children against discrimination, neglect and exploitation; (3) prevention of harm to children; and (4) provision for children’s basic needs
What these companies do violates literally all of these categories yet they win their child labor lawsuits and are allowed to continue what they’re doing. That’s a big problem and issue.
It’s corruption in the US government as well as capitalism enabling the exploitation of literal children.
The us made a legal agreement not a moral one. You can't apply ethics to everyone only laws. And because there are loopholes there is nothing to legally do about it. It needs to be written better so that there can be a case against them
I would say democracy and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. Democracy is a political system, capitalism is an economic system. Indeed, democratic capitalism is basically a system in which the entire country is, politically, just one giant workers' union (whereas democratic socialism is where the country is one giant group of stockholders).
The theory of capitalism is fine, at least to the extent that any other economic theory is fine - which is to say it relies on the people in charge not being asshats. But the problem is when a person is an asshat they tend to not want to stop being an asshat. And when they also have tons of cash, as is more likely for asshats under capitalism, they'll spend it on ensuring they can remain an asshat with little or no scrutiny.
Whereas democracy is, above all, a system of scrutiny. This is why capitalists tend to be at odds with democracy. But its not a requirement. Plenty of capitalists are advocates for democracy, they just aren't particularly active about it.
Interesting dialogue. Then you site media outlets that are of similar political thinking to support your position.
the confusion starts when to have missed the US constitution, we are a republic. We have checks and balances deeply imbedded into our governing system. When you say we need to be more Democratic you are saying if 50.1% of the population wants “x”, then that’s the way it should be for everyone. In general that’s called mob rule, and that’s why we are a republic. The majority is not allowed to overrun any minority. Minority opinion still has a place on our society.
the problem we have today with our two major political parties is that us no room for compromise. As an elected official you either do as the leaders say or they take away the financing you need to stay elected.
your dialogue sites the wealthy Republicans, you have not heard evidently that the most powerful tech companies in the world are pulling all the strings. These are not republicans pulling the strings.
I am one of those undecided voters that still thinks for himself. I am proud to be an American and believe we will work through the difficult challenges we are facing. But changing our system to reflect only the feelings of a mob, especially one that receives all of its information from one unified source, is not the answer.
I love it when people who enjoy all of the benefits of capitalism - and would never personally give them up to help someone else - wants the rest of us to do exactly that.
Capitalism is what happens automatically in a free market. If you have something, and someone else wants it, they can make you an offer, but it is up to you whether you accept the offer or not (or whether you counter offer). An exchange only happens when both parties prefer the offer to what they already have.
Capitalism has dramatically raised the standard of living for everyone who lives under it. Moving labor to Asian countries has meant that those people have an option, besides literally starving to death (as was happening) or toiling away on farms doing all the work by hand. What may seem like poor wages here are often 20 times their previous annual income, which is why there's a long line for those factory jobs. And capitalist pressure has forced further improvements in factory conditions.
As far as homeless in the US, that's not a homeless problem, it's an addiction problem. Nearly all homeless are alcoholics or drug addicts, and most importantly, they don't want to stop. In every major city, homeless people are offered free treatment programs and housing if they accept it, but nearly all choose to remain in the streets. Talk to people who work with the homeless, or volunteer yourself, and you will quickly learn that you have been lied to.
Watch the news from other sources, and you will find that you are only hearing one very biased side of the story. Listen to several different perspectives and then look at the evidence and use your own brain instead of just thinking what you are told to. It will be a refreshing experience.
God kids are stupid these days... then again their teachers are in their early 20's now so I guess that's where it comes from. Zero life experience educating people with less than zero life experience. This is the result.
The word you're looking for is collectivist. Collectivist vs competitive markets i. e. capitalist. I also love the incessant republican smears as if leftist types aren't the party of the rich now. Or haven't been fully invested in the current state of the country. We call them the Uniparty now pumpkin. Democrats do a thing, republicans bitch and moan for a few weeks then eventually cave. Or outright side with leftists regarding some freedom snatching policy like the patriot act, NDAA, or blowupbrownpeopleoverseas act. Fun fact, the people telling you young people to embrace collectivism, are doing so because they want to crush your upward mobility. THEY are the elites, you are the servants.
"YOU need to wear the mask pleb, I am exempt.""YOU stay home pleb, so that I do not have to smell your rabble stench on the way to the hair dresser!"
THIS is the true face of collectivism, not this fairytale BS you learn in school kiddo.
No you are just a brainwashed dinosaur old man stuck in the past and all the brainwashing they shoved down your throat. Now go yell at a caregiver something about the commies and the reds are coming
Democracy is an evil way to organize a society. You mean to tell me a convicted violent druggie who has contributed nothing to society, in fact has taken part in destroying society should have a vote that's equal to a medical researcher or an engineer?
Also, capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system, the two aren't related. Capitalism should be the prime mover for America. For me I don't like when people put a price tag on everything, but when you have massive international corporations that have no allegiance to your country that is what you get. What you see in America is not capitalism. Capitalism only exists for the blue collar and middle class. The wealthy gave up on capitalism a long time ago and created a form of communism for themselves that involves relying on the government every time they fucked up. Then we have the lower class where they are wholly dependent on the government. And they too, like the wealthy, are running a scam. When I lived in Philly, it was quite common for welfare recipients to sell off their EBT card to obtain the cash to buy drugs, merchandise, and items that weren't necessary for surviving or getting themselves out of poverty. Also, many of the black women I worked around were teaching the younger black girls how to get pregnant in order to scam the welfare system for almost everything.
There's a huge income disparity between the super rich and normal people. There is something seriously wrong with that. Elon Musk launching rockets every week while we have 6 million homeless and tons of mentally ill people and others worrying about getting life savings treatment or dying so their family does go broke. Something is wrong with the priorities. Europe doesn't make their people work to the bone to get livable wages and benefits. Americans are miserable and lonely and it has a lot to do with the workplace environment. More rights for workers, now. If you don't agree that's fine but be respectful before saying something nasty.
Exactly. Even my mom who’s been the definition of hard working her whole life was homeless for a few weeks (we stayed in a rented air bnb) cause we just couldn’t afford our old apartment anymore after covid. It’s a bigger problem than people think, and the fact that most people are brainwashed from a young age that “anyone can make it by their bootstraps” people assume that theirs something inherently wrong with homeless people.
Homeless people are treated like less than human in this country. Housing first programs excel and have nearly ended homelessness completely in Finland, I have no idea why the US doesn’t try the same thing.
Capitalist and democratic go hand in hand. In Free market Capitalism (without government supported monopolies) you can make choices between many competitors based on their ability to produce value. The wealthy in Capitalism are very good at meeting the demands of their customers.
In Socialism the government controls the means of production and is almost always less efficient than capitalism because the customer generally has no choice. The wealthy in Socialism are the politicians and bureaucrats that run the system.
Capitalism runs into problems when monopolies get established and customer choice becomes meaningless. In Socialism there is no choice which is anti democratic by definition. In Monopolistic Capitalism there is no choice as well which is also anti democratic. However in free market Capitalism there are many choices which is the essence of democracy.
Democratic? Democracy is a form of government. We are actually a democratic republic. Not a "pure" democracy.
Capitalist? That is an economic structure.
If you do not have a democracy these are your choices: Absolute Monarchy Limited Monarchy Dictatorship. Oligarchy. Totalitarianism. Theocracy.
These are your types of economies: Market Economy, Planned Economy, Centrally Planned Economy, Socialist, and Communist Economies
You are comparing apples and oranges to give democracy (type of rule) and capitalism (a type of market/economy system) as the 2 choices of an either or question.
It makes me believer you really don't know anything about these subjects. I hope you do not vote.
There’s absolutely no reason why I can’t capitalism and government aren’t intertwined. No one ever argued they were the same, you made that argument up all on your own.
Regulating the economy can be very bad when implemented poorly... and in modernity, often titan companies are fine if the government adds regulations since the consumer is the one who really eats the penalty since they will continue to purchase the goods at an inflated cost anyway. Small businesses though... they get screwed as well. And big companies always just have the option of moving. You can whine about taxing corporations all day, but it doesn't do anyone any good if they just move to China to avoid taxes.
A great example I saw the other day was when someone was whining that a company didn't hire full time to avoid having to give their emlpoyees full-time benifits and it's like... yeah, that's what happens when you force things onto companies, they just find ways around it.
"The rich," big corporations, and high profile non-political elites in general overwhelmingly favor the Democratic party now more than ever; your entire stance on this is about 20 years behind the curve... And democracy and capitalism are in no way mutually exclusive; in fact in practice neither one exists without the other in some context.
Democratic is not the opposite of capitalist. If you mean less profiteering, or less bullying, and more focused on wellbeing of its different socioeconomic groups, I would say yes. But the globe in general is too obsessed with production at the cost to feeling good/finding the right person to live with and enjoying your time and life with them. That is _miles_ better than the chase of money and wealth. What you call 'to smell the roses' (which is to really be in love with someone, and to help each other with those things, rather than block and be an obstacle for attention or any benefit
Democracy is a political ideology, while capitalism is an economic model. Both are based on liberty.
And it is the freedom of speech that allows the 1% rich to convince others that their life sucks cus of immigration and welfare and not because the greediness of the 1%. And it is democracy that allows those uneducated stupid people to decide who makes the decisions.
Capitalist, it's a proven system that drives more people out of poverty than any other system could ever dream of doing, the issues arise when government actors interfere in the system.
Socialism only leads to those same leaders having everything while everyone else starves to death, look at anywhere socialism has been attempted for proof.
I’m not even talking about socialism. I’m talking about democracy and capitalism, actually read the question before you answer 🤷🏽♀️ I've already done a question on socialism so I don’t feel like talking about it on this thread
What's more democratic, choosing where you take your business and who you do it with, or having a gun put to your head and forced to do it with the government? The first one is capitalism, what we currently have, the second is socialism. It's an easy choice
You've argued for socialism over and over, now you're backing off? What did you mean by placing democracy vs capitalism then? And the country was built off of limited government and freedom, not a majority of uninformed lazy people forcing their will on everyone else
@008kingifrit in order for you to fully understand my question you have to have a ground understanding of capitalism and democracy.
Capitalism promotes and encourages the exploitation of at least one class, in the specific case of the US I’d say this is the working class.
These people are the ones that do all the work but don’t get paid a fair amount for their means of production because these billionaires are billionaires from wage theft. Underpaying workers puts money in their pockets, these workers being under paid and exploited keep the consumers happy cause they’re getting exactly what they want for “the best price” instead of getting what they want for a fair price that incentives the workers for their labor.
This inherently contradicts democracy, an example in the real world I’ll give if this is the fast fashion industry we’re a bunch of popular clothing and even designer brands will go as far to fund child labor or cheap labor over seas in order to sell their clothes and make a profit.
Or the food industry putting a bunch of disgusting micro fibers and chemicals in our food in order to preserve the food longer to “make a bigger profit”
I think this is horrible and in these two cases I believe democracy should be out first before capitalism. Does this make more sense? This is the easiest way I can explain it
@Jaysonava the #1 argument i see from communists on the internet is "you don't understand X" where x is whatever term is currently being discussed. i guess you kids just have secret definitions for everything you're unable to share =)
I'm not a communist. I hate communism. My uncle escaped a communist regime in Romania and is very far right. The problem with a lot of Americans (and I am one) is that they don't understand that the inadequately named 'free markets' are not a means to resolving the problems they are most worried about. They just insist that they free markets will solve things and if it fails then it's the governments fault.
@Jaysonava IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE ACCUSED OF COMMUNISM... don't argue like one. make your point, never say "you don't know what communism is" that's what communists say
the "market" is just the sum total collective will and dreams of the people in it. while the desires of others can hurt us. its not usually what we want to blame directly for our problems.
@007kingifrit if you’re going to make a short witty response that barely engages with my detailed response. Just not replying is an option if you’re not going to make any arguments ✅
@Jaysonava because in America, anything that sounds remotely progressive = communist, because American politics are extremely broken and small compared to the rest of the developed countries
Well as I say, what was frustrating about Texas is that people kept championing the 'free markets', insisting on the lie that free markets are to be idolized and adhered to almost religiously, and then they go on endorsing policies that have nothing to do with free markets.
For example, people in Texas trying to push cheap drive through food into everyone's faces by targeting poor areas with families in the poor suburbs. Even though the 'free markets' that they worship are indicating that healthier food is more desireable. Not only that, but Texas food culture is already heavily heavily regulated. So what are they talking about? It's regulated to the point that any claim that Texas is a 'Free Market Libertarian State' where the 'free markets' decide is obscene.
So what you have is bad food being sanctioned by the politics.
@doopayo On the subject of 'free market' capitalists. "Free market capitalism' is not a good idea. The USA is not even a good example of free market capitalism and the policies that the right support are not free market ideas!
@Jaysonava even left wing sources now admit that obesity is not related to a lack of access to healhty foods. build a grocery store in the middle of a black "food desert" and black people will... still eat the junk food.
You need to finish school before thinking about such things, kiddo. Capitalism and democracy are the prime cause of wars and inequality. It's like arguing weather to release a wolf or tiger into the playpen to deal with the unruly children.
Capitalism and democracy are the prime cause of wars and inequality. Lets deconstruct this... The prime cause of wars... This is generally the ability of a nation state to take your stuff without consequence. If your nation has enough soldiers and allies to prevent this you will have peace. If not you will have war. The only rule in international relations is what you can enforce with violence and power.
The prime cause of inequality... This is the human condition... everyone has different abilities to produce things of value. If you can produce more things of value than others, you will receive more benefits than others.
None of these things has anything to do with Capitalism or democracy.
You're pretty smart for a 15 year old. That's exactly what the Republicans are up to every election, especially after losing the last Presidential one.
"during Covid the rates for homelessness have sky rocketed tremendously as well as the average American not even being able to afford a 1 bedroom rental." This is due to government mandates. If we had a more "capitalist" system businesses would not have closed and thus more people would have jobs. Government regulations and taxes are the largest expenses for more real estate businesses, these costs get passed to the consumer. They could easily be lowered if the system was more "capitalist".
No one with a brain would vote demoncrap The 'educated' are brainwashed in those liberal indoctrination centres, I experienced their evil ways first hand and I was one of the lucky few not forced to suck the sweat off Biden's commie ballsack
A full democracy doesn't work , which is why the U. S. isn't fully democratic. But capitalism is an economic system , democracy is an ideological system they don't conflict or something like that.
Aside from some corruption capitalism can cause, its a complex topic.
actually capitalism is the least selfish ideology ever. it encourages us to use our natural human selfishness to benefit others or we get no rewards for it
That's great in theory, but in practice, its manipulation of the buisness market via the law makers with bribes (donations) and closed door secret deals that only benifit companies with financial power and backing.
