If you assume that a being is a human being from the moment of conception, then yes, it logically must be murder. Which indeed is why the courts and the law have tied themselves up in knots since Roe v. Wade trying to avoid defining when life begins.
Hence why, at first, abortion was banned after the third trimester. Then the limit was refined to viability. Then, as viability has regressed to earlier and earlier stages of gestation, the limit has regressed to earlier and earlier in time. (Recall that Roe v. Wade was overturned on a legal/constitutional point, not on a question of when life begins.)
It is also why, now, some states have begun to use the "heartbeat standard" as the point after which abortion is not legal. All human beings have a heart. If the law can be compelled to recognize a heartbeat as definitive of a human being - the point being that most women will not know they are pregnant till after the point in time when a heartbeat is detectable - then abortion will be effectively banned.
What the courts do not want to codify is the idea that the life of a human being can be taken - sanctioned by law - absent cause. A child being guilty of no crime save the fact of its conception, which itself it did not cause.
Suffice to say, embody that idea in law and the consequences would be profound - and very bad. So the courts are turning intellectual handstands to set a standard while avoiding the central question of when a fetus is a person.
Indeed, the pro-choice argument is rooted in an intellectual conundrum. If the fetus is not a human person from the moment of conception, at what point - EXACTLY - does it become human? What, scientifically, legally, and morally, is the difference between the child one second before that EXACT moment, and one second after it? What are the implications if the law defines a date and then it turns out - after further scientific analysis - that it got it wrong?
The courts are using an evasion. The fetus - from the moment of conception - cannot be anything other than a human person. It will not be a duck or a horse. Logically, a thing cannot be other than what it is at any stage of its development. Because if it can be, then scientifically the fetus has an equal potential to become an elephant as a baby.
So the courts have fallen back on a semantic difference. We call a fetus a fetus, a baby a baby and a boy a boy and a man a man - even though, at every point in that continuum it is the same thing. An individual human person. The fact that we give different names to the same being at different points in time does not change the essential nature of the being. It is what it is and cannot be anything else at any point in that continuum.
This then being why the point at which abortion is permitted is, slowly but surely, falling back earlier in time. Again, it having started at the first trimester and having since, in law, been refined as "viability," as the courts have periodically rewritten the standard.
Long way around, yes, logically and philosophically, abortion is murder by virtue of it being the taking of the life of a human being who is not guilty of any crime at the will of another being. The law has only avoided stating that fact by relying on a semantic fiat - and a shifting point in time - that bears neither scientific, nor logical nor moral scrutiny.
No, and I'm so sick of stupid people thinking it is otherwise. If you aren't even born yet, how can you be "murdered"? You're not even a fully born human being yet.
I mean, I can SEE how people would think that if they're talking about 7 or 8 month olds in the womb. But no; usually these idiotic comments refer to 6 week embryos being terminated as "murder," but not the sperm they waste f*cking random women every other week. Somehow, condoms aren't "abortion" but terminating an embryo less than two months old is?
PLEASE don't get me started on the sheer idiocy of pro-life arguments again and why "abortion is wrong." I get enough stupidity from the radical left, as it is. I don't need the political right doing the "feelings over facts" BS again after GAG was obsessed with this crap back in June.
There is nothing anywhere that fully agrees that " [human] life starts at the moment of conception" other than the moral-fagging from pro-lifers. And I'm sick of people using emotional strawmen as "science." A baby isn't a baby until the end of the second trimester, at dead minimum. It's an embryo, or fetus, until then. Thus, undeveloped. Not fully formed. Not "a human life" as idiots like to moral-fag on.
As I said the other day, until people can start putting their money where their mouth is, supporting single mothers (not even financially; just not mocking them) AFTER they give birth, and are actually NOT HAVING SEX until marriage, with the intent of reproducing, you cannot call yourself "pro-life."
I f*cking HATE hypocrisy, and for as much hypocrisy as the left does, the right doesn't get anymore hypocritical than trying to force government tyranny on women already unfit to be mothers, then going "not my problem; take care of your own bastards" AFTER the child is born. You can dislike abortion all you want, but no one gives a flying sh*t what your INTERNET OPINIONS are on it, when it's THEIR life that's going to be permanently affected and/or ruined by forcing childhood onto them.
These same f*cking tyrannical pro-life morons want to force parenthood on people, and then expect them to NOT neglect, and/or kill their children POST birth... Real great logic there, idiot. And then, assuming they DO actually become parents merely because of government force and not because they're actually ready to raise children, you then assume the kids won't be psychologically f*cked up, from being forced to be raised by someone who didn't want them... Which is probably exactly what my OWN mother did.
So yeah, before any assholes out there try to say "Well, you weren't aborted," shut the f*ck up, because on some days, I legit wish I were. Too late for that, though! You have no idea how many skeletons I have in my closet for you (any pro-lifer out there) to moral-fag about "not killing dem babies" while you laugh at single mothers for being "whores and sluts" that are "only good for f*ckin'." I'm not into single mothers either, but I also don't try to force parenthood on them when they aren't mother material.
Yeah, I'm being really impolite here, but as I aid before on GAG, nothing annoys me more than stupidity. Especially stupidity mixed with self-righteousness. Which is why I hate feminism and woke culture so much. Yet when it comes to abortion, the conservative right can be just as braindead, morally self-righteous, "feelings over facts," and idiotic on the issue.
I am NOT against people PERSONALLY being "pro-life." What I am against, are assholes trying to oppress people using the government, merely because their fee-fees got hurt or they're "offended" by something. Which again, is what the radical left usually does. Except for when abortion is involved, and the right wants to force people's lives to be ruined, and/or force them to commit infanticide (that is, killing an actual newborn baby, not "abortion") and then act like they had no part in that. This not even getting into the 48 hour intense pain of child labor.
Again, stay the f*ck out of other people's business if you aren't doing anything to help children POST BIRTH. Cause no one gives a f*ck if you're against abortion or not until you start trying to ruin their own lives.
My mom always taught me to mind my own business. Just because I wouldn’t get an abortion doesn’t mean I have a right to judge another woman who would/has.
I agree with Dr. Deaths methods. That too is considered murder. But is it wrong even if the people were begging him to put them out of their misery? I don’t think so. And you wouldn’t either if you ever saw the amount of suffering people go through in their last days.
I say let people do what they want, when they want with their bodies. If you want to get an abortion, get it. Is it murder? It’s ending life so the definition suggests that it is. Is it wrong? That’s none of my fuckin business.
Abortion isn’t so great but it’s a choice. Pregnancy and birth is hard, some women die from giving birth although it’s not too common. If you ask me, women should be responsible for their actions (unless they were raped). Why would you have sex without contraceptives but then when you get pregnant you kill your unborn child? That’s horrible. Women should prevent pregnancy if they aren’t going to care for the baby to began with. Imagine if your mother got an abortion and you were the unborn baby. You didn’t even get a chance to see or experienced the world because of your selfish, irresponsible mother.
Alright, I'm pro-abortion. You got raped, have medical issues, or some time to end a bad choice... if you're on the right you're probably getting my point on this much so far. The left though wanting abortion even if the kid is already born is a bit too far. Like, wtf... if you don't want kids then just don't fuck. You don't wait 9 months and then just decide to kill it.
The left won the argument with the whole "safe, legal, and rare" argument. They kept going with this after birth abortion stuff and what happened happened, I probably don't have to explain it. Remember I'm pro-abortion! I say kill those fucking babies, but god damn... what was wrong with the safe, legal and rare. An industry was getting built of abortions and they just wanted to expand that shit for money.
I probably pissed off the left and the right with this rant... fuck all of you. Stupid sluts protesting in states where their abortion rights probably just got liberated and others trying to gloat as if it was some big win for them in states where most of the women wasn't even getting abortions to begin with.
Even I'm sorry for this rant... it just pisses me off that this place with a bunch of states is expected to follow unilateral rules and when a rule gets kicked back down to the states to just decide for themselves what's legal or not, and...
of course it's murder, duh, especially after a given brief time. why do we even have to argue that... to make people feel better about what they are doing? Deal with reality...
But the woman has domain over that life, not the state. Neither you or I are involved. If she isn't going to care for that life, nurture them in every way required... for decades and if she isn't going to give that life a chance with another parent, then that life has no chance. That is the sad reality.
Forcing her to do something we view as good when she may have bad emotions, it might work. But strikes me as it often backfires. We should provide various forms of guidance, support and help. But I view it as something she decides and commits to.. ideally before messing with any male.
There should not be profit in this "business" of murder. It's a special case and Id remove profit motive.
Ideally, we'd transition this issue into the domain of how to care for these people better and limit these muders... killings... whatever lawyers want to call it.
Yes, it's stopping the pregnancy buy ripping the kid out the womb. It's terminating a pregnancy and the only way to do that is by killing the baby, people know this but keep playing mental gymnastics about it. If it wasn't killing the baby, then women wouldn't be so adamant about keeping abortions around or wanting to get the pills that stop the pregnancy.
Most life starts in the womb, how else are humans or any living species is going to be born in the world If we automatically claim it as not living life force. Nothing pops into existence, everything takes time to build and process. Babies are like building a house, day 1 you need the foundation and the blue print. You need all the materials then you can start building and eventually it will be completed.
I have mixed thoughts about abortions. On one side i do think it is murder. On the other side as per law a life starts with the moment of birth (at least in germany). I think abortion should be legal for the first few weeks like in germany (if i remember corectly here it is allowed in the first 6weeks or so). I also think there should be a mandatory apointment with a doctor where all risks and benefits are discussed. This should not try to confince someone to do or not to do an abortion. It should only give the facts and cover everything
Do you think dogs are smart? How pigs? Pigs have shown the capacity to have the vocabulary and mental development of an average 3 year old human child.
We gas stray dogs all the time, because it's convenient not to have wild dogs all over...
What about pigs? Pork is delicious, isn't it? Is it amoral to eat pork?
How about Dolphin? Plenty of cultures have no problem with the killing and eating of dolphins.
Where is the line? A fetus isn't even a fully formed being, it has less intelligence or self awareness than a bait minnow.
But somehow people get all stupid about abortion. It's more like popping a pimple than "murder" as far as I'm concerned.
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Anonymous
(30-35)
1 y
I think it is good that we have fewer low-IQ people reproducing. I think abortion is suitable for them. In a society, there will always be more winners than losers. And it really sucks to be a loser with a low IQ.
Most women understand that it is like a death sentence for men. So they abort their male babies. This is good because most of them would have ended up in jail or died of a drug overdose. Life would have been very cruel to them.
The only people that want to ban it are people that want them alive so they can use them for votes or to shame them. People enjoy watching others suffer because it makes them feel better about themselves. Just like euthanasia should be legalized for anyone who does not wants it, the same should be for abortion.
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Anonymous
(36-45)
1 y
Asking those questions demonstrates that you do not understand the subject at all.
Abortions have been happening since forever and there is literally nothing you can do which will change that, nothing.
So your options are:
A: Legal and safe abortions on demand.
OR
B: An orwellian nightmare where women are imprisioned and forced to carry and give birth against their will and all of the other horrors that follow that.
If you chose option B you are not a moral agent.
The long and the short of it is that abortion is a necessary evil and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if it is murder or not, call it whatever you like, it will not alter the fact that safe and legal abortions minimise human suffering.
There are quite simply no valid arguments supporting the position that abortion should be illegal.
No one is doing this for fun and it is also absolutely none of your business.
Here's my thoughts: "discussing" this is pretty much a waste of time. I've heard all the arguments from all the viewpoints as to "when life begins". People pick the one they want, and that's the end of the discussion. Everything after that is emotions, but I'll give a snippet of my views.
If the question becomes the life of a 12 embryo OR the life of the mother (due to medical complications), why is it any LESS of a murder to FORCE the mother to go to term, knowing she'll die in the process?
Republicans do NOT represent the "people" on this, as every poll shows. They also vote against most ANY necessary help for raising kids born to poor women and poor families, because that's "welfare". These old male ass wipes in Congress need to stay out of women's vaginas and let doctors, and the person, make an informed choice. Ultimately, this is between those involved and their maker.
A life is pronounced dead when the heart stops. Does that mean it should be pronounced alive when it starts?
But there are other factors that can be involved. Severe medical issues can surface. Changing quality of potential life. In that case it’s more mercy, not murder.
wellllllll I’m not quite sure how to feel about you calling an unborn child “it” and men shouldn’t have to pay child support for a kid he didn’t want? I mean, shouldn’t he take responsibility after bedding a girl and getting her knocked up?
I don’t view it as murder. I view it as not my pregnancy not my business. Someone’s decision to terminate or continue with a pregnancy is none of my business and their decision has no bearing on my life. I also look at the state of foster care and adoption on top of all the other unwanted kids and how people hardly give a fuck about them but when someone decides to make their own decision people get up in arms about it.
I do consider the baby to be alive all throughout pregnancy from the moment of conception when it creates a zygote. I still think abortion should be legal well into the fourth trimester, the 12 weeks after birth, for whatever reason the woman decides.
@Surely it's not a test drive to the parents who are going through difficult times. It's not a test drive to the waitress with an abusive husband or to the mom who works 60-80 hours a week with little to no support. Many parents simply cannot handle an additional child.
@letuswaltzforthedead. Then why wait so long to dispose of what you conceived? Or is it cheaper to kill a child after it is birthed then before? They call that child abuse or neglect!!! How would you go about a forth semester abo
@Surely some women don't have proper abortion clinics nearby or readily available, especially now with so many states taking away their rights. There's many reasons why women aren't able to have an abortion but it's better to have one than to be born with a mom who does want you sometimes. Do you really want women to have alleyway abortions?
@Surely because again, some women won't be able to. Likely, with every passing trimester the chances for abortion diminish so it would probably extremely rarely happen past a fourth trimester and by that point, most people would consider it murder.
@letuswaltzforthedead. You do realize that there are only three trimesters in a normal pregnancy? After the forth trimester. The baby is three months old! So yes. I think that would be child abuse or murder in today’s society!
@Surely you do realize after birth abortions exist, right? Sometimes doctors won't harm the fetus and just leave it outside before disposing of it. Whats the difference between culling it few minutes before than doing so after the fact? In either case, it lacks personhood and cannot exist on it's own. Not allowing those kinds of medical procedures won't help anybody, especially the mother who is likely under emootional and physical distress already.
@letuswaltzforthedead. Last question. At what age were you able to exist on your own? In your opinion. Abortions should be legal to whatever age you can exist on your own! Sure would cut the population in a hurry!
@Surely@Surely I think a year (the pregnancy + the three extra) would give women enough time to decide if they want to keep the child or not without any additional trauma. Plus, three months is the minimum I've seen women breastfeed and it also covers paid maternity leave in the US (I dont know how long it is for most other countries and it's a different topic). Don't worry I'm not a genocidal maniac, quite the opposite but I think abortions is a right many women are lacking.
My opinion is that those holding the most strident and uncompromising positions to this question are the ones who scream the loudest, the longest.
That means that the views of the more moderate majority are always drowned out, particularly in the confrontational adversarial cultures of the UK and the USA.
What I think doesn't matter, because the extremists are the ones who are controlling the political process.
You state as a fact that "life starts at the moment of conception", yet that definition is not even accepted by half of the population. When human life starts has been debated for centuries, and there is still no definitive agreement on it.
As the sign in the picture says, "Abortion is not an easy choice", and making the choice depends on several things, including when a person believes that human life starts.
A fetus has the potential for life but its not alive. Until it can survive independently of the mother it is part of her and part of her body like any other organ. We don't shame someone for an appendectomy or any other medical procedure. Even the Bible is clear that it isn't murder. But yet so many people seem to think it is.
Abortion is murder if it’s done after the living soul has a consciousness. If it’s done after a brain and a heart have been formed, it’s murder.
In the case of rape, the woman must take the pill ASAP.
If the family is poor, if there’s enough support for one, there’s enough support for two, or I’ve read it in a hadīth. The government should take care for the needy and not tax a big sum for animal testing or meat or military for offence.
