Why do people actually think it’s man hating and unfeminine for a woman to make her own money and choose not to have children?

[Audiofox]

I’m seeing this opinion more and more recently and it’s so utterly toxic. Do men really want women entirely dependant on them for their well-being? To have no means of their own to contribute to a household or to escape it if it becomes abusive or save for their own retirements, needs or wants?

Having children can irreversibly effect a woman’s body or cause life long health problems. It’s also not financially feasible for the majority of us which is why I chose against it, especially in the economy’s current state. I also just prefer the freedom being child free entails without having to worry about planning around them or finding care for them, not to mention I require quiet time to sit and read which kids can’t give you and wouldn’t women who actually want kids be better at that anyway? Why is the assumption that women must necessarily all have children and if we don’t we’re somehow morally wrong as people?

Why can’t femininity and autonomy exist together?

Considering certain very vocal men on GaG seem to think women are all gold diggers why would you also expect us to be dependant on someone who can’t make enough to maintain a household if we have to be dependant on them at all? That doesn’t even make sense.

Society is mad at women for aging yet we’re required to have children and mad at us for being independent despite the fact that independence gives us freedom to marry who we love instead of who has the most resources.

None of this makes any logical sense.

[Nik1hil]

Feminine means " Consuming a men's resources to generate things that men cannot do, make kids raise family" ..

Masculine means " Generating the resources and protecting everything that the female builds , Sacrificing ourselves along the way".

If women start Generating resources then what use are we men, and if they are busy generating resources who's raising the next generation.

Oh Yeah!.. Women became so Gullible they left such a prime Job, to work like a drone, and abandoned the kids they had to study in school. And schools messing kids up, in worst possible ways!..

Academic school helps in education it's parents responsibility to teach their kids!..

Paying for school automatically doesn't means your kid will learn!..

I hate how "Satan" whispered into "EVE'S" Ear because she was Gullible , Get the apple of "femininity and autonomy can exist together." And she went Bonkers and has now Put the Adam in a position where society has turned into a mess...

[Audiofox]

A “prime” job that doesn’t pay. Lol. If I have to depend on a man I don’t get too much say over the resources and if he’s abusive, leaving becomes much more difficult. Precluding women from making their own money is entrapment.

[Nik1hil]

Prime job pays! In ways more than money,

come to east and see housewife women, these women get their husbands whole salary in their hands, and then give back their husband the amount he can spend that month.

Because these women are properly raising their kids, the kids stand against the men if he becomes abusive in any way.

Also because these women properly married as housewife and has support of their father, mother and brother, she came to his family as his wife so she has support of her husbands father, his mother, his brothers and sisters.

You really think a man would abuse you, when you have support of 10 Important people that care the most about your kids, as long as women properly are raising kids these 10 People will always support her...

From husbands side,
1) Husbands father.
2) Husbands mother.
3) Husbands brother.
4) Husbands sister.
5) Husbands friends.

wife side.
1) wifes father.
2) wifes mother.
3) wifes brother.
4) wifes sister.
5) wifes friends.

They will always support because they knows, any negative impact on the women directly will lead to broken and damaged children and everyone wants to protect their kids...

BUT the moment women says, I do not want to raise kids, because that job does not pays, she looses the support from these 10 people, out of which 5 people who are basically controlling her husband are gone, and they lose control over their husband.

As long as you are raising his kids, you get support of 10 most important people in his life. HE BECOMES DEPENDENT ON YOU. He cannot be abusive, he hits you once, tell all 10 people that he his you, and kids are going to get hurt if they do not set your men straight. He hits you once, and he is going to get kicked 10 times from 10 different places.

And if his mama hit him, he cannot even hit back, plus loosing respect of 10 important people is horrible, men value respect a lot.

Girl you can make him your bitch!

Also a very less percentage to men are abusive.

[Nik1hil]

I am not saying that you should not be in control. A women should be in control, men are monkeys. If women were not there we would still be hanging on trees.

But making money by doing a stressful job that female body is not naturally designed to endure is NOT THE WAY.

Giving up kids to be just be educated by school, and not raising them to be gentle and strong, not talking to kids every few hours, leads to raising of generation of women with less confidence and men who are abusive by nature, because as kids they were not taught to regulate their emotions by their mother and they were not taught discipline by their father. THIS IS NOT THE WAY.

[Nik1hil]

Your goal to be in control and find happiness is right, but the way you are choosing to achieve is wrong. THAT IS NOT THE WAY.

[Audiofox]

I work in nursing, my friend. Was there ever a more feminine job other than motherhood itself? I do like caring for others, especially the old and sick, but not children. Children are too high energy for me, personally. Like I said, I need quiet time to sit and read. Without it I become anxious and grumpy and snappy. Kids don’t allow any down time for such a peaceful endeavour.

[Nik1hil]

You work in nursing, you aren't just a nurse. You are not doing just a feminine job.
You are doing work of a gods.
*I Bow to you*
Nurses deserve better, Nursing is a job that is actually on the same level as motherhood, in fact nursing is the only job that can be placed above motherhood, because a female nurse can do all the things a mother can after a baby is born, but a mother cannot instantly be a nurse.

All Kids are not high energy and anxious, Kids addicted to processed sugar and junk food are like this, and this is where You deserve a husband who would handle the *High energy* stage of the kids and you get the peace and quite...

True kids do not allow time, but it is a sacrifice as a adult we need to make.

My apologies "When I said, women should not do stressful jobs", I really forgot that there are jobs like a nurse, and therapist, school teacher, veterinarian, babysitting. For which women will always be more suitable because of their feminine energy and spiritual healing power.

But really other risky jobs like manager, soldier, fireman, these jobs can strip away that feminine energy and bring horrible stress on women, so they should stay away from these.

[Anonymous]

First off earning money and bearing children are two totally separate issues.

Guys who have a problem with women earning are living in a time warp if you ask me. Most families require both partners to work in some fashion. It's just the times we live in. My personal view on this is it's a partnership. Both partners should do whatever is needed for the good of the partnership. And that needs to be decided between them. Not every situation is cookie cutter.

As far as bearing children go. I would NEVER marry a woman who didn't want to have kids. Yes, it's her choice not to want to have them. And guess what it's my choice to NOT marry her because of that. Women by biology birth the next generation. All the things you listed, health, etc. Are a factor. And that is the sacrifice that MOST women are willing to make. Any woman that puts her vanity over her wanting to have children, her commitment is suspect. I know you're already disagreeing with this. And that is fine. As I said, you're entitled to not want to bear children and a man is entitled to not want to marry you. Everybody's happy. 🙂

[Audiofox]

But if enough of them are doing that why is it almost an implicitly requirement that all women do it? I didn’t mention vanity but it is interesting to point out that men often expect the perfect body and the children. From what I’ve seen even with the time and focus on weight loss and fitness a woman’s body is rarely the same afterward.

[Opinion Owner]

I said that's the sacrifice that women make. Her unwillingness to bear children shows she puts her vanity over her family. Why would a guy want to commit to a woman willing to give so little? What you're saying in essence is you want a guy to commit to you for life. But you want to maintain your appearance in case you don't want to stay committed to him. If a woman hasn't properly vetted a guy before having a child with him then that's on her. So few women today even know what a quality man is. And while I feel bad for them, wisdom starts with accepting they're not always right. Women choose bad men then blame the bad men for her bad choices. Being an adult starts with taking responsibilities for your actions. I'm sorry to say society has an epidemic of full grown girls. Not mature women.

[Audiofox]

Isn’t giving subjective though? I am more than willing to give plenty, including home cooked meals, a clean house, not using his money for everything and providing care for his family members who may need it as I am already a nurse. I just am not interested in sacrificing every ounce of freedom I have when plenty of other women are willing to have children. It’s not about looking hot, it’s about having the freedom to travel and save.

[Audiofox]

I thought appearance wasn’t to be maintained for the husband? Why is the assumption that appearance is being maintained for others?

[Audiofox]

Was*

[Audiofox]

Sacrifice can amount to a number of different things, not just becoming a mother if you happen to be a woman.

[Opinion Owner]

That's the same as a guy saying to you that I'll be loving, and committed to you. I will work hard everyday to fulfill my role as a husband to you. But I get to sleep with other women. Would you be ok with that? I would certainly hope not. So why would you expect a guy to be?

[Opinion Owner]

You don't get to choose what a guy expects. Just like he doesn't get to choose what you expect.

[Audiofox]

So, wouldn’t “vetting” a guy also require the dreaded “gold digging” to a certain extent? Men here complain about women dating or marrying for love because they “should have known better” and then get mad at us for “knowing better” in the form of admonishing us for being “gold diggers”. No matter how you put men always want us to be the bad guy even if their parameters are paradoxical.

[Opinion Owner]

Absolutely! Those guys are wrong. First off I have no sympathy for any guy that complains about a woman. If I choose a bad woman that's MY FAULT! Not hers.

[Opinion Owner]

Guys have all the time in the world. If they rush the vetting process that's on them.

[Audiofox]

How is refusing motherhood the same thing as allowing a man to cheat on me openly? That doesn’t even make logical sense. You’re grasping at straws to protect a very emotionally charged outlook on life.

Just because I’m a woman does not mean I am only capable of learning wisdom and self sacrifice through motherhood.

I happen to appreciate the idea of loving someone for who they are, not just the resources they offer and recently I’ve men a man perfectly okay with not having children.

[Opinion Owner]

Look you can twist this all you want. The fact remains MOST men will not want to marry unwilling to make this sacrifice. Be mad about it. It isn't going to change reality hun. 🙂

[Opinion Owner]

Maryy women unwilling to make this sacrifice*

[Audiofox]

I’ll give you an example. My mother is an intensely bipolar woman who has severe drug issues and only calls me when she needs something. She’s never cared about anyone but herself and was a very neglectful mother. Should she have become a parent just because she’s a woman?

[Audiofox]

I’m not “twisting” anything, my responses are perfectly logical and I’m not remotely angry about this. The one getting emotional here is clearly you.

[Opinion Owner]

That explains a lot actually.

[Opinion Owner]

Hunky if I get any calmer I'll be asleep.😆😆😆 save your projecting.🙂

[Opinion Owner]

Hunny*

[Audiofox]

Or, I became a mature, reasonable adult who actually works for a living and doesn’t do drugs, I’m not even bipolar, luckily, but I don’t want to potentially pass that on to children. There’s nothing selfish or negative about that.

[Opinion Owner]

Who you trying to convince? Me? Or YOU!

[MzAsh]

It’s not unfeminine or man hating. Low quality men try to tell you that to scare and manipulate you until settling for guys like themselves. They’re angry because no one they want is wanting them back. They’re angry because women are choosing careers over being with them and refuse to have their babies.


I’m a lot like you. I love my career and I’m not interested in having kids at this time. I’ve got a husband that supports and shares this sentiment. There ARE good men out there who won’t expect you to depend on them or have kids. Forget the rest.

[Haha456]

who cares about what misogynistic patriarchists think? they can't control what women do. There are more women than ever before who do not plan on having kids and they're EMBRACING IT.

[Berethor]

Considering that feminism ruining japan it's make sense, women should not choose career over family, it's bad. Having children is the main purpose of life, and woman lacking a maternal instinct is unfeminine. Disliking women aging and wanting them to have children is not contradicting, women get old anyway, even if they not moms, and old women become infertile, so they should get a man and children before becoming too old.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/03/japan-low-births-population-decline-2021/

[MzAsh]

Some people just aren’t meant to be parents. On the extreme end, you have people like Casey Anthony and Chris Watts who annihilate their kids/family out of sheer resentment for the role and responsibility of parenthood. More commonly, you have, what I eouod estimate to be millions to billions of shitty parents throughout history who let’s be honest, would have been happier and better off not having kids at all.

[MzAsh]

I firmly believe childhood trauma and mental health crisis we have now is significantly related to people having unwanted, unappreciated children who would have been wiser to just go on the pill and opt out of parenthood completely.

[Berethor]

If you want to be technical about it, people who don't meant to be parents also don't meant to have sex, because the main purpose of sex is to have kids, also many religious people would tell you that having an abortion is as bad as what Casey Anthony and Chris Watts did. As for shitty parents, well at least they try, people who don't want kids are more dangerous to society if there are too many of them, society without enough kids is dying out, and even on smaller scale, those people ruin their family.

[es20490446e]

@MzAsh What does your mother think about this?

[MzAsh]

My mom is no longer living.

[es20490446e]

@MzAsh What do you think makes a woman valuable to a "quality" man?

[MzAsh]

A quality man values a woman who brings maturity, takes care of herself, confidence, intelligence, direct communication, respects and loves him, listens to his problems, remains open and honest, makes time for him, encourages him, acts as a life partner, is there for him in times of injury and illness, is a good lover.

[Berethor]

Brings maturity? or in other words want children, as not wanting children is immature.

[MzAsh]

Not wanting kids is not “immature.” It’s simply a preference.

[es20490446e]

@MzAsh Okay, maybe we can narrow it down. Because there's plenty of points there.

What would instinctively draw a "high quality" man into a woman?

[MzAsh]

Instinctively there will be a magnetism about her. He’ll observe her and know she carries herself in a way most women don’t.

[es20490446e]

@MzAsh I have a list of photos of women I consider attractive. All of them have something in common. Want to see a few?

[Audiofox]

Feminism hasn’t even really taken off in Japan, I’ve studied this culture for over a decade now and it’s not “feminism” lol. It’s really about a culture that normalizes keeping the genders separate from childhood which results in both genders being too nervous or actually, totally uninterested, in approaching each other. The advent of tech, porn and obsession with extreme youth also puts men in Japan in a mindset not conducive at all to marriage and children.

It’s still normalized that once a woman marries she no longer works, especially after children. Some young women just don’t find that appealing especially in a culture where the husband is never home and is not allowed to refuse to work overtime. That’s just lonely. The only slightly feminist attitude I see in female Japanese youth is the very logical understanding that without one’s own ability to make money, one’s freedom is absolutely curtailed so they’re putting off marriage or foregoing it altogether but this attitude is very recent as far as feminist attitudes within a culture go.

You can blame women for everything all you want but every gender related issue any society faces carry’s fault on both sides. Men usually want to curtail female autonomy to have power and dominion and women usually end up too picky as a result of the gauntlet that is trying to worth through men who lie to get sex, trying to avoid emotionally manipulative and abusive men of which there are plenty and deciding which sort of income level in a partner is reasonable in this economy despite the fact they’ll be called gold diggers for it.

[es20490446e]

Yeah, that's what I thought. When they said "feminism in Japan" I was thinking "what? if Japan is rather the opposite! A sexist culture towards women".

[AnUglyBarnacle]

Because women are ultimately the gatekeepers of reproduction. If they don't want kids, then our species dies.

All the individual women not wanting children adds up to countries like South Korea, Germany, and Japan experiencing cratering birth rates. Those civilizations are dying.

Carrying and birthing a child is the most feminine act / aspect that a woman can perform, because men literally cannot do it. (No, men cannot get pregnant.)

80%+ of women inherently want children at a biological level, but their education (translation: brainwashing) is convincing themselves to deny their very nature.

You can do what you want like anybody else, but we live in a society.

[Audiofox]

I think it’s important to understand how irreversibly damaging pregnancy and childbirth can be on a woman’s body. Things are more expensive than they’ve ever been, does it make logical sense to raise a family when things are as expensive as they are?

Women can be educated and still choose to become mothers. Reading books doesn’t prevent women from becoming mothers and that’s a rather toxic point of view to have. Most women I know who chose not to have children chose to do so because they wanted to not because they felt brainwashed into doing it.

If men want a future in which women want to have children they will need to respect the fact that at least after the child turns six and goes to school full time we will want to make our income because denying us our own income is entrapment. If we are to remain home for our kids first few years of life then we shouldn’t be discriminated against later for gaps in our resumes.

In short, men will have to respect our personal autonomy and self respect much more of they want us to bear their children. Men will need to contribute and support and be actual parents themselves. We want to illuminate our minds too and, honestly, staying home with the kids all day every day doesn’t do that. It fulfills the heart and gleans wisdom but it isn’t mind expanding or actually even very fun.

[jshm2]

You're confused.

You've GOT to earn your own money these days. People who are old fashioned or don't pay their own bills are the only ones who don't understand. Shit is getting bad for most single income households in the current crisis. So if anyone says "woman shouldn't work" then you hit back back with "then I expect you to pay their expenses, whatever they may, without complaint!"

As for kids, not every woman should have kids - they're just not going to be good mothers.

[Anonymous]

I think you're free to live your life as you want with no obligation to have children. Your unbroken work history will help you in your career and lack of responsibility to others also. You'll have a good standard of living and take holidays and travel potentially. I wonder what you'll make of your decisions in 10, 20 years time. You must be aware that most others do not follow your track which may mean like minded friends are few and far between. While there are men that will love the childless lifestyle, are there enough of them to choose from.

[Audiofox]

I’m not really bothered by the concept of potentially not getting married anymore. It did bother me up until recently when I realized marriage comes with its own potential constraints. Therefore, no marriage means even more freedom! Different people choose different lives for themselves and I don’t think gender has to change that for most people depending on what their goals are. I love my nursing job and I love providing care for older people, I am just not personally a fan of children as they do not understand my deep need for peace, orderliness and quiet time on my off hours.

[Opinion Owner]

Marriage is meant to come with compromises as you become we. It also offers a lot of life experience and richness.
But if you think it'll work for you long term, play to your strengths, keep doing it.

[Audiofox]

Life experiences, sacrifice, wisdom etc can all be gleaned from different life experiences as well. Being a woman does not mean the only possible way I can gain wisdom is through motherhood.

[loveslongnails]

When you, or anyone says "why do people..." etc, I want to ask "which people, how many, how often?" Is it the ranting of some misogynist on here, or some losers trapped in pure patriarchal bullshit? I don't doubt you've heard it at some point from someone, but if this isn't culture specific, who is saying this? They're idiots, why bother with them?

[Audiofox]

I think you’re being pretentious. These attitudes are all over the website.

I bother with them because they’re growing in numbers and have caused multiple terrorists attacks, one in my own provincial capital city barely five years ago. Not taking the incel problem seriously will result in more deaths, more terror and a cultural shift that will be difficult to reverse considering a number of men who harbour these views have made it to parliament and senate.

[loveslongnails]

Sorry, I don't know anything about this in your country, but it sounds like utter bullshit. There have ALWAYS been men who have these views - why are they now "terrorists" ? The "incel problem" is real? I don't think so.

[Audiofox]

Tell yourself what you want to make yourself feel better but the proof is out there if you bother to look for it but you won’t because you don’t care.

[loveslongnails]

Why don't you link it if you're going to make a claim such as "the incel problem seriously will result in more deaths, more terror and a cultural shift that will be difficult to reverse considering a number of men who harbour these views have made it to parliament and senate." Even if that's true, "a number of people" (how many is that) holding a view doesn't mean it becomes a law, unless that number is a majority.

In my country, there are extreme right wing publications, like the Guardian, who claim " Experts fear rising global ‘incel’ culture could provoke terrorism". Experts turned out to be ONE person who was a government advisor who said "it COULD be a real concern". That number was 50 documented cases in the USA since 2014. That amounts to ONE case per state in the last 8 years. ONE per state, in 8 years.

While misogyny is the cause of the crimes, the severity of them indicates mental health issues going FAR beyond misogyny or being an 'incel'. Statistically, they fall into the same category as any other crazy who goes on a spree for any other reason. We are always dealing with "fringees" - incels are just a different flavor of the same mentally unstable people who commit violent acts.

[Alex8736]

I'm a realist and tell it like it is and after reading your post and everything you stated is 100% normal where you are goal oriented, adventurous, and most importantly independent when making decisions so if you are a "man hater" then im a man hater too. 😊😇

[misogynistic_pig]

Nobody cares if women want money or don't want to have children, don't expect to be applauded for that

[Audiofox]

That’s not why I asked the question. I asked the question because certain men’s attitudes are contradictory and I’m genuinely trying to understand it. Good god.

[kespethdude]

All those "people" saying it is are ignorant 12 year old incels living in their mama's basement with nothing better to do than spout bullshit and lies.

[UniquelyBasic]

Do men actually have issues with women making their own money?

[Audiofox]

I was told I was an “objectively awful feminist” for stating I preferred to make my own money on another post.

[MzAsh]

I’ve been told I’m “masculine” or “the man in relationship” for having ambitions and being the breadwinner in my house. I often wonder if these people don’t realize how much they’re going resent a woman who tries to squeeze a man for a pricey allowance. Like oh you don’t want a wife to have a career but you also don’t want to fork over the money to get to fund her hobbies, interests, clothing, hair, nails, makeup, doctors appointments, etc. That shit alone will cost a woman 60k a year easily. You think most men have that to give away to her? Lol nope.

[es20490446e]

Would you say those women that had children would be happier if one day they waked up and their children had disappeared?

Or would they rather be sad?

[joeldalton]

Normal society understands that you're forgoing children mostly to indulge in a mass-consumerist culture that doesn't give two shits about you.

[Audiofox]

No, in my case it’s for travel, the pursuit of knowledge and the kind of spiritual wisdom that comes from denying myself certain things most others partake in. Spirituality to me is about finding peace in a zen Buddhist sort of way or almost even a nun sort of way and children have never been peaceful to me in the way that I need. I find them chaotic, loud and destructive.

Not appreciating consumerism doesn’t have to come with a traditionalist view. You can be anti-consumerist and not into having a family regardless of your gender. Being a woman does not mean the only wisdom available to be is within motherhood.

[OddBeMe]

It’s only loud aholes who suffer from toxic masculinity who think this.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to date someone who isn’t as ambitious as me. It really a money thing…just life goals.