My take on Involuntary Celibacy

[Jjpayne]

So this idea and term seems to have gone off in many different ways. But I am here to simply address the term in the way that I see it. But before I do that I feel the need to go over somethings first.

Just so we can get our facts straight,
According to google, "The term "involuntary celibate" (shortened to "incel") refers to self-identifying members of an online subculture based around the inability to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, a state they describe as "inceldom" or "incelibacy"."

What that means is simply "the inability to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one"

Wait what!? Romantic! Or! Not all Incels want a sexual partner!?

Why am I pointing this out?

"If you say you are “involuntary celibate” it sounds like “everybody’s fucking
and I want to fuck. I deserve to fuck.”

I have found at least one other but for the sake of this point I will leave it at that. This google definition at least to me makes clear that romance can be a key thing that is looked for.

I think three other quotes seem to fit together nicely as well.

"Wait a minute... I honestly thought Incels hated women. Why would they want to attract us if they clearly don’t like us?"

To which the reply was.

"No incel is a person who Has lost all Hope that he can have a sex/romantic life."

The next quote is from someone that is very smart and she has challenged me on quite a few things and this opinion from her was worth mentioning.

"Yeah, the term “incel” has adopted a really negative connotation as of late
because of the vocal minority in the community who are actually incredibly
toxic and do have a deep hatred for women and often voice their extreme
disdain for them. The quieter majority of incels are actually... they’re lonely men."

I have another quote trail I would like to follow. Mainly addresses if girls can be Incels.

"women can't be incel?"

To which two interesting comments were said.

"I've been involuntary celibate for almost four years and counting for the
simple fact I can't morally be intimate with someone unless i feel
something towards them."

That was a girl which shows that not only girls are incels but they are looking for romance as well.

"A woman invented the word so yes there are women incels."

and coincidentally that was also a girl.

Now there is even an uglier place that this has taken in addition.

Of some what I believe to be hurtful comments. As I believe that all people have a natural beauty and all people are important. It makes me sad to think that is nose job is needed for love.

"If you identify as an incel you have severe entitlement issues and are def a psycho. Idc if those people die or are unhappy, sorry."

That is not the beauty part just yet but it shows that incel is a dirty view and really that people have gotten to the place of a lack of concern for them. But it does make me want to follow up with this quote.

"I personally don’t feel that any outreach programs should be applicable to them
because there are more serious issues out there that men need help with."

I am going to take a radical stance on this to say, that while outreach is extreme, but is there a response to this occurring? How many incels are out there and why are they like that? I argue to say that not all look terrible or have bad personalities.

"Attraction is subjective. Otherwise most women would go after those 20 percent
since we all thought they were the same."

But still, while attraction is important, do incels deserve to stay incels?

"Sorry that natural selection doesn’t choose some men but that’s how it works."

And because they are unattractive incels have been naturally chosen to be with nobody the rest of their life? Please tell me, that is not what everyone thinks.

"There’s something about them that turns people away."

It's ideas like this that might make some sort of approach to help people like this.

Seeing things like this make me very happy.

How To Be Happy And Healthy As An Involuntary Celibate

Why can't there be support from people or advice offered? Instead of shaming them or casting them aside why can't we choose to help them? Given we are all on the same journey and have been waiting ourselves but to have a way to find love in a reasonable way instead of putting a hook in a huge ocean and waiting baitless for a fish. Why not have an approach that works or helps people.

Picture from Meme Generator

I had a spiritual background as a kid and still do. I remember in high school praying please let me find someone I don't want to be alone. But that thought transferred into, what if girls will not want me if I have no job, no income and live with my parents while in my 20s? So I have been trying to make something of my life that has been 10 years too late... During that time I kept hopeful and waited. I went out of the house regularly and went to fun events and nobody reached out and I felt too anxious and scared to approach girls because I did not want to offend them, make them feel uncomfortable or get turned down. I was told by my friend don't approach girls in the church because they are not here to date, don't scare them away for feeling like that. But slowly I noticed girls that attended were slowly being dated then married. In my 20s I waited for simple attraction to happen naturally and my job security has been a very long and strange journey for me which is something that many are not used to.

But all that to say, I actively reached out on dating sites starting at 30 starting with Christian Mingle. I got barely anything, one girl talked with me briefly via text then ghosted me after that. One girl! Only one girl had any interest in contacting me back.

I recently tried plenty of fish and thankfully I found one girl that liked me enough to date me. I ended up leaving because I felt that while we connected in some ways I could see some disagreements that even in the dating honeymoon period that could become issues in the future and besides that was one and only official dating in my life. I did have a couple of moments in high school. One was meeting in a library and the other had more a feeling of friendship. So overall no real romantic experience until last year where I had my first romantic kiss.

After Christian mingle, I just wanted to have girls acknowledge that I existed, that my presence was here in the world. And I found girls ask guys.

Overall, my definition of Involuntary Celibacy, is making the effort to wanting to be in a relationship and being met with nothing to show for it. Am I bitter? I kind of am. Not having a single girl even let me talk and just swipe left, it's kind of painful to think about. It does also sadden me to think that guys like myself have such a good relationship on here but aside from family and friends have no romantic existence in the real world.

My heart goes out to people like that. Those who honestly try and just have people push them away. Those that are nice people, good people that are simply looking for companionship.

That's my feelings in a nutshell. Does incel and Involuntary Celibacy mean the same thing to you? I am eager to hear your thoughts on this.

[NerdInDenial]

If you are not rich, the next step is to get in really good shape. Having a good body will generally mean you will have the best facial version of yourself resulting in more opportunities for attraction. However, even the best Pickup Artists have to talk to at least 20 women to get five women interested. Thus, rejection is part of the game.

[Bluemax]

Quite right.

[Physics-Man]

Roger that Sir.

[whatisaname]

Not trying to imply that this is the problem with the people discussed in this article. I realize that there are people out there not as fortunate as I have been, but wanted to reply to your post in case this helps some struggling guy who thinks he fits into this group. The best years of my dating life came once I finally realized this truth, well this and that I needed confidence as well. For those just in a rut, you must have confidence, don't be a snob, but just believe that you're good enough to date these chicks, and realize that you're going to be rejected. It's part of it, and with some girls, it will hurt pretty bad because you do like them so much, but you don't just dwell on that. You pick yourself back up, and ask the next one. Hopefully in some way this helps those that are actually part of this group as well. Honestly, the confidence thing would probably help since confidence must have been destroyed to even get to this point. Forgive my ignorance, and I truly do wish you all the best of luck.

[Robertcw]

Actually I think cardio makes a better face. Bulking generally adds fat which reduces facial aesthetics, but does improve the looks of the body.

I prefer to be strong over lean, so I tolerate some body fat. I stay below 18% though. I try to just keep my abs visible. Not defined, but visible.

This allows me to bulk on the arms, chest and shoulders and I personally like that.

Gwtting really lean takes years off your face and temporarily looks really good. But eventually any remaining muscle is going to be broken down and absorbed for calories, leading to a bad end result.

[EABsTUQ]

The PUA stuff probably is right but the difference is that those 5 won't flake on them as much as it would for an inexperienced guy.

[CarpetDenim]

Tbh this is one of the first mytakes you’ve wrote that actually speaks to me and that I more or less 100% agree with. I would write a more in-depth opinion on it but I just finished writing like 2 giant paragraphs in a response to that thread you quoted here and I’m kinda worn out of incel analysis for today lmao.

[Jjpayne]

Thank you! Coming from you it's an honor

[WhistleForTheChoir]

I've never cared about sex, only romance. The irony became that while I'm not "celibate", I've never had a romantic relationship. Just had sex with the few women who would give me a chance, but were hung up on exes or seeing other men at the same time, and drifted away soon after.

After a while that loneliness does leave you somewhat emotionally "damaged", and it's a feedback loop, because the more unpracticed and desperate you get, the more women figure that you "deserve" your loneliness. "Desperation" by the way, is really just someone who is a little gun-shy about other people liking them, because everyone else who said they did left. So yeah, I get a little jumpy in situations like that. I'm a little nervous at this point, and women just will not excuse that behavior. They don't care why or how it happened. In their eyes, you're just a piece of shit, and you always were.

I felt like I was fine when I was younger, but now I don't. Now I have trust issues, now I always expect them to leave, and I can't trust that anyone likes me, and I have approach anxiety. And to make it worse, everyone online says that's just because I've really been a terrible person all along. They give you condescending advice, as if you don't already practice good hygiene, work out and have hobbies. As if the only way you could end up alone is by being a friendless, odorous shut-in who stares at the walls all day.

I was labeled as an "incel" for a while due to my life situation, but at this point, I publically say I'm voluntarily celibate (which often gets me labelled as "MTGOW" or whatever). Telling people I avoid relationships because I'm not "relationship material", is a waaaaaay easier and less shame-inducing conversation than, "No one would ever pick me, so here I am."

At this point, I honestly believe the former conversation to be the truth. Besides, the latter conversation inevitably leads to well-intentioned people talking to you like you're an entitled 12 year old, making you feel shittier about yourself. People who don't even know you will talk to you like they're your fucking therapist, telling you, "Well, you probably just hate yourself, and you need to be confident." And yeah, at this point I do hate myself, but that is an after-effect of loneliness not a cause.

[Lliam]

Thanks for that, Jj. Your MyTake broadened my understanding on the issue. I can understand where you're coming from.

My own approach to dating was quite different. I liked girls from childhood. I started going to dances in jr. high. At age 16, I had part time jobs and a car, but still lived at home. But that didn't stop me from asking girls out. I met girls at school and work. I was primarily interested in sex. In order to date someone, all I cared about is if they were cute (not necessarily classically gorgeous) and liked me. We would get into a steady relationship (which included sex) and see how things went.

In my case, it was the girls who wanted a long term relationship that would lead to marriage and children. I didn't. I knew that I was too immature for that kind of commitment. So, I would be with them for several months until I realized that they weren't the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, and then I would move on. I wasn't a "player". I really liked those girls. I never cheated on anyone. I would just meet someone else and then try to let my current girlfriend down as easily as possible. I even remained friends with a couple of them. Some were bitter. But they all moved on with their lives. Everyone just chocked it up to experience. I know that the ones I didn't lose contact with eventually got married and had kids, although not all the marriages lasted.

The thing is, I didn't know all that much about the girls that I began to date. It wasn't important to me. We went steady, had lots of sex, and gradually got to know more about each other over time. We didn't have to be a perfect match in every respect. We just had lots of fun together, both in and out of bed. We were best friends for a while.

I'm not saying that my approach was better. I'm just explaining why I didn't wind up involuntarily celibate.

[SirRexington]

I would fall under the banner of "Incel". Haven't had sex or a romantic encounter in years. A couple months ago, in December, I had my first kiss in years. A girl reciprocated and we made out for about 20 minutes. We hugged and kissed and embraced one another for awhile. It was the best time of my life. Sadly, she was forced to move out of her apartment and lives hours away. My point is, I was and am lonely. I'm Iooking for affection and appreciation and would love to be able to give that back to a young, beautiful girl.

I've been on Incel forums, about 2 years ago. I wanted to see what they were all about sense the news was always talking about them. What I found was some dark, evil instigating trolls seeking a way to breed hatred and prey on the loneliness and bitterness of these men. But that was a small percentage. The vast majority were not haters of women. They were sad, isolated and lonely men discussing their experience or often lack thereof with one another. They were supportive of one another, largely. Some men did shame them for wanting to even have a woman in their lives, making it seem like they were weak men for desiring such a thing. I've seen that type of language on here too, sadly. I think some men have grown to resent women because of their abuse, mistreatment, rejection and neglect at the hands of women. But these are the MGTOW incels who are usually slightly older and have been around the block a few times.

Incels are a product of our society. A society that shames men. A society that encourages promiscuous behavior and downplays the important of intimacy and sex. A society that champions lust and carnal inhibitions and sees them as nothing more than a commodity. A society that teaches us that sex=value. Its dangerous. Its making not just men but also women unhappy. Japan is seeing it, Britain is seeing it. Sweden is seeing it. Now the US is seeing it. But we've only started seeing it cause it's gotten so bad.

[Bluemax]

My brother counsels such people. Men and women alike. None of those he counsels are violent, or misogynists, or misandrists. None of them are really bitter about the opposite sex. They have hobbies. They are not basement dwellers. Some of them are quite charismatic. They're people like you and me. I tend to think the majority of incels are actually like those my brother counsels. Those violent misogynists seem to me to be a very loud minority.

[SirRexington]

@Bluemax that's very likely the case. But sadly we will continue to shame people for wanting a relationship and seeking intimacy. We value sex too much and love too little.

[englisc]

There's literally no such thing as an involuntary celibate. Any one of those men could find an escort/prostitute and get laid.

That's not what I'm saying that they should do, because that's disgusting, but if they really were so desperate to have sex in the way people claim, that's exactly what they'd do. But they don't - because it's not simply about sex. It's also about the romantic side of it. They want to be loved.

The trouble is, and this is the reason they get so angry although I don't condone the thing they do, that nobody gives a shit about them at all. In fact many of the same people who claim to care about men showing their emotions and feelings are very quick to tell such men to stop whining, get over it, and to mock them.

You've written this take and really the only people who will ever empathise with you are guys who've been in your situation. Guys who haven't and women in general are simply unable to understand it.

The reason many guys become incels I believe is because of all of the bullshit men are taught today growing up. In fact I mentioned this obsession with men being more emotional, which is part of the agenda to emasculate men and doesn't really come from genuine concern for men (otherwise they wouldn't act in the way I mentioned) - this is the cause of that. The men who listen to that kind of thing the most are the men who struggle the most.

Then the issue with helping these men is that they can't seem to snap out of that. In order to help them, or for them to help themselves I guess, they'd have to snap out of that overly-sensitive, soft, weak mentality that has been taught to them by our culture today. But it almost never works.

What's more, there are groups that do that (PUA and the redpill), and they're vilified because the things they teach are politically incorrect - because the way the world really works doesn't actually fit the PC narrative.

[kim45456]

And when women dont want you? We dont own men a shit. They dont have a right to blame on everything on us only because we reject them

[Robertcw]

@kim45456 Calm down Kim. lol.

[englisc]

@kim45456

That has nothing to do with anything I just said.

[Bluemax]

@kim45456
Absolutely. No one owes anyone sex. And certainly they don't have a case to blame women for rejecting them.

However, I know several incels personally. Not one of them feels the opposite sex owes them anything. Not one blames the opposite sex. (I say opposite sex because I know several female incels).

However, this knowledge that they're not owed anything hasn't made them any happier. And many of them are somewhat insulted when people such as yourself seem to assume they believe they're owed sex.

Suppose a loved one, perhaps your own son or daughter, or a niece of nephew, or beloved friend, came to you upset about their very lonely life. Would you automatically assume they believe sex is owed to them? And if they established that they don't believe sex is a right, nor do they blame the opposite sex, what then do you tell them?

[Trolloween]

I do feel bad for the genuinely decent people who just struggle with girls, but I think if you aren't a terrible person you'll eventually find someone. I see some truly awful men who have seven kids with seven women, drug addicts, jobless, assholes and they find many women who love them still.
So this is where I judge, if someone is truly a decent person and spends decades talking to multiple women and doing their best and still gets rejected by every single one... Well the problem is clearly them. They aren't the decent person they say they are. What most people experience with incels is people with disgusting personalities and views on women, just see the questions on here saying it should be legal to rape women which are written by incels and then argued for. Anyone who disagrees is called a white knight Chad. They also say things like they only want a 10/10 good looking girl showing how shallow they are.

So anyway yes it's possible to be a great guy who's incel but statistically it's just not likely and even these great guys seem to turn bitter after only a matter of time. Most likely they eventually join an incel forum and then it gets dark very quickly.

[kim45456]

Can you send me the link of the question?

[Trolloween]

I don't have a link because the user blocked me, but there have been several. One I think was titled 'should sex be a human right' and he was basically arguing it goes against his rights as a human being to be denied sex and he should be allowed to have sex with anyone he wants. It was very disturbing. He dmed everyone who disagreed with him abusing them and then blocked them all before they could reply.

[ChiTown33]

It's funny i've heard claims of questions like this but i've NEVER seen one for myself. Which to me tells me how RARE the TYPE of incel you're talking about is.

[DizzyDesii]

I think everyone is capable of getting laid. Its all about lowering your standards if you really crave dick/pussy. Even the most unattractive people have at least one person whos into them whether they know it or not. Problem is, theyre prob not into that one person in return. But I've always been a voluntary celibate because not just anyone deserves something very special to me

[DizzyDesii]

And i dont use the word incel. I wanna say thats some ___ ___ but i’ll just leave it at saying I've never used that word and no one here uses thAt. Its some online crap

[Jamie05rhs]

I don't want to get laid, though.

[DizzyDesii]

@Jamie05rhs yea so you wouldn't be an incel. You’d be voluntarily celibate like me

[Jamie05rhs]

I know. But the way you phrased your comment...

[DizzyDesii]

@Jamie05rhs oh i didn't realize i worded it wrong

[Jamie05rhs]

"I think everyone is capable of getting laid. It's all about lowering your standards if you really crave dick/pussy."

I mean, come on, Desii.

[Dongtai]

Nah fuck that. All my exes are 8’s and over. If I banged you, it’s because I thought you were the shit.

Swing for the fence guys. Fuck leagues 😂😂😂

[DizzyDesii]

@Jamie05rhs oh you meant my opinion. I thought you meant my reply. I dont see anything wrong there. I said CAPABLE. So even if they dont want it, they still have the ability. And im not saying everyone has to lower standards either... just the ones who assume they can't get laid

[Jamie05rhs]

@DizzyDesii But you're focusing on the wrong thing. It's not about "getting laid."

[Games_]

Your right, everyone got at least someone who likes em but it really depends on if u like em back. I dont blame em, no one should be forced to like someone if they dont have feelings for em

[DizzyDesii]

@Games_ yea i dont think you should lower your standards. Im just saying for those who think no one likes em should maybe consider doing so just to see of that was the issue all along.

[Games_]

I guess yeah. at least if below average people think u look good, ur not ugly then

[Robertcw]

@Dongtai I'm with you on that man. Though charm can make someone an 8+ if the rest of them is okay.

The notion of PUA was always to allow men to score outside their leagues. That was the whole point. Learn charm so that you can go higher.

[bangyourhead]

@Dongtai spot on, because a fat bitch will reject you as quickly as a hot chick. There’s no such thing as leagues.

[DizzyDesii]

Whats all this talks about leagues? when i said lower your standards, i wasn't referring to just looks... boys... i mean personality traits as well

[Dongtai]

That was my own spin. Whenever I hear someone say lower your standards, it translates to, stop going for who you want and get who you can get, even if it’s not who you want.

[DizzyDesii]

@Dongtai i mean yea i can see that point too especially for the whiney people who claim they’ll die a virgin. They make virginity seem so bad. They need to learn to value themselves before someone else will love them

[Bluemax]

The semantic hang ups people have with the word "involuntary" in front of the celibate seem strange to me.

If you just want to call someone who cannot be in a happy, desirable relationship "celibate," you're lumping them in with the people who are happy to not be in a relationship (priests, nuns, monks, and others).

If you're so hung up on the use of the word "involuntary," is there a term you'd use or would like to invent so that we don't lump these people into the same group of people who are happily, willingly, without reservation celibate?

[DizzyDesii]

@Bluemax when i called myself celibate, it was by choice that i was saving sex for marriage. The involuntary just doesn't fit for some reason. I can't think of the word i heard before that describes this situation better but it wasn't involuntary

[Boppy]

What about involuntarily dateless, or loveless?

[Jjpayne]

@Boppy that could work 🤔

[DizzyDesii]

The point is, i feel the “involuntary” part makes no sense because everyone can get somebody. It just may happen to be someone you're not attracted to but hey it proved you could've gotten at least one person

[Boppy]

That works for the sexless complaint, but I don't think that applies well to relationships.
It sounds like saying they should go for loveless, one-sided relationships.

[iOoko]

because there are more men than women below old age and because of hypergamy it means that fewer and fewer men have access to any woman at all

[bangyourhead]

I have immense compassion for men and women who are lonely. I know how frustrating it can be to strike out with women. I went through an extended dry spell. I made changes to my life and my personality and found that I was more successful with women.

The problem with the incel ‘community’ is that like most online communities, it grows increasingly toxic to stay relevant. If these incels took some rational advice to improve their lives and become more appealing to the opposite sex, the majority would find someone.

But much like racism, sexism, and feminism, they fall into the trap of getting more and more extreme to stay relevant and blame their shortcomings on others. Women aren’t people, they’re “thots”. Collectivism and identity politics is at the root of all this and it’s evil.

[CarpetDenim]

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Dchrls78104]

Maybe I can relate to this. I'm celibate but only half involuntarily and that's because I don't like what's on offer. Tattoos, body piercings, oral sex, thongs, and period sex are some of the things that seem to be popular these days but are totally unacceptable to me. Living with someone who is into any of these is a compromise I cannot afford to make. So every girl I've ever looked at has been unsuitable, or else unavailable. My point is that you shouldn't have to compromise yourself to be with someone, not only because it's the wrong thing to do, but also because you're being untrue to yourself. Ultimately you will lose the person's respect and he/she will walk away from you anyway.

[Jamie05rhs]

I had a discussion about this with a younger friend of mine last year. (Because, you know, young people tend to keep up on the trends and modern terminology and stuff like that.). We were hanging out, and the dude asked me, "are you an incel?". And I said; "Idk; what's an incel?". And then he explained the term to me. So I explained to him that I didn't think that term would apply since I'm not actually trying to have sex. (I want to wait until marriage.). So he said, "Oh. So you're a volcel.". And I said, "I guess I am!"

[DizzyDesii]

Never wouldve guessed incel stood for involuntary celibate. Nobody here uses that term. Thats some online stuff 😂

[Liam_Hayden]

It's a redefinition of terms. Celibacy refers specifically to lack of or shunning of sexual relations. Involuntary means by "not by choice." InCel therefore means "lacking a sexual relationship, not by choice."

The simple fact is that 99%+ of so-called InCels are not involuntarily celibate, but instead just have standards that are absurdly high. Like that obese whiner who keeps coming back on here lamenting how "No attractive women" will date him. Yeah, if you are a depressed and desperate 5'6 350 lb. loser it is unlikely that a 6' super model will find you attractive. But there are women he could have, even if they were not "attractive" to him, therefore he is not truly an "InCel." In fact, vert few guys are so repulsive that every woman on the planet would reject them.

[iOoko]

incels have a lower body mass index than the general population and what makes a guy attractive is beyond his control. you can't grow taller or develop a better face without surgery. about getting richer, just take a look at the social mobility rate for males. you're stuck where you're born and status correlates with attractiveness too

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Technically I'd probably fit the literal definition of incel as i haven't dated in about 4 years; but I've mainly just been preoccupied with other shit and not made the time to actively go seeking a partner. I don't identify with the incel subculture, nor do i share their attitudes or beliefs. Way i see it, an incel is someone who identifies themselves according to a victim narrative in which they've been unfairly cast out of the dating pool forevermore. So i think someone can happen to be sexless and single, but not identify as incel. I don't buy into their narrative, and I'm not expecting the universe to give me a relationship i haven't taken upon myself to initiate. So take from that as you will

[Taryn44]

I know this my sound obvious as hindsight is 20/20, but I am older than most of you and before I got married, I had a lot of meaningless sex. I did have a finish but if never gave me satisfaction. My wife and I lived together before we were married and we did a lot together. I believe our married life suffers a bit because of that. So instead complaining about the involuntary celibacy find other things to occupy your time and be glad that when you get married the sex will be better.

[DeeDeeDeVour]

I was about to suggest ChristianMingle. com & FarmersOnly. com since friends of mine tried it and scored a date & a bride out of those sites. However, they were embarrassed to say how much it cost them monthly to keep their memberships. The end results were happily positive anyway.

[Bluemax]

FarmersOnly? It's for farmers? Why just for farmers?

Why isn't there an ArchitectsOnly or InsurancesalesmanOnly or CPAsOnly? I'm curious why you suggested it to the Mytake author. I don't really know Jjpayne. Is he a farmer? How does FarmersOnly verify you're a farmer?

[DeeDeeDeVour]

@Bluemax: I don't think the site is limited to Farmers only. My friend isn't a Farmer but he managed to join and successfully meet & marry another member.

[cth96190]

@Bluemax
FarmersOnly would be because a farmer needs a woman who is happy with the rural life. An urban girl who has not been exposed to rural living would likely not survive on a farm.
For a comedic take on what can happen, look up an 1960s television show called Green Acres (Eddie Albert, Eva Gabor).
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058808/
Here in Australia, rural towns have very few young women, so a lot of farmers lead lonely lives and die lonely old men.
What happens is that the good-looking girls realise that their beauty gives them greater opportunities in the city; and girls who are sent to boarding school for their secondary education seldom return to live on the farm.
A television show called Farmer Wants a Wife takes a match-making reality show look at this situation. It is quite popular.
www.nowtolove.com.au/.../farmer-wants-a-wife-2020-farmers-60575
An urban girl who does not want to get her hands dirty, is not competent with firearms and cannot fend for herself when her man is elsewhere on the farm is not going to last as a farmer's wife. For example, if a woman cannot put a round between the eyes of an unwelcome visitor (without hesitation), play midwife to a cow or horse, or put down a suffering animal, she is not going to deal with life on a farm.

[Bluemax]

@cth96190 I'm old enough to actually remember Green Acres. I had a crush on Zsa Zsa.

And that's interesting about rural Australian communities. Rural mining communities in Alaska had similar problems.

[Anonymous]

On the part where you mentioned "can girls be incels", funny thing is a woman actually invented the term "incel" as far as I know, then virgin men simply adopted it as their own.

Anyway, on topic, I'm personally an incel, technically speaking, although I don't identify as such because of the frequent links with psychopathy, crime etc. I am the worst kind of an incel too, I never had even a kiss, held hands, or went on a date, my experiences with women are on an absolute zero (not counting friends and acquaintances). Yet I have a ton of traits that are considered attractive. So my only conclusion is - the world of dating, attraction etc. is not something that has visible patterns, and that can be intellectually figured out. Because believe me, I've tried.

[normalice]

The incel thing is just an effort by conservatives to turn normal adolescent sexual frustration against progressive policy. This is accomplished by bombarding young guys with the idea that everyone is getting laid but them, blaming women for it, and then fusing everything women want to progressive policy.

[iOoko]

we had a conversation before and you're the one who were against basic progressive reform like single payer healthcare. and conservatives hate incels

[normalice]

If by "against" you mean "not a trump supporter," then yeah. Otherwise I don't know what you're talking about.

[iOoko]

i don't what trump has to do with anything. it's just funny that you call out opposition to progressive policy when you're actually part of it

[normalice]

I mean, it would be funny if that were true, but clearly you are mistaken. I don't think it's wise to use a desire for progressive policy as an excuse to let trump get reelected, since he will do the opposite of progressive policy. I don't know what you're talking about if not that.

[iOoko]

i assume you mean that by nominating bernie sanders trump will get elected. you said the same about hillary clinton and it didn't work. it's possible biden will defeat trump but quite unlikely and it will be an antitrump vote if so. bernie sanders would be much stronger against trump according to all polls. anyway you say you support progressive policies so what has changed? do you support single payer now? or ending the wars? progressive taxation?

[normalice]

I said no such thing about Hillary. If Bernie Sanders was stronger, he would have more votes. That's the fundamental flaw you trump trolls don't seem to want discuss - if the support for Bernie is so high, then why didn't the ballots reflect that? You can try to claim election rigging, but that's stupid: everyone who wanted to vote for Bernie did, in fact, vote for Bernie. I certainly did (well, caucused for him). He just didn't generate the turnout that you Russian trolls worked to suggest he had. That's ultimately the flaw with your make-believe campaign against reality: eventually, reality has to reflect it or people stop buying it.

And nothing changed. I still support progressive policy. The fact that I acknowledge Biden is an infinitely better choice than Trump is >not< at odds with that no matter how hard you russian trolls work to try to suggest it is.

[iOoko]

do you really believe i'm a russian troll? what's the point of talking to me then? if you don't believe i'm a russian troll then why call me that? also how can you still tout russiagate conspiracy theories at this point? can't you see how ridiculous this is?
i'm not a trump supporter and i would never vote for him though i feel weak justifying myself before you. among the democrats it turned out biden was favored (ill informed cnn/msnbc-drunk suburbanites as it turned out) but many more independents prefer bernie to biden, especially in hte rust belt, which is essential to victory. you tried it in 2016. you nominated a right wing democrat and she lost. the same is probably going to happen now.
the iowa caucus was beyond rigged this year and if you don't know it you're just not informed enough to say anything about it.
let's talk policy. the most popular progressive policies are: non-interventionism, single payer healthcare, tuition-free college, 15 dollars an hour minimum wage, progressive taxation, the green new deal. do you support most of these? no? then you're less progressive than incels.

[normalice]

You make a good point. Why bother talking to a Russian troll such as yourself? I guess I don't really have a reason beyond boredom. I don't know what this covid19 thing is like on your side of the pond, but over here we're mostly stuck indoors all day, se there's a lot of boredom..

As for the rest of what you said, it's all Russian trash, of course. Again, I'll point out that if "many more" independents preferred Bernie, that would have been reflected at the ballot (independents can declare a party at the time of the primary, if they want). And perhaps you don't have caucuses in your kingdom of Russia, but they are impossible to rig. When you show up to the caucus you can use your eyes to look around and see who is likely to win your precinct. And if thats too hard for you, they also physically count the totals right in front of you. Further, you can double check your precinct results after it's over. We had reporting issues, but everything was accurately reported, eventually. I don't know why I'm explaining this to you, as I'm sure you know all this already but it's your job as a trump troll to pretend this information doesn't exist. But as I said I'm bored, so whatever...

[iOoko]

about the iowa caucus they literally acknowledged the mistakes but refused to correct them. about sanders being more electable than trump or biden among the general population, you can look at the polls. polls show biden losing against trump and sanders winning. obviously, it's far from certain it will happen, fortunately, given how biden is the only choice now. we also shouldn't forget about biden's cognitive decline. much to my dismay he will be eaten up and spit out by trump on the debate stage. i don't understand what you're trying to prove by shaming me for being russian (which i am not btw). that you're just as hateful and toxic as republicans? not only do you support the same policies (except about abortion and transgenders in the military i presume), you also resort to the same tactics of shaming and name-calling. so congratulations. maybe the way to beat republicans is by being as horrible and they are. it's amazing a 40 year old man can be so childish. seriously, think about how crazy this russia thing is. even tara reade got called a russian agent for accusing biden of sexual assault. this has gone beyond crazy. it's truly alex jones level lunacy. it used to be the republicans who accused you of being a secret foreign enemy. this reminds me of the birther conspiracy too. well now you're just as unhinged. поздравляю. ты стал твоим врагом. блядь! i've blown my cover! my master putin will execute me for failing to bring down america!

[normalice]

They did acknowledge the mistakes. But it appears you have been misinformed as to what those mistakes were that they acknowledged.

I've seen no polls that show Biden losing to trump. And, again, no matter what polls say, if the people who participated in these polls you claim exist were actual primary voters, Bernie would be the presumptive nominee right now. But they weren't.

Biden has no cognitive decline. That's pure Russian rhetoric. I'm not trying to prove you are a Russian trump troll - you've already proven that by doing a spot on impression of them. I'm just informing you that I'm onto you.

Also, see what I did up there? I don't know anything about the Russian language, but in English paragraph breaks make things much easier to read.

[iOoko]

this video cites the polls in the description
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GABCTeQTTN8
i'm genuinely surprised you deny biden's cognitive decline. not that trump has none but it's nowhere near as painful as biden's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbE2SmV2bs
so you believe i'm being paid by the russian governement? you literally believe it? and the sarcastic sentence in russian is definite proof? were you created in a lab as a parody? also were is the evidence of this russian plot? it does remind me of uranium one and pizzagate. or the birther thing. fox news touts it, republicans repeat. rachel maddow touts, you repeat.
also how can i be a trump supporter if i, well, don't support him and even prefer biden over him?

[normalice]

I'm not interested in YouTube videos. None of it is held to a standard of credibility - just copyright.

I don't know why you're surprised. I watched the debates. He was a little bland, but certainly coherent. You clearly did not watch the debates, since we all know you've been set on trump from the start.

And no, I don't think any Russian troll is actually paid for their work. I don't actually know a lot about Russia, but I don't see a guy like Putin paying for anything when threats would work instead.

Also, if you prefer Biden over trump, i guess I don't understand what we're arguing about? I assure you I'm probably less enthusiastic about Biden than you are, but I also acknowledge that every single letter typed on the internet could potentially influence someone's vote. I am extremely enthusiastic about being rid of trump, and so I am enthusiastic about Biden. He may be a rubber mallet when I need a hammer, but you can bet your ass if it's the only tool realistically within my grasp I'm going to swing the shit out of it.

[iOoko]

you got rid of much better tool.
the video about the pools cites sources, the video about biden is just biden talking so i don't understand that the credibility issue is.
i have good reasons to want trump away, but i would like to hear yours, as as far as i know you support the same policies. also, what excites you about biden?
if you really believe i'm being paid by putin, you're either crazy or gratuitously shaming me, which reminds me a lot of trump supporters. it's a extremely absurd shaming tactic of the same kind as mccarthyism and most people see through it. when all congress was on board with mccarthy people were scared out of their mind. i hope it doesn't come to that again.
you've misunderstood the russian trolls claim and surprisingly made it even more unhinged: russian "trolls" are supposed to be bots. it's possible russia operates bots just like the US and the UK do, but hiring actual people to do the job is absurd. also debating isn't the kind of work such a person would do (and a bot would be so bad at it it would be self-defeating). rather they would just post propaganda in visible places or spam it elsewhere without engaging with people.

[iOoko]

continuation

i have seen the debates. they were jokes. the right-wing democrats didn't face the slightest challenge while bernie was being attacked for saying the same things obama said. pete muttered over him and the moderators let him. biden downright denied advocating for cuts to social security and medicare and visibly struggled and sometimes failed to speak coherently. you can protect biden against bernie but not against trump and i can only wish you put as much effort into helping the people and defeating trump as you put into defeating bernie.
i could send you videos of that as well as biden literally saying he "prostituted himself to big donors" when he became old enough (40), but all you'll say to that will be russia russia russia.
just like according to trump supporters it's all a jewish conspiracy, to you it's all putin's masterplan.
you severely overestimate russia's power and underestimate america's power. russia is brutal but that has little repercussion outside it's own small area of influence, which at this point is just ukraine and russia itself. america meddles in elections all the time, and when they don't succeed they just invade. it's a very strange complaint of americans and people abroad are laughing at it.

[normalice]

I don't think we've ever spoken before, so I guess I don't understand what you're talking about with your assertion that I support the same policies as Trump? As I said, I caucuses for Bernie - twice, in fact.

My association with you and the Russians is simply that you seem to be discouraging people from voting for Biden in November (if he's the nominee). Nothing more. That subtle reluctance to vote for Hillary was a major component of their tactics in 2016. I can't say for sure that it worked, but I'm resolute in not giving that bullshit an inch of ground this time. So, if you want to repeat the Russian propaganda, even if you aren't aware, I'm still going to treat you like you are aware.

[iOoko]

since you're not going to see reality and i was fired by putin after i told him you're onto me i'll go for a moral appeal. by selecting biden you've forfeited the life of many both in the usa and abroad, not just by lowering the chances of a democratic victory, but also because biden is hardly any different to trump. he isn't even as left as clinton and will continue meeting republicans in the middle (=all the way through) and allow the spectrum of congress to inexorably shift further and further to the right. bernie was a once in a lifetime chance. you blew it and your only excuse is that you just did what cnn and msnbc told you to. it's not a good excuse and not the excuse of someone who insults and demeans others for daring looking at problems in the face and fighting for solutions. before you ask or more likely scoff at the idea of lives being lost due to a trump second term or a biden first term you need to know that poverty, drone strikes (obama's global assassination campaign), imperialistic wars, lack of single payer and universal overage, pollution, and many other things neither candidate is willing to tackle do kill more people than the things you (i'm generalizing but at this point i don't care) claim to care about like "civility and decorum)

[normalice]

I thought you said you supported Biden over trump? Is there multiple Russians using your account and none of y'all are allowed to look back on what the others said to stay consistent? At least read what i say before responding to it. Your just randomly frothing out Russian propaganda with no regards as to whether it or not your talking points are a natural progression ofnthe conversation. Please stop, trump troll.

[iOoko]

your arguments have shifted from being sprinkled with shaming to consisting exclusively of it. what makes you think that i support trump over biden? i repeat that calling me names is immature and shameful of a 40 year old, and that accusing everyone who criticizes you of being a state enemy is deeply authoritarian and evil. this literally isn't done anywhere but in the US and (de facto) dictatorships. it's done in russia as i'm sure you want to know, it's done in china, it's done in north korea, and surprisingly it's done in the US. if you did it in germany, people would assume you're a fascist, because in democratic countries you can freely disagree with anybody without being accused of "disseminating discord" or whatever authoritarian phrase happens to be trending.

it's also worth noting that russiagate fell flat in every possible way. the indictments were due to obstruction of justice, as no evidence of collusion was found. unfortunately the democrats picked the weakest line of attack against trump and they lost (a massive gift they handed to him, knowingly or not). i'll point out that you can acknowledge this without supporting trump, as the reasons i oppose trump are much more grave and real. they include: 430% increase of drone strikes, pulling out of the iran nuclear deal and the paris climate agreement, repealing environmental regulations, escalating tensions with russia (even though he's a russian puppet apparently), bailing out large corporations while giving crumbs to the people during the covid.19 crisis, taken health insurance away from seven million people... you know, real stuff, but the list goes on forever. i wish the problem with trump was being friends with putin but unfortunately it's much more dire and frightening than putin can ever hope to be in his wildest dreams.
continues...

[iOoko]

... continuing
on the other hand this russiagate is has much more in common to the birther conspiracy than any factual criticism of trump. it's dumb and a waste of time but i will never go away as long as obama, or in this case trump, is president.

furthermore, in general and regardless of the veracity of russiagate, believing every disagreement with you is due to russian propaganda is no different to alt-right nazi type calling everyone who disagrees with them a jew. let me ask you this: if we met in person and had this discussion, would you still call me a russian to my face? hell, what if i was russian? would i be stupid or vile just because of it? what are you hoping to achieve by being so hateful? just because the media you consume sanction such hatred it doesn't make it reasonable. do you think it will win me over? don't get me wrong, you do offend me. being called a trump supporter, specifically, offends me as i think he's the most dangerous person on the planet, literally, and being called russian scares be because, as i already said, gives me nazi vibes and make you sound crazy to the point of danger, but neither thing will sway me from keeping a critical eye on biden, as well as trump

[normalice]

The thing is, when it comes to far right propaganda, you either identify it all as a scam and reject it, or you let some in and it eventually consumes you entirely: you get out from shallows or you don't get out at all. And that nonsense about "russiagate" falling flat is pure far right pro trump Russian propaganda. Wherever you heard it from is the small smidgen of scam that you've let in, and it will take you over eventually.

[iOoko]

i realize russia gate has fallen flat because i saw it happen, not because fox new told me. it's called thinking with your own head. what if i told you far-right propaganda isn't confined to fox news and that cnn is also far-right on pretty much every issue except gay rights and you shouldn't believe everything they say either? it's ironic you're accusing me of being brainwashed. russiagate is pretty far-right too as i have described. it's also a very whimsical claim on part of america. america manupulates elections all the time (like yeltsin's election in russia, ironically) and when they can't they organize coups by proxies or just invade. russiagate is the most ridiculous thing to a foreigner and it WAS a huge gift to trump because it made him look like a victim and confirmed his "being an outsider" narrative. they should have gone after him for the real stuff instead. let's also not forget the fact that you've insulted me all the way far-right style smears

[iOoko]

biden himself is quite the far-righter. he coauthored the tough on crime bill which is much of the reason why we have protests now. he's advocated multiple times for cutting social security medicare and medicaid. voted for all the wars. i could show you videos of him doing that but you'll just call it russian propaganda again (like russia paid biden to smear himself i suppose...)

[iOoko]

oh i forgot what susan rice just said. russia is behind the protests. not murderous (American) cops. it's russia! i should've guessed. clearly if you protest against trump without people like you calling you a russian troll. oh but i'm the far right type? yeah...

[normalice]

You saw it happen on fox news, though. If Biden wins it will all be revealed as a lot less "fallen" than fox news is trying to make it look.

Nothing else you said made any sense. It's like you turned on a random pro-right conspiracy theory generator and never bothered to turn it off. Or maybe you're just copying trumps tweets verbatim. What's the difference these days..

[Anonymous]

Incel has definitely taken on a new meaning I think. I guess I was technically an incel until recently because I was interested in a sexual relationship but was not interested in one that wasn't also going to come with a romantic relationship. Currently with my first boyfriend and we have sex pretty frequently. I had never really been hit on by anybody, not even been kissed, which seems to be the same experience for a lot of these incels I'm seeing on the internet. Some of them are pretty hateful, I've even come across an incel account on here that refers to women as whores because he wants a virgin girl and nothing else. I think people need to open themselves up to more social situations so that maybe they can meet potential partners. And also maybe not have so many stipulations about potential partners

[Optymistyk]

Yeah there are female incels but usually they just don't take care of themselves (fat, acne, etc)

A lot of incel guys are in very good condition. Some good-looking even. It's just that it's infinitely easier for a woman to have sex than for a man and you must be seriously neglecting your body to be a female incel

[kim45456]

Bullshit, you can go to a prostitute

[Optymistyk]

@kim45456 wow, no shit Sherlock. Yeah I mean go throw a bunch of money you've spent hours earning on a girl to pretend to want you for a couple od minutes. It's the same thing. It's not going to feel artificial in the slightest. Or make you feel bad. And who needs a family anyway, it's all about sex as we all know. Why don't women go to male prostitutes, I mean it's the perfect substitute for a partner without all the usual stuff women complain about...

[Bluemax]

@kim45456
For many, it's not just about sex. That's why they don't go to a prostitute.

And I've known some who have done just that. In EVERY case, they wound up feeling worse for seeing a prostitute. Not better. Also prostitution is an institution which is infamous for how SHITTY it treats women. Some incels have valid reservations about throwing money at an institution which is very bad on women.

[kitty71]

I will be a celibate until Im old nd is not something I like but Im already used to the idea taht is how the rest of my days will be. At my age no guy set eyes on me anymore not even for a lousy coffee get together nothing and nothing. I dont know what is to experience sex

[DiegoO]

Sex is like going to a restaurant. You can go for the junk, or for the high quality sex, but never for both. Is one thing or the other.

[kitty71]

@DiegoO im not going to either one

[Bluemax]

Very, very well put, Jjpayne.

I know the thread where you pulled the quotes from. Sometimes it's depressing how poorly thought out people's responses are, or worse, the astonishing lack of compassion many people have.

[Dargil]

Many "incels" are like men without the expensive cars they want. They want to drive them but they aren't worth the expense of buying one. Since a cheap Kia won't do, they go without. They really aren't involuntary, they just don't sell in the market and don't want to buy what's available. But there's always high end rentals.

So go down to Budget and rent that Mercedes C-300 for the day. Kind of like an escort.