And this is a "Conservative" forum? This is a "Conservative" view? That somehow, while women have women's issues. While they can define feminine traits and behaviors. While they can talk about obstacles and challenges, men can only talk about having a dong?
How did the supposed left and the supposed right unite to destroy the idea of masculinity? Did someone put something in the water? Aren't "Conservatives" supposed to be defenders of these old established values and principles? I would imagine most of you guys follow Jordan Peterson. Why would most of you stuff cotton into your ears when he talks about uniquely masculine traits and ideas?
And why is it only women whom see capable of identifying a need for masculinity. That if we do not have societies that value masculinity and that can define masculine traits, we will perish. This whole notion that a penis is the only thing defining manhood is what is killing young males. No wonder so many of them seem lost. No wonder they are frustrated and don't know what traits to embody to attract women. They have been lied to. They have been told they simply need to have a penis and things happen magically. They are not given a template or a matrix to emulate. They are not even encouraged to explore for themselves what it means to be a man. Because too many are told that being a man is no different than being a woman. And their sexual organ defines their issues and challenges.
It is complete and total nonsense. So when did this crap happen?
Masculinity should be defined in terms of values and ideals as I see it (and I think that's where you're coming from as well), including responsibility, accountability, integrity, resolving needless conflicts, wisdom, courage: the competent leader, loyal husband, benevolent father.
What I suspect, and maybe I'm biased a bit since I was raised a lot by a single mother, is that many boys are no longer taught such values. I wasn't taught them growing up so I turned to action heroes and the like, as well as my immature friends who'd tease each other all the time, to try to figure out what it meant. And all I understood at a time, in a nutshell, was courage against primal fears. So became an adrenaline junkie thinking that being unafraid of danger and physical confrontation sufficed to be "manly".
Meanwhile, I still had a nasty temper that got me into trouble and I didn't really understand true accountability as a teenager. For example, if I was hit by a car on the way to work, I would argue and complain if I was reprimanded instead of realizing that I still failed in my responsibilities and let other people down either way. It wasn't until I gained a leadership position later on and saw things from the opposite end that I finally understood true accountability of the sort that requires taking responsibility even for things beyond our immediate control.
As for the anger issues, I started getting over them studying Stoicism, and that was my best substitute for the absence of a father in those troublesome teenage years. I keep quotes like this very handy since I still have that tendency to think negatively at times and fuel the anger (though these days I've come to quickly challenge those thoughts and regain composure):
"To be moved by anger is not manly, but courtesy and kindness, as they are more agreeable to human nature, so also are they more manly; and he who possesses these qualities possesses strength, nerves and courage, and not the man who is subject to fits of rage and discontent. The nearer one's mind is to freedom from anger, the nearer it is to strength, and as pain is a characteristic of weakness, so also is anger. For he who yields to pain and he who yields to anger, both are wounded and submit." -- Marcus Aurelius
But I think this trend might be an issue with how many of us are no longer raised with father figures around to teach us this stuff, and the schools are hardly teaching this either anymore (in fact, sometimes I think they're trying to teach the precise opposite).
>> If the father is not in the home, the boy will find a father in the streets. I saw it in my generation and every generation before me, and every one since. If the streets raise you, then the judge becomes your mother and prison becomes your home." -- Denzel Washington
And I think that type of problem starts to normalize a whole new idea of "masculinity" which is just like testosterone absent values and an ideal to temper it.
It's very true. The West is overly feminized. Let me preface this with: I love women. Women are awesome. Life wouldn't be worth living without them.
But. We require balance. And boys need to be taught how to be men, by real men. Not by women. And around 30% of children growing up are in single mother homes. Mix in social standards of viewing masculinity as innately evil, we view our little boys as defective girls, and try to teach them the proper ways to behave as girls, not boys. It damages them. And it damages women, too.
But it *reeeeeally* damages little boys. Men have to be strong, because we are more isolated. We have to be more self-sufficient. I'm not saying women can't be or aren't. But comparatively, men are supposed to be the rocks. Women can get away with relying on social safety nets or friends or family to support them. But men are instinctually expected to support themselves. This can get a little out of hand in highly masculine environments, with dads not wanting to go to the hospital even when they're spitting up blood, trying to pretend to be strong. But that's the point--there needs to be balance.
And there is no balance in the West anymore. Femininity is dominant. And too much of either is a bad thing. Too much masculinity, people get killed. Too much femininity, no progress is made and people decay--when compassion and empathy overrules reason. It's more important to identify with others these days than it is to notice our flaws and work on them. That leads to weakness and degredation.
Awesome response! It basically boils down to this, either define yourself or be defined by others. We are constantly being told about these negative traits that are associated with being a man. So we are unable to articulate a vision to young men about what it means to be a man in a positive light.
The only thing that gets talked about is violence, misogyny, anger, and loneliness. No wonder so many join extremist groups and become "White" supremacists or "Black" separatists. No wonder they become incels and outcasts. Because they have no positive matrix to identify with.
And the weird thing is that this is happening the West. . . under the guise of. . . Conservative principles.
Did you hear about the American Psychological Association recently coming out with a statement saying that "traditional masculinity is a mental disorder"? They're not even bothering to hide it anymore. Just a few years ago, it was "toxic masculinity" which was evil. Now it's just outright "masculinity is a mental disorder."
And yes, as you say. There is no positive masculine matrix to identify with. You can only identify with women. But since you will never be treated the same way as a woman, what is a guy to do? Go insane, really.
They do tend to forget that protecting and self-sacrifice are also masculine traits, yes.
I'm not sure what you mean by happening under the guise of conservative principles. It seems much more to me to be enforced by liberalism, specifically, the idea of political correctness and adherence to feminist doctrine. I say that as a far leftist.
Err. I'm not sure I understood. Could you expand on the conservative principles?
The thing is that guys on here get offended as easily as feminists in memes. I'm tired from all these discussions about what is "masculine" because I get jumped at for believing that a man should be able to defend himself, for example. I guess other women here are tired from that too.
Also, I remember a woman who made a myTake about what defines masculinity in her opinion, and while I agreed with most of her points, I saw a lot of comments from dudes bashing her. Because how dare she as a woman define masculinity!
I don't mind you having an opinion. The point is that it counts as much as my opinion when it comes to feminine issues. I don't know what it is like to be a woman. You don't know what it is like to be a man. We don't have many conversation about masculinity besides the few I started. There maybe several others floating around. But most men here at GaG can only feel their masculinity with respect to women. Which is why there are so many men starting threads on feminism and how much they hate it.
It is like. . . what?
As for the lady who started the take, I would have read it honestly and gave an honest opinion about it. A lot of guys at GaG are not here to be honest. They are here to troll. I am sure it was a bit embarrassing for the guys, seeing they have never thought about their masculinity beyond whining about Emma Watson.
It's not like I'm ashamed of having an opinion, it's just that I'm tired of pointless arguing.
You make a good point, there are lots of trolls. There are also many dudes who I feel like are disconnected with real life and how life outside of the internet works. But this is another topic.
Well I see it's usually women fault that men are not masculine or real men anymore. Because if some dominant woman is his mother, he is usually just comfortable marionette. Fortunately there are still some mothers who grow up masculine real men
Father can be henpecked husband as well, especially if his mother was dominant. They often afraid to do something against woman, because if they divorce he will see his children rarely or not at all. Many women who I know changed their "angel" personality after they gave birth, because then they know, man will try to adapt because of child (ren)
I want to say first that, I don't think German men have the same issues as American ones.
But that henpecked husband had a father. Men have brains. A lot of men, especially ones here, pretend they have no choices when it comes to women.
Of course that is a lie.
A man can choose to have sex and have a child with a woman who is a lying manipulating piece of trash. Just because he wanted to do the sex part. If he chooses not to have a say in that child's life that is his choice. And if that child is a boy, that boy will never have a relationship with his father. He will be left in the care of his mother. And if she chooses to take out her issues with the father out on him. If she chooses not to care for him or just do the bare minimum, then he grows up without an image of what a man is, what a father is and what masculine traits are. He will get his matrix from whatever source he can. From the media, from his friends, etc.
And the media and our society is full of racist stereotypes, weird masculine images, dudes running around guns, no emotional depth, etc.
So many dudes here, think they are so far away from the masculine ideals for sexuality and attractiveness. Where do you think they would get such an idea? It is like no one put any effort into them to explain what being a man is about. And they all seem to see themselves as an actor in a hollywood movie where they are always attracted to a woman who will not give them the time of day. If they had the ability to think about what masculinity is or should be for them, this nonsense would stop.
But this is how they see themselves and you can't get them to stop with the delusion.
I don’t know of anyone defining masculinity as strictly having a penis. I mean, if you want to talk about the black and white biological facts, then yes, I can see an argument from that end. Aside from that, it’s all about how one conducts himself as to whether or not he’s masculine. I believe that’s what Jordan Peterson is saying at the end of the day. Don’t be afraid of hard work, don’t be afraid of pain and suffering;that is life. I think what Jordan Peterson is saying is to take on responsibility and duty, rather than happiness, as the focal point of your life. I would agree with Jordan’s take, but would like to add in a few other things as well for a solid prescription to men specifically on how to conduct themselves as men/leaders. I’m not saying women cannot follow these tenements as well, but perhaps there needs to be a more tailored prescription to women, different from men, because men and women are indeed different. I think certain things can apply to both men and women, but masculinity and femininity are both unique and require tailored responses.
But that's always the thing. We have always talk about the fact that many women can emulate these traits. That ain't the point.
We know there are things uniquely feminine. So why would pretend there are not issues that are uniquely masculine? And when did it become fashionable at GaG to erase manhood from the conversation.
These guys think it is actually masculine to claim a penis is all that is required. As though, a guy who has done selective surgery, taking hormones, doing everything he can to be a woman should be treated as a man.
What is the point? Why should we confuse young men and boys and make the claim a transgender is still "masculine"? That is just messed up. We are men. And we should not be ashamed to talk about what makes us men.
I am not saying that Jordan Peterson alone. In fact, just taking another man's opinion on how you should live your life is probably one of the most un-masculine things you can do. But masculinity exists and I love the fact that he is not afraid to talk about what he thinks being a man is about.
Scientifically, human biological gender is defined by the congenital presence or absence of a penis.
Having a penis is what makes somone male. However, masculinity in my opinion defines a set of traits that are typical in adult males.
While there may be some cultural differences in specific behaviors that define masculinity, it's all based on certain predispositions to such behaviors due to genetic, phisiological, psychological, and environmental factors.
My point is that people look at only a very small and narrow aspect of masculinity as the definition of being a man.
Because masculinity isn't static and has changed dramatically over the past 300 years. A macho man used to be a guy who wore lots of mascara, high heels, nylons and had perfectly curled locks of blonde hair. Now, a bunch of dummies think that being masculine is under attack, when in fact it's just in the process of changing again, like it always does.
What is masculine in some societies is not masculine in others. And of course, these things change over time.
And if what you say it true John, why do so many people, especially men, have such a hard time talking about being masculine and what are traits they associate with being a man?
Men have a hard time talking about it now because of current masculinity beliefs. 200 years ago during the romantic period men would have talked non-stop about their feelings.
The base requirement is having a penis. But being a man and being masculine takes a lot of character
I think the largest components of masculinity are Duty Honesty Strength Courage.
I agree that many men really think by having a penis they are entitled to a woman.
Men need a ritual, many tribal cultures still have this. Its usually a test or trial. And after you complete it you become a man. And duties are placed on you afterwards
People used to know what it meant to be a gentleman. Real men are gallant, chivalrous, polite, fair. even tempered, unselfish, emotionally strong yet vulnerable, level headed, self motivated, tough, hard working, dignified, honorable, valiant, strong willed, and protective. There were some good role models in 1940 and 1950 movies, as well as 1960s TV. I think of Humphrey Bogart in Casa Blanca, some Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne characters, and many others. Then there were TV cowboys like Roy Rogers and the Cartwright family, for example. With such role models, young boys had no trouble understanding what manliness looked like, even if movies and TV in those days often modeled some toxic aspects of masculinity like aggression. I think good role models today and few and far between. Men are either portrayed as buffoons or emotionally damaged, steroid-pumped killing machines.
You listen to these GaG bimbos to much Roland. If you got it you just wiggle it at them, you got to tease these ladies with it. That's what makes a man. It ain't about having one, but it's about screwing with people because you do. A man should be bold. Own your environment.
i hate how the female interviewer gave credit to women because some girl told that Neil guy that he's full of shit. finding fault with others is not hard but fixing yourself is the hard part. and to me masculinity has got nothing to do with who you are and what you do. being a man shouldn't be associated with being a husband or a father. you can be a homeless old man and still be the manliest of all men. i think masculinity is when you combine your wisdom with your masculine instincts. i always trust my instincts. for example i don't cry and contrary to what these new age men say i feel totally masculine because i don't need to cry and almost nothing can make me want to cry. i think when you're born as a male you've been created to be automatically masculine unless you let the society define you. that way you have to do a lot of stuff that don't seem right to you, like crying
The female interviewer is the one who created this conversation. Why couldn't a man do it?
Why are we sitting back on our heels waiting for women to come and help us define ourselves?
As for what you think is masculine, that is good. I can't say I can agree, but we need more conversations about what we think is masculine and what we think defines us as men.
You are confusing maleness and masculinity. The first question asks, "What makes a man?" This literally requires only being an adult possessor of the XY chromosome pair. That is it.
The second question is "What are masculine traits?" Masculinity refers to traits that society considers "manly." Masculinity is based upon common, but ultimately subjective, criteria. Being a man is objectively based on biology.
Nah. I am not confused. You are talking about what makes for a male. We know that the xy chromosome makes for a male. We are talking about what makes us men. What makes us masculine. Did you not read my question.
And it being masculine is being subjective, then color me subjective. This nonsense that claims my masculinity does not matter must stop.
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