What do you think about Obamacare?

[MaskofInsanity]

or in general, the concept of universal health care?

I'm an exchange student here in the US, and I was talking with some fellow exchange students from Europe. One of their lecturers for Investment Theory distributed articles that basically said that entitlement has driven American society into the deep end. The professor argued that societies with free health care and education (etc), especially in Europe, encourage people to be lazy rather than entrepreneurs.

I found this incredibly interesting, as it seemed a lot of the class agreed with the lecturer and article. I'm curious to what your opinion on more socialistic nations (e.g. Germany, Norway, etc), and Obamacare. Also, what you think about the US having the second highest child poverty amongst developed nations.

I'm not trying to criticise or antagonise Americans, I'm genuinely just curious.

[moaterboat]

The idea that the U.S. should just copy Europe is flawed in a couple of ways.

First of all, Europe and the U.S. are vastly different in more ways that I care to list. What works for one country won't necessarily work well for another.

Second, there is this misconception that everyone safety is keeping people alive is the most important thing for everyone. The fact society operates on a sliding scale with maximum freedom and minimum safety on one end, and maximum safety and minimum freedom on the other. There is no reason for every country to be aiming for the same spot on that scale. Some people care more about safety, and some people care more about freedom. It is only logical that the U.S. should be heavily weighted towards freedom. This allows people to choose to live in the type of society they want. If they prefer a nanny state, the can go somewhere in Europe, if they prefer some freedom at the expense of some safety, there should be a place for them as well.

Third, there is no indication that the typical European method is best in the long term. You can quote all the statistics you want about infant mortality and life expectancy, but that only looks at the benefits. There is no cost analysis associated with those statistics.

[MaskofInsanity]

I was trying to be objective in my attitude towards the situation. I'm Australian, and I'd say we're between both methods somewhere. I merely wanted to know what Americans thought of universal health care.

[moaterboat]

I think that there should be developed nations that don't have it because not everyone likes it and people should have a choice. I also think that the U.S. should be one of those developed nations that doesn't have it

[MaskofInsanity]

Reasons, if possible? Preferably more specific.

[moaterboat]

My reasons are listed in my original answer. There is no reason for every nation on earth to care so much about safety and so little about freedom. I don't like being told what to do any more than necessary, nor do I want to be forced into a bloated and inefficient program against my will. There are many people like me. Our voices should not be silenced and we should have a place with a government that respects our freedoms and our desire to be left alone.

[MaskofInsanity]

So that's it: prioritising freedom over safety?

That's fair. What's your attitude towards the people who are struggling to make ends meet and can't afford health insurance?

[moaterboat]

Well I am one of those people who can't really afford health insurance, not without making severe cuts in other areas at least. I am a 32 year old college student with a part time job. I am too old to be covered under my father's plan, I have been out of the military too long to still be covered by them, and my part time job doesn't offer any benefits. Because of this, I will be forced to pay a fine to the government like a common criminal.

[DutchAtheist]

Health care for everybody is very expensive indeed, but it is an effing basic human right. The same people that critisize the cost of universal healthcare applaud the gigantic military budget. Soldiers by the way that get universal healthcare, just like prisoners. Democrats are great people but man do republicans piss me off, I like America but I dislike the inequality. My country isn't perfect either but at least we try to educate and cure our kids goddamnit.

[MaskofInsanity]

I must say I mostly agree. Australia doesn't provide as great education and healthcare subsidies as the Netherlands, but it's still a great deal better than America. It's just mind boggling that you have people who don't go to the hospital in an emergency because they can't afford the hefty bill they'd get :/

[moaterboat]

It's not a right and it can't be a right. Healthcare is provided by other people, even if you pay for it a medical professional is providing it. In order for it were a right it would be OWED to you, and others would be obligated to acknowledge that right, which means that health care professionals would be required to provide health care free of charge. Basically health care can't be a right unless all doctors and nurses are slaves.

[DutchAtheist]

So if something is a basic right it has to be free? Food, drinking water, education are all basic rights, yet the people that provide it get paid.

[moaterboat]

But food, drinking water, and education are NOT all basic rights.

[DutchAtheist]

What kind of human being are you? Do people even have basic rights in your book?

[moaterboat]

No reason to jump to conclusions or get worked up. I WANT everyone to have enough food, drinking water, education, health care, etc. It's just not a RIGHT. A right can't force anyone else to action. Once it becomes dependent on others, it simply isn't a right, because of the obligation it imposes on others, which means it infringes upon the rights and liberties of the provider. No one can have "right" that subtracts from another's rights.

[RedSmartie]

I disagree with it. I read about how in countries with universal health care they will let you die if they think you are not worth healing. I'm sorry, but death by lack of medical care should be my own decision and not some government agency's. I don't know if it's true but many articles have said that about Britain and Canada for sure.

I do think there should be healthcare reform here in the US. Health insurance is a corrupt business and it should be reformed. You'd be surprised how much cheaper things are if you offer to pay cash as opposed to using insurance. Suddenly shots and x-rays and ER visits are not so expensive.

If universal health care does happen in the US, I think it should only be used to fix problems that the person did not cause. I don't think cancer treatment should be free for a person who got lung cancer from smoking. I also don't think birth control or allergy medicine or abortions or plastic surgery should be free. Those should be elective and paid for with insurance or out of pocket. If a person has a legitimate problem that was not caused by their own stupidity then it should be covered.

[askq21]

You covered everything :). No such thing as a "free lunch" (or healthcare) - paying half of the income as taxes or VAT/salestax isn't really an example of true socialism in Europe. If someone's using a service, directly or indirectly. I'd say US system is good - though it can be improved.

[MaskofInsanity]

Would you be able to link me to any articles/etc about "countries with universal health care they will let you die if they think you are not worth healing"? Never heard anything like that before, quite curious.

[gemglam]

I think its selfish and almost asinine for a country not to want to up lift its members. Free health care and education will never make productive people lazy. That's a fallacy. I do believe that some people here have a lazy (take-the-easy-way-out) mentality not every one is like that. Universal health care is a good idea (all though I don't agree with everything in it) but we should want to help those less fortunate so we can help uplift our country but of course people are just all for themselves.

[htowngeorge]

We already had free health care in this country called indigent health care and it worked fine. That is until illegals overtook us and took advantage of our system. Now they want to dig deeper into tax payers pockets to make up for it. So now illegals are not only taking all the jobs away from legal citizens, they want to add further insult by trying to force everybody to pay for their health care. I'd say the elite are doing pretty good these days paying illegal sub wages and don't even have to give workers health care. I hope everyone knows the illegal alien won't be buying insure, you will be paying his while he goes to your job. This country will continue it's downward spiral until we hit rock bottom. Ask yourself how can a country survive when it's going broke? The illegals in case you haven't noticed drive cars that are on average brand new, some not all, while 50 live in a 2 bedroom house and why? Because they send more than 3rd's of their money back to their home countries and they have no real intentions of becoming citizens here. That's a super huge problem for us because billions upon billions a year goes to their countries where unlike us, they don't believe in banks most of them, banks are for the rich. Instead they hoard and hide their money there. A dollar is only a very small piece and for ever dollar that goes out of our country they print more dollars to replace them. And the pie is shrinking fast. Our economy and our system can't stand the strain much longer. We are in a depression and things are about to get much worse, so be expecting that to happen. The unemployment figures of 7.8 percent that was just reported is a bunch of bull. I've read where There's states in the US that's already hit 23% unemployment and higher and I believe one of those states is Michigan and there is no way possible the employment rate has dropped that dramatically to 7.8 over night. Google it.

[normalice]

i disagree. I think putting a safety net in place that will meet the basic needs people have to survive, in the event that they fail at some endeavor, will ultimately result in more people undertaking riskier endeavors. And usually riskier endeavors that work out well tend to result in a greater benefit to society as a whole.

Removing that 'safety net' discourages people from doing anything risky. This is why people with rich parents tend to do so well. They try and fail and try again, always knowing they can move back into one of their parents' mansions, and eventually they succeed. I, on the other hand, know I have exactly one shot to do things right or it is a lifetime of poverty for me. So I take no risks.

Further, I think anyone who thinks provisions will result in laziness is only describing themselves - "a man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's." Sort of like religious people who think that if there were no god everyone would go on murdering rampages: no, the only people who would do that are the very same religious people who think that.

But, at root, Obamacare doesn't really do much except apply a little regulation to the health insurance industry, which needed regulation. It's not really as big of a deal as the media hype is having everyone believe. But it makes for good television, so whatever.

[peace-love-couture]

I don't agree with universal health care

I feel like healthcare is a privilege and those who can't afford it are likely useless and unproductive people in society and should their fate decide, they may very well be eliminated from our society.

The strongest(most fortunate) survive

I think Americans overall have a sense of entitlement that Europeans and Canadians do not, which is why it'd drive the US into deeper debt. We've yet to address the illegal immigration issue here(unlike Canada, which has a good immigration system) and we'd have a bunch of illegals leeching off of our universal healthcare...

though I have an unpopular opinion and I don't really care to debate or argue about it because I simply don't care.

[askq21]

Just as Darwin said

[kataloso]

To me it breaks down to a couple key things...

1) Like you mention, do social health care and similar gov't-sponsored programs lead to a more entitled society that is less driven to succeed on an individual basis?

2) Even if #1 is not a concern, is the U.S. gov't even capable or effectively running these massive programs? The gov't has already proven their inability to balance a budget, as our deficit continues to soar beyond $$ amounts we can even comprehend. Will handing them the reins to run even bigger programs like health care, which will certainly mean more tax dollars, improve the situation?

Add it all up and the answer is a pretty obvious F*ck No! from my view, but I appreciate the optimism of those who disagree.

[MaskofInsanity]

I agree with this - the massive debt the US is in seems to be the only obvious flaw to enforcing universal health care to me. It's a lot of the other reasons that I truly find flabbergasting.

[wertsdfg]

Our healthcare system has obvious problems that need to be addressed. We spend a much higher percentage of our GDP on healthcare than any other nation, yet the results we get are only mediocre. Don't get me wrong - the acute medical care provided in the US is top notch. It's just that preventative care and access to care in general leave something to be desired. We could also streamline some things, in addition to eating better and exercising more often. Whether or not Obamacare is the answer remains to be seen. I agree that something needs to be done. I'm just not sure that Obama's plan is the right answer.

How are you liking the States, by the way?

[MaskofInsanity]

I agree with you. Every system has issues, but the effectiveness of the health care system in place is undoubtably inefficient.

I'm really loving it. The people are so lovely, and it's a beautiful country (from what I've seen so far). I'm really quite surprised at the privatised nature of everything though - that's a bit foreign to me. While I am enjoying my time here, I don't imagine I could live here.

[wertsdfg]

I'm glad you're enjoying it! I hope everybody is treating you well, even if they're fat and less intelligent than you're accustomed to (that's the stereotype, right?). I'll quit asking questions after this, but could you elaborate on what you meant by "more privatised?" I'm not sure I've heard that description applied to a country before.

[MaskofInsanity]

The stereotype is inaccurate :) Unfortunately, it's the most obnoxious people that tend to speak for whole countries.

Just in term of the institutions - health care, postal system, etc - all seems less government control on things. Also more corporations, and less small businesses than there are in Aus. :) And feel free to ask as many Qs as you like :)

[wertsdfg]

Well, since you gave me permission to ask away, here's a really weird one. You're going to think I'm crazy, but were you named after a 70's pop duo (told you it was weird)? It's just that your writing style reminds me of somebody who used to come here every now and then.

/end weird question

[MaskofInsanity]

Hahaha, yes, you're right. Damn! I can't believe you picked up on that, I didn't know my writing style was so distinctive?

[Dragunuv]

I agree that it does make people lazy. I really don't like my taxes going to immigrants from Europe no offense I'm not disrespecting you I think germans are very hardworking people and belgiums too. But I see a lot of russians who are stuck up in new york and are living off hardworking Americans. but it's not their fault since I know how it likes to want a better future. But I asked this question to some people who agree with this bs medical care. How would you like it if someone when to your house and ate your food and sleep in your bed? you wouldn't like it and it's not Europeans fault it's lazy ass people in America who need to get a job but I also blame the crooks in retail management.

[MaskofInsanity]

I'm Australian. Here, to get the benefits you have to be a citizen or permanent resident - illegal immigrants can't get it as they aren't able to register for tax file numbers, etc.

Anyway, don't you think it's unfair to assume all people who need welfare/health care are lazy and/or illegal aliens?

[Dragunuv]

No unless you are like me and pay ridiculous amount of money on taxes. I don't blame immigrants or have anything against them. I believe that the majority of people who are taking advantage are u.s citizen. I don't believe that someone who has an American express black card should also have food stamp card it's just ridiculous. It's like giving a 5 year old a machine gun to play.

[MaskofInsanity]

So then why not advocate for higher regulation on the distribution of welfare?

[Dragunuv]

Look I'm an American I wish this country would create more jobs and more people would be successful in this country but unfournately you have people who are lazy and want to blame the government. like someone told me that the government is making it's own people lazy seriously you expect me to believe that nonsense. people are lazy because they want to be lazy. but I get mad when Mexican and hndurans get deported for no reason and they are hard working people.

[taster]

I am not opposed to healthcare for all...but this plan is completely f***ed...for starters is pays for 6 years of benefits with 10 years of revenues...I think this lady pretty well says it all...the nightmares of Obamacare are still mostly in the future--->

https://youtu.be/vdnY8r7_fLw

[papercut2]

Are we from the same planet where Germany and Norway are socialist countries?

Just because we have better healthcare and education levels, doesn't mean we're socialists. It means taxes are actually properly injected back into society

[MaskofInsanity]

I didn't say socialist. I said socialistic. I was using it in a non-Lenninist/communist sense.

[askq21]

Government is generally less efficient at operating that private businesses - so the whole notion of getting govt. more taxes out of people to improve society is false.

[papercut2]

I don't see why that has to do with anything I said..