Where Men AND Women Are Going Wrong About The Whole 'Nice Guy' Thing

[Anonymous]

Most of us have heard the typical feminist narrative on the internet phenomena 'nice guy':

- he's not that nice

- he's only pretending to be nice to get into your knickers

- he isn't assertive

- he isn't attractive

- he does not have anything much going for him, so he falls back on his niceness

The irony here could not be richer: these women (and sometimes men) have nothing but contempt for the idea that there is such a thing as a 'nice guy'. This concept is based on all kinds of stereotyped generalisations - and they are correct. Nobody is all nice, or all bad; niceness is not a substitute for what else you have to offer to society; what is considered 'nice' to one person might be considered 'not so nice' to another; etc., etc.

But the feminist narrative is just substituting one set of stereotypes for another. What's worse is that the pathetic, whiny beta males that promote these false ideas are typically the men setting themselves up to be the targets of such feminist attacks on the nice guy.

Women are right:

- nice guys DO need something else going for them

- nice guys are NOT entitled to sex

- nice guys should NOT emotionally blackmail women into sex or relationships by virtue of their niceness

But feminists are also very conveniently ignoring some very crucial aspects:

- not all of these men are declaring themselves 'nice guys'

- not all of them believe women are obligated to give them sex or relationships

- not all men failing to be successful with women have nothing else going for them (attractiveness, interests, ambition, etc.)

- not all men failing to be successful are chasing women way above their league

- not all men failing to be successful with women worm their way into the 'friendzone' then spend months or years trying to deceive their way into a relationship

- sometimes men are justified in pointing out that the WRONG kind of guy has all the success with women while they have none

Now I hate being yet another GAG user doing a take on 'nice guys' but in face of all of these misconceptions being hurled around - and the damage that they do - I think the record on nice guys needs to be set straight once and for all (it's so ironic that these feminists think that's the job THEY are doing when they are doing precisely the opposite). You see these arguments promoted on GAG. e.g. in one mytake detailing the 'irony' about nice guys, the author used some of the following arguments:

- they bring up their angelic nature in a negative context (i.e. to emotionally blackmail the woman being pursued)

- in one of her memes, the caption stated that nice guys are 'socially retarded, unassertive, uninteresting, unfunny and mealy mouthed internet sex addict whot thinks just being nice entitles you to sex'

- 'self-centred'

- 'just using the fact that they're nice not to make positive changes' read another meme

- 'when they say "nice guys finish last", it's because they are going after a woman who's not interested in them" - as paraphrased in the user's last but one meme

Another girl explain the 'real reasons' that 'nice guys finish last' was as follows:

'the reason we tend to friendzone the extremely nice guys is because some of you are just too bland'

An internet article has these as '7 lies "Nice Guys" Will Tell You':

- You Owe 'Nice Guys' a Chance

- ‘Nice Guys Finish Last – Because Women Like Bad Boys’

- ‘Nice Guys Get Stuck in the Friend Zone’

- ‘Nice Guys Are Rare Gems’

- ‘Nice Guys Are Nice for Even Noticing You’

- ‘Practicing Basic Human Decency Makes Me a Nice Guy’

- ‘Nice Guys Are Nice’

You can see then that it's abundantly clear that feminists are circulating these myths and gross generalisations about nice guys on GAG and elsewhere on the internet. I honestly don't have the time to delve into the reasons why these are all wrong in detail but hopefully the crucial aspects I covered about why most of the feminist narrative about nice guys are false generalisations will suffice.

So where are MEN going wrong with this plethora of confused stereotypes and generalisations? Simple: they are giving feminists fuel to keep on burning the fire.

- by putting emphasis on their 'niceness' as the reason for their failure, self-professed nice guys help create the illusion that nice guys have nothing else going for them in general

- by phrasing their complaints in such a way that makes it sound like the world owes them, self-professed nice guys are feeding into the stereotype that they are all self-entitled whiny beta males

Let's look at some of the MEN'S nice guy takes and questions on GAG:

'I am sick and tired of being nice. Nice gets you cheated on, nice gets you friendzoned. Nice gets you cheated on. Nice gets you lied to. Nice gets you an eternity of lonliness... I want to be the asshole all women want. Teach me.'

Another guy asked:

'For girls who wonder why its hard to find a nice guy who doesn't play games, do you know guys do that because most girls respond to it better? Like he'll be hot and cold, one time hell be texting you a lot then just not text back, or hell playfully tease you instead of just being nice and caring only. there's guys that dont act nice and just playfully mess with girls, etc'

Somebody else was looking for advice:

'I am tired of being the "nice guy" i want to be the thing girl's want because obviously being a nice person to achieve ur goals is a one way ticket to loser-ville and im not about to become one i haven't had a girlfriend in over a year and have been rejected quite a few times. Im done playing nice I want to be rhe jerk every girl falls for then i might go nice but im done playing soft and cuddly cuz girls dont fucking respect nice guys or even acknowledge them in that fact. Tell me what i need to do to get a girlfriend and the "be yourself " tip isn't anything but pure bullshit'

I only have this to say for such posts:

Again, you can see how all of this is feeding into the feminist narrative. And by bitching about how things are unfair (because let's face it, things ARE unfair for this kind of man), they are making things worse, not better. Not saying that's good, not saying it's bad - it just is what it is:

- women want to be approached

- women want to be pampered

- women want to play 'games' and expect men to react to all of this psychological bullshit with pure confidence

- women want excitement from men (and they don't necessarily care by what means they get it) - even if the guy has plenty of other positive attributes

In short, 'nice guys' are giving women the weapons and women are using them. Men should be confident and attractive but women should look for more than just this in a man, otherwise she is shallow and setting herself up to be abused - emotionally and possibly even physically. Women should not buy into the feminist narrative on 'nice guys' - which is entirely based on false premises - but some men are also to blame for feeding into these stereotypes with their words AND actions.

[lumos]

It seems like you don't get that there's a difference between "nice guys" (notice the quotation marks) and nice guys/good guys. When feminists, like myself, talk about "nice guys", we don't mean actual good guys. There's a difference, and that difference is exactly the fact that "nice guys" are nice because they're expecting sex, or other favors. And when they get turned down, they harass the women who rejected them. Hence the quotation marks. These guys are fake. Their niceness is fake. That's why ByeFelipe is such a widespread online phenomenon, because these "nice guys" make a fool out of themselves by being hypocritical and extreme.
I know that there are good guys out there. I know that they aren't nice because they're expecting something out of it. I don't generalize. Lots of other feminists know that, too. So when feminists talk about "nice guys", they don't mean EVERY guy on the planet who isn't a douche. No, they talk about a specific type of guy who's not very nice at all, and has nothing in common with actual good guys. They recognize the difference.
If anything you're the one here who's generalizing feminists and also women in general.
"women want to play 'games' and expect men to react to all of this psychological bullshit with pure confidence"
Lol.

[myTake Owner]

I get that there is a difference between the two but the usage is often blurred over and when guys are complaining that they are:

- genuinely nice
- attractive
- assertive

but still by and large being shunned by women, a lot of feminists will revert to their "nice guy" shaming tacks. It doesn't matter that he IS a genuinely good guy, that he DOESN'T try to date women outside his league, that he DOES have other things going for him in his life. most girls (and some men) will just say the same generic old bull that does not help.

[lumos]

Ehhh lol literally never encountered what you're claiming is happening. Seems to me like something you've made up.

[myTake Owner]

well, maybe that's the whole point. there is little or no advice for this type of man I just described but heaps upon heaps of generic "nice guy" shaming plugs being rehashed in different shapes and forms.

[lumos]

But if the good guy is truly a good guy then obviously the "nice guy" shaming posts don't apply to him? I don't really understand what you're trying to say/prove here.

[myTake Owner]

ok, let's say you are all those things I mentioned (genuinely nice, attractive and assertive) you go online to ask for advice about where you are going wrong and you say,

"hey, I like to think I am a nice enough guy, I am of above average attractiveness and I always go for what I want (asking girls out, etc.), so why don't girls like me"

then the response to this is,

"why do you think you're so nice?"

"the world doesn't owe you just because you're nice"

"grow a pair"

"stop trying to weasel your way past the friendzone"

etc., etc.

Can you see how this would be problematic advice for our theoretical nice guy?

[lumos]

But see, that sounds more like a self-proclaimed "nice guy" who's just whining about not automatically getting a girlfriend for being nice/attractive/assertive. If you really are all those things, then you'll have a different perspective. You won't ask people why they don't like you, you will ask them if there's something you could improve on or do differently. Saying "but I'm nice/attractive" just reeks of self-entitlement and shows that you think you're so perfect that there's absolutely nothing about you that you could/would ever change. That the problem is obviously is with the girls, because like he said, "WHY don't THEY like me?". Someone who's truly nice won't think of it that way and would want to take a different approach, and not make everything about themselves.

[myTake Owner]

'that sounds more like a self-proclaimed "nice guy" who's just whining about not automatically getting a girlfriend for being nice/attractive/assertive.'

well, this would be another example of where nice guy assumptions come into play - ie. g. anybody that refers to themselves as a "nice guy" is just somebody that is whining about how things are unfair and thinks that they are entitled.

also, about complaining how things are unfair. sure we all have to adapt to the way things are but I think there are plenty of valid criticisms men have about the way the dating world is set up - e. g. that you are often expected to buy things for women, that you are expected to do most of the chasing, and you have to do all this without coming across needy or whatever. pointing these things out doesn't mean that you think you are entitled to sex or whatever. I definitely don't think these men deserve the same old generic advice that women give to "nice guys".

[myTake Owner]

'You won't ask people why they don't like you, you will ask them if there's something you could improve on or do differently. '

Sure but language has it's limitations - e. g. how you are showing examples in my own language where a nice guy could be seen as not such a nice guy. so people will sometimes just say things like,

"I'm a nice guy, why can't I get girls to like me"

Instead of say,

"I'm an assertive man with attractive qualities and a good personality, what can I do to improve my success with women and why do women always expect men to do most of the chasing?"

That's because the way the latter is phrased is long, verbose, and actually takes a great deal of emotional self-awareness to pull apart the thoughts and feelings in the brain that tell you when you are "owed something" as opposed to the intuitions and notions that "something is not right" and it isn't necessarily your fault.

[lumos]

It's not just that he said that he was nice that makes him seem like a "nice guy", it's the fact that he's wondering why girls aren't interested in him DESPITE being "nice" and attractive, as if that's all it takes to get a girl. So it's not an assumption at all, it's literally logic.
I also never said anything about complaining about how the dating world can be unfair, so I'm not sure why you brought that up or why you even think that's the same as whining about not getting a girl despite you thinking highly of yourself.
This is not a language issue. Again I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up. You don't need an IQ of 130 to be able to ask people if there's something you could do differently. You don't need an IQ of 130 to prohibit yourself from going on and on about your so-called amazing qualities.

[myTake Owner]

I think we can probably agree that there are two different types of people.

1. somebody (male or female) that has attributes commonly considered 'positive', 'attractive', 'good partner material'' wondering why they are not successful and what it is about the dating world that frustrates their attempts.

2. a stereotypical 'nice guy' / 'nice girl' cartoon that says things like, "gee I am so good at buying flowers / baking cakes, why does nobody like me? I know, it is because all girls love arseholes / all guys love bitches."

The first type is a real human being, the latter is by and large an internet phenomena and often used as a shaming tactic to shut people down when they are trying to get their voices heard.

[myTake Owner]

'that he's wondering why girls aren't interested in him DESPITE being "nice" and attractive, as if that's all it takes to get a girl.'

I'm operating on the assumption that looks and personality are the two main factors conducive to attraction, yes. All the same, this fictional nice guy might not necessarily think that that is all - he is just using that as a starting point.

'This is not a language issue. Again I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up.'

Because you were criticising the fictional nice guy for asking why girls don't like him, as if he is suffering entitlement or whatever. I explained that there are other, more complicated, ways to express one's dissatisfaction but that not everyone would want to do so.

[Dim_121]

The problem with nice guys myself included is that your becoming their friend and then waiting for them to see the best in you. The best way to fix that is to be assertive. Within the first several times of seeing a girl that you like flirt with her at lest once so she knows that your attracted to her. When a women knows that your attracted to them they treat you differently and think about you differently. In other words you don't instantly end up in the freindzone because she knows that you are a potential date.
Nice guys be assertive risk it and tell her that she is lovely.

[myTake Owner]

'The problem with nice guys myself included is that your becoming their friend and then waiting for them to see the best in you.'

Not all nice guys want to stick around being strung along like a puppet. And not all nice guys who take other routes are being successful.

[Eric644]

what Dim-121 is trying to get accross is that many nice guys are soft spoken and not assertive, if you are tired of the jerk always getting the girl, well grow a pair and start acting more confident

[Dim_121]

@Eric644 Thanks Eric664

[Cookies_AndMilk]

I think I need to write a take on nice guys and the "friendzone."

[myTake Owner]

yes, I would look forwards to it :)

[Cookies_AndMilk]

Why thank you. :)

[myTake Owner]

like I said to Lumos, if a genuinely nice, attractive and assertive guy goes online to ask for advice about where he is going wrong, etc. most people just say things like,

"why do you think you're so nice?"

"the world doesn't owe you just because you're nice"

"grow a pair"

"stop trying to weasel your way past the friendzone"

etc.

so the internet needs more articles that counter this wave of "nice guy" shaming tacks that have corrupted modern day dating advice.

[Sixgun77]

Yes. Another (probably unrelated) problem is that for those of us who are regularly called creepy or scary by women we approach, is that they never tell us WHY we're creepy and scary. Then the women that ARE in our lives (friends, family) have no idea why puerile Who don't know is think we're scary. So we don't know what it is we're supposed to fix, even though we try to find out.

[Eric644]

@Sixgun77 they call you creepy because they aren't attracted to you. Creepy is just codeword for "guy isn't hot, i'll just treat him like shit". When i use to be unattractive, i got that word, but now that i'm good looking from getting in shape, no girl calls me that anymore, coincidence. I have a problem with the term creeper because it dehumanizes a person based on their looks. If you are attractive, you get respect, but if you are not attractive, you get treated like a subhuman.

[myTake Owner]

@Eric644 ' they call you creepy because they aren't attracted to you. '

Please re-read the original take, I feel that you have misunderstood it on a fundamental level.

[Eric644]

what, it's true

[myTake Owner]

@Eric644

No it's not true, because some of the nice guys that get rejected could be considered 'attractive' - a subjective term, but nonetheless has its relevancy because people commonly consider certain attributes 'attractive' and some women will find a guy 'attractive' but not want to sleep with him for different reasons (e. g. not confident enough is a big one).

[Eric644]

that too, sometimes the nice guy who finally gets the courage to talk to a woman may rub her off the wrong way because he is being too polite and not displaying a confident attitude. But in most cases, it describes an unattractive male who approaches a female. That female may think "how dare this ugly man even speak to me, ill just dehumanize him and call him a creep"

[myTake Owner]

@Eric644

'But in most cases... '

This is not an assumption you should be making.

[Zrelthrhaiel]

Nice guys are good for society let the bitches go their own way I'd rather wait for sexbots and artificial womb.

[myTake Owner]

just a shame the genuine nice guys have to resort to these measures.

[joeb73]

to me a " nice guy" doesn't think he is. he's told that by people around him

[myTake Owner]

sure, but that doesn't really change my point.

[joeb73]

yes it does. because if it was true i wouldn't have been told by a lot of people i'm a nice guy, i never thought i was just trying to be considerate to others. and if you were right then i wouldn't have been married when i was 20 and have had a long loving relationship for over 20 years.
for some ladys they have to mature to realize that the thing they are attracted to in there teens and early 20 isn't something they want when they want to settle down and have a family. some times the proclaimed "nice guy " actually pushes people away by comeing on to strong and scaring someone. or they dont come on strong enough to show they are actually interested in someone.
i think #justbanANNAz had a good take on this
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a25968-it-s-not-about-you-love-them-the-way-they-want-to-be-loved

[myTake Owner]

confident people have never been afraid to promote themselves and their positive attributes. they can do this without being cocky (bragging) or trying to get some sort of advantageous leverage (manipulation). whether a nice person would 'sell himself' (and nice people certainly SHOULD sell themselves if they want to be remotely successful at anything) depends on how confident they are.

but all of that is still besides the point. whether or not this is a self-identified nice guy pointing out the colossally huge shit that is the dating world or a non self-identified nice guy doing the job for him, the point remains the same (the state of the current dating world is a colossally huge shit).

[myTake Owner]

'if you were right then i wouldn't have been married when i was 20 and have had a long loving relationship for over 20 years.'

or you were just an exception to the rule.

'for some ladys they have to mature to realize that the thing they are attracted to in there teens and early 20 isn't something they want when they want to settle down'

and how do you think these virgin or inexperienced nice guys are going to respond towards these women that have shunned them, slept around and used nice guy shaming tacks when they were younger but all of a sudden want to 'settle down'.

[myTake Owner]

'i think #justbanANNAz had a good take on this'

I get the picture: go for the right kind of girl. It's just that it gets a little tricky when there aren't many of them out there.

[joeb73]

yes it tricky but they are out there

[myTake Owner]

well, you didn't really respond to my other points but, ok - I'm sure nice guys will be thrilled to be having fun looking for that one needle in the haystack.

[joeb73]

thats how it is looking for a needle in the hay stack. for a long lasting relationship to last and succeed. take work, and understand. you dont always find that in someone in your normal people you interact with during the day. go and do things out side your norm. like take a cooking class go to a museum, take a pottery class, etc. the things you see as not manly to do is were ladys usually go. it opens up hay stacks in places you never thought of.

[myTake Owner]

And what about the guys already doing that stuff?

[joeb73]

then i would take a close look at your self. and see how you come across to others. i know it sounds counter productive but if there is a female that you talk to sometimes. in school at work it has to be someone you trust. just ask them how do people preserve me. some times other might see you as desperate, pushy or just creepy with out meaning it.
when you ask the female. start out with i know i'm not your type and i'm not asking for a date or anything but could you please answer a question honestly for me. then ask her for her opinion.

[myTake Owner]

'start out with i know i'm not your type and i'm not asking for a date or anything but could you please answer a question honestly for me.'

no offense man, but that is absolutely terrible advice. you never approach somebody with the assumption that they are not already interested, especially not if you are going to begin telling them how you are probably not their type - that's totally uncharismatic and helps puts the thought in their head that you are not their type.

asking feedback if you have already gone wrong is a bit different though.

'some times other might see you as desperate, pushy or just creepy with out meaning it.'

people that make these assumptions without knowing you properly are not worth your time.

[ColinHarvey]

media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarqNXT5lp6Wf1sc/200w.gif

[Applefan1]

Cool take. I agree with most of this. However, there is some stuff I don't agree with.

[myTake Owner]

I think I can guess what it is you disagree with, however I will leave it for you to elaborate.

[BlackSatanicDeath]

Women have to choose partners more carefully due to the extreme trials of childbearing and thus have developed certain defenses; feminism being an evolution of one of these defenses.

[myTake Owner]

What does this have to do with my take?

[Anonymous]

You don't understand what feminism is at all.

[ColinHarvey]

Write us a definition because I can't seem to find anyone in the world who does.

[Opinion Owner]

@ColinHarvey Feminism is about wanting equal rights and protection for both genders. Feminism is not about women being treated better than men, or being given things just because they have a uterus. I don't disagree with your argument; I disagree with your use of this term.

[ColinHarvey]

I don't use feminism, I use white knight, because a lot like the KKK, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of opinion diversity amongst you. When your logic is questioned, your only answer is, "you don't understand it."

I've never in my life seen a feminist group outside a prison calling for an end to make prison rape, or outside the DOE protesting the education of young boys at female standards, or ending the favoritism of the mother in custody rights.

So it isn't about equal rights for both genders, is it?

[Opinion Owner]

@ColinHarvey You just compared feminism to the KKK. I have nothing more to say. Your ignorance speaks for itself.

[myTake Owner]

'Feminism is about wanting equal rights and protection for both genders. Feminism is not about women being treated better than men, or being given things just because they have a uterus. I don't disagree with your argument; I disagree with your use of this term.'

Sure, but "feminism" is a term that needs to be understood in the relevant context, whether it's socioeconomic (wanting more jobs, equal pay, etc.), dating (wanting women to be treated with respect by men) or something else. Sometimes this means the fight for greater privileges and liberties for women treads on the need for certain privileges and liberties as a man.

[Opinion Owner]

Not sure where feminism wants to tread anywhere on men's rights or privileges

[myTake Owner]

well there are socioeconomic instances but since this thread is focused on dating, I will stick to those circumstances.

examples would be the ones I already emphasised

'- women want to be approached
- women want to be pampered
- women want to play 'games' and expect men to react to all of this psychological bullshit with pure confidence
- women want excitement from men (and they don't necessarily care by what means they get it) - even if the guy has plenty of other positive attributes'

you might not call that feminism but a lot of the time so-called feminists with double standards will conflate these as examples of what the guy ought to be doing in order to show his respect or something.

I uploaded a picture to emphasise this point of hypocrisy where (some) feminists stand in terms of dating privileges for women combined with socioeconomic privileges:

cf.girlsaskguys.com/.../...6-a65f-0112cc103015.jpg

[Opinion Owner]

I don't believe in double standard feminism. Respect is a two way street. It's nice to be approached, but I approached my boyfriend first. I pamper him and he pampers me. We take turns paying. I know someone who has a job unloading packages and I know I can't get that job because I can't lift as much as he does. As I said before, you have a good argument here but your use of the word "feminist" just taints the whole thing.

[myTake Owner]

ok, well I can understand your issue here, although personally I choose to identify with the term 'egalitarian' or 'equalitarian' because 'feminism' is something that has it's roots in the latin term 'femina' meaning women. This means that etymologically speaking, while 'egalitarianism' is already stressing the importance on equal rights, 'feminism' is a term that shifts the focus onto women's rights.

[Opinion Owner]

I do like both terms. I like the term "feminism" specifically because it's against the patriarchy that narrowly defines our gender roles. It's okay for men to have and express "feminine" qualities.

[myTake Owner]

well feminism is against the 'patriarchy' but it is debatable to what extent we still have a patriarchy since women have made much progress in the liberties and privileges they have gained over the 20th century (socioeconomically). when we are talking about feminism in the dating world, we can see that women have lots of power over men who, like I said, are expected to be initiators and providers, so one wonders why there is need for feminism in this respect particularly. when self-proclaimed feminists begin the nice guy-shaming rhetoric I call them out and point out some of the advantages women do have.

[Careless_Whisper]

feminism is a hate group and is full of hypocrites