Debunking the "Gender Pay Gap" myth

[Anonymous]

GAASSSP! Not another "Anti-Feminist thread" by a low-life MRA, misogynistic brat!

Hey sweet cheeks! Well I'm neither... I'm just here to set things straight:

The gender pay gap is a myth!

Now I know a lot of you on GaG, especially the MRA air-heads and Feminist hot-heads, will find this hard to believe/understand, so I'm going to try my best and write this as simply as possible. Hopefully you can keep up.

Gender Pay Gap: "The gender pay gap (also known as gender wage gap, male–female income difference, gender gap in earnings, gender earnings gap, gender income difference) is the difference between male and female earnings expressed as a percentage of male earnings, according to the OECD" (according to Wikipedia.org).

What Wikipedia and many Feminist activists fail to include is that the gender pay gap relies totally on averages.

They take the average pay of a man and subtract the average pay of a woman; they notice a difference and... "OMG WOMINZ R PEYD LEZZ"!!

Fact is men and women thend to choose different career paths in life. Men lean towards sciences and sports, which both are paid more. Women, on the other hand, will go for Humanities, which are paid less.

So my main point here is to help Feminists, or people in general, who still believe there is a gender wage gap really understand that they're being lied to... You're not being paid less, you're EARNING less - BIG DIFFERENCE.

If you seriously believe you're earning less than a man who has 1) the same qualifications as you 2) the same job as you 3) works the same hours as you 4) has the same breaks as you 5) had the same interview as you.... then please do contact the police!

Peace.

[Anonymous]

Maybe if some of you people read the entire thing instead of complaining about the first two lines you'd get something out of it. He didn't sugarcoat his feelings and he straight up told you some decent facts. He probably put those lines there to root out the people who are too stubborn to have an open mind.

[GirlsLie]

You're assuming that I don't agree with some of his points, just because I didn't bother to put up with his patronizing, arrogant attitude and you're wrong too.

[genuinlysensitive]

Yea he is venting a bit in the beginning. Odd how so many people take a man venting as "arrogant" but women venting as totally justified.

Anyway you are correct he is right about a lot.

[GirlsLie]

" Now I know a lot of you on GaG, especially the MRA air-heads and Feminist hot-heads, will find this hard to believe/understand, so I'm going to try my best and write this as simply as possible. Hopefully you can keep up."

Didn't make it past that.

[myTake Owner]

Oh boo hoo...

[GirlsLie]

Wouldn't expect any less.

[NatashaAnnJames]

You weren't the only one GirlsLie, neither did I. Think of all the time wasted writing that load of poop :)

[Watermelonoma]

lol, don't mind him. This is standard on GaG

[GirlsLie]

lol and he blocked, what a man child.

[andre98]

Here's the thing... you are stating your OPINION. The wage gap is fact, indisputable fact. Honestly, that so many people can just deny statistical evidence is astonishing. But first of all, you cite Wikipedia - don't get me wrong, I use Wikipedia for lots of PRELIMINARY research to get the idea of a topic, but it shouldn't be cited as direct factual evidence. The fact that you do cite Wikipedia makes me think that you have done very limited research on the subject, which thus makes me think that you have very limited knowledge on the topic- and if so, maybe you aren't the best person to claim to have debunked a shit-ton of evidence from studies conducted by highly educated people representing many prestigious institutions. I'm not sure what you have read about the subject, but until you read any kind of scholarly article about it, I wouldn't recommend trying to pass your opinion off as fact. You say that "what Wikipedia and many Feminist activists fail to include is that the gender pay gap relies totally on averages." An average is just that- an average. There will be instances where a woman makes more than a man, and there will be instances where a woman makes less than a man - but the data shows that it is far more frequent for a man to be making SIGNIFICANTLY more than a woman- for the exact same job, for the exact same work, with the exact same education from the same school in the same major. This is the kind of information taken into account when studies on the wage gap are being conducted. It is NOT a coincidence that women are paid less, which seems to be your assertion. I'd also encourage you to check out AAUW's website, which discusses the evidence. You ask for an explanation as to why your assertion has or has not changed my mind about whether the wage gap exists or not. Frankly, it doesn't matter what I think or believe, nor does it matter what any of us believe- that doesn't change the fact. The wage gap is fact; whether or not people doubt it doesn't alter that fact. But in order for anything to change, we at least need to be aware of the wage gap and acknowledge its existence, because it is necessary for us to remedy the situation for reasons that would positively affect both men and women.

[myTake Owner]

You sound like such a bigot omg...

[oracle12c]

So she lies then, and if so can you back it up with some evidence?

www.google.dk/url

[NatashaAnnJames]

Didn't get as far as the Wikipedia quoting, I gave up after the first paragraph. If I had seen that, I would have started laughing. :)

[Kirah]

The wage gap is not a fact.

The 77 cents on the dollar statistic is based on the average wage of a man, and the average wage of a woman. Because women usually go into lower-paying jobs themselves or do not negotiate salary as harshly, they make less on average. But in the same job, they earn just as much.

If employers could actually get away with paying women less, then why don't companies hire exclusively women?

Now please show me a reputable and peer-reviewed statistic that has not been debunked.

[nalaa]

Well it's not quite that easy.

Even within the same occupation, almost always men make more
www.americanprogress.org/.../
www.nytimes.com/.../...use-of-gender-not-jobs.html

Women earn less with the same degree as well and graduate jobs are where you would most expect things to be equal
www.theguardian.com/.../graduate-gender-pay-gap-university-subject

"Women who read medicine earned 9% less than men. And, out of those who studied physical sciences, women's wages were £3,626 lower. In education, there was a 4.3% gender pay gap"

Secondly some people say women makes less because they are more likely to take time off when they have a family, and while true, it's not fair to put that financial burden on women entirely. In times where divorce is common and alimony is highly debated how are we supposed to get by after a marriage?

[Fibbett]

Not only that, men are, on average, more work focused. They are more likely to work overtime, miss family events, ask for promotions, etc.

Women have been proven to want a more balanced life. So to want to get to spend more time with your family AND get paid as much as the guy who never gets to see his family is insane.

Furthermore, what evidence do we have that women and men are EXACTLY equally as effective at EVERY job? The truth is men are, on average of course, more capable in the STEM fields. These jobs pay more because they are in demand and require lots of education.

Women are, on average, better at jobs that involve caring and dealing with people and their problems. Did you know that back in the day, only women were allowed to be telephone operators? The reason given was that male operators kept getting into fights with the clients!

The point is, it's all about trade offs. Women have evolved for millions of years to be nurturers, and men have evolved to be workers. How could millions of years of evolution be undone in just a hundred years?

[Anonymous]

The tone of this take reminds me of people who don't actually know enough about what they're talking about to actually explain in a mature manner with credible sources, or children who are too emotionally volatile to explain things logically in a more emotionally balanced and calm tone. That's unfortunate, as the way you explain things matters more than what you actually say, in many cases.

Although, you're still incorrect, either way. No credible source has ever proven the gender gap debunked, although some have touched on some differences that contribute to the gender gap, aside from sexist discrimination (which still hasn't been completely disproven, especially not in societies where sexism is alive and well). Some things like men in certain circumstances have been found more likely to negotiate wages, but that still means there's a gap in the results. And if that means that we feminists have a responsibility to try to counter the kind of socialization that makes women less likely to negotiate, that's what we have to do. Because women are people too, and more likely to be in poverty in the first place, especially after divorce, so whatever contributes to the wage gap needs to be addressed.

[myTake Owner]

Here are some perfectly credible sources:

1) time.com/.../
2) www.theguardian.com/.../five-myths-about-unequal-pay
3) www.gov.uk/.../Analysis_of_the_Gender_Pay_Gap.pdf
4) www.ons.gov.uk/.../ashe1112.html
5) thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=hire_women

So there. 1) and 2) are the sources I used for in the MyTake... I should have cited it all, but it was meant to be a short take.

The rest were easily found by Google.

Women get more money out of divorce than men, so it's less likely for them to end up in poverty following one.

Have fun reading all of it, which I doubt you ever will.

[Opinion Owner]

Did you read the links you posted?

Your take asserts that there is no gender pay gap. You call it a myth.

The first article I clicked on (guardian) disagrees with your assertion that the gender pay gap is a myth, by asserting that one of the common myths is that it doesn't exist lmao. It goes on to explain some reasons why it exists, which is what I indicated as well.

So are you now agreeing with this source and saying that it does exist, and for these reasons?

Or do you want to come clean that you didn't actually read these sources?

[Opinion Owner]

"How depressing that we have to start with this one. And yet, needs must: a not-insignificant number of people don’t think the pay gap exists at all. These include Conservative Woman founder Laura Perrins, who appeared on Woman’s Hour with me last week and made this very argument.

Alas, there is a gender pay gap, and if the studies I’ve already quoted aren’t convincing enough, there’s always the extensive study from the UK government charting the changes in the pay gap over time (in short, it hasn’t gone away). Or why not listen to those Andrea Dworkins at the Confederation of British Industry, who recently urged the government to impose a target on reducing the gender pay gap. Yes, I’m afraid that outside of a small coterie of fanciful libertarians and determined anti-feminists, the existence of a gender pay gap is accepted fact."

So were your sources there to support your argument that it doesn't exist, or to help prove that you're wrong in asserting it to be a myth?

[Opinion Owner]

And did you seriously just argue that women are less likely to fall into poverty after divorce?

You're really ignorant, honey. Please do some real research. Not that confirmation bias mess where you look for what you think is true and people to agree with you, but actual data from credible sources.

[thedevilwithin]

Iwww.catalyst.org/.../womens-earnings-and-income

It's okay I live in Australia, and we have The Workplace Gender Equality Act.

It basically says that organizations have to conduct and report a gender pay gap analysis.
So according to this site, in 2013-2014, of the 24% of Australian companies performed the analysis, almost half (46%) of those that that performed the analysis then went on to take actions to address the gap.

Isn't that awesome! It means that the few places (it's only 24%) that don't pay everyone the same amount for the same job, are fixing it thanks to this Act.

I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere in the world, but i'm really happy that Australia has this sorted and this issue can be put to rest.

[myTake Owner]

"The weekly earnings gap between women and men was more than $298" and where was this 'gap' found? What company was it? or was it just a general gap they found while taking averages.

What. A. Fucking. Joke.

If that's the case, they should take a look at the gap in education... women are paid a lot more than men, because there are more women in that sector... DAMN THE PATRIARCHY looool

[myTake Owner]

OMG would you look at that!

"The gender pay gap is defined as the difference between the median earnings of women and men. This can be either the earnings ratio or the actual pay gap"

I rest my fucking case lol... shit website... shit facts! loooool

[Red_Arrow]

Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source to reference by itself, but it often has numerous links to worthy articles. But even if we accept Wikipedia as a reliable argument, the article pointed out that the figures commonly given are exaggerated because they refer to averages, but went on to agree that the gap exists with smaller numbers. In other words, you used an article that states the gap exists to prove it does not.

Then, you responded to an anonymous opinion with more links to prove your point, and she immediately pointed out that the second link argued against what you are saying and had figures to prove the gap. I grabbed another article and it went into examining the gap within common areas, such as within the same profession (say electrician) and found the gap even higher than the average.

So you seem to have done a good job of proving yourself wrong.

Congratulations.

[gotc147]

Women tend to take more time off work and are less likely to negotiate a higher salary too.

So in addition to women going into career fields that simply pay less than career fields men go into, those women who DO go into male - dominated fields will take home less than their male counterparts despite having the same salary as them.

If a man and a woman work at the same job for the same company and started on the same day with the same qualifications, and they work the same hours (as in, she doesn't take additional time off) and he didn't negotiate a higher salary, they will take home the same amount of money at the end of the year.

Feminists (and ignorant people) tend to ignore the many variables in things like this, nevermind admit that they're litterally comparing male surgeons to stay at home mothers.

[Curmudgeon]

THANK YOU. Over their lifetimes, women will average less. Children and all that. And a husband, if he is any good, will work harder once he has children. AND THIS IS GOOD.

How batshit insane for left femi (commu) nists to get upset about nature.

Does this mean women have to have children? No, some women are not cut out for it. But most are, and do wish them. Biology is what it is.

Does this mean women have to stay home and raise children? Hardly. See above. However, they *tend* to be more nurturing, and in the earliest stages they are literally more nurturing because they breast feed. Again, how batshit insane for left femi (commu) nists to get upset about nature.

Can men be nurturing? Of course, but they *tend* to be less so. And no, this is not a "social construct", this is reality.

[IdkImJustMe]

"Left femi (commu) nists" please explain the commu? Seriously

[Curmudgeon]

Their alleged "feminism" is just Marxist shakedown tactics repackaged.

[Anonymous]

Even if you had wrote this in a more polite way it wouldn't matter. It isn't what people have been brainwashed to believe so they won't believe it. If employers could pay women less, then men wouldn't be getting hired at all. Then men would have to work for whatever the employer offered which wouldn't be any higher than women. Employers are going to pay anyone, just as little as they can get away with regardless of gender. It is illegal to pay one gender more than the other, when they do the same job, with the same qualifications. Any company with that policy would be sued. This pretty much proves why the pay gap myth can not be true.

[Watermelonoma]

Already did a myTake on the matter

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a10912-understanding-anti-feminists-a-detailed-synopsis-for-feminists

I don't believe the gap is a total myth. But the problem isn't as big of a problem as feminists like to paint it, according to the actual evidence... which i provided in the take i wrote

[myTake Owner]

I'd rather you don't hijack my thread thanks.

[Watermelonoma]

relax, its not being "hijacked" lmao

[GirlsLie]

What thread lol, no one posted in it and you even had to make a question directing people to it and that didn't help either. It was just a bitchy little rant.

[myTake Owner]

I don't want anyone posting links to their own questions on here thank you.

[VampireEmpress]

I think it comes from women holding more lower paying jobs than men on avg. like I've read before women usually go for the degrees that are in the liberal arts. and the more serious degrees like engineering or medical are gone after by men. so men are paid more because their careers usually have higher salaries.

[VampireEmpress]

So I agree lol but I think the degrees are different.

[myTake Owner]

Of course you agree, because you're smart enough to read between the lines of Feminist rhetoric.

[VampireEmpress]

lol ty!

[Anonymous]

Mostly everyone commenting on this is incredibly biased. Stop looking at the WAY he wrote it and start looking at WHATS written. Maybe you'll actually learn something *gasp*

[GirlsLie]

How do you know I don't already agree with him and that there is something for me to "learn" from him.

[9mfeo]

If you could have written this without the antagonistic tone (like @Watermelonoma has done in the past), I would be able to take you seriously.

[myTake Owner]

It's a satarical tone... Sad you haven't looked past the satire to the argument...

[9mfeo]

No, honey, that's not a satirical tone. That's just antagonistic. Work on your persuasive writing, because it's lacking.

[myTake Owner]

I have exagerated almost everything I have said, whilst having a very strong argument... so yes, it's satarical :)

[myTake Owner]

And please, don't patronise people who have a different opinion as yours... it makes you sound like a bigot and an idiot :*

[Watermelonoma]

im starting to see why the site admins rarely choose guys to be editors on here lol.

[myTake Owner]

Because the admins are sexist... DAMN THE PATRIARCHY.

[LittleSally]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4l0zvcDixo

Iiiii don't think so...

[myTake Owner]

No sources to back her claim AT ALL... yeah... great video lol

[LittleSally]

Hahaha Think what you like. =)

[myTake Owner]

It just seems to me like another FKH8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqHYzYn3WZw) saga, albeit more entertaining and mature...

No substance and no backbone to it whatsoever.

[jjmarvin]

I have no idea what to believe honestly because everyone who has ever talked about it has had something bitter or sexist to say.

I'm always open to the possibility that someone is getting fucked over, and I'm also always open to the possibility of everyone being completely full of shit.

[DarkHumorRUs]

Don't they usually argue that women and men with the same exact job position get paid different amounts?

[Gommers]

They do, but the people that do that are completely wrong. Where the numbers show that men make more than women (which if you look at the true wage numbers is inverse) it's that women take entry level jobs more often, change jobs more, take more time off, get pregnant, take maternity leave, come back to work and burn themselves out professionally by their early 30s. Men work for about 20-30 years [in their profession starting in their mid to late 20s] usually and in the time they get promotions or change jobs to better pay rates eventually getting to the point point of making really good money. Women on the other hand have two very different groups though, again those that work until their early 30s and become housewives or only work part time to help with the bills and those who are professionals and have been in their field for the same amount of time as men. All of these numbers are factored into try and claim that women make less, when really they're granted more freedom at work.

[ArtDent]

Actually there is a pay gap.
Young childless women earn more than young childless men.

What happens next is women have babies and drop out of the workforce and sideline their careers and men have children and begin to take their career seriously in order to provide for those kids.

The average reflects those realities.

Want to earn more than men? Don't have kids.

[cipher42]

Yeah, no. The gender pay gap is well established through very thorough studies. No bullshit, misinformed take is gonna change that. blogs.discovermagazine.com/.../#.Ve_5U4pHanM

[Kirah]

There is no pay gap.

https://imgur.com/gallery/rVFkj0p

[Kirah]

In fact, childless women aged 20-29 outearn childless men aged 20-29! How's that for a pay gap?

[myTake Owner]

It's laughable that @Cipher42 showed me a blog to "prove" there was a gender pay gap.

I want FACT, not presumption.

[cipher42]

@kirah: ah yes. An infographic on imgur. Such an incredibly respectable source. Did you literally just not read the link I provided?

@mytakeowner: and you, did you also not read it? The blog cites a source right there, and provides plenty of information about the actual study and how it was done, unlike that girl's info graphic.

[myTake Owner]

I could literally post a YouTube video including sources proving that the imgur chart is 100% fact. And please, have some respect.

[cipher42]

A youtube video also is not the most credible of sources. Try an actual study maybe. And how on earth do you refute the study I posted? No one's addressed that yet.

[Kirah]

@cipher42 yeah, because your blog that has no sources at all is somehow better. Alright then!

If you're going to demand reputable sources, then provide one yourself.

If people could actually get away with paying women that much less, then why don't companies hire exclusively women?

[cipher42]

@kirah: so what you're saying is that no, you did not actually read the study I linked. Because if you had, you would have noticed the source right there in the second paragraph. Unless you want to actually read what I linked and respond to it reasonably, I don't think you're worth my time, and if you respond once more without doing so I am going to block you.

[Kirah]

@cipher42 threatening with blocking me isn't exactly healthy discussion behavior. Are you even looking for a discussion, or do you just want to shout "muh sojiny" because some butthurt red-haired lesbian like Chanty Binx doesn't understand how sociology works?

Suit yourself.

[cipher42]

@kirah: child, I'm giving you a chance. I don't waste my time with people who refuse to argue the actual point. What you are doing is deliberately ignoring the evidence I'm providing, and that's not something I'm willing to deal with. Because I'm ever so nice, you get one more chance. Im interested to see if you're actually capable of making a proper argument, or if you just argue via sidestepping and refusing to properly respond. So, will you show me that you have any capability to defend your beliefs at all? Or will you show me that you are a immature, close minded person who is incapable of actually making an argument defending your beliefs, and thus not someone I should waste my time with?

[myTake Owner]

Annnnnd that's where this intellectual debate ends: as soon as you call someone a 'child' who not only is older than you, but has been kind and respectful of your own opinions... @Cipher42. Grow up you bimbo.

[cipher42]

That's just how I talk. It's a word I use, regardless of age. If you are honestly relying on nitpicking my speech patterns to "win" the debate, that just shows you're no more intellectually capable than the girl trying trying to "win" by avoiding having to actually address the facts provided in my source via making untrue statements about it. Honestly, the both of you are only convincing me all the more that those who deny the gender pay gap are intentionally ignoring truths that are right in front of their noses.

[myTake Owner]

Well you've repeatedly proven that you're the living and breathing definition of hypocrisy and bigotry... Good day, child 😂😂

[cipher42]

And yet you are still incapable of answering the evidence I have given. Somehow, I'm really not inclined to give a single shit about what you think, being as you are apparently incapable of using actual reasoning to support your claims.

[myTake Owner]

Who says I need to "answer your evidence"? Lol... You're a bigot through and through. You get all hostile when someone doesn't give you a source, but when you give a pathetic blog about it all you're all in uproar when someone proves you wrong. Not less that you're really arrogant.

How about we agree to disagree like fucking adults, euh?

[cipher42]

If you wanted to actually prove your argument has any merit, as is implied by the fact that you wrote a whole mytake about it, I think you would need to actually be able to provide evidence to prove the counter arguments wrong. But you evidently are unable to, and consequently you've proven your argument to be weak and flawed, and thus shown your entire mytake to be not worth taking seriously.

[chico800]

A lot of this is due to women taking time off of work to raise children. And some jobs are treated as being the same when they're actually different. For instance, male physicians, as a whole, are paid more than women physicians. But that's because surgeons are the highest-paid physicians, and most surgeons are men. Of course a surgeon is going to be paid more than the doctor who you take your kid to when she has the flu. So people aren't making valid comparisons here.

[Bandit74]

this video does a good job at explaining it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM