Why don't men court women anymore?

[Courtalicious]

Why don't men court women anymore? Its always Netflix and chill and no fancy dates or expensive meals? Is it because women give it up too easy? there's no wooing anymore! :(

[Anonymous]

Because there is some truth to the idea that nice guys finish last. I'll tell you about my experiences but understand that I'm neither bragging, nor am I bitter about any of it. I think that our culture is a bit fucked up today actually and I think guys act that way because of the way many women act.

When I was younger I was very shy, especially with women. I focused on improving myself and building my confidence in this area. Eventually I gained confidence and started going on a lot of dates. I was a respectful guy. Not the "nice guy" who fakes being nice to get something out of a woman, I genuinely had romantic ideas of how it was "supposed to be". I was very naive.

I'd go on dates with women and I'd be in no rush to sleep with her. I'd look to get to know her well. Often the girls would complain about the guys you're complaining about, guys who "only want one thing", and I genuinely wasn't that guy. I just wanted a nice girlfriend. They'd often say that they wanted to take it slow or they'd say they never sleep with a guy outside of a comitted relationship and I'd respect that. In fact it would make me like them more because I thought that meant she was a decent girl.

But what always used to happen is that even though things seemed to be going very well, we were going on a lot of dates, texting all the time, sometimes kissing, she seemed interested - they kept on saying "listen, I think we should just be friends". When I liked a girl like that I didn't talk to any others. Again I respected that, if she didn't want it she didn't want it, whatever, plenty of fish in the sea and all that.

But then I noticed that they always ended up with some other guy pretty quickly, I mean a day or two afterwards. Then I realised that they must have been dating these other guys too at the same time. Then sometimes I'd find out that while we'd been dating, she'd met some guy at a party one night or something, got drunk, slept with him the same night they met, and chose to be with him instead.

This was so confusing to me because it was the complete opposite to what they said they wanted, and I thought things were going great. I lost count of how many times this happened. One day it happened again and I asked the girl why she thinks this kept on happening to me, and she said she chose the other guy simply because he was "more aggressive" in pursuing her so they ended up having sex and she fell for him.

Then I decided that I'd become more like them. I became more sexually aggressive. I didn't become an asshole and start mistreating them or lying to them but I did drop the naive ideas about trying to be a perfect gentleman to "woo" a woman and instead just became a lot more forward. I'd try to sleep with them sooner instead within the first 2-3 dates, flirt more, be more sexual in general.

Often they'd react in a bit of a negative way, and say things like "OMG what kind of girl do you think I am" and all that stuff. Yet, I started getting laid. Some of them might reject me outright I never went on loads of dates with a girl then got friend-zoned while she chose another guy anymore.

So that's why I stopped acting like that and became more like those guys. Because women are more likely to reward the guy who is all "netflix and chill" while the guy who takes her on fancy dates and expensive meals ends up with nothing but an empty wallet and his dick in his hand, while she's in bed with a guy who didn't do any of that. If women wouldn't do that so often less guys would act that way, but it's like women say to guys that they "should" woo a woman - why? There's nothing in it for them. Others would say "well the point of being nice is not expecting anything in return" - but again, why would a guy do that if it doesn't benefit him at all? Just because girls like the idea of it? There's no reward for being that guy today.

[anon1903]

its okay you changed your ways, but on the behalf of some shy women here speaking:

We'd love the older you more!

[Opinion Owner]

@anon1903

I dated shy women, they did the exact same thing. Maybe you'rea rare exception but most women it seems say they want one thing and go for something else. I think often maybe they just don't know any better.

[anon1903]

you're right, women tend to change their preferences more often than a man does. Heck, they've higher standards.

All talks aside, I personally like genuine guys - whether jerk or nice.

[Opinion Owner]

@anon1903

But even then I think those standards are bullshit most of the time. Things that sound good in their heads but they don't really prefer in real life. Every single one of those girls I mentioned if they were here would say the same thing you're saying, in fact most of them did say these things to me. Yet they did what they did.

For example people here often talk about who pays for the first date. People get into arguments over it. Guys especially get mad because they think its a double standard which it kind of is. Many women say "the guy should pay for the first date and if he doesn't I'll only see him as a friend". I find it funny because when I was the guy paying for the dates, being a gentleman, it was the opposite. They saw me as a friend. When I stopped that I stopped takibg them on these dates, sometimes I'd meet them in a club and go home with them that night. Other times maybe we'd go for a drink one night in a bar, we'd end up taking turns buying cheap drinks, then on the second date we'd end up going to each others houses and having sex. While there were probably guys like I was before, trying to do exactly what those girls say guys should do and getting nowhere with her.

I don't think that girls are lying intentionally when they say these things but there's a clear difference between their words and behaviour, and thats why I dont trust it. Also why I laugh at that stuff.

[anon1903]

yes, that's very true. Their should be no such conditions on first date. Both can do fifty fifty in paying.

About what you said about girls isn't entirely wrong either, but what guys don't understand that "opening doors", "buying flowers" and "paying on dates" is perceived as "being nice" when in fact you're not. Girls like me love you for who you are, not how much cash and penis size you've. There's no need to do "things to impress" , if we're by your side, it probably means we're INTERESTED.

[Opinion Owner]

@anon1903

Yeah its a huge double standard from women who obsess over being equal in all other areas, who somehow become "traditional" only when it comes t men buying them shit. But for me what makes me laugh is the arrogance of the women who say "if a guy doesn't pay for my dates he isn't getting laid", knowing that its bullshit and that the ones I did get laid with I didn't do that. And the guys who get fooled by it, who complain tht they "have to" do those things when clearly they don't. If only they weren't so naive.

I get what you're saying about that. Sometimes guys are doing it in a genuine way, other times they're only doing it precisely because they think it will get them laid. I always avoided anything that could be considered kiss ass or manipulative behaviour. I mean these were girls who I went on maybe 4-5 dates with so they knew I wasn't that kind of guy. Still, it always worked out better for me when I did the opposite.

I do think that as a woman you should be very careful, you should take things slow. That's the smart option. Many women I guess are ruled by their emotions so they might think that way logically, but then once thye meet a guy and he somehow gives her a strong emotional response all that goes out the window. I think also when girls sleep with a guy they get more attached to him so maybe thats why that happened. But again I think the smart option there is to realise thay and if/when that happens make sure not to let emotions cloud your judgement.

[anon1903]

aye, I will keep that in mind.

[Truthatanycost]

The experiences you wrote reminded me of something...

Arguably a lot of women only date men that need to 'warm them up'. In other words, when they are really attracted to a guy, do you think they still feel the need to be sitting around at some expensive restaurant with him?

I think dating is for the nice guys that the women don't find as attractive so they need to prove their worth, warm them up, and pay for stuff to convince the girl he's attractive.

I've met women that wanted to be with me where ever, but those same women had been dating nice guys that were courting them. I even remember one girl that said she wanted me in her bed... was the same girl telling me about a nice guy she'd been on a whole lot of dates with. I asked her how it was going and she said he was a complete gentleman. Pulling out chairs and paying for all of the food.

I made a joke about how she probably gave the guy a friendly hug and a kiss on the cheek at the end of the dates, and she went all quiet. Then she said ''how did you know that?''

So I think dating is for simps. To other guys reading this, do you think a girl feels the need to go on a date with a guy she is so hot for, she can't keep her hands of him? or will she skip the date...

[Opinion Owner]

@Truthatanycost

Yeah I've been on both sides of that and have experienced the exact same thing which is what I was getting at here.

In the redpill community they talk about "alpha fucks beta bucks". PUAs talk about "lover" vs "provider" which is the same thing. The idea that women have sex with certain guys quickly/casually (not to say that they wouldn't want relationships with these guys which they would if the guy wanted it) guys they're really attracted to with none of those requirements, but then go on lots of dates and have the guy pay for things and make him wait. They're attracted to one guy based on emotions/sexual attraction, and the other less so but they want a guy who will provide for them and the other guy maybe isn't as much of a stable boyfriend as they'd like.

Many guys don't get this, and the girls often don' t either. Its not a conscious thing, thats why when you made the comment about her kissing the guy on the cheek at the end of the date she asked "how do you know that?"

Men and women also "use" each other for different things. Men use women for sex, women use men for time and money. So for a woman in this situation magine a guy has sex with you, then goes to dinner with some other girl. That would piss most women off right? For a guy flip it around - you take her on a lot of nice dates and she goes and has sex with another guy who doesn't. That's how it goes.

[anon1903]

@Truthatanycost I do not think women are demanding to guys we naturally find attractive. Come to think of paying for dates, I've myself paid for dates just because I thought the guy was a real catch (lol, he was just looking for a friend), so again I don't think generalization will help here. Not all women are gold diggers or free loaders, don't take it personally but many guys have already brought this to my notice.

You need to acknowledge the fact that women "has to" find you physically attractive first or their should be at least chemistry in the air if you know what I mean.

Because it'll take more efforts to get her on the next date (or to your place) if she's just with you because she thought you were interesting. Really, she just wants to get to know you better, in this scenerio its the guy's problem he already likes her and YES for inviting her I must say he HAS TO PAY.

[Opinion Owner]

@anon1903

Often I don't think that it's entirely to do with physical attraction. I think that women are more attracted to certain behaviours in a man than to his appearance. For men, I'd say that attraction to women is about 70% physical, 30% behaviour. For women I'd say it's probably the opposite: 70% behaviour, 30% physical. So I'm not saying that looks don't matter at all, of course they do, but I'd say that they matter less for a man in general.

By behaviour I'm also not simply talking about whether the guy is "nice". There are guys who are typical "nice guys", who are very good looking, tall, in shape, have good jobs etc. Who struggle with women. And there are guys who have none of that who do well with women. I've known plenty of each.

I think that it's mainly the behaviour which determines the way she treats the guy, which "category" she puts him into. Whether she feels that "chemistry" with him or not. Like for me I didn't change my looks really, I only changed my behaviour and it really changed the way things went for me. I'm also not amazingly good looking, tall, financially well-off etc.

[anon1903]

I guess that could be true too😅

But really, if I'm interested in dating a guy, I pay for the date. Cause I think its "me" who's taking him out so if he's a good time, it should be down on me.

As for behavior, yeah I think that's a more important characteristic. But please hear me out, we FIRST OF ALL need to be physically attracted, that's also true. Otherwise we go on freeloading as mentioned above. We do rate behaviour but we'll only watch a guy we find physically attractive.

There's a myTake about this. That guys have lower standards and check out whoever they want. Women have a little higher standards, so I think they should at least find you "good looking".

In your case, those women might be knowing you in person or you're admirable as in personality.

[Truthatanycost]

@anon1903 You said ' Not all women are gold diggers or free loaders, don't take it personally' However enough are that way to make it a waste of time. This is why many will not court, and personally why I no longer date either.

However, your point about them having to find a guy attractive first... I've had the opposite experience more times than I can remember. I've worked with women that showed zero interest until either, they noticed I was interested, or overheard me talking about something out of the ordinary. After that they were in full interest mode, both verbally and physically (sometimes).

I met a woman that showed zero interest... but after noticing I was looking at her she approached me, asked me out, chased me etc. Then started to show physical attraction. Before she noticed me looking... nothing. Not a word, not a look.

[anon1903]

I see your point

[ShadowofRegret]

And risk being dragged off in handcuffs? I think not, women these days are a bit too eager to get guys thrown in prison for the crime of talking to them.

[ShadowofRegret]

I meant to say "most" women, my apologies.

[ShadowofRegret]

For those who disagree, giving me down votes will not change anything.

[thegirlfromthething]

Fancy dates and expensive meals aren’t an option for some guys, so it’s not fair to always expect to be courted with those, but I do think Netflix is a pretty lazy “date” for a guy to plan (Can you even call that planning?). Guys and girls are content to put less effort into their relationships now because they can take each other for granted. They have apps and cities full of young, bored people to satisfy their immediate needs and partners are disposable. Why spend hundreds of dollars and many hours on one person when someone else will show up at your apartment in twenty minutes, watch Netflix for thirty minutes, and then have sex with you? Men and women are equally responsible for this; men stopped trying as hard to court women and women accepted it.

[WannaPleaseMaGirl]

I try and do $80 meals and i blow about $9k a month on food and activities for fun. But ultimately she still wants to stay home and chill and netflix and chill. What can i say. Girls want different things now but yea the adventure is always admired

[thegirlfromthething]

@WannaPleaseMaGirl It sounds like you’re talking about your actual girlfriend, which is great if that works for you two, but I think the asker is talking about the phase before the exclusive relationship. She’s still getting to know the guy and she expects him to impress her with nights out and expensive things. I’m saying that if two people are still in that phase and the guy is wooing the girl, he should come up with something besides Netflix because that takes basically no thought or effort in a time when he’s supposed to be showing her that he’s a romantic and she’s special to him.

[WannaPleaseMaGirl]

Yea that's how it was before. Camping trips all you could eat at fancy restaurants. Museums etc

[ghostqueen]

Hook up culture became normalized and it's the easier and cheaper option.

[CherryRoseChampange]

Lol the guys I've dated and the guy I'm dating have courted me. My boyfriend still does. If he hasn't in a while she just forgot or something lol. Normally if I say we should have a date night we'll set it up together do court each other. I guess it just depends on the men you allow yourself to engage with?

[CherryRoseChampange]

*he *and court

[MzAsh]

I’ve written an article about this: damesthatknow.com/.../

Simply put: women let them get away with it. All ladies have to do is put their foot down and command better treatment.

Trust me, you’ll get it. Assuming he’s worth it.

[shimmeryns]

It seems like they dont anymore these days? Im guessing how people meet, through dating apps and they never really want anything serious. Just something casual, hookup, ONS.

Glad I had all those courting back in my dating days. I feel the dating scene now quiet messed up.

[jennifer_bloom]

These days men aren't willing to marry for sex anymore and some will not marry for children either. Some also do not marry for love anymore either - they marry for money or convenience and when those run out they divorce.

[DevilsAdvocator]

I think you're thinking about mostly women with that second sentence.

[tuvwxyz]

"They marry for money or convenience" - this is traditionally what marriages were used for, but I imagine many haven't studied history, and simply fantasize on Disney-like Hallmark movie fantasies of emotional gratification...

What kind of food, entertainment they'll have at their wedding is far prioritized at nearly every weeding I've been to, over tireless research to understand the history, and meaning of marriage, in effort to make the union as likely to succeed as possible by understanding it (i. e. all the "boring" non-entertainment stuff that involves hard work, discipline, sacrifice far more often, in my experience, gets pushed aside, often of virtually no importance beyond mindless ritual (empty words at a ceremony people can tear-up to), then wonder why relationships have so many issues.

Women often are as guilty as men of taking lightly relationships as a form of entertainment, satisfaction, or fulfillment, as I've met few who truly do everything they can to make them work... when you think of a wedding - what is your highest priority (if you say anything other than music, entertainment, clothes, etc., such as studying, preparation, discipline; setting in place fundamentals for long-term success, you're extremely rare)

[AwesomeCookie]

@Courtalicious they do, maybe it's just the men you're running into?

[Barrabus_the_Free]

There are far too many people in this world that either never took Economics in high school or college, or didn't pay attention because they were too busy trying to get laid or find a drug dealer so they could get high later.

One of the first things you learn in Econ is the Principles of Economics. One of which is "People respond to incentives".

So basically, there is no (positive) incentive for men to date, 'woo', marry, or have any kind of relationshit any more. A punishment or negative consequence is form of incentive. It's incentivizing a person to *NOT* do a certain thing. And there are PLENTY of those.

A man's life can be destroyed at any second, even decades later, on nothing more than a woman's word. What incentive does he have to interact with them, if thirty years later she can say that he said/did something she didn't like, and even with no witnesses, no proof, NOTHING, his life is ruined?

You date a woman now. Spend a bunch of time and money on her. Fuck a few times. Catch her fucking someone else. Dump her ass. A week later, the cops are knocking on the door because she says you raped her. The risk is decades in prison, with all the violence and bad shit that goes along with that, and what is the reward? Some sex. And it probably isn't even good sex, since most women are inept at it. They think all they have to do is have a 'gina and show up. Just like dating...

Guys are starting to figure out that if she's attracted to you, you don't have to spend any money to fuck her, hang out, etc. And they're also catching on that they will be spending lots of money on an expensive date, which she will probably spend most of on her phone, only to get a peck on the cheek at the end, or the dreaded handshake, and as soon as he is out of sight, she's calling a thug over to fuck her senseless, which she arranged during the date. And when the regular guy thinks after several dates it should be moving up a notch, cupcake will dump his ass and move on to the next sucker as the regular guy is just for paying for stuff, not for fucking. So lots of regular guys are wondering why spend a ton of money on a cupcake when some other guy is going to fuck her after the date? If Thuggy McDrugdealer doesn't have to pay for it, a lot of regular guys have decided that they aren't going to pay for it either.

Incentive. There is none.

If she's not willing to Netflix and chill, and fuck by the second time of doing that, you might as well stop talking to her. It's not going anywhere. And since it's not going anywhere, every second you interact with her is a huge risk.

[Sixgun77]

There seems to be a misconception that courting has to be expensive. It doesn't. It's not about expensive dinners. It's about genuine desire to get to know someone, the little gestures y'all make, and actual interest in the possibility of something real and lasting.
Our first date was early evening mini golf, followed by sitting and talking in my favorite dive bar until they closed.
The next few dates were similar. Dive bars, diners, playing pool, seeing a band play. Lots of conversation, opening doors for her, her taking my arm while we walked, pulling her chair out, that kind of stuff.
The was LOTS of conversation, we genuinely enjoyed each other's company. She didn't want to get pumped and dumped so she insisted on taking it slow. She started coming over to my place for dinner, and started feeling safe with me, and then things eventually got physical.
A year and several months later and we're still together, talking about moving in together at some point. Not bad for 2 people who met on plenty of fish.
People looking for something long term will court and woo. People looking for hookups aren't going to go for that. There's your answer.

[Anonymous]

"Is it because women give it up too easy?"
It would sooner be they don't give it up easy than too easily.
Without incentive, benefit, reward, etc, they aren't going to want to do any of that stuff. It's a bad financial but more importantly mental and emotional investment; largely a waste of time and it drains the spirit. I don't want to be valued for what I do or my money or status or anything along those lines. So it doesn't make sense to me to woo girls with fanciness, we don't actually want the girls that appreciate that the most.

It's like, why don't I invite girls to come kicking puppies with me?
1. I wouldn't enjoy that.
2. I wouldn't want someone who enjoys that.

The girl that will just hangout with you without the frills and fanciness doing something you both actually enjoy rather than just eating is a keeper; a much better investment.

Also I think fancy date and expensive meals are just old hat. No one likes that shit. People now like comfort, relaxation, media and privacy as opposed to the effort, pretense, cost and stress of a fancy date.

I think the problem is that we've actually convinced some men that what they want is actually relevant. So now they ask you to come and do the things they enjoy doing, something mutually appealing rather performing a chore that they feel pressured to do.

It's also super easy to get the dates you want: Ask a guy out the do that thing. If you're posing the question to him and he likes you in the slightest then he's going to say yes. He'll appreciate the sentiment and he'll appreciate that kind of date far more when you can attach it to a meaningful sentiment. Just keep the fact that you actually just wanted this date for yourself on the down-low.

[intjgamer]

You already answered your own question. It's expensive.

Imagine being on a budget then going on multiple expensive dates for a girl who becomes your girlfriend. Then bam you stop taking her out on these expensive meal tickets as often and she starts saying "we don't go out anymore "

To me it's like setting the bar for the relationship. I'm not saying I Netflix and chill. Never actually done that. But I'm also not gonna go out and treat a girl to $50-$100 dinners all the time. I'd rather cook the meal for her myself and show her my skills as a homemaker male.

[errorgoodnameunfound]

"I'm a girl! I have boobs and vagina! Doesn't that make me special enough for free food?" "Hey my name is Steve. Uh... er... I really like your eyes. Maybe you want to catch a movie later?" " *ew what a nerd* uh... sorry Steve I'm busy later" *walks away quickly" *calls gal friend later to complain more about how guys never ask her out anymore*

[ladsin]

Oh a pretty girl, I’m going to go ask her out.

RAPIST!
But why won’t guys ask me out?

[JSmuve]

Can we caption this picture? Here's mine
First panel: "Shit, there's a hot little bitty. Maybe she wants to go out with me. You never know."
Second panel: "Hold up bro... sexual harassment. Plus, I'm already kinda smashing that ass."

[Truthatanycost]

[ladsin]

@Truthatanycost yuh I liked that one too

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Because a lot women got so comfortable being treated like queens every time that when we take a break, "He's not taking care of me properly anymore" then posts it on social media demonizing men because society gives women pats on the back every time. It's only chivalry if they like it but sexist if they don't. Why don't you do it and see if you like it?

[Servus09]

There is no reason for men to court women. At one time, you needed the approval of the father and sometimes the whole family to court a girl you liked. Relationships were about investing time in each other and growing as people. Now it's considered sexist for a father to have this sort of control over his daughter. If the boy/man courting her is black and he doesn't approve it's also deemed racist. So women are just getting what they wanted. No boundaries and the opportunity to act like horny teenage boys.

This is what you women wanted.

[Ellie-V]

Things change honey. Why should a man court or woo? That’s just lazy on the woman’s part. If you want a dude to kiss your ass simply because he has a penis, well go find one. Those type of guys do exist don’t worry. If you live in a conservative area then they will be easy to spot 👍🏾

[gwail]

I don't think that's what she meant. I think she just meant lets go on a date. And lets stare in each others eyes over a pizza.

Guys will ask my number at the super market or at my work. But they only text me to come over to their place. I ask no lets go do something and they disappear

[Redstang88]

Men are sick of busting their ass for women that are playing bullshit games. We’re not going to waste our time and money when she’s got 10 other guys lined up fighting for her attention too.

[MzAsh]

A woman is always going to have those options. Doesn’t matter if she’s taken or married. It’s just the way it is.

[Redstang88]

@MzAsh Yeah I’m aware of that. It would just be nice sometimes if a girl would even pretend to show interest rather than keeping you and 10 other guys engaged in some bullshit competition

[MzAsh]

Girls do that. Women don’t.

[Redstang88]

@MzAsh Good point

[Truthatanycost]

@MzAsh Actually, that's not true. They only think they will always have those options because they take it for granted. Age is the equalizer. Some women have written articles about this.

[MzAsh]

We all age. But it doesn’t stop men from giving us attention.

[Truthatanycost]

@MzAsh It doesn't stop them from giving it... it's just that for most women as they age, they will have less options, and less attention. There will always be exceptions though. Even the studies showed this. One of many examples is ''20% of surveyed women sighted feeling invisible as most annoying about being 50+. ''

[Truthatanycost]

A lot of it is to do with the youth obsessed culture.

[bamesjond0069]

So im a good looking successful guy. I have no problems with girls. There are only two options that really make sense to me. Sit home in pjs and bang on tinder until a ho comes over. OR get up and search and search for a girl worth dating. Rn im getting to know two girls not even been on an official date yet. Im actually wooing them. Neither is a ho. One is a virgin and one i think only had one actual boyfriend. Both seem like they would make great moms and both treat me with respect. I could see myself with them. On the other hand a girl that would meet a dude for netflix and chill is not someone id see myself marrying. So id never put any effort into any girl like that no matter how hot she was. I just dont care what she thinks of me.

Unfortunately it sounds like guys may already view you as the second one.

[theharlequin]

Yes, that’s pretty much it. Most guys only do what they have to to get laid, and loads of girls are willing without all that time, effort, and expense.

Some of us guys still enjoy romance and the chase, but I’ve found that not many girls want it anymore.

[JSmuve]

So you're lamenting the fact that guys don't spend exorbitant amounts of money on you and give you free, expensive meals? Maybe it's because of that entitled attitude you've got there.

[InTimoreDei]

Courting very much still exists. Just not among your average college anti religion millennials. I courted the Lebanese girl I eventually married. Asked her father for permission to court... spent time at her house with her family... surpervised outings... then went on a few private dates. It is very old school but much more satisfying than hookup culture.

[rjroy3]

Female friend of mine got a free euro trip from her new guy as his way of courting her lol. Hard for me to think guys never do that. Not saying that's the norm, but there's obviously varying degrees of courtship.

Personally I'm not a fan of it and I don't do it. I'm fine with doing that stuff within a relationship, but making those grand gestures to get a girlfriend to me is just "sad" in a way, because on some level you're attempting to buy her love. You're buying her with your lifestyle.