Hey Guys, it's OKAY to be "Girly"

[north2south]

I want you to imagine two images.

One: A woman in jeans, a t shirt, and sneakers.

Two: A man in a skirt, tank top, and high heels.

Which one seems more odd to you? Likely, the second. You may say that "Well, thats because pants are gender neutral while skirts are only for ladies." Well you're wrong. For a long time in American history, pants were reserved strictly for men.

The following is a drawing created during the women's suffrage movement.

When it comes to gender roles, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to relationship abuse, jobs, and sexualization. But one thing we are blessed with is the ability to express ourselves. I could walk outside in jeans and a t shirt or a frilly dress and no one would care either way. I could play a sport or join an art class and no one would think anything of it. I could wear a full face of makeup or no makeup at all, and people wouldn't bat an eye.

Men, on the other hand, are more restricted by society to archaic masculine stereotypes. I heard a guy say before "Boy, it would be nice to be a girl so I could use an umbrella." AN UMBRELLA. Men are so afraid of being feminine and weak that they will resist an object as tame as an umbrella. If a guy participates in dance classes, everyone calls him gay. If a guy dresses in a skirt, everyone calls him a fruit or a weirdo or crazy. Men are so afraid of being ridiculed for doing anything remotely feminine that beauty companies feel the need to "man up" their packaging.

I'm here to say that that's wrong. Men should be able to wear fuzzy socks and order fruity delicious drinks at the bar and use concealer and foundation to cover up a pimple without feeling like they're going to be ridiculed for doing so. They should be able to wear pinks, purples, pastels, and even shave their legs if they like to feel smooth. It doesn't mean you're gay (and you shouldn't be afraid of being called gay, because there are some gay guys out there that are more badass than you could ever dream of being) and it doesn't mean you're weak. It just means you're a human trying to live your damn life. As girls, we have the privilege when it comes to fashion and our own femininity to express ourselves in practically any way we like. Men should be able to do the same.

[lumos]

"If a guy participates in dance classes, everyone calls him gay."
Funny you should say that because I used to take dance classes as a kid, up until my mid-teens. There was this one guy from my school who ended up going to these classes for maybe about a year, and I thought it was so cool. I actually had a crush on him and it just made him seem cooler to me haha. It was him, another boy and like 10 girls. None of the girls thought it was weird. But I'm sure other guys could have called him gay if they knew about it, and if I remember correctly he even told me to try to avoid telling others at school.
I think it's perfectly fine for people to wear what they want to wear, and I'm not one to tell people what they can/can't do. As long as people don't start walking around in just their underwear in public or whatever, I don't really care.

[Mesonfielde]

I think guys also tend to get abused by abusive women in relationships.

Otherwise, true.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Couldn't really bring myself to read all of that becaues the first part is actually so completely inaccurate. First women have always had greater leeway with gender roles then men have had. If a woman wanted to act a certain way she could men on the other hand who acted in any fashion other then masculine would be ridiculed, physically beaten and frequently killed or exiled. As for sexual assaults, according to the CDC men are as likely to be raped/sexually assaulted as women are and this is before we factor in that we do not allow men to be victims and thus men are discouraged from admiting to it. As for abuse, men are actually more likely to be abused then women are we just don't punish women for it (which is one of the reasons why men are more likely to be abused to begin with. Historically men who where abused by their wives would be publically punished and humilated (called riding the donkey backwards). As for jobs, its men working in sewage, in mining in construction work in police work and in military all jobs women could do but choose not to. Meanwhile men are actively forced out of schools (they have far more false complaints leveled against them then women) so again, women get to choose what jobs they want and thanks to laws they will be more likely to be hired then a a man. As for men acting feminine, well they don't because of many reasons, one being women will never allow it. This is just simple fact women will not tolerate a man who doesn't act traditionally masculine that is why we have all of this bullshit "nice guys aren't nice" because any man who doesn't act as aggressive as women think men should act or as "confident"(assholeish) as they think men should will not give that man the time of day. Secondly society will not tolerate it because men are and always have been disposable in the eyes of women and society so a man who acts like a woman does not function in a way that makes him readily disposable i. e. you can't send him into a mine to do grueling dangerous work to feed his family if he starts acting like a woman and valuing himself over his family, if he views his life as valuable simply for existing he isn't going to risk it protecting others like police officers and military do. That means society crumbles.

[hellionthesagereborn]

If a man sees himself like a woman then he stops trying to prove his worth because he will act like his worth is inherent and thus feel no need to be ambitious, to take risks which not only protect and provide for women/children and society but also halts the progress of society. So no, its not okay for men to act feminine, according to women and according to society. As for how society acts towards men, why do you think that men are some how a blank slate? Men are different then women and so things appeal to men that don't appeal to women, why is it so wrong for men to be different then women? Why do you dislike masculinity so much that you would encourage men to abandon it?

[ebbyeb]

Okay pal, I'm not sure what kind of ignorant bubble you're living in, but allow me to educate you a little bit. I understand all of your points and where you're coming from, but the world isn't as black and white as you're making it. The girl who wrote this isn't saying anything drastic like "every guy should drop his masculinity and become feminine"... No. She's simply arguing on BEHALF of all the males who feel suppressed by society to not let their true selves be expressed. She's saying that society is messed up. Anyone should be who they want to be. Also, I don't think you understand what "gender roles" means... Seeing as you said one thing then described something different. "Gender roles" are the traditional roles that each gender would play in a society. Examples being the woman does all the housework and takes care of the kids, while the man provides for the family. That's what gender roles are. I also completely disagree with you when you say that women have "always had

[ebbyeb]

leeway"... That's completely false. Women haven't been able to express themselves in even such as simple matters as getting their own jobs, wearing what they'd like, or even simply voting. That's all brand new in this world. It's only existed for a handful of generations. Meanwhile, men have had many privledges for as far back as when humans were nomads. There is no such thing as "women won't allow" this or that as much as there isn't a 'men won't allow this or that.' I'm not sure you've noticed, but you ARE (trying to) speak on behalf of approximately half of the human population when you fantasize any potential women preferences. Sorry, but try as you might, we're not some simple single being that you can just assign whatever preferences are available to help further your argument. That's like me saying "all men are exactly the same." When that's obviously not true. Everyone's different. And what's even more striking, is the fact that you tried speaking on behalf of half the

[ebbyeb]

Population that you don't even BELONG in. Sorry pal. There's simply no credibility or facts in any of your argument. While I find myself nodding lightly in some portions of your argument... There's simply too much ignorance laced throughout the entirety of it, that I'd say it's hard to find anything hardy in the end.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb Do you think talking down to people will elicit a more open dialogue with them? You can disagree and still be civil about it.("Listen pal" is a bit patronizing) In fact if your getting angry with some one having a different view then thats usually a sign that your holding onto your own beliefs far to tightly (this is what stifles intellectual growth and progress and why otherwise intelligent people hold rather unintelligent ideas). So to counter your argument, you claim to understand my argument but then tell me its inaccurate. That means you really didn't understand my argument since its not really an argument so much as a statement of fact. Unless you have a better idea on why it is that we have less empathy for men, send them to do all the dangerous and hard work while women are protected, and these same men being willing to do so? This is biology, its how we evolved to be.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb As for who we want to be, well sure thats a nice thought but how do you practically apply it? If I want to slack off and get a check from the government thats my right to want that but if implemented that hurts society, if more people do that that hurts society even more until it eventually collapses. If for instance people wish to be promiscuis, they have every right to do so. However that leads to single mother hood, single mother hood adversley affects children increasing the probability that they will become depressed, be more likely to commit suicide, more likely to become involved with criminal activities (80% of all convicts come from single mother homes), more likely to consume and abuse drugs and alcohol etc. It also results in higher divorce rates and cheating (the chances of divorce with 1 partner is 1%, the chances of divorce with two is 16%) wich also leads to single parent households

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb that adversley affect children who themselves are more likely to repeat their parents mistakes with promiscuity and divorce ensuring the next generation suffers as well.
So do we stand by and do nothing? Sure they have that right and their should be no law regulating that in my opinion but society has a responsibility to deter such behavior. Societal norms/taboos function no differently then general parenting except of course its applicable to the whole society. If those are removed its no different then when a parent stops disciplining and parenting their children, disfunction is inevitable. So by standing back and doing nothing you do not guide the people down a path, now gender roles are based upon gender predispositions, masculine with male, female with male. Their is no blank slate. When you remove that the impulses are still their but they go from, for a lack of a better term, domesticated biological impulses to wild ones.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb "Gender Roles: the role or behavior learned by a person as appropriate to their gender, determined by the prevailing cultural norms" I do believe I used the term accurately, where did I use that term differently then how it is defined here? As for leeway, well thats a statement of historical fact. For intsance women have absolutely been able to work, why this myth is still around boggles my mind as a rudimentary search will show you that it is provably false. For instance we have documents (found in the tower of london) showing female master blacksmiths that date back to the 1300s. We know from law that women where for a short time barred from working in mines, they could work outside of them but inside the mines it was deemed to dangerous (this also dispells the notion that women where less valued then men as it was perfectly acceptable to risk a mans life, it was not acceptable to risk a womans)

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb I mean you can even look back to ancient scandinavian society and the shield maidens, female warriors, women who chose to fight. Their was no restriction on this except that if she was pregnant or had children. This was because of the obvious issue that it endangered the children as she was the only one who could nurse them. Same goes for the Scythian women who where the inspiration for the amazonians of greek mythology. In fact this limitation was one of the few limitations that is a woman could own property enter into contracts, conduct business etc so long as she was unmarried. Once married the man was financially responsible for her and thus her rights to do these things where removed because her responsibility for them was handed over to her husband (hence men being imprisoned for their wives debts).

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb As for your claim of variety, yes that is absolutely true that not every one is the same, I never said otehr wise. What I stated was women would not allow it, that was not all women that was in fact rather obviously meant to show that the vast majority of women would not allow it. Their are always exceptions. Just like transexualism and homosexuality and bisexuality are exceptions, that is true they exist but they comprise, according to all the data we currently have (and common sense) only about 5% of the population. Why would we bend the rules or out right remove them that benefit the 95% for the benefit of the 5%? Thats the problem, you are demanding we ignore the vast majority for the sake of the minority. Yes you should respect the differences of others, but part of that is respecting the fact that the majority of people do function a certain way, you have to respect the majority if you plan on respecting every one.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb As for speaking on behalf of the population I don't belong in, well by that reasoning you and the original poster of this mytake are also speaking on behalf of a population they don't belong in so now where are we at? Besides which I can tell you pretty accurately how women respond to men because I am a man, I know how they respond to certain behaviors concerning men so it wasn't on behalf of women, I spoke on behalf of men, we are not stupid we know what elicits what response when it concernes our interactions with women and what I stated is in fact very accurate. Hence all the questiones and statements on this site talking about how "men are to feminine these days", "why do men not act like men?" etc. As for you claiming their is no credibility or fact to any of my arguments, well show it don't say it. I can just as easily say you have no credibility but without some kind of argument or evidence its utterly meaningless.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb I have spent my life in study, I would say that what I stated coincides with known facts and data but if you have evidence suggesting otherwise please share it rather then simply state that I am wrong and then assume that the argument was some how won.

[ebbyeb]

@hellionthesagereborn That WOULD be a good point, but we aren't speaking on BEHALF of anyone. Simply mentioning and supporting a group of people is completely unrelated to speaking on behalf people. So no, we aren't doing that. We're simply supporting a group of people that are having trouble expressing their true selves in this society. We aren't speaking FOR them. Simply saying that society's standards are trashy and should be more accepting of how people are. Again, you're trying to speak of about half the human population. Yes. You're a guy. Yes. You have experience with a general crowd of women. But AGAIN, you're grouping all women into the same category as the women you've encountered in life. AGAIN, not every women is the same and shouldn't be grouped like that. "I know how they respond to certain behaviors concerning men," you really don't, and can't know. Yes, of your general encounters of the same women you see daily, yes, but again, that's grouping. You're pretty much

[ebbyeb]

trying to say that ALL women will act in "x" fashion and that you automatically will just know because of "x" experiences. What you stated is an opinion. There is nothing factual about it at all. Literally nothing factual. What you said is the drop dead definition of an opinion. A strong one, but an opinion just the same. It's not me that needs to "show" anything. You're the one claiming that they're "facts," so please, elaborate and show me some actual data and evidence from professionals. And reasonable data at that please. I know that you feel that what you're saying is common sense so it gives the impression of feeling factual, but that's not reality. Just because you really and truly believe something doesn't make it a fact. So please, give me data then I might feel differently about your argument. As of right now, I only see a stubbornly held strong opinion that in no way shape or form is factual. You indeed CAN claim that I don't have facts. Because I don't! BUT I'm not

[ebbyeb]

claiming to have any. So go ahead and point out something that's not there to begin with. What I'm producing is simply a logical and structured argument. A debate if you will. I'm NOT providing any data-related facts, or any facts at all. And I never claimed that I was. This all began with me simply pointing out that everyone is different and that you were pointing out that women will always evoke the same responses to certain specific gestures. In this case, it being that men feel more safe to behave in more of a feminine fashion. This, in no way, is claiming that "all men are going to walk around in lipstick and high heels." For you seem to receive that type of impression. That's absolutely false. This author is SIMPLY SAYING that men who feel suppressed by society in behaving a bit more "feminine" (examples being well dressed, caring about shoes, always wearing Chapstick etc.) should feel safer to express themselves more and not feel fear of being suppressed by society.

[ebbyeb]

So of coarse, it's silly to assume that every women is going to evoke the same general response. Seeing as there are so many and we ARE individuals with each our own opinions and preferences. For example, Tom likes shoes a lot. He's obsessed with always getting Nike and Adidas. A lot of the people in his daily life think that he's "girly" for caring about his shoes and buying shoes on a daily basis. In that sense, he's insecure about it, and might not feel good about expressing that side of him as much. Simply because society deemed it "girly". Even if it really isn't. Basically, the author was saying that, in the first place, in an ideal world, society wouldn't care if he's acting "girly" or not. He's just a shoe fan. No problem. The author is saying that nevertheless, he should feel free expressing himself how he wants without society's opinion jutting in and influencing how he behaves.

[ebbyeb]

And responding to your first response (I missed it)... Again, there's no facts whatsoever in anything that you're saying. Again, you're claiming to have these "facts" that simply aren't there. What you're saying are very strongly felt opinions. That doesn't make them factual in any way shape or form. And yes, I do understand your train of thought and where you're coming from. And yes, I do disagree with that. Just because I disagree with what you're saying doesn't automatically deem me to be wrong. It doesn't work like that. I can understand anything and still disagree with it. Those two things are completely unrelated. I can understand the process in which chickens are raised to be killed in order to make chicken nuggets, but completely disagree with it. I can understand how Hitler came into power and disagree with it. As you (hopefully) can now see, the two don't correlate. Also, I hope you do realize that you're implying that you think that your argument is flawless and that I

[ebbyeb]

Should simply just "go along" with it. The way you implied this (since I already know you're going to ask) is in saying "That means you really didn't understand my argument since its not so much an argument as a statement of fact." Try to think of this from my perspective, you're basically saying "yeah, I'm right even if you disagree with me." Which strikes me as rather arrogant behavior.

Yes, us humans being who we want to be and expressing ourselves freely is exactly what this MyTake is about. She's simply saying that "gee, it'd sure be nice if society was more accepting in this particular sense." We're nowhere near doing anything "practical" yet. And that's not even the point. I doubt anything "practical" in this manner could ever take place unless all the arrogant, ignorant, and close-minded people in this world suddenly changed. (It's not going to happen anytime soon.) Not to gloss over the 5 or so paragraphs that you just made, but they're completely unrelated to anything

[ebbyeb]

currently being mentioned. This was never meant to be anything practical from the get go... You don't seem to understand that. Again, the author was simply saying a "gee it'd be nice if..." And yes, I agree that it'd be nice. Again, nobody is saying anything about every guy in existence dropping their masculinity at the drop of a hat and devoting their lives to wearing lipstick and walking around in pumps. Nothing in the article said that, and it surely wasn't ever implied. The only fashion in which it was ever implied, again, was in a "gee, it'd be nice if guys who were suppressed in behaving in this manner, who truly wanted to, could express themselves in such manner."

As for what you said about gender roles, I already explained how you used it incorrectly and I believe I even included a quote in such.

Okay. You're completely derailing from the original topic. You're now explaining gender inequality. That's unrelated. This MyTake was only pointing out that men shouldn't

[ebbyeb]

feel suppressed by society to behave in fashions that are typically deemed to be more "feminine." You're dragging all kinds of other societal issues into this, sexism, gender inequality, gender in terms of manual labor... Again, that's not being mentioned in this MyTake at all. Those ARE terrible problems that are complicated and I truly wish could be fixed, but have nothing to do with this debate. I don't know how you got so far off track.

Yes. You're right. You never directly stated that you thought that every women was exactly the same, but that's what you implied each time you mentioned any type of response a women would potentially evoke in the presence of, what I'm assuming you've imagined, a man that's extremely feminine. (Again, never directly said in the MyTake.) So what else was I supposed to understand that being? Yes, you DID state that "women would not allow it," AGAIN, you're grouping half the human population. Please elaborate on how you're not doing that,

[ebbyeb]

because, and this I WILL claim to be a fact, you indeed ARE. However, I DO understand that you don't meant literally every woman on this earth... BUT, that's not what you're saying in that. If, however, you said "your typical woman most likely wouldn't accept a seemingly overtly feminine man, from what I've observed from my own personal experiences." Then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But AGAIN. That's not what you said. ✌🏼️. This is yet another example of what I was saying when I UNDERSTAND something, but don't AGREE with it. I actually just helped you rephrase your train of thought in a more eleborate and specific manner. To dispel any potential confusion. If that train of thought isn't what you had in mind, please let me know and/or explain in your own words what I might've slipped up on or, simply restate what you meant.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb How are you not speaking on behalf of anyone? You are dictating what men should and should not be able to do, you are trying to suggest that some how men, enough to warrent making the statement, want to act girly and feminine and they should be allowed to do so. Thats speaking on behalf of men. Their is no way around that. While I personally don't care what an individual does the fact is males are male for a reason, their is a reason male behavior is associated with males, because we are naturally drawn to it. Suggesting otherwise is idiotically stupid. The amount of men who are into the feminine are incredibally small, why would you cater to them instead of the majority? Thats absurd. What it is is that you simply do not like masculinity. Why tell men they should act like women whats wrong with men acting like men? Yes, I know you didn't "tell" them to, but you and the mytake author are pushing for it.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb So why not just presume that the way men act is the way they want to act and go from there? Why presume that the majority or again a large enough population that requires you to make these arguments to begin with, want to act feminine but don't because of some kind of social pressure, why not presume that they are behaving the way they want (which is a far more logical approach) and then go by an individual basis? So again, you are trying to act as if this is the majority when in fact they are in the minority, by a large margin. Why do you feel the need to remove masculinity from society? Whats so bad about being masculine that you would encourage men to act like women instead? I am not advocating for women to act like men, I am not saying that all/most/many women secretly want to act masculine. The reason is because why would I? I have no problem with women acting any way they wish however I don't hate feminity so much that I would try to discourage it either.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb As for your "all women act like x" argument, no one ever said that, not once so please stop trying to use a straw man argument. I stated that most men do not wish to behave this way and the ones who do will almost certainly not because women would never except it hence women by and large preffering men who are more masculine in behavior (as the vast majority of men can attest to as those who do not fall into that catagory don't get dates). So you admit you have no facts, so what are you going on? Feelings? Feelings don't matter, you can feel as much as you like but it will not alter reality in any way shape or form. So whats the point of thinking with feelings exactly? As for your claims of individuality its a non argument. Sure we are all individuals but we function in a specific way, just because I am an individual doesn't mean I have three arms and reproduce by budding. Who cares about individuality, in this particular context it means absolutely nothing.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb In fact you claiming that men should feel free to act feminine shows individuality doesn't mean a thing, again in this context. How can you have feminine if all women are individuals and do not operate alike? Clearly their are very clear and common trends in behavior that are associated with women and those that are associated with men and unless you have some insane idea that these behaviors are not biologically driven, that is some how every one started acting this way for no particular reason and continued to behave in such a fashion for no particular reason all the way up until now where people who accepted this behavior for no particular reason are now forcing it on others again for no particular reason, to claim that their is a significant enough men out their who secretly want to act feminine (because apparently being masculine is so detestable that we should encourage femininity) why make the satement?

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb Their is a reason society has opinoins on behavior, its because it increases happiness in general (with some exceptions since deviation is uavoidable if uncommon) and it increases productivity. Look at what happened when we socially engineered women to act more masculine, we got more single mothers, more children born out of wedlock, more divorces and broken homes which in turn created more broken people as these situations increase the probability of substance abuse, suicide, divorce later in life, promiscuity (thus perpetuating the problem), depression (women are actually less happy now then they where in the 50s according to studies), and increased probability of criminal behavior (80% of all convicts are from single mother homes). It didn't improve anything did it? This is why facts, not feelings are important when discussing these things.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb Society isn't some evil monster that oppresses itself, its a set of rules and guidlines meant for optimal happiness, to maximize benefits to itself (i. e. the people in it) and minimize damage.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb As for your claims about me being arrogant, no I am not I was in fact stating the facts, but even if I was being arrogant would it matter? Now I can sit here and say your moral grandstanding/virtue signalling, the currently quite popular game of trying to prove who is more accepting and more moral then others in order to increase standing and gain that ever desired pat on the back by society. Looking for victims where their are none in order to portay yourself as a hero, kind of like when soldiers actively try and collect medals, its not because they care about any one its just to boost their standing. I could say that this is what it looks like to me, but would it even matter? The asker presented an argument, I refuted it, you tried to defend it, I refuted that as well. Thats all. I only care about the truth and the betterment of society and flowery words and removal of customs/culture/rules at whim isn't going to benefit anyone.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb So again, telling men to be feminine isn't necessary because in our current society its allowed, their is not one single law stating otherwise, and yes people will cast judgment as is there right just as its your right to cast judgment on them, however as its such a small population its rather irrelevent to even state it because its a non issue as their simply isn't a large enough population. As for your claim of "grouping", well sure, no more then you have done, but I am doing so on the basis of what women have chosen over and over again. Their is a reason why men act a certain way, both from an ancedotal and statistical position as well as evolutionarily speaking. It seems odd that you would claim other wise, do you not think men preffer feminine women? If you don't think thats the case act masculine dress masculine and get your hair cut in a masculine way and see if you get any attention (their is a reason why women wear make up and the hair styles, clothes that they do).

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb Again, it was fairly obvious that I was not reffering to all women, it was a generalization, again I believed that those who would read this comment would be intelligent enough to figure out that I was not making an absolute term as it is almost never the case, was I wrong in that assumption? Should I presume that you and the asker where talking about all men then? That you where saying all men should feel free to act feminine even if they don't want to? She/you didn't specifically state otherwise so this must of been what you where thinking right? See how absurd a statement that is? As for all the problems, I mentioned them because you mentioned gender roles and women being oppressed by them and I was pointing out that in fact it was the exact opposite through out all of history, that men had no leeway and women did and pointing out that it still applies to this day, so yes it was relevent to the statement you made.

[LogicBomber]

Please stop this social justice nonsense.

Women don't get the short end of the stick in western society.
Men are abused EQUALLY but it is ignored and 70% of non-reciprocated abuse if female to male.
* 286 scholarly investigations https://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Women have more options for jobs, and are given bonuses and preferential acceptance if they pick jobs generally chosen by men, but the opposite is not true.

Men are just as sexualized as women but again no one cares when it's men.
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../...ed-more-than-women.html

You are right though... men do have more strict social rules to follow. Women wear practically nothing in public (even around children), skin tight, see through, open and flowing exposing genitals clothing... https://i.imgur.com/iCTjno7.jpg

Where as men are expected to have some dignity and cover their sexual parts.
The need to "wear a dress" isn't something men "desire" and those who do wear kilts without issue or scorn. But why is there this social justice push to try and demasculinize men? We are not "afraid" of being feminine... there is just no need for it. Masculinity is what has allowed our society to thrive and survive since cave men.
Men are not afraid to "show emotion" we just simply handle emotion differently than women.
We don't fear ridicule for being feminine, we just don't want nor need to be feminine.
But because females can only think like females, sjw's have this nagging need to try and tell us how we feel and think and should act, without ANY understanding of how we actually think or feel.

I don't know a single male who doesn't have a pastel, pink or purple dress shirt. It isn't that big a deal. Most males I know who go to the gym, shave their legs... but those who don't aren't "afraid" it makes them gay... they just don't want to do it.

Female happiness has been on the decline steadily over the last 50 years... the reason is a lot of this sjw crap. https://www.nber.org/papers/w14969

So instead of trying to convince everyone to be how YOU feel they should be... let everyone just be who they are ffs.

[Browneye57]

Here here! A voice of reason.

[TornadoCreator]

No, I'm afraid it's not OK to be girly. If you choose to cross-dress, that's entirely up to you and I won't ever take away that right; but know that what you're doing is unusual. It's not normal and it should never be normal.

We are a gender dymorphic species. Our genders are different; biologically, physically, and psychologically. Men and women may have some cross over in the way they think; but we should be embracing our differences.

Feminist spent so long teaching women that being feminine was wrong and that they where oppressed, that far too few women embrace their femininity; and that's a crying shame. A feminine woman is a beautiful thing.

Now modern feminism is teaching that men who act masculine are somehow brutish and sexist. This has gone beyond silly attempts at social control now, and gone into full blown man-hatred. Fuck feminism, I will be as masculine as I damn well please.

I don't want a society with feminine men and masculine women as the norm. We don't live in backwards land. It's not oppressive for men to be men and women to be women, it's fucking normal! The oppression comes when you make laws that discriminate depending on gender; and it goes both ways. Society should be equal in opportunity sure, but we shouldn't be pretending that both genders are identical. They're not. We don't think the same, feel the same, act the same; and we never will. Understanding and RESPECTING out gender differences is true equality. Pretending they don't exist, or demonising them as sexism is not equality; it's wilful ignorance.

[bedroomdweller]

"When it comes to gender roles, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to relationship abuse, jobs, and sexualization. "

Stopped reading there.
Women do get the short end of the stick when it comes to relationship abuse... by other women! Yes, most cases of agression and abuse, including sexual abuse, are made by bisexual and lesbian womrn. Men do not make the majority of abusers as it is usually portrayed.
Jobs? Elaborate. What are these disadvantages when it comes to jobs because I fail to see those...
Sexualization. Yes, women are more sexualized than men in the media but it doesn't mean Magic Mikes don't exist or that men don't want to be seen as more sexually appealing... or even that women don't want to look sexually appealing. This statement is very ambiguous.

As for men being allowed to be "feminine". Ok, whatever... they still look like clowns to me but if it's their thing to get that sort of attention who will stop them anyways. SJW's and feminists seem to be quite happy with feminine men and white knights anyways...

[JohnSmith627]

Excellent response. I thought the same exact thing when I read her "women get the short end of the stick..." statement, I even laughed.

[JohnSmith627]

I'll rate your article:

1. You asked the readers to imagine a scenario with both genders wearing opposite clothes. You then attempted to reason why it's also "odd" for women to wear pants by referencing irrelevant historical context that doesn't apply to today whatsoever.

2. You claimed that "women get the short end of the stick when it comes to jobs" with no support, zero evidence, and no reasoning.

3. You then provided irrelevant and unverifiable anecdotal evidence about an umbrella scenario to further your narrative. (PS: anecdotal evidence is useless).

4. You then tried making the argument that men are even more affected by archaic masculine stereotypes by doing two things:
• Vaguely claiming that a man participating in a dance class will be labeled as gay, but you failed to include that it depended on what type of dancing it was. Men that want to participate in feminine dancing (such as ballet) are an extremely small minority.
• You then included that men wearing skirts are labeled as a "weirdo", yet men that actually want to wear skirts are very likely only 1.8% of the male population (gay males).
• ^ These two pieces of evidence to support your argument that men in general are "afraid" of being ridiculed only apply to a small minority. Overall, this portion of the article had insufficient reasoning.

Conclusion: I understand that your thesis was that men should be able to wear whatever they want without the fear of ridicule, but you formulated your argument horribly.

[kilowatt04]

Best thing I've read in awhile regarding fashion and gender roles. I dress super girly whenever I can cause it's just what fits me, and I wish I could be free from judgment for it, but I feel like the subject of a damn witch hunt sometimes. And people say stuff is gay like being gay was the worst possible thing, when who cares. And they assume I'm gay, even though I am not gay the way they think since I am not attracted to men, but I'm definitely not masculine, and again who cares? This wimpy girly dude will defend peoples' respect and peoples' lives more than a lot of "badass" guys, and so will some women I know. That is at least when I'm not having a total depressive meltdown, and no wonder I do from time to time.

[north2south]

thanks for your comment and support! I've been getting a lot of negative stuff on this is nice to see a supportive comment!

[FýrdracaDócincel]

I didn't realize fruity drinks was associated with being womanly. Oh well.. *continues to chug down apple cider*

I touched on this sort of thing in the MyTake I made many moons ago. A lot of what society considers "feminine" is a little ridiculous. I mean, I've had girls automatically assume I'm gay because I'm, quote: "not an asshole" or I'm "a gentleman."

... what?

Ironically, just about every girl who said that about me eventually ended up liking me. But still, the fact that they would come to such an assumption just on the basis that I'm not some loud douche is a little ridiculous to me.

[Infynis]

Apple cider is a bit different. It's more associated with beer. She's talking about things like fruity cocktails and things like that.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

@Infynis Not sure I've had a cocktail but okay.

[north2south]

This stand up explains it pretty well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vElRxQNh5SU 😂

[FýrdracaDócincel]

@north2south Okay... just spent a good minute or two on the floor.

[Tdieseler]

You know, I've seen a lot of takes by females and over 50% of them are shit... this? this right here? IS THE shit.
I've always thought the same thing, thats why guys like me... i dont give a flying EFF... what i do or wear. I dont try to be masculine or feminine... im just me... and me knows me.
Maybe im more masculine... well.. thats just me, i grew up in a female house... i got masculinity Beaten into me.. when i went social.
Now, im called an Alpha male... i still dont know what that is, i swear, every time i hear that, i think Werewolf (lol)... im just a male. and i dont wear that frilly stuff because i think its fabric overkill... but i do rock THE HELL out of a pink shirt... yea.. real men can rock pink.

[ebbyeb]

Ahahaha! Nice

[Tdieseler]

@ebbyeb thank you.

[Infynis]

I feel this take on a deep level. When I first started really getting into dressing nicely, I would delete my search history, like I had been looking up porn, after searching for something like how to tie a scarf. I was terrified someone would find out I was interested in that kind of thing. I got over it though, and now I wear bright pink pants regularly, and bought myself a great pair of gloves for this winter.

[north2south]

thank you so much for commenting and putting in your experience! as you can tell I've been getting A LOT of hate for this my take so far, its nice to see some positive stuff.

[hausmeister1707]

Why is how to tie a scarf unmanly. Men wear scarves too. Literally no one gives a damn is you want to dress more formal.

[hausmeister1707]

So anything that validates your point is positive?

[ninjast4r]

I don't think it's expressly dealing with the stigma of femininity, but rather the hassle it takes to go through with being pretty. I have no problem expressing my feminine side, but I'm not going to wear a skirt or make up because f*ck that noise. That's why women dress masculine, because they get fed up with all the hassle it takes to be 'pretty'. They're not making a statement. Guys are supposed to be practical, so being willfully illogical is insanity. Why would a guy spend hours putting on makeup every day, spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars at the salon getting his hair did, and walking around in four inch stilletto heels? That doesn't make any damn sense to me.

[SunsetStar]

I've known some guys who enjoyed things like makeup and pretty fingernail polish and things like that. Personally, I have some days I want to wear makeup and paint my nails, and some days I don't want to bother. (I would also point out makeup both costs a lot less and takes a lot less time than most guys think.)

[Jager66]

"When it comes to gender roles, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to relationship abuse, jobs, and sexualization"

Nope. Being blind to men's issues =/= women have short end of stick.

The rest of your take was really good though.

[north2south]

Thank you. But also I did not mean that men aren't victims of relationship and sexual abuse, just that women are more often effected by it. You guys are at a disadvantage when it comes to actually convicting rapists- women are taken more seriously when they make a rape accusation, but men are laughed at. So there is a big problem there.

[SvetlanaSavachenko]

I think it's a double standard. If we're allowed to wear pants, t shirts, no makeup and androgynous footwear why can't guys wear dresses, makeup and heels?

I personally don't wear pants, I'm the definitive girly girl but it's my choice to be that way. No one is telling me I have to be it's just who I am.

I think it's such a shame that we as a society have to judge people based upon how they dress.

[ebbyeb]

Preach sister!

[SvetlanaSavachenko]

@ebbyeb Thank you!

[cth96190]

@north2south
Almost everything that you described would be classified as the activities of a cross-dressing faggot.
Believe it or not, I know a few gay guys. It is impossible to work in the news and entertainment media without meeting a lot of homosexuals.
They have told me that, in the gay world, effeminate cross dressers were considered to be at the bottom of the food chain and were ridiculed by other gay men.
Go ahead and date a skinny-pant-wearing social-justice-warrior mangina if that is what floats your boat, but expect him to scream louder than you and dance about like a frightened girl if you ever need to be protected.

[flatline]

*Sigh* This may come as a shock to you, but women and men are actually different. Men represent masculinity, not femininity thus there's absolutely zero reason for a dude to express himself that way. A real man should embody late 19th-Early 20th Century masculinity. He shouldn't be acting as a quasi-female.

As per your point about gays, and being "badass" it really has nothing to do with it (disregarding the fact that being a WWE wrestler isn't badass at all). Men simply don't want to wear that type of clothing, because it goes against our belief system of what a male embodies.

It's good that you can embrace your femininity, but on behalf of most guys everywhere we simply have no interest in looking like women.

[ebbyeb]

Okay pal. Gotta say I completely and totally disagree with you. I'm not sure why you interpreted the article in such a fashion that led you to produce all of that unnecessary and, frankly, sexist text... But uh, all the girl was saying is that a man should feel free to express himself and not feel restrained by society.

[notallthere98]

This is so important. Toxic masculinity is a huge problem in our society and contributes to a lot of problems because men are always trying to "prove" how manly they are. I think of more men were fine being a little (or a lot) feminine, it would solve a lot.

[hellionthesagereborn]

So you think their is something wrong with being masculine? Like what, what is toxic masculinity?

[notallthere98]

@hellionthesagereborn Sorry, I should have been more clear on that. No, there is nothing wrong with masculinity in general. Toxic masculinity is basically what the gender roles patriarchy says men should follow. When men are told they should be buff, violent, emotionless, aggressive sex machines and that there is no other option, that is toxic masculinity. Basically forcing men to be over the top masculine, to the point where they are shamed for showing emotion. Especially when it's forcing men who don't want to by super masculine, like guys who want to wear dresses and skirts and makeup but are told they can't because then they aren't "real men".
There is nothing wrong with guys who are super masculine by choice (as long as they are still decent human beings) and genuinely like it, it's just that masculinity can be forced on lots of men

[hellionthesagereborn]

So who said that? I mean specifically when was that stated and who stated that? I ask because I have never heard any one claim that in my entire life except from feminist (I mean if you look historically men wrote poetry, they wrote books on pacifism etc. etc.), also what emotions are shamed and who is shaming them? As for patriarchy, what is your definition of patriarchy exactly? Also I would ask why do you think society would make these demands and do you then think their is such a thing as toxic femininity (after all women are "told" to function in a specific way, does their drive to be feminine create a toxic enviroment or is it only masculinity that does this?)?

[ebbyeb]

@hellionthesagereborn You misunderstand what he's trying to say. He's not saying that there's anything wrong with masculinity. That's not what he's saying at all. He's simply saying that an ALL masculine male population isn't healthy. There's always going to be exceptions when you're talking about such a large summation of people. He's simply saying "yeah! I think that guys who want to be more feminine should be able to express that without being suppressed by society." He never said anything negative about masculinity though. So I don't get where you're getting that from. Try to understand what someone saying better before commenting and showing your ignorance with flying colors.

[notallthere98]

@hellionthesagereborn No one specific person said it, society keeps saying it. Every time you hear "man up", "men don't cry", "don't be such a girl", "did you hurt your vagina", that is society enforcing what the patriarchy says "real men" should be, by shaming men for showing emotion, or for being feminine. If you see a picture of a guy in a dress of a skirt, how many people are commenting calling him a faggot, or saying he needs to stop being such a girl, or saying that "real men don't where dresses", "this is what's wrong with society", "I can believe some people allow this"
(About men writing poetry). Yes, men wrote poetry. Men also used to be able to openly show affection for their male friends, including being able to hold hands in public without anyone assuming they were gay. At the time, things like that were not considered feminine or "gay".
(On what emotions are shamed and who is shaming them) I have a hard time believing you never heard, seen or experienced men being shamed

[notallthere98]

@hellionthesagereborn (continued) for crying, or for being openly affectionate, or being "too sensitive". As for who's shaming them, the answer is again society. Family members, friends, teachers, peers, bosses, co-workers, they all make up this system that enforces male gender roles
(Why does society make these demands) I don't know. It's dumb and needs to stop
(Toxic femininity) To an extent, yes it exists. But not at the same level as toxic masculinity. Women are indeed told to be a certain way, but women can be masculine without being shamed for it or seen as weaker or less. In fact, in some ways it's almost seen as an upgrade. Like, lots of men are into "tomboy" women who are into sports and drink beer and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. Those are all traditional masculine things, and women are almost seen as better for having those traits

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ebbyeb Whats an "all masculine" society? What evidence for this is there and why would it be bad? Is it equally bad to be "all feminine" or does this only apply to men? How is the society patriarcal? As for what he said, he sayed toxic masculinity, doesn't that sound negative to you? What if we stated that our society suffers from toxic femininity? Would that sound postive or negative to you? I am simply trying to understand what he means by it and if its true or simply a misattribution of causes.

[hellionthesagereborn]

What is patriarchy though? Is it only men or are women apart of it as well? Why would we state to man up? Is it to be cruel or is it to the benefit of the person? I mean don't you think its strange that all of society would push for something that is detrimental to itself? What are some positives/negatives to telling some one to man up or toughen up? I mean why would we simply presume that this is patriarchy i. e. men hurting men for no particular reason what so ever? Doesn't that seem strange to you? As for As for gender norms, which I would point out women uphold just as much as men (thus I don't think toxic masculinity is an appropriate term for it) why would they exist? What could be a rational reason for it? I mean again, why care about it if their is no impact or (probably more importantly) a percieved impact?

[hellionthesagereborn]

As for being openly affectionate, are you not allowed to be or are you choosing not to? I'm a hugger, I hug male friends all the time, I hug male coworkers not once has any one ever responded as if it was wrong, in fact they seem perfectly fine with it, so that seems odd to me, again that is personal experience so that doesn't mean its not happening but is it happening because people are against it or because people think others will be against it? Every one keeps saying it so is it a case of hearing it so often every one believes it? Just something to think about. As for the enforcement of these roles, again why would we do that as a society if its harmful? Why is femininity not as toxic as masculinity (when it is toxic I mean)? Why do you think its okay for women but not men to deviate?

[Mr-Kabuki]

here's the problem. women say "men need to be more feminine!" then when ugys actually act feminine, it just turns all girls off. seriously straight women are not attracted femininity they want a masculine man. if you have ever read those 99 cent romance novels, (not saying i have) but they all have exactly what women a want. A manly man who is in a position of power a authority and dominance. then the women want to step in and slowly change the manly man from his stoic state and open up his feelings. but if a guy comes off as a sensitive fucker straight away, then he loses. seriously dont listen to feminists about having to be girly. be whatever you feel like,

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Men do exactly what you describe when they are comfortable in a relationship. The ones that give a fuck about their appreance are trying to attract a mate.

Problem doesn't lie in being straight and dressing like a fag. The problem lies in everyone ELSES perception of men.

Southpark nailed it with Tweek and Craig. Just because they were labeled gay they were unable to break the stigma so EVERYONE just assumes they are gay. Blame the faggots for appropriating rainbows and bright clashing colors and womens attires into their culture, not straight men.

[Anonymous]

I check out crossdressers quite often. I wouldn't find either of those options weird. lol

I disagree with some of the minutia but agree with the point in it's entirety. Not saying men should do it, but society shouldn't so abrasive to those that do.
Even if a guy wanted to do it privately, most wouldn't be able to. You are exception. Most other girls would not be okay with that if they found out even if a handful of girls on the page claim otherwise.

That aside, I have shaved my legs/underarms and even painted my toenails recently (too much? lol). I've been thinking about dressing up a little. Not regularly and I don't think I would look very good, but it seems like fun. I don't claim it to be a manly thing to do. Quite the opposite for me actually. That's the point.

[Aizou]

Funny thing, makeup was originally designed for men. That aside, I completely agree, being forced into gender roles are somewhat silly.
#genderrolesin2k17

[RedThread]

It would be really cool if that could be a reality. Culturally, we still see femininity as being weak and masculinity as being strong. Strength in men is seen as being sexy and dominant and all that. That is still primarily the attractive quality that is sought after. It's gotten to the point where I feel like I should hide certain aspects of myself so as not to appear too girly or feminine. Although I will admit women seem to accept it far more than men do.

[hausmeister1707]

Males in general physically and mentally stronger. Thats why they have a protective providing role and women are more emotional and caring. I don't understand why would you want to "mix" them it's just pointless.

[RedThread]

@hausmeister1707 I think it's more about being ourselves and not being afraid of that. Gender normative behavior makes us conform instead of being free to be individuals. It isn't fun to have to conform to stereotypes.

[hausmeister1707]

Okay. Just to be clear. Most men like to be manly. They don't want to be feminine. And generally they are confident enough to be themselves. And you people are saying that teaching men to be men is somehow a bad thing which i don't see why.

[RedThread]

@hausmeister1707 I never said that. I'm only saying people should be themselves whether that's traditionally masculine or feminine. I'm not saying people should be what they're not.