Antiheroes. Complicated characters who dont have "convention" attributes of heroism and who dont have all the ideal traits the audience or society thinks they should and do morally ambiguos actions that could be good, bad or complex hard to tell due to the complicated factors involved. This is very realistic to real life, when the government is decieving us and its hrd to tell what is right and what is wrong, and in the real world if you are a hero even a regular noble hero you can still be seen as bad. And you have to be rebellious to save people a lot of times in the real world.
They can bring more nuance to the superhero genre and make it more realistic and grounded or more morally complex and make characters more relatable and keep them relevant and interesting in a time where super heroes are becoming fatigue inducing. A regular hero archetype can be altered with new complex moral themed hero that is facing prejudice in society that has attributes of an anti hero or even a person we see as bad in the real world and make us less judgmental of people who struggle and then we will not stereotype people as much.
Many antiheroes, Like The Hulk, Punisher, Are done really well, and some like Wolverine are done in a mixed way. They could do better and they are over rated and don't really add anything to the anti hero genre and kinda let them get away with things unrealistically like being rude.
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I think your grey area on this matter is larger than it should be. In the simplest terms, heroes do all of the right things for all of the right reasons. Villains do all of the wrong things for all of the wrong reasons. Antiheroes do all of the wrong things for all of the right reasons. Typically “all of the right things for all of the wrong reasons” is reserved for us mortals in the writing.
It’s not unthinkable that the term “antihero” goes away all but academically as iconic series develop characters, as you point out, more thoroughly realistically. I’ll refer to brilliantly written shows like “The Walking Dead” and “Cobra Kai”, in which old fashioned views of heroism and villainy are challenged every season if not every episode.
My favorites have always been antiheroes. Hulk first above all, and then Wolverine. I absolutely fell in luv with Spawn the first time i saw him.
Venom was first developed as a villain but evolved meaningfully into an antihero and then the symbiote became somewhat pragmatic, amplifying attributes of its host rather than abiding or defying it. It was a unique and brilliant arc, if you ask me.
I know that anti hero can end up doing bad anyways, but they are more complex than just one set of moral choices. There are various different types of antiheroes, I view it as like a spectrum, some more hero and some more anti
I dont agree with you saying that I am being too grey. I think they are on the gray area, but I am a christian and I believe in objective morality. I just think anti heroes and in a bad position where morality is complicated.
In the real world, heroes face morally complex obstacles as well. And they get shamed by society. Or even imprisoned
I think you’re conflicted. Rightfully so, i’m not judging. You simply can’t believe in objective morality AND antiheroism unless you support fascism. You’re likely living your intrinsic value system through fiction while accepting very different behavior in your real life because of indoctrination.
Kudos for the disagree! I dig the fact that you can recognize and address that without declaring i’m “wrong” or “stoopid” or a troll, or whatever else. I think i can persuade you, but if i don’t i’m more than happy to agree to disagree. I have a sneaking suspicion you’re similar in this regard.
I disagree. No one is perfect except the lord jesus christ. This is not a matter of politics. Sometimes trying to do the right thing can mean being rebellious. Sometimes the protaganist of a story has to over come some things that get in the way of doing the right thing. This is true for people in real life. Something can be mostly good, but somewhat bad.
Antihero doesn't mean bad or good it means morally complex situation we can't fully understand.
I have autism and adhd and I have always had a difficulty with nuanced things and anti heroes help me out.
You kinda overhwelmed me because I don't wanna be a fascist that is very antithetical to my political and social views
I dont support every single action an anti hero does, I like them as a person and believe in them doing good
I more root for them in there goals, but not always there actions.
You have a general way of saying something i can get to in short order. What makes a hero is their value system. What separates heroes from antiheroes is their means to an end. I don’t believe i established a political value system per se. I simply extended my answer to meet the question in full, since you divided fiction from “the real world”. Fascism isn’t a political party. In short, it’s a system derived from power that HAS been applied in politics and government.
The idea that YOUR brand of “right” is the only form of right to be recognized and enforced is absolutely fascism. Antiheroes are literally above that. Their value systems go beyond established authority to do what is morally right. In the real world, we might argue that rebels are antiheroes and vice versa. Your argument will depend entirely on your perspective. Do you agree with the party in control or not?
The January 6th demonstrators are antiheroes to some and villains to others; based entirely on their relationship to the party in control.
I dont believe in enforcing my views on other people, my view is were all in the same boat me and you we try to be good but people make wrong choice sometime but theycan still be primaryily good
I dont know what you mean by party in control. Its debatable which one that is.
Yeah thats why is subjective and hard to tell morality sometimes. Killing is wrong stealing is wrong, but sometimes there justified. It can be complicated and difficult to do the right thing, and you may do something mostly good. As long as you try to be good within the realms of what you know, your not a bad person to me.
Antiheroes can become better or worse, or stay the same. It depends on the story.
I think what I mean is anti heroes are realistic. Sometimes military and other people we deem heroes are told to do a morally questionable action by a higher up and they dont know until after the fact and they regret it.
Sometimes doing the right thing is difficult and such conditions an anti hero is born.
Didn’t you admit to being Christian? Christians have done absolutely horrific things in the name of spreading their religion over centuries.
An antihero’s scope might change in accordance with the audience’s perspective, but it’s extremely rare for the artistic direction to change for a given protagonist or antagonist. I think you’ll benefit from studying fiction and documentary at greater depths and comparing the two more carefully.
yah I am and I know that means christians are capable of bad things and morality isn't always so easy to comprehend
are you saying im a bad guy
Of course the character should always be who he is and traits or attributes or a specific goal but what I meant is he can become a better person and more heroic than anti
and when I say there capable of becoming a regular hero I meant they have that capability. very rare does a character do this.
I was more refering to moral development for the more morallty ambiguos antiheroes
Wolverine, for example, is a pretty good guy just rude or shows coldness, but you see he does get better over the years and become nicer
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