Does having cancer (and dealing with it) make you a brave, heroic warrior, or does it just make you unfortunate?

[Anonymous]

OK, I've asked this question before and what people usually say is that while getting cancer in and of itself doesn't make you brave, fighting it does because chemo and the surgeries are no cake walk. But then again, neither would fighting a jaguar, but just as fleeing from a jaguar wouldn't make you a coward, fighting one when cornered wouldn't make you brave. The "fight or flight" response is hardwired into our neural circutry and if flight is not an option, we're going to fight. In other words, it's not bravey, its instinctual. Fighting a jaguar that had someone else cornered would count as bravery and fighting one for the sake of doing so would just make you an idiot.

Yes, it makes you brave

No, it doesn't

[Cookies_AndMilk]

I kind of wish there were an "it depends" option but I voted yes instead. Luckily for me I haven't had to experience that but both of my grandmas from each side, and a few of my grandma's friends have had cancer. It's a scary thing to deal with but whether or not you decide to fight and be happy or roll over and take it is dependent on you. Something like that can make the 'weak' strong for their situation and the 'strong' weak. If you don't have the mental capacity to deal with this and the emotional strength to overcome then the stress might do you in before the cancer. If you fight constantly and don't give up you have a greater chance of pulling through. There is such a thing as losing the will to live. Several instances have occurred when both people and animals just couldn't handle life anymore and they just died. There could be no physical reason for it either, just some serious emotional trauma and when you lose that will sometimes your heart gives out. So like I said, depends on the individual.

[coconutelixir]

It makes you all of the above in a way. Look at this this way, yes, when you're given a sickness, it's unfortunate, it's unfair, it really sucks, and you can't escape from it... but you have the option to give up or go on, and it takes courage to get through each day of hardship and fight the negative thoughts. You become brave due to your life situation and also due to your choices to keep fighting.

Fighting a jaguar when forced to does indeed make you brave. You can choose to sit there and give up or try. And "cowardice" in such difficult life situations is not like typical cowardice. It doesn't carry shame, it carries sympathy and understanding.

[Asker]

But when faced with death most people will choose stand and fight, so doing so against any deadly threat (cancer or a ferocious feline) is not in any way exemplary or "brave"

[coconutelixir]

Actually, that's definitely not true. I'm a medical student and have personal experience with terminal illness in my family and living with very very ill people... many really get weighed down by depression and disheartenment, especially those who lack a strong support system. It's a day to day battle. There are very strong moments of giving up that family members and friends help the patient combat everyday. There is always the option of giving up, rejecting all life support, and refusing further treatment.

You are looking at bravery in the stereotypical hero-like, save the day, risk your life sorta thing. That's not the only kind of bravery there is. It's a choice you made regardless of anything. May I ask why you decided to ask a question like this and why you feel this way? Do you have personal experience?

[Asker]

My Grandma died of lung cancer and my uncle recently survived a bout with bladder cancer. I'm not saying that if you have cancer you're not brave, but (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) most people do decide to get treated for cancer, so if choosing to fight through it rather than die makes you brave, then by that logic most of the population is "brave" yet bravery is a term used for exemplary people who do willingly go into harms way to help others, but again, anyone can get cancer. That's why I feel this way.

[coconutelixir]

Honestly... and I don't mean offense, because I sense you're a good person, but unless this is coming from someone who has experienced sickness in himself/herself, I think a topic like this is just disrespectful to the millions of those who have fought serious illness. Why argue if its bravery or not in your view? Be thankful of your own health, dude. in my opinion, hero is the term you are thinking of that should be reserved for special instances. I think bravery and courage is an everyday word that every single one of us has achieved at some point, and ill people must have more of it each day to keep going.

[Asker]

Well of course cancer is a terrible thing, I'm just saying that the definition of bravery is "ready to face and endure danger or pain; showing courage." If I got cancer I wouldn't be ready to face it and would be scared out of my mind, but I would still face it because I would have no alternative but death. And no I'm not conflating that term with a hero because a hero is someone who helps others regardless of whether or not they put themselves in danger. As for being disrespectful, both of my relatives afflicted said there was nothing brave about what they did, they just did what they had to to survive.

[coconutelixir]

I understand. I've seen that with sick patients as well, they hear "you're brave" all the time and won't accept it. I guess it's a form of modesty, and it's also partially they feel like there was no better choice though it is a choice. I'm sorry about your grandmother, lung cancer is very very relentless. Good to hear about your uncle. My mother actually recently died of an extremely aggressive terminal illness awaiting a lung transplant and my father is currently battling an advanced stage cancer after a stem cell transplant. On top of that, I'm studying to be a doctor so it's what I see everyday. It's a sensitive subject, and I hate to see people who have lost so much downplayed for what they've been through, but I see that was not your intention.

by the way, your definition actually encompassed what a cancer patient has to fight through which is what I'm saying. Pain. And danger = hazard to health and life sooo. I don't know, I think the definition is spot on for battling illness.

[Asker]

Well, it doesn't actually encompass what a cancer patient goes through because the definition was "ready to face danger or pain" ready=>willing. If you get cancer you're already in danger and probably will endure pain whether you get treated or not. I guess you could argue that they could end their own lives and by that logic they're brave, but also by that logic virtually everyone else is brave because everyone has the fight-or-flight response.

[madhatters4]

having cancer alone doesn't make brave or heroic. It's the fight against cancer that makes a person brave or heroic. A Knight isn't a hero just because he/she wears armor. they are a hero because they do things that are heroic.

[Asker]

Did you read the analogy I posted explaining why that logic is flawed? If you're faced with a deadly threat and flight is not an option, you will stand and fight: It's not a matter of bravery or heroism, it's an instinctive response.

[madhatters4]

it's interesting that you presume to know each person's flight or fight instincts. and even if it is pure fight or flight it does take bravery and get up each day when you are exhausted, in pain, etc... we can agree to disagree but applying evolution and survival of the fittest doesn't aptly address the notion of bravery.

in my opinion, and that's all this is about our opinions, going through long, tedious, painful often hopeless fight against cancer is a brave one

[Asker]

Again, it doesn't take bravery to get up every day if you are exhausted and in pain if it's the only way you can survive. In order for something to count as bravery someone would have had to willingly put themselves in harms' way and do it for a good reason. Willingly putting yourself in harms way for no or a bad reason just makes you an idiot. Again, as tragic as it is, there's nothing brave about choosing to fight when YOUR life is threatened just as there's nothing cowardly about fleeing when that's an option. And yes I know what other people's fight or flight response because we know that it's in pretty much all vertebrates. If you chase an animal (including a person) they'll flee and if you corner them, they'll fight back.

[madhatters4]

so what about people who choose to die when dealing with terminal illness? would the opposite of the person who opts for death or assisted suicide be considered brave for fighting despite receiving a death sentence? I think your perspective is very myopic and lacking empathy of the perspective of person in that position... but oh well

[Asker]

My perspective isn't "myopic and lacking empathy of the perspective of person in that position" it's just analytical. Right now you're using the appeal to emotions debate fallacy. But as I stated before, in order to be brave you would have WILLINGLY had to put yourself in harms way AND for a good reason. You see we portray cancer patients as somehow being brave for choosing to fight but bravery would imply being exemplary (i. e. more than the general population) courageous yet 90% of terminally ill patients decide to get treated rather than give up and die and something that should be obvious by now is this: anyone can get cancer and, as such there is nothing exemplary about enduring pain if it means the chance of saving your own life. You can appeal to emotions all you like but this is all fact.

[madhatters4]

so isn't dealing with cancer as opposed to sitting in a room and letting yourself die placing yourself in harms way? wouldn't sitting in a room and dying be the equivalent of staying out of harms way whereas going into harms way would be the path that forces you to confront the danger in front of you in a way that hopefully can save yourself?

[Asker]

No, dealing with cancer is not putting yourself in harms way because the cancer already put you in harms way.

[madhatters4]

oh well agree to disagree

[Asker]

That's what everyone says when their arguments get routed.

[madhatters4]

whatever you say pal. you're 100% right. make you happy

I still don't think you're right or you made a point that changes my opinion. neither have I apparently. so we'll MATURELY agree to disagree right?

[Asker]

First off, having two sides doesn't imply symmetry and the fact that you won't change your mind after I refuted every argument that you put fourth just means that you're closed minded about the subject and you won't change your mind no matter what evidence or reasoned logic is presented to you (believe me, debating people like creationists and carnists, I've met plenty of people with that mindset) so you're right, there's no point in continuing this discussion. But if you don't mind me asking, why do you seem so passionate?

[madhatters4]

you refuted my argument? yes you had a rebuttle for it but it didn't hold water... in my opinion just as you don't think my argument sufficiently rebutted yours.

that's why you agree to disagree. having said that... I'm done with the matter and you

[Asker]

You said that choosing to get treated for cancer was putting yourself in harms way which is why it was brave and I refuted that statement by saying that if you had cancer your life is already threatened so you're already in harms way and then you said we'll just agree to disagree. That would be like me arguing with someone who says the Earth is flat then showing him or her video footage from satellites that showing that the Earth is round and that person saying "then we'll just agree to disagree."

[AdamThomas]

No. The words "brave" and "heroic" are thrown around so much these days to describe things that have nothing to do with it.

[LightsOff]

A warrior yes, because you're basically fighting through it. But brave and heroic? Not really. Saving a child from a burning building is brave and heroic. A person with cancer doesn't really have a choice. I mean yeah they could end their own life and not deal with it but that's their choice, just because they decide they want to fight through it it doesn't exactly make them brave or heroic. It just means they're dealing with it. Not saying that it isn't strong of them, it most definitely is and I admire them for putting up with such a shitty disease. But I think "heroic" and "brave" are the wrong words to describe them.

[coconutelixir]

Brave doesn't have to equal heroic, but a hero has to be brave. You can tell someone to be brave and face their fears like public speaking, but you wouldn't say be heroic.

I would say a patient fighting illness is brave. It requires bravery.

[LightsOff]

@coconutelixir I never said brave and heroic are the same thing. I still don't think it's brave to fight the illness, I mean they don't have much of a choice. To me, being brave is more about choosing to do something that you're not entirely comfortable with but doing it anyway because it's the right thing to do.

And calling those who are fighting through it brave, implies that the ones who decide to end their life because of cancer are cowards, which I'm not really ok with.

[coconutelixir]

A sick person has the option of giving up, stopping treatment, rejecting life supporting measurements, etc. Considering that, it is a choice to keep going, no? And that choice requires bravery, no?

No it does not imply cowardice on those who choose not to. My original post in response to this says that as well. To choose to fight is brave, to choose not to is understandable. It's an awful twist of fate for anyone to deal with.

[LightsOff]

@coconutelixir I meant that a sick person can't choose to just not get cancer. To keep fighting is admirable yes but I do not think it requires bravery. To keep fighting for your life is a basic instinct most people have, it doesn't make you brave. And I think it does imply cowardice. But clearly we have different views on the definitions and meanings so let's agree to disagree.

[jesse_mcminn100]

if someone has cancer and are fighting it, whether it be leukemia, or metastatic, they are very courageous and have a more optimistic view for the future. Of course there people who are diagnosed and don't want to live past that point because "why bother?" but that doesn't mean they or their family are unfortunate. It just means whomever will catch their friends and family on the "flip side."

[throwit]

You have no choice, brave is going through something scary out of choice. A person who has cancer is forced to go through things whether they like it or not. It's unfortunate

[RedThread]

How you deal with tragedies in life is what determines your heroism.

[Asker]

How you impact others determines your heroism.

[RedThread]

I mean getting cancer to begin with is unfortunate. Not everyone who is brave survives it though and not everyone who handles it poorly dies. It's an insidious disease and sometimes you just have to get lucky and have it diagnosed early.

[Anonymous]

I would assume unfortunate.

[PRVN1]

it only makes you unfortunate