I want to have a more diverse group of friends, specifically going more away from the group of men that I’ve predominantly been around for a big portion of my life. Men who aren’t in the fields that I’m into and perhaps men who some may consider to be more “feminine” in many respects.
When you are in perhaps the most masculine, testosterone-filled, and alpha group of men in already a predominantly male environment you get a unique insight into the above topic.
Also, when you have done things that attract primarily men and primarily certain types of men you also get a unique insight into the above topic of “toxic masculinity” that many do not have.
The men that I’ve been around like to:
•compete amongst each other in a variety of ways & become obnoxious about it
•say some rather vulgar and obscene things about women & their experiences with them
•criticize one another for being more feminine
Personally, I think it’s mentally draining and tiring.
Of course there’s good in all of my experiences.
•Perhaps there’s no other group of men in all of the world or history that is more brave, honorable, and tough.
•Lots of injustice, evil, and suffering has been prevented and thwarted by these same men.
This topic can be seen as somewhat of a double-edged sword.
What’s your experience, if you have any, with men’s toxic masculinity? How bad has it been?
"Toxic masculinity" is simply a new label for an old phenomenon. Men - primarily those who are somewhat insecure about their masculinity - have a strong need to prove their manliness by talking trash about women, talking nonstop about how mch they love humongous boobs, competing with other guys to prove how macho they are, and never taking a break from this endless need to prove how much of a male they are.
A confident man does not need to prove his masculinity to anyone. In my life, I have engaged in some pursuits that are more traditionally thought of as feminine. I cook and I bake. I have a cat that I love. I know how to sew a button on my shirt. I keep my house clean and orderly. I attend symphony concerts.
I also do electrical, plumbing, and painting work around my house. I do my automobile maintenance. I follow college football very closely. I do woodworking as a hobby. I love hiking in the woods.
If anyone questions my masculinity, I don't get into arguments on that subject. I simply respond that real men know they are masculine and don't care what anyone else thinks. End of discussion.
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I think masculinity has always been somewhat of a double-edged sword.
The same types of men who fight and win wars, demonstrate and perform great feats of bravery, etc.
I've had a few experiences with toxic behaviors, although I'm not sure masculinity has anything to do with it. Frankly I really couldn't care less whether they're men or women. In my Guard unit I've experienced both extremes when it comes to command climate; when I first got there it was the poster child for toxic command climate, but changes in leadership made drastic improvements.
If you want to look at something I would call "toxic masculinity," take a look at the "MGTOW" and some "incel" posts on GAG. They're bitter, mad at the world, and women are the reason. They may have had some experience that makes their attitude somewhat justifiable, but toxic people need allies. They want people to rally around them and support their misery. For some bizarre reason they consider the behavior of one or a few women representative of all women ("all women are like this"). Not only that, they spew contempt for men who don't think like them, don't act like them, and don't support their thinking ("if you're not for me, you're against me") and any man that shows chivalrous or even just kind behavior to another human being, especially a woman, is a "simp." They'd rather fix the blame than the problem, and they're so caught up in the blame game that it seems they're oddly more content being miserable and spewing contempt. If they do have a fix, it's often a drastic one.
Considering the type of unit you're in, I think a lot of it comes from the old Abilene Paradox - just plain old group think, saying and becoming what it takes to fit in. But then again, I'm one who disregards the behavior and looks for the positive in people.
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The MGTOW & incel stuff doesn’t seem like what I would think of as “toxic masculinity,” rather just self-destructive/nihilistic/ hopeless thinking.
Masculinity has always been somewhat of what I call a “double-edged” sword.
The same types of things that make men rape, kill, and fight in immoral, malicious, and dishonorable reasons are the same types of things that allow men to also kill, fight, and commit violence in honorable, righteous, and honorable ways.
Imagine a coin, obviously having two sides. Both of these sides are part of the coin.
Masculinity is the coin.
One side is the “bad” stuff
The other is the “good” stuff.
It’s all masculinity though. I don’t think masculinity is either good or bad, it’s just a word to describe what makes men, MEN.
For a very long time, men raped all throughout wars, whether during or after.
I don’t think this was an uncommon thing for men of all cultures, armies, traditions, etc.
It was just a primarily “masculine” thing. In other words, it pertained to the constitution of very masculine men doing masculine or traditionally masculine things such as fighting wars.
The bravery & rage to slay the enemy has the same ingredients
As the want to rape women.
The difference is the conditioning of what is wrong in society and what is right. This is of course where you find yourself in.
In many parts of the world, sexual trafficking is normalized, tribal killings normalized, rape/forced sex is normalized, etc.
I really wish people would stop conflating “Incels” and “mgtow”.
Incels by definition are “Involuntary Celibates”. They blame women for ignoring them and have trouble accepting their own shortcomings.
Mgtow has nothing to do with sex, misogyny, or “toxic masculinity”. It has to do with men realizing how they are exploited by the system and the focus is on men supporting men to better themselves and avoiding state sanctioned marriages.
There can’t be any type of conversation without being demonized and slandered by the media. So the solution is to simply stop playing the game until the courts treat men and women equally under the law.
The men who may come across as angry are usually the ones that have been through the divorce court grinder and are likely bitter. But many are just guys who have realized the deck is stacked against them.
What do I understand by toxic masculinity (or femininity): It's when a masculine (or feminine) trait that's usually positive or neutral is either corrupted or too extreme and becomes negative. So for example aggression that's generally neutral but much needed by men to protect their families becomes a force used against them.
Two notable examples of toxic masculinity that I personally came across are indeed aggression used against me, a person who 1) didn't provoke it by any other means than simply disagreeing with his opinions and 2) is no physical threat to him.
Another notable example is pride, a trait I personally hate but most common in men. In this case it prevented him (a different person) from ever admitting a mistake or even that I could tell him something he didn't already know... only to hear my own words from his mouth months later as if he came up with it by himself.
I'm not saying women couldn't have those traits but simply stating that they are typically masculine and when masculinity becomes toxic.
I’ve experienced men who you’d consider to be more traditionally masculine attempt to use my hospitality to their full advantage while trying to get away with ignoring my needs. Total god complex, everything his way, to his advantage, he has to benefit and I have to enjoy pleasing him. I've worked for men like this and one was eventually hauled off to jail for sexual harassment. He was a real piece of 💩
I never got serious with a guy like this but some have tried to pursue me because they mistakenly took my introverted and serene nature as a pushover. Heh weren’t they wrong. 😂
Toxic masculinity is not a thing. Vulgarity is vulgarity, not exclusive to one gender. Women rigorously compete for men and job positions. Toxicity is toxicity, period. Men out the beta males going back to the neolithic sea, hell well before that. Dogs, apes, big cats, etc all have males that compete with each other. You can't "breed it out" of men. We are a conflict seeking, warlike species like our close chimp relatives. Honestly my balls hurt for guys when they make complaints about toxic masculinity, kiss up to feminists, or act like girly femboys. I can't respect them. I'm fortunate enough to be raised mostly by WW2 vets who knew real hardships and didn't complain nonsensical, inconsiqiential things like "toxic masculinity". The only thing you can contribute to being "toxic masculinity" is shit from like Sharia law and whatnot. In the West it's honestly none existent except among true betas like Elliot Rodger types and your typical rapists. But that's because they lack manhood rather than have an actual set of balls to get a woman
I’ve had experience personally and think this might be a good example for sure. I got to a bodybuilding gym where it’s predominantly men.. you can see where this is heading already. Now I have a lot of guy friends there and as transparent and open they are about mental health etc which is great they’re also the most insecure guys I’ve ever met.
Whenever we hang out either in the gym or outside it’s always ‘I look so small, the other guys have way bigger biceps/lats than me’ etc etc or something along those lines (keep in mind the guys here are huge are many compete professionally in bodybuilding) sure there’s the body dysmorphia of the sport itself but it’s the younger and newer guys I really feel bad for. Some of them are as young as 16.
Now if they come to this gym not wanting to be a pro or wanting to get girls, be ‘fit for themselves’ and all imagine the example the older, more experienced guys will be setting just to be alpha.
There was unfair differences and "boys will be boys" comments when I was younger, but now my main issue with it is how growing up with behavior like that encouraged, has affected my partner and though he is working on it, it's a really hard barrier to break down.
Took me months to convince him that he didn't have to just live with having bad skin on the back of his arms and legs, it's not unmanly to exfoliate and moisturise. We're working on the washing of the face now.
Learning that its okay to be upset and you can just be upset without being angry. Not excusing shitty behaviour with "I'm a guy it's normal". Doing chores. We pay equal share in the house, we work roughly the same hours, we should equally share the chores. Breaking down weaponized incompetence.
Nothing wrong with being sick and needing to see a Dr. You don't have to man up and cope with it. You are allowed to take a mental health day, you're allowed to be stressed, you're allowed to say no if you're at your limit of work.
Been working on a lot of these things with my partner. It's hard but in the end it will be worth it.
Ah, Toxic Masculinity, the biggest con job perpetrated by Feminists over the last 5 years aided and abetted by Academia in US Colleges & Universities, the MSM and the Political Left, while playing down Toxic Femininity (it exists no matter what the current crop of feminists would have you believe) which is usually more destructive to families, relationships, and society.
You say that the men you have been around are/do; •compete amongst each other in a variety of ways & become obnoxious about it •say some rather vulgar and obscene things about women & their experiences with them •criticize one another for being more feminine
It is more than likely that this is more noticeable because spaces that once were exclusively for men have now gone by the way side due to pressure from the lobbies in the first paragraph, and while the term ‘fuck you’ can be derogatory, it can in the right situation and intonation be the highest form of respect.
If masculinity is so toxic why is it that they in the majority (criminals excluded obviously) obey the law of the land even as it disenfranchises them, and cuts them off from their children?
If masculinity was so toxic why is society still standing and not a burned out ruin?
It sounds as though you have been caught in the feminist mentality, what you do from here is up to you.
TONIC MASCULINITY Building A Better World Since 10,000 BC
That's why it's just masculinity. Toxic masculinity isn't masculinity. It is fake masculinity masking as masculinity. It's not toxic for a man to naturally be masculine. It becomes toxic when you fake it
Yes. That's what i am saying. Men have a natural masculinity. That's not toxic It becomes toxic when society creates these fake rules that define a man. And when a man pretends to be these traits it's usually very toxic because they fear they don't measure up to what society deems a man.
But men have different ways to be masculine. Not all masculinity looks the same. But that's not what men are taught. So that's how it becomes toxic because of the damage done to a male mentally who doesn't fit society's version of masculinity
I know guys who think that woman are created to serve man and it’s annoying, one guy would complain about my weight 15 years ago while telling me every day he would date me if I exercised, and he discussed my lack of sexual history with his best friend so that his best friend pretended to be my friend to date me, a disgusting pig. I did not like him at all. He was stupid and lazy and rude, but he was 100% sure he had a chance with me because he had a cute face and a nice car, and was good at creating art and writing music.
I had one man following me a while, a lot of men was quite persistent to get my number, I learnt to not fight too much as when they get it, they will go away. most of them never called, also, I don't pick up unknown numbers, just block them. Some catcalling but that's it. And I don't even call this toxic (apart from the man who followed me) It's just men, they have to be persistent. Maybe I am lucky but 99.8% of the men I meet are nice, respectful and even kind. They help me out with my luggage, if you know the London underground, it's stairs only almost, they let me get on the crowded train first. They let me have the last seat. Whenever I need something at work, they help me out. Men are just great with me. And no, I'm not hot, barely average, but I show gratitude, I compliment them, I thank them for doing things for me. Maybe that's why, I don't know.
I read few comments and yeah, I agree. There is masculinity and there's toxic behaviour but I am not sure it really comes down men being men, it's more about upbringing, intelligence, religion, personality disorders.
Honestly I would have to research that topic waaay more, but I stayed away from people who fit the definition of toxic masculinity. I don't have much experience with them.
Thankfully my two uncles and one cousin that I grew up with, where what I consider a real man. They are family oriented, emotional, helping, caring, can be rough if needed and stand their ground and well honest man. And that's kinda pretty much what I'm always looking for and I don't waste time on the stupid "alpha betha" shit or the faking to be a "man" idiots.
I do not know have any first hand experience with toxic masculinity. But I have had some pretty bad life experiences with toxic femininity.
Basically the women used toxic femininity to rob, cheat and steal from me and felt justified in doing it all because anything I said and did was toxic to her. But honestly she had such high levels of insecurity that she was incapable of loving herself, which means she could never truly love anyone else, and she just took it out on anyone that ever got close to her.
The only part of that I have a problem with is guys who speak disrespectfully about women and say fucked up shit. But I don't see that as a masculinity thing or as an exclusively male thing. It's more of an asshole thing. A lot of people speak badly about the opposite sex, women about men too.
The rest I don't believe is even toxic. The problem women and effeminate men have with what they call toxic masculinity is pressure, but it's the pressure (the competition between men, the shaming of effeminacy) that drives men to do great things.
Masculinity has always been about men proving their masculinity to other men, showing strength, courage and competence. The men you speak of wouldn't have done those things if they didn't compete with each other or if they thought more like women
My worst experiences with toxic masculinity have almost always been in jobs that were predominantly male. They do everything like you noted, and I usually can't fully mix with them because I'm a different type of guy. I'm not into cars, sports, gaming, or anime so a lot of times they try to talk over you in a group. And because you're different they basically look at you like "Ah he doesn't know anything. He's not a cool guy so we don't want him in our group."
I also don't like how everything has to be a one-up with groups of guys, and how we always have to make jokes about each other. Some people call this "male bonding," I just call it ignorance.
So yes, for me being in groups of all guys is usually more toxic than positive in my opinion. But I've had toxic experiences with groups of all women as well.
I don’t like how some men will throw other guys under the bus to impress women. Sadly lots of young women fall for this crap too. For example there is a socially awkward guy in the crowd and the girl makes a comment about him being “creepy”. The other knows this guy is harmless but instead agrees with her to make himself look good.
But as for the bs woke phrase “toxic masculinity” I have the following three major problems with it:
1. Women are often secretly attracted to these type of guys despite saying otherwise.
2. Up until recently there has been little mention of toxic femininity. Women exhibit their own shitty toxic behaviors which is something feminists rarely if ever acknowledge.
3. Testosterone and aggression is a good thing if channeled properly. Feminizing men has been horrible for our society. It’s making both men and women miserable.
In all honesty, I have been "burned" more by "toxic" masculine females far more than I have been by males. In fact, this dynamic is a growing problem that is destroying relationships every single day! I won't apologize either! I call out bullshit when I see it! I'm not talking about confident ladies, gals that have all their shit in one sock! I'm talking about females that have to put men and in some cases other females through pure hell just so they can be some kind of modern woman! Folks I'm not MGTOW and I don't take colored pills! I'm just tired of all the sexist bullshit!
People call the bad behaviors that are stereotypically done by men as "toxic masculinity". They can be done by both men and women, more by men, but to call it specifically masculinity is up for debate.
Some will say masculinity doesn't include bad behavior. Others that the same aggression that defenses is the same one that assaults.
My take on it... Some people are shit. Call it whatever you want it doesn't matter. People are shit. They bully, they hurt, they don't listen to others and are very close minded.
Others are good that defend, protect, teach, support and respect.
NEVER THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON. Don't thinking for a second the person that is bullying you in one moment will do an altruistic act in the next. Doesn't happen.
So we ether have shitty people or bad people. We don't have people whose masculinity sometimes protects and others hurts.
-What is wrong with competition? Without it, there is no incentive to be the best you can be.
- What do you think the solution is? Controlling what people can and can't say? Any sort of answer you might have to solve something like that will create more problems.
- that criticism exists for a reason. It's not for the men's sake, it's to prevent turmoil in relationships. Women will say that they like it when men do that, and that may very well be true, but it's not sexy. If a man shows his belly to his partner one too many times, the attraction will be lost completely and the relationship is doomed.
Toxic masculinity itself doesn't exist rather it's toxic individuals who have had name assigned to them for propoganda
And I say it doesn't exist because women have groups who are equally Terrible inside (they just go about things differently and don't have the same imposing nature)
In highschool i seen quite a few of them now that I'm an adult they have taken a new form I don't fully understand but deception is definitely a key trait
I don't know if this counts but I have been in several fights with the gym bro's and jock types over years. Though I don't consider it toxic masculinity. Just muscle heads that don't know when to leave someone alone. Also it can be funny as hell when they realize that the person they are piking on is a trained fighter.
I don't take the term/idea "toxic masculinity" seriously. That's just a feminist buzzword invented so they can pussify and oppress young men of the Millennial/Zoomer generation into being weak, effeminate, and useless.
