People who say Israel is 70 years old, what do you think happened between ancient Israel up to 70 years ago?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

It kinda just blows my mind that people say that Israel is 70 years old... And they seem like they really belive that.

Just to get one thing straight, everyone in that situation over there are victims of two governments and the terrorist group they funded and staffed with non Muslims. I get that.

But I just don't understand the Muslim timeline of Israel. The jews came to that land 200 years ago when it was barren ground used by travelers, built a civilization, had to deal with everything from Alexander the great to the romans, ... Disappeared and then came back?

Where's the part where they stole the land?

[NamerOfStars]

Israel IS seventy years old. It's not a continuation of the ancient state that bore the same name, despite being in the same place; at best, it's a sequel. If you have a baby tomorrow and name him "John Rockefeller", that doesn't mean your baby is suddenly 185 years old. Nations are no different.

200 years ago, the land that would comprise modern Israel was part of the Ottoman empire: it wasn't "barren ground", it was populated and administrated, in no small part by the descendants of the inhabitants of the original Israel. If you meant 2000 years ago, same thing (swapping "Roman" for "Ottoman"). If meant THREE thousand years ago (give or take a few centuries), it was inhabited by the Canaanite people the Jews stole it from. Jebus was a thriving city (whether on the site of Jerusalem or not) before they arrived; the whole "early Israelite history" section of the Bible details the brutal slaughter of the inhabitants of the area when they showed up, which at times extended past humans and even animals into plants. "Leave no living thing", indeed. THAT is when they stole the land.

I don't mean to pick on the Jews here; that wasn't really very different from any conquest of the era, but you don't get credit for settling an empty frontier if it's only empty because you killed everyone living there.

Cahokia, in southwestern Illinois, was the largest pre-Columbian settlement north of the Rio Grande (in what would become the US, obviously), and in the fifteen century, had a higher population than London or Paris. The massive pyramid of Monk's Mound is larger than either the Great Pyramid of Giza or the Aztec Pyramid of the Sun. "Cahokia" isn't the name its builders gave the city; it's what it was called by the Indians who moved in centuries after it was abandoned. They found a somewhat dilapidated but still intact infrastructure, and took advantage of it. Should they get credit for building it? Should the American settlers, who took it over after those natives died off? Should the modern government of Illinois, which wants to bulldoze it to build a parking garage?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I mean, by that logic, every time the milenium falcon in starwars was stolen by another character, it was a different ship just with the same name.

The history of the the jews battleing there is very hotly contested because it was unclear where the people there were from. That area was very underdeveloped and frequented by merchants. But scattered through the area were these mercenary village kind of settlements where it is largely believed they mostly came from Greece. These people had a jaded past working with and fighting against Egypt. To look back almost 3000 years later and say that they slaughtered everyone there because of a Bible story is a little bit of a jump. By all historical accounts, that area was the wild west.

It's an interesting point you made about killimg every living thing there. I might need to brush up on this.

But an even more interesting point is the Indian one because if anything the jews are more like the Indians in that example, only after the land was taken over, they took their land back and the "Americans" are complaining that the Indians took the land from them.

I just feel like it's the ultimate double standard of Europe to make this argument.

[NamerOfStars]

The origins of the locals doesn't really matter; all humans ultimately come from northeastern Africa, but that doesn't mean we should be limited to that area, or that subsequent claims are invalid. Likewise, while scriptures are a lousy guide to history, there isn't much else to claim a clear line of descent from the Israelites to the Israelis; claims of ownership based on genetics are kind of suspect, but they're much more substantive than claims of ownership based on ideology.

And no- the whole point is that the Jews WEREN'T like the Cahokians, who took over abandoned settlements of civilizations torn apart (most likely) by famine, or like the Americans, who took over abandoned settlements of settlers torn apart by disease; proto-Israel was far from empty when they arrived. It wasn't settlement, it was conquest. The land of Israel, whatever name it bore at the time, was conquered by the Caliphate, conquered by Rome, conquered by Greece, conquered by Persia, conquered by Babylon, conquered by Assyria, and conquered by the Jews.

That's usually how land changes hands. It's a lousy double standard of Europe, true, but your own double standards are showing, too. You don't get to excuse the sins of your ancestors just because they make you uncomfortable.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

That's not how Egypt wrote about what the jews did. And wouldn't you expect their account to be the harsher one? The royal records recovered from ancient Egypt don't say a ton about it, but it pretty clearly states to the jews going to a land where mercaneries who Egypt was largely unfriendly with at the time and alludes the "cananites" were essentially bloodthirsty hobos.

Nobody is using genetics to make these claims or using the Bible for anything other than additional circumstantial evidence. It was a trade area that was mentioned in places like Africa and Europe as well as written about in several soldiers journals during battles which took place within a couple hundred years of when the jews were believed to have established Israel.

So far as being uncomfortable, I'm more just confused about why people feel the way they do. I'm not even here to necessarily change anyone's mind but some of the things people say are either so wrong I feel almost a responsibility to at least give them the opportunity to look something up they never thought about or let someone teach me something.

And to call it a conquest kind of is part of my point. It's a bit of a reach and a lot of your examples I just have trouble understanding why you see the Israelis as the Americans in that story. Especially since there was no such thing as being Muslim yet.

[normalice]

"How far back do we stop tallying grievances?" Is always the question when discussing land that was fought over. And the answer is always "some time after my side did a bad thing." There are no innocent races. No one is absent an ancestor that didn't rape, murder, or steal. To act like we're all above it now is simply false. We gravitate towards authoritarianism and violence as instinctively as any moth to a flame and defining "others" as "wrong" is the enormous gilded gate leading down that path.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Lol great point

[mandyfire98]

I think they claim it was stolen because the arabic people had control of the area because the ottomans took control for centuries. Then Israel the actual recognized state was aknowledged in 1948.

From my understanding. The jewish people were there obviously before the crusades and during biblical times but the Palestinians claim they had that area for 4 centuries until the late 40s.

It's definitely a messy situation.

[Anonymous]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/dEoVzKyD_IM

. .

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I've seen this 😂

[Opinion Owner]

Then why did you ask your question?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I know what the history of the area is, I just don't get where these other people are getting lost. Honestly, a lot of this is highschool history.

[MrNameless]

you lost me at ben shapiro. XD

[Telekinetic-Potato]

@MrNameless Shapiro ain't all bad. He's almost always at least factually right

[Astarlessnightsky]

The Land that is now Israel and Palastina, was inhabited by ancestors of both jews and muslims, as far back as the bronze age. Neither group stole the land.

Its was a back and forth for centuries, and than there were also christians coming in during the crusades and so on...

The whole situation is a giant clusterfuck, no one is right, everyone is drowning in the blood of others, everyone is responsible for unspeakable acts of violence.

The only viable solution that doesn't include a gigantic genocide, is to unite Israel and Palastina into one new souvereign country for both jews and muslims with equal rights.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

That's what Isreal at least says they're trying to do.

[McLlovin]

I’ve learned to investigate things on my own. A lot of times they dont tell you the full truth with history and people sometimes are nonchalant about history so they eat whatever is told to them.


So if you’re really interested you got to do your own research. Be careful though because where you get your source also matters.

[Dargil]

I am a Zionist for religious reasons. It's none the less true that foreigners have always conquered sovereign lands. Israel as been conquered by Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Saracens and Ottomans. By the grace of G0d, Israel was restored to its originally granted residents. I am content with that.

[OtterMan68]

Israel as an independent state is 70 years old. Before that, you have to go back a VERY long time to find it as an independent state. It was part of the Babylonian empire, Egyptian Empire, Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire, British Empire...

[Zestyassmf1997]

I think it was just changing hands between a variety of empires. Modern Israelis, I’m inclined to think, are not actually genetically related to the ancient Israelites. I think many if not most Israelis are of European descent.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

So you don't think Israel's look a little Egyptian? Not even the woman?

[Zestyassmf1997]

Egyptians are a mixture of Greeks and Arabs, if I recall correctly.

[Twalli]

They lost the land and had no legal rights to it anymore. They have a legal right to the size of the country now.

[Anonymous]

God's apple of His eye.