For those of you “supporting” Palestine in the 2023 Gaza war can you please explain to me exactly what Israel was supposed to do after the attack?

[Anonymous]

Please don’t tell me “well Israel did this or Israel did that”. If you give any excuse whatsoever for what happened on October 7th then you are terrorist sympathizer and an anti semite. Period. Not kidding.

There was zero excuse for the atrocities Hamas committed on that day. None. That wasn’t collateral damage. That wasn’t rogue militants disobeying orders. No. That was 100% intentional murder, rape and abduction of completely innocent civilians. It was planned and celebrated. If you don’t condemn that then you support terror. There is no way around that.

But seriously wtf is Israel supposed to do after that attack? Just say “well Hamas you murdered innocent civilians, raped women, murdered babies in their cribs and took 200 human hostages (most civilians). But we know things are tough in Gaza so we understand. We will just let you be.”

Even if Israel was that weak and suicidal not do anything it would enable other terrorist organizations like Hezbollah to attack even more (they are far scarier and better trained/funded). You can’t show weakness in the Middle East.

So seriously what is Israel supposed to do? Give me a concrete answer on that.

Updates

6 mo

For the record it’s possible to completely denounce what Hamas did on Oct 7th but still offering concrete opinions on how Israel should respond (regardless if anybody agrees with them or not).

But what is scaring me is how people living in the west can’t denounce what Hamas did on Oct 7th. Some are even celebrating it which is heinous and disgusting. That horrifying.

Updates

6 mo

Also for the record I absolutely do NOT think it’s “okay” that innocent Palestinians are dying in this conflict. Not at all. But context 100% matters on this. One side is intentionally targeting civilians and using civilians as human shields. The other side is doing all it can to minimize civilian casualties but at the same time has to effectively kill the combatant enemy.

[jshm2]

I can tell you exactly what the occupying state of Israel did to "deserve" the attack.

Hamas warned them not to attack the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood. Israel did exactly that. Hamas told them not to attack people attending the Al-Aksa mosque. Israel did exactly that. Hamas told them not to imprison Palestinian civilians on kangaroo charges, Israel did exactly that.

So Hamas did what they said they will. It was the occupying state of Israel which is to blame. It is now wringing it's wrists as it knows it fucked up. Corrupt Bibi knows his coalition could fall apart. He could risk going to jail for his failure to boot.

The only reason Israel is fucked, is Bibi needs to stay in power to avoid his court cases, and end up in jail like he deserves. He couldn't give a shit about the Israeli people, let alone the Palestinians.

There are no "random acts of violence" on Israel. They just don't tell you what they have done the week or month before to deserve it.

[Asker]

Alright thank you for providing concrete examples. That was what I wanted to know.

Can you provide me a non-partisan reference about the details of the Al-Aksa mosque bombing along with your other examples? Wikipedia is fine.

I did hear about that but I wanted to know the exact facts of what happened there. For example if Hamas was hiding a weapons stash, military assets, etc beneath a mosque there is more context to that incident. Not saying it was justified. But I want to know the full details.

Thank you.

[Avicenna]

He can't back it up with any non-propaganda source. And the attacks on Israeli civilians would anyhow not be justified even if the propaganda were true, plus the terror attacks on Israeli civilians had been planned for a long time

[Asker]

@Avicenna yep. Totally agree. That’s my existing POV as well.

I thanked him for at least attempting to give me a some rational justification for this. That’s better than 95% of the deranged and sickening bullshit excuses I’ve seen in the last few days.

But I am calmly asking someone to challenge my hard facts. Something to convince me otherwise there is some sort of moral equivalence here and all the hard facts continue to point otherwise. The IDF bombed a mosque and killed innocent civilians? I believe it. But WHY did they do it? If Hamas is hiding weapons supplies and military assets inside or beneath the mosque that DOES change the context. And the context matters of whole hell of lot.

So please someone prove me wrong using sound reasoning and logic. I really want to believe side do this argument has better motivations beyond rabid hatred and anti-semitism.

[strateguy632]

such excuses leads only to verbal condemnation not raiding a town killing and abducting civilians.
you are using those accusation to promote... terrorism.

[boggboss]

My Unqualified mind would say send troops in that way civilian casualties could be kept down and those that truly deserve to die

[Asker]

I agree. Hamas has intentionally honeycombed Gaza (built underground bases, tunnels, etc) and hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields.

The problem is the casualty rate for Israel is going to be very high with door to door fighting. But that might be their only choice to eradicate Hamas while minimizing civilian casualties as much as possible. Hamas WANTS innocent Palestinian civilians to get killed because they know the western media will eat it all up.

[boggboss]

The way I see it they will need to go door to door to actually root out hamas anyway so it should have been the focus the bombing they are currently doing is more likely to hit civs and turn more people to hamas side I understand why they are dropping bombs but just see it as a added step but not the one that will end this

[Asker]

What scares me the most is how many people in WESTERN countries are supporting Hamas. The time for ignorance on what they are all about has passed.

[boggboss]

Meh its a highly polarising situation many are able to justify the actions because of how the Palestinians are treated I think how they are treated is also shit but no level of killing of randos is acceptable

[Asker]

Right. But people can’t do that in Democratic western countries. Some people are openly justifying violent jihadism in the western countries including politicians like Rashida Talib. If she can’t 100% denounce what happened on Oct 7th then she supports it whether she admits it or not.

That’s f’ing scary. Very scary.

[boggboss]

Their are plenty in positions of power on both sides of politics that don't denounce evil in the world its not a new thing mate

[Asker]

Yes but this particular terrorist attack was not open to any interpretation. At all.

It’s possible to 100% denounce what Hamas did on Oct 7th and still be highly critical of Israel. But people aren’t even doing that.

[boggboss]

The same way many think the Palestinians should just be nuked off the eath and it would be complety fine and moral

[Asker]

I never believed the Palestinians should be annihilated. Hamas is a different story. And they are using innocent Palestinians as human shields.

[boggboss]

I never said u think this but their are it hers out their that do think this

[Asker]

And that’s exactly what is so horrifying. Westerners supporting and celebrating violent jihadism.

This is like support rallies in London and Sydney after the 9/11 attacks. The most deranged of all are the white liberals supporting this insanity. Particularly white liberal women.

Leftist white women are literally born missing a chromosome. Do they have any idea what their lives would be like if they lived in a Muslim country with sharia law? They would be LUCKY if they were forced to marry and wear hijabs. Many do them would be whipped and thrown off buildings if they engaged in their current lifestyles in a Muslim country.

[strateguy632]

they will, after weakening the defensed. called soften up preparation

[boggboss]

I understand the strategy but in this process they are killing more civilians then they are hamas so its not somthing I can agree with

[Asker]

That hospital bombing was very likely a Hamas rocket misfire. But of course it’s being blamed on the IDF. But I just don’t see the IDF intentionally bombing an entire hospital like that. That would be a huge intel screw up. Even if Hamas was hiding in that hospital (and they likely are) it’s hard to believe Israel would risk killing 500 innocent civilians. We will likely never know the truth of it.

[boggboss]

Thierry action upto this point with starving the country of water and power wouldn't lead me to belive they wouldn't have a issue bombing a hospital

[Asker]

Israel needs to do a full ground invasion to minimize civilian casualties. It’s going to get a lot more soldiers killed. But every time an airstrike kills innocent civilians and/or Hamas kills its own people the western media will always blame on Israel. Doesn’t matter if it was collateral damage or not.

[boggboss]

Which I what I said they should do when they are dropping bombs knowing that civilians will die but its acceptable collateral damage they should be shamed about it yes hamas is worst but hamas is under the registration as a terrorist group the idf are not yet if u saw picturs of what's happening u wouldn't be able to tell who's bombing are who's

[Asker]

It’s now been proven that Hamas misfired their own rocket and it landed on a parking lot next to the hospital.

Why did our media take Hamas word over Israel’s to begin with? Now there is rioting going on worldwide, embassies are being evacuated, Jews are terrified and idiots took the original news at face value via bias confirmation.

For the record I do not believe Israel is beyond reproach and without sin. But comparing the IDF to Hamas is like comparing citric acid to cyanide. There is little to none moral equivalence here. Also Hamas was COUNTING on the western media to their side and sure enough look what’s happened.

I don’t want innocent Palestinians dying. I also still agree that the IDF has to go door to door (which is going to get a lot more Israelis killed).

But seriously wtf is wrong with our western media? They could at least first reported that “Hospital in Gaza bombed. Culprit uncertain” but instead they took Hamas’ word and RAN with it. Their gross negligence is inciting riots and getting people killed. They should be held criminally liable for getting it THAT wrong.

[boggboss]

I dont believe they questioned it because I don't believe anyone believed its not somthing they could have done I saw the headline and I wasn't even angry about it just sad more civilians died I do agree tho not enough is being done to correct the mistakes the news have made

[Asker]

And these mistakes are far from harmless. The disinformation is getting people killed and influencing politics. I am arguing with someone right now who STILL believes the IDF is responsible for that.

It’s not the first big mistake they made either. It tells you where their allegiances lie. But that isn’t a light criticism any more. There should be criminal punishment when they get reporting THAT wrong. You and I would get prosecuted if we yelled “fire!” in a crowded movie theater but the mass media won’t. There is a difference between freedom of press vs gross misreporting that has real world consequences.

[madhatters4]

supporting palestine doesn't mean that israel is wrong for wanting to exact revenge for the attack. but the palestinians did not attack israel or gaza. Hamas and Hezbollah are behind those attacks.

it would be like if a militant group in america attacked Canada and Canada attacked the Cities where the organizations dwelled. sure Canada deserves some revenge but does the city of Boston deserve to suffer if some militant group in it bombed Canada?

[strateguy632]

your equation palestinian differ from gaza is false, because gaza is called palestinian and those palestinian did abduct jew hostages.

[madhatters4]

@strateguy632 i'm not equating the palestinians to gaza. i'm dealing with the palestinians vs hamas. Palestine is a "state" palestinians are residents of that state. Hamas is terrorist organization, they are no not necessarily palestinians.

so my comparison is lumping a nation into a terrorist organization.
e. g. the KKK exist in America. Americans are in the KKK but the KKK cannot be equated with Americans as a whole.

so i can support the peaceful citizens of Palestine (and do) without supporting Hamas

[Asker]

@madhatters4 my issue is people who say they are supporting Palestine but at the same time refuse to denounce Hamas which is clearly a terrorist organization.

[madhatters4]

absolutely. hama is undoubtedly a terrorist org

[Asker]

Alright thank you for acknowledging that. But I am seeing people in western countries who won’t say that. That’s scary. Very scary.

[madhatters4]

really? kids are losing scholarships to school and people are losing jobs for voicing their support for hamas. plenty of people in our government are very vocal about their condemnation of hamas.

it is just important to discern the difference between Hamas and Palestine as they are different. Similar to America and the KKK

[Asker]

Well America never elected the KKK to represent itself. But yes there is a difference between Hamas and Palestine but Hamas controls EVERYTHING and I do mean everything in Palestinian. They habitually lie to the media and everyone else.

I am no fan of cancel culture. But when you openly a support an organization that 100% a terrorist organization (and brags about it) then says a lot about you.

I got a feeling you and I can do the rabbit hole on debating the fringe right organizations here vs Hamas. I am no fan of Q anón.

But Hamas murdered 1300 people and mostly civilians. The raped women, took hostages and murdered children and then BRAGGED about it. There is nothing open to interpretation there. Nothing. That’s heinous and the time for naive ignorance about what they really are about has passed. So yes i do think there should be consequences if someone openly supports that. It’s not radical politics. It’s terror.

[Anonymous]

“Please don’t tell me “well Israel did this or Israel did that”. If you give any excuse whatsoever for what happened on October 7th then you are terrorist sympathizer and an anti semite. Period.”

You ask a question, requesting that people explain the reason for the attacks, then without batting an eye you immediately denounce anyone who would give you any of the explanations that you just requested as an antisemite and terrorist sympathizer.

So you’re really not looking for any explanations. You just want to stand on your soapbox and give everyone a sermon.

[Asker]

Wrong. I just do not accept any excuse or justification for what happened on Oct 7th. I don’t want to hear “well it’s an apartheid system” or “Gaza is an open air prison” or some other bs for what happened on Oct 7th. If you can’t unequivocally denounce what happened on Oct 7th then shows a very serious and scary issue with your POV.

But what is done is done. But how exactly is Israel supposed to react to that? Just do nothing? Tell me exactly what they are supposed to do now.

[strateguy632]

wrong that wasn't the question. it was how israel can RESPOND. read the question.

[NamerOfStars]

If you're trying to take a nuanced stand on a complex conflict, you're not doing yourself any favors by calling people who support a state full of Arab Muslims "anti-Semites". Palestine's a hell of a lot more Semitic than Israel.

[strateguy632]

the question was about israel response. but you only accuse one side. that is precisely jew hating.

[NamerOfStars]

@strateguy632 I didn't say anything about Jews. And assuming that they're the ONLY ONES who count as "Semites" is pretty damned bigoted, dude.

[Iamcoming]

Israel must stop to the attack of Palestine Borders. They continue this since 1948.

[Asker]

Okay but whose land was it originally? Israel occupied this land for thousands of years before they were taken over by the Ottoman Empire.

This is not the same as the “colonialism” of Europeans settling (and invading) North America starting in the 1600s. Jews occupied Israel thousands of years before that.