Why a lot of black people democrats and BLM members get edgy at me when I criticize BLM at all and opt for a better movement which does the same?

[WilliamPamer446]

here's my idea. A positive protest movement which advocates for society to better value black people and the black community to improve the wellbeing and life of the black community by (
1 improving schools and colleges, and opting to stop its political brainwashing and for more political netural approach and not bullying the black community into being democrats, or republicans (2 Protesting criminal violence in the ghetto against black people (3 Showing how not all gun related or physical conflicts is both parites being guilty, but black people defending themselves from criminals (3 Protest against all forms of black murder not just police and fake phony alleged white supremacists, like people who kill or kidnap black kids or (4 Give light to police sexual harrasment of black women (5 Allow police brutality itself to be taken serously for all people so we can show how it affects black people (6 Protest against schools and show how the way we treat black kids is adultification and can mess up there development (7 Show light to issues that affect people in the ghetto like a family member being sexually abused and they go and gangbang the person and get arrested. Lets take that seriously and let a little vigilante justice slide or respond to it more appropiately.

[Soteris]

Your idea of a more positive movement is actually objectively worse and honestly a bit racist not to mention makes no fucking sense.

BLM is asking for the literal BARE MINIMUM of social change, simply to not be harassed and murdered for literally no reason. They are not asking for any special privileges or compensation, just dont make their lives miserable for what their skin color is. That is EXCEPTIONALLY reasonable and unarguable which is partially why the right wing HATES IT SO MUCH. The more "pure" a movement is the harder it is to attack and undermine it. Its pretty much impossible to argue against someone not wanting to be killed for existing.

Putting aside all the other nonsense in your proposed movement, this is why it would never work. If you can't even argue for not being killed which is literally the most no-brainer I have ever heard without meeting SERIOUS resistance, what makes you think ANYTHING you just listed would be accepted? Republicans would NEVER agree to any of that and the movement would literally go nowhere.

But there is another very important distinction with BLM and your example which perhaps goes against you more specifically. Your movement is what you call a "positive" movement, however.. what does that actually mean? In other words you are victim blaming. Your solution is not really that black people should not be discriminated against but that they must step up and literally improve themselves so that they will not be targeted in the future, as if their situation today somehow justifies their treatment.

BLM does not do this. They dont push for improving schools so black people can become more respected in society by becoming higher educated. They dont push for ghettos to become safer or less stereotyped by the right wing. They dont advocate for black people to go above and beyond for social validation and to not be persecuted. They are simply asking for the bare minimum of being treated like humans like any other.

[WilliamPamer446]

Its not special privilege to take out political indoctrination in high schools and stop the adultification of black kids which hurts black community and also everyone else, try to stop sexual harrasment of black women, try to end negative stereotypes not by bullying others but by showing positive pottrayals in movies the elites do like to show

The bible says that the first will be last and the last will be first in heaven. You better think maybe we should be helping the oppressed like waht jesus wanted. Cultural drama clouds your mind.

[WilliamPamer446]

Nope nothing justifies there current treatment. And I am not victim blaming I just think we need to show that black people are not bad people and look at how I am blaming the school system and a lot of white people for a lot of these problems

[Soteris]

*sigh* First of all, not Christian. Dont care what the bible or Jesus says. Secondly, there you go again. Putting aside your conspiracy theory regarding higher education you are still thinking that the way to solve this situation is to show that "black people are not bad people".

That is pretty much the whole issue boiled down to its core. The idea that "black people are not bad people"... As if black people are somehow not people already or that if they were bad people then this would be justified. Let me tell you the most uncontroversial statement you will possibly ever object to in your whole life.

Even if black people were bad people they should still not be oppressed or discriminated against.

There is no requirement to having the right to be treated as a person. Why are you trying to hold a higher standard for black people?

[WilliamPamer446]

Fuck republicans they dont run society.

[WilliamPamer446]

I am not you moron I am telling everyone that we need to fix these issues to fix society, not just black people. I want white people to work hard to fix those issues above and stop being so ignorant. And I want the black community to do this stuff so they can show they are not like the few degenerates in there community that make the whole community look bad.

[Soteris]

I am not that interested in what you think you are doing, I am more interested in what you ARE doing. Its not normal for people to be intentionally wrong, they are pretty much always of the opinion that they are correct.

As such I have demonstrated why you are wrong and why the things you want to do would not work. Beyond that its your problem if you want to accept reality or not.

[Datboi65]

See, I don't think you're wrong in what you're saying, just how you say it. I think we as people need to learn how to he diplomatic in how we communicate. Essentially, this isn't a debate, it's a discussion. The guy believes that us Black folks can do a better job protesting (which isn't something I agree with since we are asking for the bare minimum afterall), but I would rather calmly explain why that's the case, rather than furiously insult the guy for writing down the question. It does seem like he's genuine after all, because in the short time I've been in this forum, I have seem a lot fo trolling going on with regards to the movement, so that's something I can give him credit for.

[Soteris]

@Datboi65 I approach every conversation with an open mind and a friendly disposition, granted I target specific people whom I believe will not return this favor. I do however start judging people from their original message and in this case his original post is quite abrasive on me such as his display of racism, dishonest arguments, pushing of conspiracy theories etc.. Basically I am going to remove some of my good will when replying to him at the very start because I dont think he deserves it.

Beyond that I am not here to have productive discussions anyway. If they happen, great! But I am not looking for them. I am here for my own entertainment which is poking fun at people for being wrong and unwilling to admit it. As such my goal is not to change his mind. If he can absorb the very real and valid arguments and evidence I present then honestly that is something I can respect.

I believe fundamentally that humans should be more honest with themselves. If he gets winded up by childish insults and derogatory language to the point where he freely ignore the actual discussion and facts that I present then that is the extent of his value in my eyes. Facts over feelings and all that.

So while you might want to give him credit, he has failed all my parameters and I no longer respect his feelings on this matter. I got no reason to believe he is genuine in his desire for having a productive discussion based on his lack of understanding, his blatant misinformation, his dishonest arguments and his dismissal of what I have said.

[Datboi65]

The context of the phrase "facts over feelings" is generally used when a person is presented statistical data, and they tend to reject it while insisting that their opinion is more valid than factual evidence, not when the argument is presented in a derogatory manner. Look, I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't mean it's the right approach. I have had discussions on this forum that have turned very sour very quick, and that wasn't on my part. Like I said, you may encounter some trolls in this platform, but just because someone is uneducated at a certain topic, that doesn't mean that they are trolling. The guy didn't call you any words on his first reply, no insults, and he has stated that he is politically neutral. He might be misinformed, but we all learn something from time to time. If we could all have some patience, we might end up not having that many problems after all.

[Soteris]

@Datboi65 I never intended to use the phrase "Facts over feelings" in the traditional sense but more to highlight how I overlook emotionally charged language and insults if there are actual valid points behind them. Likewise I expect someone who dont respect our conversation to do the same or spiral down into childish squabble. Again, if he had at any point looked past the pointless insults and engaged with the actual argument such as the flaws in his movement I pointed out or the pros I demonstrated with BLM then I would dial back on the insults and engage him in a constructive conversation again. He did not.

You appear to miss the point of why I am here though. I am here for my own entertainment, not to change hearts and minds. The fact that I gave him the olive branch by honestly giving him my critique and facts as an opportunity to have a honest discussion and perhaps a chance to learn is not because that was my original intention. While its a gross oversimplification and not really accurate you can consider me a "troll" but I specifically troll people using sound arguments and facts and only to those who refuses to honestly participate in the debate.

Usually I let them undermine the conversation over a few more replies before getting to the name calling but this guy in particular broke so many ethical and intellectual rules for debating that I dont feel too bad talking down to him. If it was just a case of him being uneducated or wrong then I would be happy to have a perfectly cordial discussion with him but from the conversation I have had with him so far he is being malicious, if perhaps unintentional. I do not take kindly to that.

[Datboi65]

I gotta say I'm surprised, in a good way. This is the first time I've seen a post criticizing the movement without saying something along the lines of (BLM is ANTIFA) or (BURN LOOT MURDER), and offering an alternative, unlike what happened after the kneeling incident in 2017. As far as alternatives, that can be discussed. Here's what I think:

1) I actually agree that for us Black folks that we shouldn't be loyal to just one political party. However, there's a technical issue. You see, the two-party system cannot represent the political diversity of Black America, and not All Black people think the same. At that point, the voting patterns will fall down to priorities. There are Black people that are more socially conservative (like myself) who believe in waiting for marriage, practicing religion, and reject ideals of feminism, and others who are more liberal and individualistic who think otherwise. Then, what are the priorities? To a lot of us, it is the issue of systemic discrimination. Even though we can disagree on how someone should live their life, most of us (67%) tend to vote to the more liberal part of the two, the Democrats because they are more likely to address the issue of racism as a problem affecting the country. However, as you know, we have evidence that the Democrats haven't done enough with their actions to fix the issue of police and prison reform, so we find ourselves trapped. On the one hand, if we don't vote, the Black agenda doesn't get fulfilled. In the other hand, if we do vote, the barely minimum is being met, which isn't good enough. How do we overcome this? Well, I believe there's a lot of value in the Black dollar. If we can organize, we can play the political game like everyone else in put money into both parties, and let them compete for the Black agenda and Black votes. When you put money down, there's now something to lose, so they will be more likely to meet your demands.

2) When it comes to violence in the projects, I believe that is a symptom of a much larger issue. You see, we all know what HDI is (Human Development Index). It is measured as the average of Income, Life expectancy and Education. For Black people, that value is at 0.7, the lowest of all groups. Just by that alone, there's a problem, since the Average American has an HDI of 0.92. A lower HDI doesn't mean decreased intelligence, it just means bad circumstances of living, since your education can also depend on your environment. Less education and more poverty is more likely to result in more violent criminal behavior, and with the wide availability of fire arms, that's a recipe for disaster. We don't see that behavior amongst upper-middle class/upper class Black families, because violence is mostly common amongst the least fortunate, not the middle class. A protest may be cool, but it will not solve anything. Solving the problem requires long-term vision, like improving the quality of education in the poor school districts, creating more job opportunities, and a shift in behavior towards marriage as opposed to giving birth out-of-pocket, that are ll factors that can contribute to the problem.

3) The reason why we don't see that happening, is because of abuse of authority. To add a better understanding, Black people know that if you neighbor kills your brother, you can rest assured he will go to prison for the rest of his life. If a cop kills your brother? Not guaranteed, and if he does, it will be a tough battle in court, and he will most likely get a reduced sentence. The circumstances are simply not the same.

4) Agreed.

[Datboi65]

5) We know police brutality can affect others as well. However, it affects Black folks disproportionately more than others, and there's data out there to support the claim. 2.5× more likely to get shot than White people, and 1 in 3 Black men will go to jail in their life time, compared to 1 in 17 White men, and 1 in 6 Latinos. See, there are 2 factors for police brutality:

A) Abuse of authority. This is when a police officers bullies you for not following his orders, even if his claims are baseless and you are not guilty of anything. This can happen to white people too.

B) Implicit Bias. This one is unique only to Black people and maybe Latinos to a lesser degree. Reaching out slowly to hand in your license because the officer thinks you have a gun or them getting the wrong man by not following the 911 dispatch description correctly of the suspect.

For the rest, it's just A. For Black people, it's usually a mix of A and B.

6) Actually, the movement does address this. The "school to prison pipeline" is usually a term used to address Black teens being arrested in school for things that others would usually get a detention for. The overpunishment of Black students is address as well.

[Datboi65]

7) The issue of sexual abuse is addressed as well. When it comes to solving it, I would always say prevention is better than a cure. A perfect family unit with both parents in the home can teach young men how to behave, and young women will have a source of protection in a father.

As for the issue of single motherhood, my perspective is that this is due to a number of reasons:

a) Second wave feminism
b) Welfare
c) Lack of accountability

There's no other way around it, since 55% of Black men are actually single and childless, and 32% have married, which means 13% if Black men are responsible for 75% of the kids being born in the community (out-of-wedlock).

I don't understand your point with regards to vigilante justice, so I want you to elaborate on that further. I personally am opposed to the idea of vigilantes, because you cannot and you should not take the law into your own hands.

[jshm2]

They laugh at your pretentiousness and idealism.

Wind your neck in, dimwit.

[WilliamPamer446]

Nah you I know a lot of these ideas may not work but its still worth a try.

[Wester1967]

I support Huey Newton and Che Guevara. Total armed brutality. Eye for an eye. Like Malcolm X says, they put a hand on you, take them off the planet.

[MJtheCoach]

BLM’s just like lGBQ and feminism don’t have their own thought process.

[WilliamPamer446]

The Commie Elites give them all there ideas and they just blindly follow and call themselves "open minded and free from republican authoritarianism and fascism" "look at me im so smart" and then the elites brainwash them into thinking any one who opposes them is the real Elitist

[MJtheCoach]

Yah that’s it! That’s why they all lined for the C0ViD 💉💉💉

[WilliamPamer446]

The elites use mental illness like Gender Dysphoria and casual sex, silly controversial things that we could deal with a healthier way for a better society but instead they want us to divide and fight about this stupid shit.

Certain social justice things, like autistic people being respected and understood more and helping to improve the black community conditions and understanding there community more and helping women who are abused, those social justice things make sense and are good for society. But the other things aren't.

[Anonymous]

BLM doesn't want solutions. BLM makes money peddling victimization, and if the problem is solved, they become irrelevant.

[OddBeMe]

It’s always dicey to criticize a movement that’s under constant attack from the right wing.

[f_ckjoebiden]

Once again, the dude who will scrape fetus with a rusty coat hanger.

[Anonymous]

These people are fucking stupid and incapable of rational thought

[bean2k21]

people are just resistant to change