Tradition, family, children and their inheritence.
We cohabited for about 4 years before marriage. I could do that for the rest of my life because I desire to be with him. But we wanted children and a traditional family, and we could also afford it, so we got married.
There is also the fact that divorce is quite rare in my family. I did not expect my husband to just trust me in this day and age, there was just no reason not to. He feels secure with me and my family because of our beliefs. My father has been his father figure for 9 years now. On a purely individual level, being childhood friends helped very much. There wasn't much we didn't know about each other's behaviours.
Overall, people rarely "date" in my family. That is, blind date with total strangers. Most relationships are formed between the children of family friends and business partners. And they usually have known each other for a very long time before LTR and then their marriage. It makes everything a lot easier and keep us away from the mess that is today's dating scene. I'm sure we would be seeing a lot of divorces if we opened up to a larger population.
A rather vast number of people have abandoned practicing the necessary cultural teachings that lead people to successful LTR, let alone marriages. For many of them, marriage is either a "side activity" pursued after 30-35 or a disney dream of love and commitment without responsibilities. Many of them are simply not fit for marriage.
Not to mention the laws that are especially back breaking for men and especially working class men.
You hit many of men’s most major concerns so we’ll I’m somewhat thinking that was scripted lmao.
But in the real you caught me with the “I did not expect my husband to just trust me…” part. I think of marriage as something similar to death… it’s bitter sweet to see someone pass and it hurts remembering them but remembering them though it hurts bring good feelings… marriage is special I. The fact someone was trusting of you enough to place their future in your hands and there was almost nothing you could do to get out of it. Forced to be your best for both of you… that’s not what marriage is these days. I feel people have lost accountability and choose the quick and easy path over the path that’s difficult but at the end your stronger for it. For this reason marriage is off the table for me and with it most of the quality women that ide be willing to marry if the laws were changed.
Yeah you'd be surprised to see how much of my life was "scripted". Traditions are like a script you give your kids to play. It's just that nowadays not all people can afford that. But also living a more "scripted" life is not trendy now. Hasn't been for the past 50 years. People are encouraged to be "anything they wanna be" without even being told how, or whether that statement has any merit or meaning at all. So in terms of behaving and making decisions, they don't teach their kids a lot of what previous generations did, thinking that they're giving their kids "freedom to be their own person" (they are going as far as gender expressions and pronouns for kids as young as 6). But in reality they're just not giving them essential tools to live a very normal life and die a very normal death.
That's so widespread that an extremely ordinary and imperfect woman like myself surprises some men, simply because I like to have a family, children, I had/have a good father and family, and that I actually empathize with working class men when it comes to divorce laws. Makes you think what's exactly happening to society.
There is also the issue of affordability, as I mentioned. I think people are forgetting a huge part of successful marriages has always been financial security. It's not just the changing culture that's hitting the majority of the youth, but the increasingly unaffordable "confused thing" that is marriage in 21st century. Laws are just one part of its risks for a great number of men. And honestly, as a woman who comes from a family of business people, if a man doesn't see that, I wouldn't consider him suitable for marriage. What good is a man, if he doesn't know when he's being ripped off in a deal? Who wants to live with a gambler?
Anyway. That is why I regularly mention "working class and lower-middle class men", because the majority of people fall into those groups.
...
...
Educated upper and middle class people are actually marrying quite frequently. Rate of marriage and also divorce is not lower or much higher among them than it was in 1960s. Part of it is, if they lose their marriage, they usually don't lose everything. Though, middle class people are still far more vulnerable.
But working class men? It was actually not too easy for them even before all these cultural changes, but back then, they managed. Now, not only they themselves aren't growing up learning about their place and role in society as fathers, but their women are also the same and somehow worse. Plus the laws and dangers, and the expenses of living a married life and having kids.
It's expected to see more and more people decide not to marry.
@Mia-Wallace I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just want to comment on your second-to-last sentence, though:
Isn't it more expensive to have children WITHOUT being married?
@Jamie05rhs Children are expensive either way, even considering some tax benefits in America. Statistically, they are obviously more expensive outside marriages because a lot of those kids are living with single parents, mostly mothers.
@Mia-Wallace That's what I'm saying. At least if you're married then you have 2 people sharing the costs of taking care the kid instead of doing it all on your own.
You seem very intelligent. I could raise 2 children on a tight budget or 1 comfortably with my current income but what I’m doing is to make money. When I decided marriage was too dangerous with more risks then rewards I started considering dropping my current career and taking the less pay of being a teacher. Without familial responsibilities I could do fine on a teachers income while enjoying it more.
@Jamie05rhs Yeah.
@VanillaSalt Thanks. I see. It's a shame, to be honest. Not because you're living a single life and enjoying it, but because many men who are choosing such lifestyles could be good fathers.
My husband has one friend who is 36 and well off, but saying single. I usually talk to him more than my husband does, whenever he comes over. He's a great man and I feel happy for him, but sometimes I see him as a father and a husband, and feel it's such a waste. He has a lot of trust issues. But he's rare among his social class.
Your example reminds me of the statistics that married men always work more hours, harder, and sometimes even smarter, as employees. I can also tell you from my own experience employers still usually like and prefer married men to all others, including married mothers.
Familial responsibilities have always been a drive behind social mobility. And women's love and encouragement was always the drive behind a men's willingness to stay responsible and competitive. Something it seems a lot of men don't have these days. Our culture definitely doesn't reward fathers or portray fatherhood in a positive light, despite the fact that, prisons are, for the most part, the house of fatherless children. Children who mostly grew up with their mothers, not fathers.
Are we going to see less people inclined towards breaking out of their class? Are we going to see more children growing up with financially struggling single mothers without any male role model?
I don't know. It's not a good strategy for the working classes. Not in my opinion.
But hey, I am not judging you. I think you know what to do, and I hope you have a very happy life.
Hey don’t get me wrong I’m still looking and I’m willing to risk child support for children and I’m willing to risk women for a LTR but i refuse to sign the paperwork giving the government the right to dictate how much of my money my ex gets. When we’re don’t we’re done you don’t deserve squat. When women were homemakers that didn’t get paid that was different but women work now and I refuse to be a statistic. I don’t trust women enough to believe they won’t fall out of love. A man is always 1 dirty sock on the floor from divorce and that’s not what marriage means to me. It don’t matter if the woman’s worthy because marriage is no longer marriage.
Yeah. Well, how can I really disagree with you? I "like" to disagree. I grew up valuing marriage and mostly making myself ready to be a mother. But I have to try and see the world from your point of view, and I do.
LTR/cohabitating has its merits but also disadvantages compared to legal marriage. But the downsides of getting married is far greater for most men. Your position is completlely understandable.
@Mia-Wallace You're a reasonable person. I respect that.
by the way, I answered your questions on my post. I don't know if you saw them or not.
I'm already married and I love the idea of marriages in general, for me it's a statement of I chose you and want to chose only you and for me it's I will always be yours.
If a man just wanted a LTR I could not accept, I have dreams of being one and only to my man and have him promise me a forever may it be hard and may it be tough. The only thing that could break it is his choice to be with another. At the point I would say goodbye and hope I never see him again because it would be to painful. If you think marriage is not a risk for any human your wrong. My husband would tell me always that once we are married what is his is mine and even before that he wanted me to see what is his as mine, it's hard to view it this way because we had not built that life together yet, after a while I learned to accept his gifts and feel blessed. If our marriage where to end the money I received would go to my girls not me, I don't value money and that's never going to matter to me.
Right now we are in a tough place but better than we have been in a while 12 years going 5 years married. I hope he never stops loving me more everyday as I hope to. ❤️
You know what really funny. I agree with you on what marriage is and it’s value. The idea of someone devoting themselves to only you is ick… romantic lol. But what it’s supposed to be and ends up being are very different. The women like you that value marriage demand it but the women that value the wedding and clout arnt what I want.
I feel that marriage is unfair and wrong. It’s wrong when she can lose interest and leave after 5-10 years and then you have to pay alimony as a man but if you do it you have to… pay alimony… even cheating don’t always stop alimony. I feel that family court and marriages rigged against me as a man. But to get a fine specimen like yourself I have to commit but if I commit I might get the shit stain you know women can be…
Marriages end in divorce 53% of the time. I could live with that if it was 50/50 but no it’s 80% women who file… and it’s not even because they fell out of love as the reason most of the time. Marriage was special when it was permanent I feel that taking away that permanence left it empty of meaning.
@VanillaSalt I completely understand, I also see it as unfair how divorce works and honestly I think it should change from the old ways since women are not as responsible as they once we're emotionally and physically.
I was raised by a very traditional mother with high values in how you act and how life is not fair but you are the one to make your choices fair or not between you and your partner. It is my responsibility to be aware of my faults and mistakes and grow with my partner not look to someone else outside our relationship.
That made me who I am but I also know what I want and understand how imperfect others are and as long as there is no afair or physical abuse we are both responsible of ensuring the wealth of our relationship.
My husband wanted to give me a big fat glamorous wedding, I told him all I wanted was him and the wedding of my dreams was knowing he loved me and wanted me nothing more. He was reluctant but since we could not afford anything huge at the moment he agreed to have a small personal wedding. I didn't want to wait because his dad was aging and he was not well. It's was very intimate and he was very happy we did it. His dad passed away 7 months after our wedding day. He was all he had left in his close family.
It is very risky making a huge commitment like marriage when life can be uncertain in another's hands. You sacrifice a lot too, I would never let my husband become victim to these things I am very logical and rational, I have expressed to him when we had bigger issues that if he ever felt like we were not enough he could go and I would only want half so that I can continue to provide for our children and for him to simply remain their father and supply them with anything they might be needing if I can not. No matter what our children do not deserve the misfortune of divorce and he deserves to live a life and survive. I will never not be apart of his life I already know that.
Sorry for the long text. Haha
This right here is what women lack today. It’s not fair to say women so much as people. Men included are lacking today.
My brother and I were part of a nasty divorce. My step father got him my mother got me. He’s physically violent (not abusive) and I’m far more emotional then a man should be. I’m not going into all the parental failing that happened to make us like this but we reconnect within the last few years and have helped each other to grow. His wife says he’s much more calm and down to earth now that we hang together more especially since with me and his wife he’s down to a 6 pack a weekend or so… Vices ya know… so I 100% believe both feminine and masculine energies necessary to bring up good balanced children. I feel this is provided by the fact now that we’re both grounded in a calmer version of my mother and he’s a crazier version of our father. Since I’m never getting married I’ve been considering dropping my high paying Carter and getting a teaching job. I don’t have to support s a family and i I like working with kids so I guess in a way all this shot happening is opening options for men. Just look at all the men choosing to work basic 9-5s over careers today.
It's true, I have noticed, and I'm sorry you had to go through that growing up. I do agree with people and not just women. Vices definitely do exist my husband grew up hard and has had his difficulties with expressing his emotions, he will do anything to not confront them. Luckily he is going to see a therapist to help him with childhood trauma.
We make our children and they love us in ways some of us don't deserve but they need us because they are apart of us. This is why it's important for both parents to be involved no matter the situation and resolve issues with each other to raise our kids in a healthy manner.
Do what you love, we have one life to learn and enjoy from, wasting it on things that may seem great but don't really make us feel in the right place is not worth it. I'm sure you'd make a great teacher having the passion in your heart to teach kids and appreciate there presences. I hope it all goes well for you and I wish you the best in your life. ❤️
I’ll be honest… ide rather burn society to the ground then pay society to fix a problem that society created…
@VanillaSalt
Sadly we are all part of that society, we can only do so much to teach and affect. A lot of society are followers not leaders and the leaders of today are not concerned with our societal issues but the ones outside of our society and how to engage survival for society. The rest is on our laps and to many play with life as if the things that mattered most was our needs above the value of others but yet we cannot live without others. Right now the world is alone living mentally without others. This is why sites like gag, reddit, Quora exist. We are searching for that unselfish connection that tells us we are not alone and want to understand, want to grow, want to relate, and want to express or help others.
The only price being payed onto others is their own lives. They are already paying for the problem with who they are. No need to burn it, they already are.
I’m lucky I won’t live long enough to see it end I used to think but… wow… we’ve come a long way in a few short years.
I also think a lot of what’s seen is misinformation by the people with a purpose. If I’m honest for a minute sure the women I’ve dated are trash my mother was trash every woman in my life’s been trash… but I haven’t seen this 6’ tall 6 figure 6 pack searching women I’m told permeate the gender. Sure these are qualities I see but I think women look for 1 of these traits and call it compromise but the issue seems to be looking at these things at all. If your physically attracted enough to talk to them then it could work. And men see this overall view and think it’s everyone especially for people like me that work 6-6 6 days a week graveyard shift. My dating habits are… sparse. Usually limited to online. We need to cut online and internet out of the picture. Places like this are rarely good debates but name calling and bullying.
No thanks. I was married and I will never do that again. Young people won't listen so they will have to go and try it out themselves but they will eventually realize that marriage is a bad bargain for males.
Go and have sex but never ever commit to a women. It is a trap.
I agree to this. I’ve had nearly everything in a ltr ide have in marriage except I’m not punished for us not being together anymore. The idea of marriage has merit but is a pipe dream. Just the line until death do us part breaks the whole argument because it’s not true. Marriage should have consequences for leaving for any reason. It should not have an easy out. Your partner abused you? Police fix his or her ass and then divorce is the answer. They cheated? Are y’all still solid parents? Do the bills still get paid? Are they still there at night? Are you their primary? Divorce shouldn’t be the answer 53% of the time.
@VanillaSalt But cheating IS divorce. You're leaving your spouse. You're breaking your vows right then and there.
Cheating breaks the social contract… it don’t end it.
@VanillaSalt Yes, but you're making it seem like it's nbd, and people who have been cheated on should not get divorced.
I’ve just come to expect women to cheat at this point and honestly… as long as I don’t miss out at all and I don’t find out which I will eventually then we’re good but when I find out your being cooked as I throw you violently out the door.
Choked*
Because I believe in love. <3
And yes, it's a high-risk gamble. But that's why I'm waiting for the right one.
Just don’t live your life waiting for them…
Thanks for the MHO.
Opinion
3Opinion
Stability. If you're married, there's a smaller chance of splitting up after having kids. It also means that if something were to happen to one of you, the other could see you in the hospital, and make medical decisions if you were unable to. It also plays a role in how much you pay in taxes, and if the unthinkable were to happen, life insurance is a thing. So it provides an extra safety net for both partners in case some sort of tragedy were to occur.
So… you get insurance incase of death but frown on insurance incase of shit partners? And I can support a family on my income without the tax breaks… know what I can’t afford? Suddenly paying $500/month for a woman that’s not with me anymore. You can sign paperwork stating someone is your benefactor to bypass inheritance laws. And you can get her in by saying your married or again soon paperwork giving her authority or him.
Less chance of splitting up when your married? I want the numbers and your source on that because 53% of marriage ends in divorce with 80% filed by women… if it was men then I could live with it because I can control myself. I cannot control others decisions though. So as long as there’s profit to be made in marriage and women have an automatic out with nearly a guarantee of payday then nope nope nope.
It shows a great level of trust and commitment to your partner to commit to someone like that. It's also usually very culturally and religiously motivated. My husband wouldn't be able to be on my health insurance if we weren't that then there are the financial benefits of being married.
Due to this climate and atmosphere,, I’m a tad hopefully to find a partner who wants commitment and marriage. I’m hopefully that a mate still believes in the concept of marriage. I’m on the fence about getting married in this day and time
Can you tell me the benefit to men for getting married? Women never answer.
The benefit of getting married as a man is a long term relationship and contract between that woman , you , and God. It’s about having a God sent companionship partner. The Bible clearly speaks about man and woman shouldn’t be alone. Marriage is to introduce a family in and develop a bond. The issue to many men don’t follow God , not in church , and don’t want commitment including one partner they can spend the rest of their lives with.
Hold up lady. I have 4 sexual partners across more than 10 years of sexual activity. All but one were in LTRs and all ended in cheating in one form or another against me. Also based off statistics 53% of marriage ends in divorce and of these divorces 80% are filed by women…
Perhaps you’d like to reword your comment.
All I saw was I’m different date me… yet here I am offering everything marriage offers and you say no because I don’t sign a paper. Marriage WAS between men and woman and god now it’s man and woman and god and government… god don’t demand alimony when divorce happens. I get everything from a LTR I would with marriage except the state has no say. Furthermore you point out many men don’t follow god as though women DO follow god. I don’t appreciate the implication.
I don’t do church and I don’t believe in god himself but I hold a deep respect for the words in his book. The stories if not entertaining teach great moral lessons however marriage used to be permanent and mean something. Now the vows are nothing but works and divorce isn’t even my choice it’s hers. So no I will never marry any women perfect and vouched for to my face by god or otherwise.
Also the Bible says women serve their men. I bet you don’t serve. I bet there’s many things in the Bible you don’t follow like I bet your not a virgin… your picking which rules to apply and when. Your no more a godly woman then I am a godly man.
No traditional marriages are rare and non existent because God isn’t involved anymore in a lot. Men have become incels, MGTOW, and red pill.. like I said women like me are better off alone.. dealing with men of today : NO. How I live and how I lived is my business. The kind of relationship I have with God is private and my business. Please have a nice day.
@kc_4308. Okay... I'm not going to jump to conclusions this time, since I made that mistake previously and I apologize. I'm just going to simply ask you a question.
Why is it that you said you were married before, and now you're saying you have never been married? Please explain.
Interesting. Okay; thanks for explaining.
That explains it! She’ll collect financial aid from the ex so she don’t need to be married anymore… that’s all men are to women insurance. This is why I won’t marry.
My ex husband cheated on me @VanillaSalt and than he turned around and cheated on his second wife he’s still married too. You are very toxic and incel
Congrats I’ve had 3 like him their not paying for my god damn life so your point?
You: “Do you see me blaming men?”
Also you: “many men don’t follow god… and don’t want commitment” true but failing to call out women.
Also you: “men have become incels, MGTOW, and redpill.”
Also you say god this god that but arnt you the one throwing a monkey wrench into his master plan? He said go forth and procreate. Your not procreating and I bet your not a nun expected to a vow of chastity. I hate when people lean on morality only when it suits them… I’m sure you could have a good man that works hard if you lowered your standards but you won’t and therefore your undeserving of any sympathy. Go pray to god he’ll deliver upon your unworthy ass a fine man… or at least the insight to fix your selfish way of thinking.
@VanillaSalt No; no one is forced by God to have children. You're taking that verse out of context. She doesn't deserve to be attacked based on whether she has kids or not. That's uncalled for. Please stick to the main subject.
Well, I don't think you need to call him names, either. And I think we're all bitter in some way or another. Like you said, the dating scene is really messed up in this day and age. It's not unexpected that people will have strong negative feelings surrounding the subject.
@Jamie05rhs the whole bibles basically about perception depending on the branch of the church your with… and no one is forced to do anything because god said freewill and that shit. Furthermore do you think god intended for us to be single? Yes or no… And I attacked her for her hypocritical comments not her choice of celibacy.
@VanillaSalt No; God did not intend us to be single. But you specifically brought up the issue of children, so that is what I was responding to.
Calling him bitter and toxic is a small fraction of what I think he is and I’m being nice by saying that- the matter of the point women need to avoid men like him ASAP. No sound woman wants to deal with a man like that. I didn’t call him a disrespectful name as in in too classy for that
Jamie I didn’t contribute to the dating world and how it is - I don’t want a toxic or bitter man nowadays men don’t know how to talk to women without being respectful they have to call women b’s like he did - I wonder how he talks to his mom and sisters if he has any. How does he address them when he talks to the. ..
I would rather get married and have kids and lifetime companion than be in a live in relationship. I am a traditional girl at heart. I want to have my own husband and my lovely babiess. My children to get the love of their father and me getting the love of my husband. Lifelong companionship is what I need.
I don't anymore to be fair. I don't see anything but it as an expensive competition of "a perfect day" that will never be lived up to and is a waste of money.
Lol. Marriage isn't a day.
No. That isn't the concept of marriage at all. Where are you learning these things? Lol
I get what your saying snake. After the wedding day or a short “it’s new” phase nobody tried anymore.
@VanillaSalt They don't try because they're selfish and lazy. And they use their religion as a crutch. "He she can't divorce me because it's against the Bible. So I can treat them in whatever shitty way I want to."
@VanillaSalt literally. not even that, but it doesn't change many relationships.
literally all it then has it the "split" when the divorce comes, where I can already hear every incel rising up to scream "but its sexist and the woman gets it all" kind of attitude.
Its literally a document that is not even "respected" or really has a place anymore due to the many different relationships people now have.
Because I want to love and be loved. Because I want to reproduce, and have my kids be functional happy people. My options are to try to be happy, or accept that I never will be. If I were ready to just give up on my dreams I'd kill myself right now.
Ultimately, an LTR is not commitment to most women. They will demand marriage and if you don't they will leave you.
As they should.
@kc_4308 Will all due respect... If I may ask:
Why did you do it that way the first time? Without getting married? Just like the blue opinion owner here just described? Would you say that you consider it a mistake, and you were just young and naive?
@kc_4308 Okay; fair enough. But, from what I'm hearing, aren't you and the opinion owner on the same page? Aren't you both saying the same thing?
Also, I'm just curious: what did you dislike about the laws and regulations in your state?
Kc… how can you bitch about marriage laws then when a man wants you for marriage but refuses to marry because of laws refuse him?
The ritual commitment.
It’s nice.
There’s a difference between a cultural marriage and lawful marriage. They’re basically completely separate things to be considered independently.
LTR is a cultural marriage, most consider marriage signing the government papers today.
I’m separating an LTR from asking someone to marry you and having a ceremony but not signing any government papers.
That’s you. But if you ask a woman to marry you she’s going to assume signed papers and everything.
Obviously you stipulate what you mean when you have a conversation about it.
It doesn’t matter what they assume.
So I can have someone by my side and a partner I can have sex with etc
To have someone keep me company
Is that all it is? I got friends and family. If you just don’t wanna be alone get a pet, a hobby, a life.
I don’t mean that as rude at all. I’m just saying how can you expect anything amazing that lasts with such weak reasoning.
Wasn't going to bore you with details and didn't care for a response to it cause it's my reason keyword my. lol
Then… if not giving a full answer why answer? Again you just half assed something you CHOSE to get involved in.
We're dming eachother thought I'd answer
It’s a highly encouraged practice in my religion.
@SpiderManFan2002 I think your comment is revealing. I think a lot of people do things just because their religion tells them to.
I'm a Christian, so even though we don't share the same religion, we do share a lot of the same values surrounding marriage and family. So I have a lot of respect for your culture. (Minus the extremist elements such as the Taliban, who I do not respect. But we don't need to go there right now, because it's beside the point of the topic at hand.)
However, I don't want to marry a girl just because she's a Christian. That's not enough for me. Because that's just her religion. But what does she REALLY believe in her heart? That's what matters. Is she getting married because culture and religion tells her to? Or is she getting married because she truly believes in love and she truly wants to share her life with a man? You need to examine someone's soul to find the answers to these questions.
@Jamie05rhs Aha thanks for the reply bro🙈☺️
Okay so firstly culture and religion are not the same thing, I know you had no malice intent behind confusing the two, and it seems like I’m nitpicking here, but let me explain. It can be so dangerous to confuse religion with culture sometimes because when you confuse the two culture often ends up diluting religion- that is when people can open the door for extremism mixing culture with religion to suit their own narrative.
Secondly I agree with you, a dude being Muslim is something so important to me, but it isn’t the only thing I have on my checklist for marriage lol. As for why I solely said religion, is because my religion doesn’t just say: “marriage is my Sunnah” and that’s it, even after we’re married Islam guides us on how to be the best we can be to each other, and you may say- well wouldn’t you do that anyway? Sure, but marriage isn’t always sunshine and rainbows- you will face times of hardship together, you will get mad at your spouse sometimes, you will get into conflict sometimes- and when those things happen, and emotions take over Islam reminds us, helps us get through that and brings us back down to Earth if that makes sense.
It’s not enough for me, that he just calls himself Muslim. He needs to love me, and I need to love him- obviously I could go a lot deeper too lol, but there’s some things I do prefer to keep to myself too, another reason why my original opinion was so short lol
@SpiderManFan2002 Yes- you are right. Culture is not the same as religion. I apologize.
What does Sunnah mean?
A Sunnah can be a religious ruling that is recommended, a textual source of Islam, or (in the context I used it in, in my previous reply) the way of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and if you want to read about it in more detail I recommend this article: aboutislam.net/.../
Thanks.
So it's like a calling?
I don’t…
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